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[statsman 5471]

Defense contractors self fund some R&D (IRAD, Independent R &D). As soon as it matures to feasibility with a possible application, and if the DoD is interested, the DoD will start to fund as well. If the DoD is not interested, the contractor is not allowed to sell to other nations without US permission. 
 

Edited October 12, 2023 by statsman

[Ghost of LL 15532]

37 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Hopefully this doesn't trigger @SydneyCarton but I have a question and no clue where else to put it...when it comes to weapons systems, do US taxpayers essentially pay for the R&D of those systems, then if they become commercially viable, the defense contractors reap all of the profits from those systems?

It depends.

Some weapons systems, such as the F-35, are developed from the outset in conjunction with international partners.  The United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Australia, Norway, Denmark, and Canada together contributes $4.4 billion towards development costs of the F-35.  The United Kingdom contributed 10% of the planned development costs as the sole Tier 1 partner.

Other weapons systems are developed by the likes of Boeing and Lockheed and are never picked up by any military, so it is the shareholders--and not the taxpayers--who are on the hook for that.  Lockheed's Skunkworks does a lot of that.  Some of what they learn gets incorporated into subsequent designs that are picked up by the military.  But plenty of it just goes in the trash.

And then there are other weapons systems for which there is a design competition.  The F-35 is another example.  Boeing also submitted a design in the Joint Strike Fighter design competition (the XF-32), but it ultimately wasn't chosen.  The taxpayers don't pay for that; Boeing bears all the risk there.

[statsman 5471]

8 minutes ago, Ghost of LL said:

It depends.

Some weapons systems, such as the F-35, are developed from the outset in conjunction with international partners.  The United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Australia, Norway, Denmark, and Canada together contributes $4.4 billion towards development costs of the F-35.  The United Kingdom contributed 10% of the planned development costs as the sole Tier 1 partner.

Other weapons systems are developed by the likes of Boeing and Lockheed and are never picked up by any military, so it is the shareholders--and not the taxpayers--who are on the hook for that.  Lockheed's Skunkworks does a lot of that.  Some of what they learn gets incorporated into subsequent designs that are picked up by the military.  But plenty of it just goes in the trash.

And then there are other weapons systems for which there is a design competition.  The F-35 is another example.  Boeing also submitted a design in the Joint Strike Fighter design competition (the XF-32), but it ultimately wasn't chosen.  The taxpayers don't pay for that; Boeing bears all the risk there.

The DoD provided some funding for the F-35 competition. Tens of millions at least. Not nearly enough to cover all the costs. 

[MissingInAction 25106]

42 minutes ago, BamaATL said:

Well, there is the unstated and incalculable benefit to the taxpayer, global stability and security.  I think we overall get our monies worth, despite our flaws.  

Yea, it's not like we have to worry about terrorists or anything. 

[Ghost of LL 15532]

15 minutes ago, statsman said:

The DoD provided some funding for the F-35 competition. Tens of millions at least. Not nearly enough to cover all the costs. 

Yeah--I didn't remember that, and thanks for clarifying.

I just remember that, as a BA shareholder, that was a hit.

[Parliament 14260]

F35 Shitbird thread is that way ->

I reported your post.  (jk)

[kevwun 15797]

The F-22 was a design contest also.

[Neonmoon 38129]

Competing under a neutral flag is bullshit. Either ban them or don’t you pussies 

[Dahobbs 17621]

2 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Not sure why you think this would trigger me. But in our delightfully fucked up system, yes, I think this is approximately how it works. Other posters here are the real experts and can illuminate both of us on the topic. 

I assume the benefits the US gets for Taxpayer dollars is to dictate what can be sold, to him, and when, and what is viable for sale around the world. 

That's a good quesiton, though, I'm excited for folks who know tons more to weigh in on it. 

 

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

It depends.

Some weapons systems, such as the F-35, are developed from the outset in conjunction with international partners.  The United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Australia, Norway, Denmark, and Canada together contributes $4.4 billion towards development costs of the F-35.  The United Kingdom contributed 10% of the planned development costs as the sole Tier 1 partner.

