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Русский корабль - иди нахуй

Eastwood

By Eastwood
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RPM

RPM 26228

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4 minutes ago, Bevo said:

I don't think they will be used much in offensive operations. Moreover, I think the idea among military leaders is that the war is about to change. Russia is going to mount an offensive to mark the one yer anniversary of the war. It is assumed that Ukraine will be able to stop this offensive and launch a massive counteroffensive. Then the situation gets dicey as Russia weighs its options.

Once the rooskies get pushed out of Crimea they will claim invasion. See? I told you they were attacking Mother Russia all along!!

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AUS-97HORN
AUS-97HORN

For the love of Christ woman,  stop posting the same fucking thing every 20 mins just to make your neurotic self feel better.     Bring something useful to the thread other than your inane babbli

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InkaUtexas
InkaUtexas

I volunteered today. Log/Admin role to replace people for 30-60 days. The operation is in the west, or should the Orcs win will be pulled back behind the NATO wall. Either way the humanitarian effort

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Sawbonz

Sawbonz 27429

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10 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

Arash isn't exactly passing with flying colors, but he's surviving. Granddad gives him a bit of a compliment before they do some manuevers. "Son, it looks like you have the makings of a good pilot. You're handling yourself pretty well up here." And the guy responds, "Yes yes. I suppose I am." 

This is a textbook example of one end of the dunning kruger effect

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SL Xpress

SL Xpress 7505

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1 hour ago, RPM said:

People wanting to ship A-10s don't understand the battlefield. Drones are 50x more effective with zero friendly pilots at risk.

There's a religious fervor regarding A-10s. I understand it, but they're simply not practical even a little bit unless you have overwhelming air superiority including other aircraft, SAMs, and even MANPADs. Whatever else Russia has been incompetent about, their SAM systems are no joke. 

I have a religious fervor for Apaches, but that ain't happening, either, for a ton of reasons. 

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SL Xpress

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2 hours ago, KYHorn said:

Helpful thread explains limits of providing F-16s:

 

He also addresses the A-10 question:

 

 

The issues I have with Justin Bronk's conclusions as I'm reading them here are:

1) it's not like the Ukraine air force's current planes are facing less challenges than the western fighters that might replace them. They're somehow managing to keep them up in the air, even in a limited way. I assume the same strategies being utilized for their MiGs and SUs would be used for western fighter jets. The key thing from an armchair perspective is that we know the US and allies have a ton of F16s that could be spared, especially as we're about to transition to the F35. 

2) the real problem isn't a need for an increased quantity of planes, or a qualitative increase in the type of fighters Ukrainians can fly - although those would be obvious pleasant side effects. The real problem is that Ukraine is running out of ammunition for their Soviet style planes, with no way to replace it. To have ANY armed air presence at some point is going to require western planes. It's no wonder the Ukrainians aren't real picky about which planes are given to them, as long as the ammunition comes with it. The Ukrainians want to be able to use missile intercept armament that the western planes can be armed with, that can't be on the fighters they have now. 

Yes, Western support is a finite resource. But not being able to scramble ANY kind of effective air presence compared to being able to scramble a limited air presence, is an EXTREMELY significant difference. 

The specification of F-18s and Gripens sounds like it's coming from an airplane nerd who isn't sufficiently taking into account the conditions on the battlefield or the political realities of beggars not being choosers. 

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RPM

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24 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

There's a religious fervor regarding A-10s. I understand it, but they're simply not practical even a little bit unless you have overwhelming air superiority including other aircraft, SAMs, and even MANPADs. Whatever else Russia has been incompetent about, their SAM systems are no joke. 

I have a religious fervor for Apaches, but that ain't happening, either, for a ton of reasons. 

I get it, too. BRRRRRRRT is really f'n cool. But it's a MANPAD magnet.

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ABSR

ABSR 5289

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4 hours ago, RPM said:

Once the rooskies get pushed out of Crimea they will claim invasion. See? I told you they were attacking Mother Russia all along!!

They have already claimed to “annex” all the territory they occupy and territory they no longer occupy.  So technically there is territory that is “Russian” which Ukraine already occupies.  They will just be a little more upset with Crimea as they invaded and stole it longer ago than what they more recently invaded and stole.

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Bevo

Bevo 13527

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1 hour ago, ABSR said:

They have already claimed to “annex” all the territory they occupy and territory they no longer occupy.  So technically there is territory that is “Russian” which Ukraine already occupies.  They will just be a little more upset with Crimea as they invaded and stole it longer ago than what they more recently invaded and stole.

Crimea is a vacation spot and a warm water port.

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Bevo

Bevo 13527

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She writes: Today is my birthday. Which because of recent events, I'm not celebrating. But if you want to congratulate me, you can do it by donating to the unit in the bio

That's all well and good, but I want to give a little extra something. 

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SL Xpress

SL Xpress 7505

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32 minutes ago, Slacks said:

Go on.

Mmmhmmmm...

