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[Armybrat 40579]

Hope they can ramp up the transfer & training of those systems quicker than usual so the Ukes can get them in action ASAP.

[Schulz2.0 28666]

 

 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Can someone copy paste the Atlantic article from the tweet up thread please?

[Bateshorn 9826]

I gotta be honest.  I’m getting a little dubious of the wholeUS military industrial complex.  Sorta seems like they might have been bilking the shit outta the American taxpayer and not actually making stuff. 
 

Except the drone guys. Those guys fuck. 

[bolverk 29122]

28 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Can someone copy paste the Atlantic article from the tweet up thread please?

Stop Micromanaging the War in Ukraine
Not everything is under America’s control.

By Phillips Payson O’Brien

One of the biggest challenges that a superpower faces is figuring out what it can and cannot do. When you are a global hegemon, you might believe that you can micromanage wars, orchestrate foreign countries’ diplomatic relations and internal politics, and precisely calibrate how others perceive you. That tendency is evident in the American approach to Ukraine. Although the U.S. has provided Ukraine some strong diplomatic support and a significant amount of modern weaponry, it has done so with a catch. To avoid provoking Russia too much, it seems, the Biden administration has been very restrained in offering additional types of weaponry—and therefore additional military capabilities—to Ukraine. Until recently, the U.S. has given noticeably mixed signals about when or even whether NATO, the West’s preeminent military alliance, might accept Ukraine into its ranks.

The overall presumption seems to be that the U.S. can give Ukraine just enough help—without going too far. Lesser powers than the United States tend to make simpler calculations: Pick a side and do whatever you can to help it win.

The twists and turns at last week’s NATO summit in Vilnius, Lithuania, revealed American strategy making at its worst and best. The opening day could have been disastrous. The alliance’s official communiqué—which the U.S. presumably played a major role in shaping—said up front that Russia “is the most significant and direct threat to Allies’ security and to peace and stability in the Euro-Atlantic area.” Yet the statement included a word salad of qualifications and obfuscations about whether Ukraine—the country now actually at war with Russia, and thus protecting many NATO states—would be allowed into the alliance. Though the statement said “Ukraine’s future is in NATO,” it offered only the vaguest idea of when even the process bringing about that future might start. The key paragraph puzzlingly concluded that NATO “will be in a position to extend an invitation to Ukraine to join the Alliance when Allies agree and conditions are met.” So Ukraine seemed to be being offered a deeply conditional chance to receive an invitation to possibly join NATO sometime in the unknown future. The implication was: We view Ukraine as a partner, but only up to a point.

Ukrainian leaders were not happy. President Volodymyr Zelensky, who is usually extremely complimentary of the U.S. and NATO, publicly blasted the statement after its wording became known. Describing its language as “unprecedented” and “absurd,” he expressed the reasonable fear that NATO was leaving open a “window of opportunity” to bargain away Ukraine’s membership in future negotiations with Russia. The hostility and intensity of the Ukrainian reaction seemed (strangely) to take the Biden administration by surprise—so much so that, according to The Washington Post, U.S. officials considered striking back by further watering down the statement’s support for Ukraine. This would have been a catastrophic blunder.

Yet after the U.S. unnecessarily provoked the Ukrainians, who are fighting for their country’s existence, and then considered making things worse by punishing them, the administration pivoted sharply and, on the second day at Vilnius, provided far more reassurance. President Joe Biden himself clarified that he believed that Ukraine could get into NATO quickly once the current fighting was over, and the Ukrainian armed forces received pledges of extensive military support. By the end, not only did the alliance seem far more united about Ukraine’s status but Ukrainian leaders were much happier.

The summit offered an important lesson in what the U.S. should and, more important, should not do. American leaders, like their Soviet counterparts during the Cold War, frequently act as if they are in control of other countries and the course of events. During the Vietnam War, the U.S. did not trust the South Vietnamese to defeat the Communists and progressively took over more and more of the fighting until the war was essentially between North Vietnam and the United States. So when the U.S. lost the desire to sustain the conflict and started withdrawing in the late 1960s, the South Vietnamese state that it had infantilized over the previous decade was incapable of preserving its own independence. Both the U.S.S.R. and the U.S. made a similar error in Afghanistan.