Other weapons systems are developed by the likes of Boeing and Lockheed and are never picked up by any military, so it is the shareholders--and not the taxpayers--who are on the hook for that.  Lockheed's Skunkworks does a lot of that.  Some of what they learn gets incorporated into subsequent designs that are picked up by the military.  But plenty of it just goes in the trash.

And then there are other weapons systems for which there is a design competition.  The F-35 is another example.  Boeing also submitted a design in the Joint Strike Fighter design competition (the XF-32), but it ultimately wasn't chosen.  The taxpayers don't pay for that; Boeing bears all the risk there.

It can get even more complicated. Sometimes the US funds the R&D and purchases the associated IP. In other cases the US funds portions of the work, but the contractor retains the IP subject to certain government restrictions. You even have programs that decouple the design phase from the production phase (and I believe this is how the Airforce's NGAD program is setup). There, the government solicits designs from various manufacturers. After a design is selected, the government then solicits manufacturing bids and may award manufacturing contracts to several different manufacturers, including competitors at the design phase. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Dahobbs

[Trey3216 15347]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

The DoD provided some funding for the F-35 competition. Tens of millions at least. Not nearly enough to cover all the costs. 

and tens of millions is puppynuts both the defense budget and the end cost of a produced F-35.  

[statsman 5471]

Yes. Giving Lockheed and Boeing a small portion of what is needed for the fly off just doesn’t tell those two “you’re in the competition”; it tells others that don’t get downselected and funded (Northrop) “you’re out”. (Yes, I know Northrop then teamed with Lockheed)

[atomheartbevo 89715]

4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

I assume the benefits the US gets for Taxpayer dollars is to dictate what can be sold, to him, and when, and what is viable for sale around the world. 
 

2 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

It can get even more complicated. Sometimes the US funds the R&D and purchases the associated IP. In other cases the US funds portions of the work, but the contractor retains the IP subject to certain government restrictions. You even have programs that decouple the design phase from the production phase (and I believe this is how the Airforce's NGAD program is setup). There, the government solicits designs from various manufacturers. After a design is selected, the government then solicits manufacturing bids and may award manufacturing contracts to several different manufacturers, including competitors at the design phase. 

Even if we chip in on R&D, if it becomes financially viable/profitable for the company outside of any contracts for the DOD, that means that the production lines will stay open longer, costs of future upgrades will be lower, it'll be easier to get spare parts or upgrades down the road.  And with some weapons systems, we actually keep the the production lines open, even if the pace is extremely so, so that we have spares or the potential for upgrades or replacements down the road or the chance of future customers (look at the Abrams and its potential replacement for instance).  We can easily shift people and lines to an upgraded system or a system that has its roots in the previous system, and there's not a loss of institutional knowledge.

Early on last year, I was looking at weapons systems that Russia was losing, and so many of them had had their production lines shut down many years ago, decades even, You just know that in Russia, when those production lines were shut down,  that either the machinery was re-tooled for something else, or was sold off (or even out of the country) or was sold for scrap.   That also means the people who were working on that either disperse or retire or whatever (Russians working on the production lines in the 1990s are going to remember shit if they had to try and restart production of some o those systems).

Hell, they are basically hand-building turbine engines for some of their tanks now, because the production lines shut down years ago and they don't have the machinery.  

[atomheartbevo 89715]

Remember her?  The amazing/brave woman who protested on-air in Russia?  She may have been poisoned in France.  Hopefully not.

 

Paris prosecutors have opened an investigation into the suspected poisoning of a Russian journalist who made headlines last year when she brandished an anti-Ukraine war slogan on state television.

Marina Ovsiannikova reportedly told police that she felt unwell when she opened the door to her Paris apartment Thursday and noticed a powder substance. Forensic police were sent to examine her home.

Paris-based Reporters Without Borders (RSF) secretary general Christophe Deloire reported on social media that the journalist was feeling better by the afternoon but was still under medical supervision.

The international non-profit was instrumental in getting the 44-year-old journalist and her 12-year-old daughter out of Russia late last year, when she fled in fear for her life.

