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Eastwood

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Gatorubet

Gatorubet 30104

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9 minutes ago, Bevo said:

For the record, my issue was with bullshit stats. Just give me the facts and I can form my own opinions.

YARN | I won't blow sunshine up your ass. | Top Gun (1986) | Video gifs by quotes | 04244023 | 紗

I was looking for some image that said, “WE REPORT YOU DECIDE….”

…but I ran across a more interesting gif and so I’m posting that instead

13652642-9768-48D7-8EF3-BBAC09B01F00.gif.f6cf65b6378334349a793c65258da514.gif

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AUS-97HORN
AUS-97HORN

For the love of Christ woman,  stop posting the same fucking thing every 20 mins just to make your neurotic self feel better.     Bring something useful to the thread other than your inane babbli

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InkaUtexas
InkaUtexas

I volunteered today. Log/Admin role to replace people for 30-60 days. The operation is in the west, or should the Orcs win will be pulled back behind the NATO wall. Either way the humanitarian effort

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SL Xpress

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I keep reading on twitter that Spain is going to send 53 older Leopard 2s. The A4 variant, versus the A6 variant Germany and Poland are sending. 

Here's the best article I could find about it:

https://www.madridmetropolitan.com/spain-to-send-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine/

Spoiler

Spain To Send Leopard Tanks To Ukraine

The Spanish Minister of Defence, Margarita Robles, confirmed yesterday, Wednesday 25th January that Spain “ was open to providing Ukraine with a number of their German-made Leopard 2 tanks, after Germany agreed to send the tanks and said that allies could do the same.

The Minister said that “Spain is willing, within this coordination, to work with our allies to do whatever is necessary including the sending of Leopards, training in the use of these Leopards and also to help in their maintenance and upkeep.”

Spain has over 300 Leopard tanks of which 108 are the 2A4 variant which is the older model being offered.

It is believed that some 53 mothballed tanks at a military base in Zaragoza have been earmarked to be refitted and sent.

140120-Robles-1024x681.jpg Margarita Robles, Spanish Defence Minister

Last week, the Spanish Prime Minister, Pedro Sanchez, told delegates at the World Economic Forum in Davos that Spain has already sent some 300 million Euros worth of equipment to Ukraine including heavy weapons such as four U.S.-made HAWK air defence systems since the Russian invasion of the country.

 
 

Spain is also hosting and training Ukrainian troops in air-defence.

Sanchez said that Spain ” will remain united, and we’ll be coordinating with the rest of our allies, especially Europe.”

However not all approve – Sanchez´s government coalition partner, Unidas Podemos, are against the move and said Spain should not send the tanks as it would only “escalate” the conflict and that Russia’s reaction could be “dangerous and unpredictable.”

Other European allies are also sending Leopards – there are an estimated 2,000 of the German made tanks in European armies.

leopard-tank-1024x512.jpg Leopard 2 main battle tank

Germany itself is sending one company of 14 Leopard 2 A6 tanks “as a first step”  – it is expected to send many more

 
 

Poland has announced it will also be sending an initial batch of 14 of the tanks.

The UK had already pledged 14 British Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine.

Andriy Yermak, the head of Zelenskyy’s office, welcomed the German “first step.”

“Leopards are very much needed,” he said while Ukrainian President Zelenskyy announced on Twitter that he was “sincerely grateful to the Chancellor and all our friends in” Germany.

At the NATO Summit in Madrid last year, the Spanish Government announced that the country would increase defence spending to the alliance´s 2% target of GDP by 2029.

 

Honestly, it's not as clear cut as I want it to be based on the article, but at least there's some indication for a pretty healthy donation coming Ukrainians' way from Spain if they move forward with this. 

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SL Xpress

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7 hours ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

Yeah, that SBU shit is a known factor for a long time.

The military also has issues with Russian sympathizers/loyalists, but it was never as ubiquitous as in the SBU. Both services had their history as part of the Soviets, and then even after independence there was a lot of interoperability and cross communication. But with the SBU and the FSB it was far greater. Every time Yanukovych took power he strengthened the SBU with huge budgets, increased manpower, better equipment, while leaving the AFU to rot for the most part. Given that he was pretty much a Russian stooge, of course there was a huge propensity for the people hired - and certainly promoted - to be sympathetic, if not outright cheerleaders, for Russia. 