America’s approach toward the war in Ukraine bespeaks some understanding of the limits of American power. The Biden administration, with seemingly strong bipartisan backing, has studiously avoided Americanizing the war by introducing U.S. combat forces into the fray. It has provided significant support for Ukraine with weapons, training, intelligence, and the like—but the Ukrainians are the ones fighting and dying. These limitations on U.S. involvement are a positive development, heralding a less intrusive form of U.S. intervention in future conflicts.

Still, the United States must also understand that it cannot dictate the course of the war. Some American decisions about which weapons to supply—or not—seem designed to constrain Ukraine’s options, and very much at times seem to be aimed at trying to direct a certain outcome for the war.

The U.S. has been providing Ukraine with systems that are powerful but have limited range: 155 mm howitzers, High Mobility Artillery Rocket System equipment, anti-radar missiles, armored fighting vehicles, and anti-aircraft systems. These are effective in a defensive war but provide little or no capacity to strike deep inside enemy (or enemy-controlled) territory. They would be of little use, for instance, in helping Ukraine liberate Russian-occupied Crimea. In response to Ukrainian requests for longer-range systems, the U.S. has either slow-walked them (as in the case of F-16 fighters) or declined to provide them (as is currently the case with Army Tactical Missile Systems).

This kind of carefully circumscribed support might make sense if the U.S. were also trying to broker a peace deal with Russia. Indeed, it has heightened Ukrainian fears that Washington sees control over Crimea or even other parts of occupied Ukraine as potential bargaining chips in future talks with Russia. In practice, America’s restraint has backfired. Ukraine has been forced to fight a longer and costlier war than it otherwise would have. Because they lacked the option of hitting strategic targets well behind Russian lines, Ukrainian military planners have opted this summer for a slow, deliberate, wastage campaign against entrenched Russian forces, in preparation for a direct counterassault in the future. European countries—particularly the United Kingdom, which has provided Storm Shadow cruise missiles—have been more supportive of extending the Ukrainian military’s range.

The U.S. approach has also backfired on the Biden administration by forcing it earlier this month to provide Ukraine with cluster munitions—something the White House surely wished it never would have had to do. But in its slow, grinding war, Ukraine has used up massive amounts of ammunition faster than anticipated. As stocks have run low, cluster munitions—which break into smaller pieces that heighten the risk of injuring children and other civilians—became perhaps the only ordnance available that could make a difference in the campaign against Russia.

The best thing the U.S. can do to end the war is give Ukrainians the support they need to push the Russian military out of their country. Even if Washington wanted to, it can’t force Ukraine to agree to a specific peace deal (such as handing over Crimea). If the U.S. cut back aid significantly, that would not necessarily make Ukraine give up. More likely it would lead to an even longer and bloodier war, because Ukraine would fight on, with the support of European states that believe more fervently than the U.S. does that Russia must be defeated.

The real choice the U.S. faces is whether to help the Ukrainian military win the war in the quickest, most efficient manner possible, with the smallest number of dead on each side. This would be both the wisest and the most humane outcome. But it would require an American recognition that the Ukrainians are the ones in combat, and that the U.S. cannot always be in control.

Phillips Payson O’Brien is a professor of strategic studies at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland. He is the author of How the War Was Won: Air-Sea Power and Allied Victory in World War II.
 

[F250 28587]

1 hour ago, Schulz2.0 said:

Don't worry guys, the Ukrainians are finally getting the tanks like they requested. Dude in the first tweet calls them Challenger 1 tanks. They're actually Chieftain tanks from the 1960s.

 

This article reminds me of that show Deadliest Warrior that did historical combat match-ups like a Samurai vs a Roman soldier except this is mid-twentieth century armor battles and it's real.

I really had no idea there was so much old war shit sitting around the world in storage.

[Schulz2.0 28666]

 

 

[Parliament 14033]

God dammit.

[Schulz2.0 28666]

2 minutes ago, F250 said:

This article reminds me of that show Deadliest Warrior that did historical combat match-ups like a Samurai vs a Roman soldier except this is mid-twentieth century armor battles and it's real.

I really had no idea there was so much old war shit sitting around the world in storage.

Sounds like Jordan is the one donating them. Probably getting some kind of deal to upgrade.

[Schulz2.0 28666]

 

[Laxtonto 11880]

28 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

22K killed is a huge number for just one location during this conflict. I knew it has been a meat grinder, but if Wagner lost 22k, how my regular RU army died along with them?

[F250 28587]

5 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

22K killed is a huge number for just one location during this conflict. I knew it has been a meat grinder, but if Wagner lost 22k, how my regular RU army died along with them?