[Schulz2.0 28960]

 

 

 

[Schulz2.0 28960]

 

 

[Dahobbs 17621]

11 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Even if we chip in on R&D, if it becomes financially viable/profitable for the company outside of any contracts for the DOD, that means that the production lines will stay open longer, costs of future upgrades will be lower, it'll be easier to get spare parts or upgrades down the road.  And with some weapons systems, we actually keep the the production lines open, even if the pace is extremely so, so that we have spares or the potential for upgrades or replacements down the road or the chance of future customers (look at the Abrams and its potential replacement for instance).  We can easily shift people and lines to an upgraded system or a system that has its roots in the previous system, and there's not a loss of institutional knowledge.

Yeah, this was the issue with the F-22. Congress said it couldn't be exported, so the lines sat dead until they were cannibalized for the F-35. 

[Schulz2.0 28960]

 

 

[BamaATL 16593]

29 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

 

I think it's potentially worse than that, which again is why we should be building munitions now, en masse. 

1.  Undeclared/non-shooting war with Russia ongoing right now - our Allies Ukraine/Nato

2.  Undeclared/non-shooting war with Iran/Hamas ongoing right now - our allies Israel

It's not much of a stretch to think either of these things could get out of hand, or worse both at the same time?  If China made a move during such a situation do we have the arms to deal with it?  Think that's worst case scenario, well not likely, because it's also possible the North Koreans would then move on the South, not to mention India could move on Pakistan.  

Bottom line, munitions to combat all of this potentially at once would be difficult, and this scenario isn't impossible.  The time to build inventory is now.  What we don't want is a moment like WW2 when all of a sudden we were asking Pierre Dupont to make 50 million grenades after the fight has started.  

Hope it doesn't happen, but prepare for the worst.  Our preparation also serves as a deterrent in and of itself.  

[SydneyCarton 48109]

41 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

 

Great time to boost our lagging-for-years recruitinment numbers. "Join the US military, if you're a woman we can't promise you health care, and for all of you the chance for promotion is currently zero at the highest levels. Congress is probably about ensure a government shut down so you might not get paid, but we need you young people to come fight for an America that you're probably super disillusioned with. And since we've got a debt problem, we can't afford to sweeten the pot."

I mean, the return of a draft might be likely at some point, and those are words I never thought I'd type.

[atomheartbevo 89715]

1 hour ago, BamaATL said:

If China made a move during such a situation do we have the arms to deal with it? 

Well, they don't have a true blue water navy that can project hundreds or even a thousand miles out like we do - way too much of their stuff is more intracoastal, even their would-be aircraft carrier groups are going to rely heavily on air cover from coastal areas (because of the limited number of aircraft they can carry), and we could easily sink all of their troop ships or shoot down their airborne units. They don't have stealthy troop transport ships or stealthy cargo planes.

And their carriers are weird - all that effort for ships that carry 30 or less fixed-wing fighters apiece (I know a future carrier is expected to have up to 70 helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft, but it's years away).

1 hour ago, BamaATL said:

Think that's worst case scenario, well not likely, because it's also possible the North Koreans would then move on the South, not to mention India could move on Pakistan.  

Of all the places in the world, India and Pakistan, if that shit got serious, could easily go nuclear.  North Korea is a weird one - Lil Kim is just as paranoid as Putin, and he knows he'd be targeted by everything.

1 hour ago, BamaATL said:

Bottom line, munitions to combat all of this potentially at once would be difficult, and this scenario isn't impossible.  The time to build inventory is now.  What we don't want is a moment like WW2 when all of a sudden we were asking Pierre Dupont to make 50 million grenades after the fight has started.  

Hope it doesn't happen, but prepare for the worst.  Our preparation also serves as a deterrent in and of itself.  

Yep.  I'm not too worried about US vs Russia or US vs China, but we have to be geared to fight both small-scale insurgency type situations, and larger regional situations. I don't think a lot of people realize how many places around the world we have troops (and why we have them there).  

[Pescado_Rojo 19421]

2 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Great time to boost our lagging-for-years recruitinment numbers. "Join the US military, if you're a woman we can't promise you health care, and for all of you the chance for promotion is currently zero at the highest levels. Congress is probably about ensure a government shut down so you might not get paid, but we need you young people to come fight for an America that you're probably super disillusioned with. And since we've got a debt problem, we can't afford to sweeten the pot."