The article talks about 2010, but it's fairer to say that was the case right up to Yanukovych's departure in February 2014. 

I'd say this and Ukraine's endemic corruption - which they're also trying to fight all while prosecuting a massive war in their own territory - are the two big issues for Ukraine internally that aren't directly related to the military. I don't see any reasonable way to eliminate either one, but if they can just be seen as fighting it and making examples of people, hopefully that will help. 

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InkaUtexas

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6 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

According to Inka's link, U.S. is #9 out of 37...not too shabby considering our defense budget. 

These numbers include all assistance. Military, humanitarian, etc. 

Our humanitarian support gets overlooked. It is not sexy, but it is there. Another area we are supporting is building up their police and internal affairs elements. 

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DigglerontheHoof

DigglerontheHoof 21062

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1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

These numbers include all assistance. Military, humanitarian, etc. 

Our humanitarian support gets overlooked. It is not sexy, but it is there. Another area we are supporting is building up their police and internal affairs elements. 

Derp.  Thanks, helps to read the header. 

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Gatorubet

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I very much look forward to their pain the next 50 years as their whole world is dramatically reduced. No jobs, no healthcare, rising crime, their already shitty infrastructure crumbling, decreased ability to travel, and everywhere they go if they can go they are treated like the psychotic lepers they are.
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Gatorubet

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53 Leopards from Spain. 72 tanks from Poland.  (14 Leopards and 60 updated T-72s), 14 Leopards from Germany.   14 Challengers from UK.   31 Abrams from Uncle Sam to guard Kiev….and one tank from somewhere with a Maple leaf on its side, and a case of Molson on the back. 

184 tanks can interrupt a gaggle of BMPs trying to bring troops in-country and make those T-62s wish they had not engaged.   In a who-sees-who first engagement, our modern western optics should allow us to fuck them up before they even know we are there.

Reminder peeps - back in November it was reported that the US and the Dutch we’re splitting the cost of Czechoslovakia modernizing ninety (90) T-72 battle tanks (destined for Ukraine as soon as they were updated).   Either that did not get done - or it is being done so slowly they may not be delivered soon enough.  Or they got delivered but no one wants to talk about that because it lessens the impact of the pleas for tanks if 90 just got delivered. 

So that is 274 new tanks…eventually.   This obviously does not include all of the captured armor.  Not sure if someone is keeping a tally of those poor tractor victims.

No reason we can’t find 500 more. 

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Orange&White

Orange&White 5516

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3 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

I had not heard of “Twardy” tanks. 

 

Coming soon to a Ukrainian field near you.  Thanks Poland.  Russians are fucking terrified, like all bullies used to beating up on the weak. 

 

Solovyov might need to be the next in line to keep himself on the ground floor of the buildings he enters.

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Gatorubet

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12 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

Solovyov might need to be the next in line to keep himself on the ground floor of the buildings he enters.

Quote

Calling Americans “conniving liars,” Solovyov said that their arrogance is Russia’s own fault: “We aren’t creating any threats against them. We aren’t conducting strikes against New York, we aren’t banging Washington, we aren’t threatening Miami, we aren’t doing anything to endanger Americans. They blew up our pipelines, we just wiped our face off. They’re delivering heavy tanks, we’re wiping our face off. Stop talking about red lines! It’s a totally empty phrase that doesn’t mean a thing!”

Enraged, Solovyov screamed: “Berlin, Paris, Madrid, London, Washington should be on fire! The capitals of Nazi countries who made a decision to go to war with Russia... Why wasn’t Kyiv wiped off the face of the earth after the Nazi nation of Ukraine conducted a strike against our strategic aviation base? Stop resorting to empty, worthless words!”

He mad. 

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Gatorubet

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On 2/19/2022 at 2:23 AM, 956 Worldwide said:

Let’s veer back into the realm of possible and explore Russia’s potential war aims.  Because how a war ends is more interesting and arguably more important than how it starts. Surprise— I don’t see any of the likely scenarios contributing to a better security environment for Russia or anyone else.  These are by nature simplified into categories with significant room for each scenario to take on different attributes. 
 

Minimal-  Putin recognizes Donbas areas in a preview to annexation and sends in Russian “peacekeepers.” Very likely, they seize the areas claimed but not controlled currently by DPR/LPR and potentially seize a corridor to connect them to Crimea by land.  Accompanied by usual cyber and propaganda warfare, no real effort is made to change the leadership in Kyiv.