Damn, that is the battle of Gettysburg level losses. I don't think either side had that many casualties in the invasion of Normandy.

 

 

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

Damn, that is the battle of Gettysburg level losses. I don't think either side had that many casualties in the invasion of Normandy.

 

 

To be fair I would expect at least this many casualties from an untrained, ill equipped, drunk, convict army thrown together at the last minute.

[956 Worldwide 34039]

On 7/17/2023 at 12:56 PM, 956 Worldwide said:

I suspect that Russia’s method of stopping grain shipments will involve missile attacks on ports and storage facilities as well as passive anti-shipping measures like mines. I don’t think they’d start sinking ships at sea or do a standoff if Turkey decided to run escorts (unlikely, IMO). I think it will just be used as an excuse to destroy infrastructure in Odesa. 

 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

Reports that the grain that Russia blew up was headed for China. 

[956 Worldwide 34039]

Russia used P-800 Onyx anti-ship missiles for the Odesa port attack. These are sea-skimming, supersonic weapons that would present serious difficulties for any air defense, even the most advanced. Russia is really seeking to destroy Odesa as a viable port and is demonstrating what it “held back” from doing under the BSGI. 

[KYHorn 16747]

Ukraine started using cluster munitions received from the USA.

This was reported by The Washington Post with reference to Ukrainian sources.

According to the newspaper, the ammunition was used against russian forces in the south-east of Ukraine, trying to destroy well-fortified russian positions that slowed down Ukraine's counteroffensive.

Edited July 20, 2023 by KYHorn

[KYHorn 16747]

 

[morehornsepower 855]

3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Russia used P-800 Onyx anti-ship missiles for the Odesa port attack. These are sea-skimming, supersonic weapons that would present serious difficulties for any air defense, even the most advanced. Russia is really seeking to destroy Odesa as a viable port and is demonstrating what it “held back” from doing under the BSGI. 

There is no military value to this.

  Terrorism, definition: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Once again, fuck russia.  Time for us to 'take off the gloves' as well.  I think the Moskva is getting lonely, for example.

[KYHorn 16747]

Probably another prime location for the cluster bombs, considering the density of troops 

 

[Schulz2.0 28666]

Russia reportedly hit the Chinese consulate in Odesa.

https://www.threads.net/t/Cu6pYsANkNG/?igshid=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

[AUS-97HORN 11563]

7 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

Russia reportedly hit the Chinese consulate in Odesa.

https://www.threads.net/t/Cu6pYsANkNG/?igshid=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

if true, their next international politics reaction will be very interesting.

we bombed their embassy in Serbia and they screamed to the high heavens and considering it killed 3 Chinese nationals, that was a fair response (although there was a report later that the Chinese were probably using the embassy to reroute Serbian communications, and was probably the actual reason it was bombed)

 

If they sit back and do nothing other than a sternly worded note and we dont hear about it again, it will be very telling about the Chinese true intentions.

[Schulz2.0 28666]

11 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

if true, their next international politics reaction will be very interesting.

we bombed their embassy in Serbia and they screamed to the high heavens and considering it killed 3 Chinese nationals, that was a fair response (although there was a report later that the Chinese were probably using the embassy to reroute Serbian communications, and was probably the actual reason it was bombed)

 

If they sit back and do nothing other than a sternly worded note and we dont hear about it again, it will be very telling about the Chinese true intentions.

The Guardian is reporting it now.

[atomheartbevo 89189]

32 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

If they sit back and do nothing other than a sternly worded note and we dont hear about it again, it will be very telling about the Chinese true intentions.

Russia is also fucking with grain shipments that were apparently intended for China.  They might be getting into the "finding out" stage pretty soon, not that China was shipping them replacement tanks or anything, but they were buying natural resources.

[Bevo 13442]

6 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Russia is also fucking with grain shipments that were apparently intended for China.  They might be getting into the "finding out" stage pretty soon, not that China was shipping them replacement tanks or anything, but they were buying natural resources.

What are they going to do next - piss off Hungary and Serbia?

[Gatorubet 29865]

1 hour ago, Schulz2.0 said:

Russia reportedly hit the Chinese consulate in Odesa.

https://www.threads.net/t/Cu6pYsANkNG/?igshid=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

 

[Nivek 16699]

13 hours ago, Bateshorn said:

I gotta be honest.  I’m getting a little dubious of the wholeUS military industrial complex.  Sorta seems like they might have been bilking the shit outta the American taxpayer and not actually making stuff. 
 