I mean, the return of a draft might be likely at some point, and those are words I never thought I'd type.

As the father of a 16 year old boy, this scares the shit out of me. 

[SydneyCarton 48109]

1 minute ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

As the father of a 16 year old boy, this scares the shit out of me. 

As the father of a 6 year old one, me too. 

[Hawndoh 2386]

Just make sure your boys spend hours playing XBox/PlayStation. If they have elite controller skills they'll get cushy jobs as drone pilots away from danger.

[BamaATL 16593]

48 minutes ago, Hawndoh said:

Just make sure your boys spend hours playing XBox/PlayStation. If they have elite controller skills they'll get cushy jobs as drone pilots away from danger.

I hear there are openings in the private submarine world.  

[Schulz2.0 28960]

 

 

 

[B00M 6416]

6 hours ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

 

 

Haven’t seen any videos of this in Ukraine yet … not sure I want to 

[InkaUtexas 25955]

So going to really freeze them this time. 

 

[Laxtonto 12090]

5 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

So going to really freeze them this time. 

 

This should also make it absolutely known that then their long range strikes are absolutely having to run lock-step with production. If UKA was truly devious, it is now time to find a key cog in that production chain and do some major drone/special operations missions to fracture the production schedule even more.

 

If you are having to stockpile to be able to do larger scale bulk attacks, then you are completely beholden to the production process. The UKA has been tracking serial numbers for a while and this is just one more in a long line of data points showing Russia is at their production limits for all sorts of munitions and vehicles. If they ramp of mobilization then it will further impact production. If they try and ramp up production they have to find a way to deal with lack of skilled labor and production capability (as well as resource scarcity).

 

[B00M 6416]

 

[Viper 12109]

 

 

[atomheartbevo 89715]

[Parliament 14260]

27 minutes ago, Viper said:

 

 

How many cup holders?

[RockyMountainHighHorn 890]

13 hours ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

 

 

Can someone explain the white phosphorus? At first I thought that had to be photo/videoshopped but is that basically a bomb that rains down fire/hot fragments? I’m New to phosphorus bombs, hydraulics on the other hand…

[kevwun 15797]

Phosphorous ignites and burns at a very high temp when it's exposed to air and cannot be extinguished with water.  It's a nastier non-liquid version of napalm.  Wounds from it are very hard to treat because it doesn't stop burning.

Edited October 13, 2023 by kevwun

[The Dog 44060]

 

[Parliament 14260]

Why does the Russian army need body bags?  Seems they just leave their dead on the ground.

[Chad Fuck 17684]

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

 

I've got an extra bag of Hefty yard waste bags I'd toss at 'em if they promise to use them. 

[MissingInAction 25106]

2 hours ago, Parliament said:

How many cup holders?

And HDMI ports?

[pops 6994]

2 hours ago, RockyMountainHighHorn said:

Can someone explain the white phosphorus? At first I thought that had to be photo/videoshopped but is that basically a bomb that rains down fire/hot fragments? I’m New to phosphorus bombs, hydraulics on the other hand…

I also believe they basically burn up all the oxygen in the area so you are suffocating while you're burning to death. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by pops

[MissingInAction 25106]

2 hours ago, kevwun said:

Phosphorous ignites and burns at a very high temp when it's exposed to air and cannot be extinguished with water.  It's a nastier non-liquid version of napalm.  Wounds from it are very hard to treat because it doesn't stop burning.

I'll never forget the Willie Pete demo in basic.

They pulled the pin and set the canister on the hood of an old keep. Fucker went through the engine block like it was acid blood from Aliens.

[Scheiss Meister 8408]

8 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

I'll never forget the Willie Pete demo in basic.

They pulled the pin and set the canister on the hood of an old keep. Fucker went through the engine block like it was acid blood from Aliens.

That's thermite, not willie pete.  Thermite is a point use incendiary made with aluminum, iron oxide, an ignition source,  and binders.  Willie pete is an area incendiary consisting of elemental phosphorous, which ignites on contact with air.  As the demonstration in basic (mine was on the engine compartment of an old tank, burning through the armor covering the engine, the engine block, and the bottom armor, then several inches into the ground) illustrates, thermite is used to destroy vehicles, artillery, and equipment to which one has close access.  White phosphorus is packed into mortar and artillery rounds to be scattered over a target area to ignite canvas, wood, and other flammable materials used by the enemy.  This definition includes uniforms.