Exactly.

I do feel like you're drawing a false equivalency. I don't know why you are, but that's your prerogative. 

My grandfather started teaching students how to fly during WWII with the B-17 bomber. He became one of the first people to fly helicopters when he was trained by the Army, and then proceeded to be a trainer into the mid 70s. 

When he would run auto rotation check rides, for example, the Persian Muslims simply approached it differently. Auto rotation is a mandatory skill to learn for new students. To demonstrate proficiency the instructor literally cuts off the engine sending the helicopter into free fall. The student has to show they can tilt the helicopter in a way to make the rotor spin by itself simply from the draft produced by free falling, and then use the rotor spin to, at the last second, "flare" the helicopter up right before landing to make a safe touchdown. Western students would become hyper focused during these exercises because they didn't want to die. In my grandfather's experience, the Muslim pilots he taught in Iran had a more fatalistic approach "If it is Allah's will, I will land safely" - which has its own advantages, for sure - but in my grandfather's experience made them poorer students. 

Here's a video explaining the exercise:

https://www.google.com/search?q=auto+rotation+helicopter&rlz=1C1OPNX_enUS972US972&sxsrf=AJOqlzXMo36dEpc7Ph7O7EkXJj-oOjr2Pw%3A1675034008516&ei=mP3WY_SRH46pptQP8M2_4Ak&oq=auto+rotation&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQARgEMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgcIABCwAxBDMgcIABCwAxBDSgQIQRgASgQIRhgAUABYAGDdFmgBcAF4AIABAIgBAJIBAJgBAMgBCsABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:82e8f26d,vid:X5vA3OqnVuc

That's just one example, and possibly one of the more dramatic, but it infused their approach to their training. None of this is to say they were terrible pilots. The Iranians demonstrated what they could do in aircraft in the Iraqi war when early on they made the successful attack on the Iraqi H-3 air base, destroying 48 Iraqi air craft on the ground with no losses of their own:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-3_airstrike

Nonetheless, in my grandfather's opinion this approach to life and specifically to their training meant they would never be the equal to the Israeli pilots. Which, to be honest, the Israeli pilots have shown demonstrably against Muslim enemies since their existence. 

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Slacks

Slacks 6791

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9 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

I do feel like you're drawing a false equivalency. I don't know why you are, but that's your prerogative. 

My grandfather started teaching students how to fly during WWII with the B-17 bomber. He became one of the first people to fly helicopters when he was trained by the Army, and then proceeded to be a trainer into the mid 70s. 

When he would run auto rotation check rides, for example, the Persian Muslims simply approached it differently. Auto rotation is a mandatory skill to learn for new students. To demonstrate proficiency the instructor literally cuts off the engine sending the helicopter into free fall. The student has to show they can tilt the helicopter in a way to make the rotor spin by itself simply from the draft produced by free falling, and then use the rotor spin to, at the last second, "flare" the helicopter up right before landing to make a safe touchdown. Western students would become hyper focused during these exercises because they didn't want to die. In my grandfather's experience, the Muslim pilots he taught in Iran had a more fatalistic approach "If it is Allah's will, I will land safely" - which has its own advantages, for sure - but in my grandfather's experience made them poorer students. 

Here's a video explaining the exercise:

https://www.google.com/search?q=auto+rotation+helicopter&rlz=1C1OPNX_enUS972US972&sxsrf=AJOqlzXMo36dEpc7Ph7O7EkXJj-oOjr2Pw%3A1675034008516&ei=mP3WY_SRH46pptQP8M2_4Ak&oq=auto+rotation&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQARgEMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgcIABCwAxBDMgcIABCwAxBDSgQIQRgASgQIRhgAUABYAGDdFmgBcAF4AIABAIgBAJIBAJgBAMgBCsABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:82e8f26d,vid:X5vA3OqnVuc

That's just one example, and possibly one of the more dramatic, but it infused their approach to their training. None of this is to say they were terrible pilots. The Iranians demonstrated what they could do in aircraft in the Iraqi war when early on they made the successful attack on the Iraqi H-3 air base, destroying 48 Iraqi air craft on the ground with no losses of their own:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-3_airstrike

Nonetheless, in my grandfather's opinion this approach to life and specifically to their training meant they would never be the equal to the Israeli pilots. Which, to be honest, the Israeli pilots have shown demonstrably against Muslim enemies since their existence. 

Wasn't a shot at your grandfather or his assessment.  My apologies if it came across that way.

My point was their belief system is no different than the belief system right here in the U.S.

It wasn't that they were Muslim. It was that they weren't trained to be trained. We have the same belief system here, but when someone says "it's God's will"and fails, we don't blame the religion. we blame everything but religion.

 

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Bevo

Bevo 13527

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Slacks said:

Wasn't a shot at your grandfather or his assessment.  My apologies if it came across that way.

My point was their belief system is no different than the belief system right here in the U.S.