Problem: This moves pieces around the board but does not result in check. Russians do not really want Donbas, unlike Crimea. Attitudes against Russia have hardened and Ukraine leans even harder into the West. After the immediate crisis passes, more Western arms and trainers flow to Ukraine. Putin can write off a friendly Kyiv in his lifetime.  Likely crippling sanctions. This is a good punt— you flip the field but you’re back on defense if you’re Russia. Putin has pretty much said he considers a pro-West Kyiv to be a core security threat. 

Moderate- All the above PLUS a decapitation strike against Ukrainian leadership and installation of a new, friendly regime. Perhaps a bigger land grab in the East that then the new government “recognizes.”  
 

Problem: Ukrainians do not want a puppet government and one cannot be installed and maintained absent extreme repressive measures.  Manipulation and tricks do not work, see Orange Revolution and 2014z Ukraine would become a true client state. Russian forces likely needed throughout the country to maintain order.  The west does have a history and terrain to support an insurgency and the West might be inclined to support it.  Strong potential of low grade warfare on the border with NATO and increasing chance of miscalculations. High likelihood of serious human rights abuses and refugee flows all around and now Russia has a new security problem- how to continue to prop up Kyiv against itself. 
 

Maximum- Russia attempts to occupy the country and incorporate Ukraine into Russia. A combined arms army in Uzhgorod looking across the border at NATO. Putin is your president now, Yevhen. 
 

Problems: Almost all of the above insurgence and pacification issues plus now Putin has what he says he doesn’t want— NATO at his doorstep.  Moldova, with its own frozen conflict, becomes the new bone of contention as the last sort of “gray area” left. NATO dramatically increases its force posture on the eastern flank. The only semi-benefit is the cold simplicity of the new “mine and yours” Iron Curtain. 
 

My own thought is Putin is most likely to go to some form of moderate ending— and I am not at all sure that Russia has the capability to achieve it without serious aftershocks that they may not be able to cope with. 

Just a shout out to 956 worldwide and his always insightful posts.  In the days before the actual invasion he certainly nailed it.

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statsman

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1 hour ago, SL Xpress said:

Yes. Those hard right people in Europe. 

Right means something different in Europe (and pretty much the rest of the world) than in the US. There are no Reagan Republicans abroad. Pretty much all parties are for state control of the economy to a certain extent. 
 
I don’t know that the Euro hard left prioritizes social justice over rule of law to the extent it does in America. 

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Pescado_Rojo

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3 hours ago, Gatorubet said:
3 hours ago, Gravy Train said:
 

I very much look forward to their pain the next 50 years as their whole world is dramatically reduced. No jobs, no healthcare, rising crime, their already shitty infrastructure crumbling, decreased ability to travel, and everywhere they go if they can go they are treated like the psychotic lepers they are.

They'll be like a giant North Korea, rattling the nuke saber every time they're hungry or they need something from the West. 

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Felix

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Tank primer #2 - Gunnery AKA The most fun you can have with your clothes on

We trained on this all the time.  It was our primary mission.  Placing steel on target.  I'm sure it's pretty much the same now, but we shot a full crew gunnery qualification at least once a year, sometimes twice depending on where you were deployed.  This consists of multiple engagements both stationary and moving against armor, both moving and stationary, and infantry.  We also spent at least an hour a week in simulators fine tuning our crew interaction, fire commands, etc.

The M1 is so good at putting steel on target, you have to almost try to miss once you know what you are doing.  We could hit targets out to 4000 meters, but most engagement was under 2000 meters.  Training standards in my day were 6 seconds from target identification to target destruction while stationary and 8 seconds moving if I remember correctly, but most crews trained to a 4 or 6 second standard.  By the early 90s we were no longer using daylight optics as our primary sights.  Thermal was primary for all weather and light conditions because they were so effective.  Vehicles GLOW in thermal sights in any weather, day or night, fog, smoke, hot, cold, desert, snow, forest, whatever. Troops are smaller but also stand out against background temp. 