Except the drone guys. Those guys fuck. 

How so?

3 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

 

Shouldn't that be winnie the poo?

[Bevo 13442]

6 minutes ago, Nivek said:

How so?

Shouldn't that be winnie the poo?

Maybe have the Panda tagging Winnie.

[Macanudo 12855]

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

What are they going to do next - piss off Hungary and Serbia?

Worse.   Guyana.

[Nivek 16699]

7 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Maybe have the Panda tagging Winnie.

Winnie is Jinping.  

[Gatorubet 29865]

18 minutes ago, Nivek said:

How so?

Shouldn't that be winnie the poo?

[texasdago 7540]

Have a friend in Lviv right... sent some cool pics just hanging out at a sidewalk cafe.  Said the area is very milfy and that braless tanktops seem to be a patriotic statement in Ukraine.  He also visited Transinstria (sp?) which I found pretty fascinating/crazy.

[Orange&White 5506]

5 minutes ago, texasdago said:

Have a friend in Lviv right... sent some cool pics just hanging out at a sidewalk cafe.  Said the area is very milfy and that braless tanktops seem to be a patriotic statement in Ukraine.  He also visited Transinstria (sp?) which I found pretty fascinating/crazy.

I'm no detective, but I am going to assume a few things:

 

1. You are communicating with this friend via a mobile phone of some sort

2. Whatever phone this friend has nearly certainly possesses camera functionality

 

Given those two assumptions, I am having a hard time determining why you are not posting any photos.

 

Edited July 20, 2023 by Orange&White

[texasdago 7540]

Well, I can see two ladies sitting behind him in one picture... while attractive, I don't think the output will satisfy Surly's dirty minds.  

But here is a picture of a lovely car in Transnistria

[Macanudo 12855]

6 minutes ago, texasdago said:

Well, I can see two ladies sitting behind him in one picture... while attractive, I don't think the output will satisfy Surly's dirty minds.  

But here is a picture of a lovely car in Transnistria

Look at the headlights on this one!

[Bateshorn 9826]

15 minutes ago, texasdago said:

Well, I can see two ladies sitting behind him in one picture... while attractive, I don't think the output will satisfy Surly's dirty minds.  

But here is a picture of a lovely car in Transnistria

Didn;t @Brisketexan drive one of those shitboxes around Europe back in the day? As a 3 pedal addict, it's always been a low key bucket list to give it a go. 

Also, braless milfs is my wheel house, so have your friend try harder, mmmmmkay?

[Bateshorn 9826]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

How so?

Shouldn't that be winnie the poo?

I'm tired of giving stuff from the parts bin to the Ukrainians.  Let's crack out the good stuff and get some. 

[Schulz2.0 28666]

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jul/20/rising-grain-prices-russia-pullout-black-sea-deal-food-crisis-fears

 

[Schulz2.0 28666]

 

[Neonmoon 38126]

3 hours ago, Schulz2.0 said:

Russia reportedly hit the Chinese consulate in Odesa.

https://www.threads.net/t/Cu6pYsANkNG/?igshid=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==

Let's see the Chinese negotiate some peace around this you dumb motherfuckers. 

[MillerEP 30292]

 

[Schulz2.0 28666]

Pretty weak statement from China.

https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/xwfw_665399/s2510_665401/202307/t20230720_11116012.html

[Bevo 13442]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

Winnie is Jinping.  

I know I meant waiting in line behind the Giant Panda. Just thought it would add some secondary color to the scene.

[MillerEP 30292]

 

[MillerEP 30292]

 

[Neonmoon 38126]

Can we please gift Ukraine a few nuclear submarines? 

[MillerEP 30292]

 

[Schulz2.0 28666]

3 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Can we please gift Ukraine a few nuclear submarines? 

We don't have enough of ours that are operational to be giving any away. The shipyards are backed up.

[Neonmoon 38126]

3 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

We don't have enough of ours that are operational to be giving any away. The shipyards are backed up.

Is this a serious post?

[KYHorn 16747]

8 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

 

 

In the battles near #Krasnohorivka, a #Russian military man, Z-volunteer and author of the channel "Misha in Donbass", Mikhail Luchin, was eliminated. He became famous after being hacked by #Ukrainian hackers, who used the money he raised for drones for the Russian army to order dildos for him. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by KYHorn