It wasn't that they were Muslim. It was that they weren't trained to be trained. We have the same belief system here, but when someone says "it's God's will"and fails, we don't blame the religion. we blame everything but religion.

 

If you think when an average american born christian says it is god's will has the same meaning as when an iranian born muslim says it, I don't know what to tell you. There is a giant schism in conviction. At the very least regardless of religious differences more affluent people have a greater respect for life.

Edited by Bevo
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SL Xpress

SL Xpress 7505

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11 minutes ago, Slacks said:

Wasn't a shot at your grandfather or his assessment.  My apologies if it came across that way.

My point was their belief system is no different than the belief system right here in the U.S.

It wasn't that they were Muslim. It was that they weren't trained to be trained. We have the same belief system here, but when someone says "it's God's will"and fails, we don't blame the religion. we blame everything but religion.

 

I do think there are distinctions with Christianity and Islam that can be found throughout their respective histories and are reflective of world power dynamics today. That's not to laud or criticize either one. 

Islam never had a reformation of any sort. There is a martyrdom lionized in Islam that while recognized in Christianity, isn't as mainstream. Islam conflates the political leader, the religious leader, and the military commander into one person in a way Christianity does not. There's no such belief in Islam of "render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."

There are reasons there's a lack of innovation that comes out of the Islamic world, even as their command of resources and their populations have grown. It wasn't always this way, but it's been a long time since an Islamic nation was the center of some kind of breaking research. It's not like Christianity has always been friendly towards scientific progress, but the mainstream religion was able to make compromises that led to the Baroque and Renaissance Eras and beyond, that Islam has failed to do in many ways. 

Christianity doesn't have a full on judicial system that is part and parcel with the religion. The persecution of apostasy in Muslim countries is on a level left behind by Christianity several centuries ago. 

 

To compare the two and say both religions have similarities is absolutely true, but to leave it at that is facile and disingenuous, and creates a context of relativity between the two that belies what each religion is trying to do to hold power in this world, along with spreading their doctrine further. Might as well throw in Scientology, Mormons, Hindus, Judaism, and whatever else and say they're all the same. They're all very different in very identifiable ways. 

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Slacks

Slacks 6791

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Bevo said:

If you think when an average american born christian says it is god's will has the same meaning as when an iranian born muslim says it, I don't know what to tell you. There is a giant schism in conviction. At the very least regardless of religious differences more affluent people have a greater respect for life.

Difficult for me to offer a different perspective via short Internet posts... 

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SL Xpress

SL Xpress 7505

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7 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 At the very least regardless of religious differences more affluent people have a greater respect for life.

I don't even think that's always true, although it can be.

Japanese kamikaze pilots weren't flying their planes directly into US ships because they were poor. They believed they were emblematic of the samurai spirit.

The pilots who flew the planes during 9/11 were not all from poor backgrounds. But they all felt like they were an instrument of God's will. 

The Western thought process doesn't generally engender these belief systems, from either a command perspective or among the rank and file. Certainly "suicide missions" do exist, and are implemented. But it's usually with a sense that if things go remarkably well, the people executing it will live through it. That's different from the kamikazes, the 9/11 pilots, and various suicide bombers, where the successful execution of the plan makes their death a basic assumption. 

To bring this back to Ukraine, what Russia and Wagner are doing on the front lines is not the same as Muslim martyrdom as prosecuted by suicide bombers. Yes, it's basically suicide to make the kind of frontal assaults we've seen in Bakhmut and Soledar, but the successful execution of the frontal assault would mean the soldiers live. There's the distinction. 

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Sawbonz

Sawbonz 27429

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no CR but you don’t want to know how many patients I have had who never masked, altered behavior, or got vaxxed because whatever happened would be “ god’s will”. I wanted to ask them why they were seeing me for their orthopedic problem since clearly it was god’s will for them to be in pain 

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SL Xpress

SL Xpress 7505

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

no CR but you don’t want to know how many patients I have had who never masked, altered behavior, or got vaxxed because whatever happened would be “ god’s will”. I wanted to ask them why they were seeing me for their orthopedic problem since clearly it was god’s will for them to be in pain 

There are several sects of Christianity that do not believe in medical treatment of any kind. 

It's likely they would also not make good pilots, according to my grandfather. However, given that he was teaching students how to fly in the 50s, 60s, and early 70s, the chances are good he taught a few people who went to church along the way. 

I know a lot of people who are anti masking/vaxxing for something other than religious reasons. They tell me about how unsafe the Covid vaccinations are. Which, fine, I won't die on that hill. But I don't want to hear about how unsafe polio, smallpox, and measles vaccinations are, among others, which is where they try to go. These people don't go to church anywhere. They are part of the alternative nutrition/medical treatment system that has sprung up, where the pharmaceutical and medical system in this country is pure evil, and wants to hide truly effective treatments in the name of profits. And unfortunately there's enough of a kernel of truth there that the baby gets thrown out with the bath water in illogical - and for me, personally terrifying - ways.  

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