A typical firing engagement against enemy armor would begin with the Tank Commander (TC, duh) using his TC override handle to point the gun to the target he's evaluated as the most immediate threat. For example a stationary tank is considered a greater threat than a moving tank. Obviously a tank is a greater threat than a BMP or troops.  He would then issue his fire command to the gunner "Gunner, Sabot, Tank" is an example.  Usually the preferred ammo is already loaded at the beginning of the engagement, but this assumes the gun is empty.  Loader then loads announced ammo or simply takes the main gun off safe and declares "Up".  Simultaneously the gunner announces "Identified" to let the TC know he has the target and lays the main gun on the target.  If the target is stationary, he then announces "lasing" and the range comes up simultaneously on his sight and the TCs panel. If the target is moving he "drops the lead" by quickly releasing the control yoke as the computer uses turret movement and range to calculate lead.   TC quickly determines if it's a valid range (sometimes if there is intervening terrain you can get a bad lase) and if he determines it's good announces "Fire".  After lasing the fire control computer will use the range plus a bunch of other factors like temp, humidity, gun barrel temp, ammo temp, elevation changes, and a myriad of others to adjust the reticle and the gunner simply replaces it center of mass and announces "On the way" and pulls the trigger.

Big boom follows, spent casing is ejected and breach stays open.  On the 120 mm the casing is designed to burn up and all that comes back is the butt plate of casing with a longish metal rod so it's easy to get rid of.  Loader then waits for next fire command to determine ammo needed and uses his knee to trigger a switch to open the ammo doors, pulls the required round, drops it butt down, rotates it over and rams into the breach which then closes. The above process repeats as needed.  This doesn't cover machine gun engagements or other types of ammo or vehicles, but you get the idea.

CSB when I was in Korea as a PFC, I was the driver on the tank the won the Battalion cup for gunnery.  Our gunner was an absolute wizard.  On our first moving engagement the main gun hydraulic cylinder blew so the gun just dropped to it's lowest elevation.  Turret still worked so as the gunner lined up, the TC just put his foot on the breach and pushed it all the way down and as it slowly came back down (it was very well balanced) our gunner would fire as it came down onto the target.  We hit 4 targets like that on the move with no stabilization or computer range adjustment. He used the back up sight with a graduated reticle and used the TCs estimated range.  Shortest target we hit was at 1100 meters and longest was around 1350 m.  I doubt seriously I could have done that with any amount of practice.

TLDR, If the Ukrainian crews are as motivated as they seem, a brigade of NATO MBTs will absolutely roll through the Ruskies like crap through a goose, killing everything they see at ranges the Russians won't be able to comprehend.

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atomheartbevo

atomheartbevo 89439

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42 minutes ago, Felix said:

Tank primer #2 - Gunnery AKA The most fun you can have with your clothes on

We trained on this all the time.  It was our primary mission.  Placing steel on target.  I'm sure it's pretty much the same now, but we shot a full crew gunnery qualification at least once a year, sometimes twice depending on where you were deployed.  This consists of multiple engagements both stationary and moving against armor, both moving and stationary, and infantry.  We also spent at least an hour a week in simulators fine tuning our crew interaction, fire commands, etc.

During the early part of the invasion, there was a lot of talk from analysts and others who were familiar with Russian training and logistics, who said  many of the Russian T-72 crews were only allowed to shoot a couple of rounds a year, because the corruption was so bad and maintenance so poor, that the budget and supplies just weren't there for the training.

A couple of rounds a year.  That seems really bad.

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Parliament

Parliament 14136

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59 minutes ago, Felix said:

 

CSB when I was in Korea as a PFC, I was the driver on the tank the won the Battalion cup for gunnery.  Our gunner was an absolute wizard.  On our first moving engagement the main gun hydraulic cylinder blew so the gun just dropped to it's lowest elevation.  Turret still worked so as the gunner lined up, the TC just put his foot on the breach and pushed it all the way down and as it slowly came back down (it was very well balanced) our gunner would fire as it came down onto the target.  We hit 4 targets like that on the move with no stabilization or computer range adjustment. He used the back up sight with a graduated reticle and used the TCs estimated range.  Shortest target we hit was at 1100 meters and longest was around 1350 m.  I doubt seriously I could have done that with any amount of practice.

TLDR, If the Ukrainian crews are as motivated as they seem, a brigade of NATO MBTs will absolutely roll through the Ruskies like crap through a goose, killing everything they see at ranges the Russians won't be able to comprehend.

Mother of God

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