As has been mentioned, white phosphorus is very difficult to extinguish until it burns itself out.  It will burn deep into flesh, drawing oxygen from the organic material around it.  It is not supposed to be used against personnel, but if they are too close to the targeted materials (in their uniforms, which are the real target), tough luck.

We were trained to use it against forward arming points, motor pools, and supply dumps.  It is against the rules to use it indiscriminately to just blanket an area, but Russia doesn't give a shit about rules.

[Chad Fuck 17684]

32 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

I'll never forget the Willie Pete demo in basic.

They pulled the pin and set the canister on the hood of an old keep. Fucker went through the engine block like it was acid blood from Aliens.

My Dad tells the same story from basic, when was at Ft. Polk in 1966. 

 

[Scheiss Meister 8408]

30 minutes ago, pops said:

I also believe they basically burn up all the oxygen in the area so you are suffocating while you're burning to death. 

That's napalm and hyperbaric munitions.  Napalm sucks in oxygen from a surprisingly long distance.  Hyperbaric munitions spray fuel out into the atmosphere, then a charge ignites the fuel, using the oxygen in the air to burn the fuel.

I served with a Vietnam vet who told us about going into tunnels on a hillside that had been napalmed very thoroughly.  The bodies within a few feet of entrances and firing ports were horribly burned, but the bodies further in showed few signs of injury.  The napalm had sucked the oxygen out of the tunnels.  Napalm is very nasty all the way around.

[MissingInAction 25106]

14 minutes ago, Scheiss Meister said:

That's thermite, not willie pete.  Thermite is a point use incendiary made with aluminum, iron oxide, an ignition source,  and binders.  Willie pete is an area incendiary consisting of elemental phosphorous, which ignites on contact with air.  As the demonstration in basic (mine was on the engine compartment of an old tank, burning through the armor covering the engine, the engine block, and the bottom armor, then several inches into the ground) illustrates, thermite is used to destroy vehicles, artillery, and equipment to which one has close access.  White phosphorus is packed into mortar and artillery rounds to be scattered over a target area to ignite canvas, wood, and other flammable materials used by the enemy.  This definition includes uniforms.

As has been mentioned, white phosphorus is very difficult to extinguish until it burns itself out.  It will burn deep into flesh, drawing oxygen from the organic material around it.  It is not supposed to be used against personnel, but if they are too close to the targeted materials (in their uniforms, which are the real target), tough luck.

We were trained to use it against forward arming points, motor pools, and supply dumps.  It is against the rules to use it indiscriminately to just blanket an area, but Russia doesn't give a shit about rules.

It's been nearly 30 years. Fuck I'm old.

[Viper 12109]

New edition of Where are They Now?

 

 

[Scheiss Meister 8408]

1 minute ago, MissingInAction said:

It's been nearly 30 years. Fuck I'm old.

44 years for me, so I'm right there with you.  The only way that I remember it is because I was a 60mm mortarman, and we had to study the proper application of each type of round.

[MissingInAction 25106]

4 minutes ago, Scheiss Meister said:

44 years for me, so I'm right there with you.  The only way that I remember it is because I was a 60mm mortarman, and we had to study the proper application of each type of round.

I was in signal Corps, so I spent most of my time in classrooms.

[bolverk 29683]

10 minutes ago, Viper said:

New edition of Where are They Now?

 

 

[Schulz2.0 28960]

14 minutes ago, Viper said:

New edition of Where are They Now?

 

 

That's a shame. Maybe she should go to Dubai and whore herself like all the other Russian women.

[MagicSoccerSpray 1732]

38 minutes ago, Scheiss Meister said:

White phosphorus is packed into mortar and artillery rounds to be scattered over a target area to ignite canvas, wood, and other flammable materials used by the enemy.  This definition includes uniforms.

It's primary use is as a smoke round IIRC, though it is obviously useful as a destructive round.