Русский корабль - иди нахуй

[atomheartbevo 89,788]

8 hours ago, tokamak said:

- are we in an echo chamber?

Yes, and no..   Most of us are college-educated, decently-traveled, and for whatever reason, seem to trend from our 40s into our 60s, which means most of us grew up with the Soviet Union/Russia being the big bad guy (and Putin proving that continues to be the case) and we grew up with the idea of not being able to trust the Soviets/Russia. It also means a lot of us have seen a lot of bullshit in our lives (helped by being college football fans). A lot of us have some kind of military experience, or have worked with the government in some capacity (even if just business dealings), have read our fair share of Tom Clancy, etc. novels (a staple in the late 80s and into the 90s), and are well-read (outside of fiction) etc. and so are into this stuff more than most people.

Most of us have also been around on various message boards, BBSes, usenet, etc. going back decades, so we have seen a lot of bullshit, a lot of misinformation, and not just because we are college football fans and used to people pushing misinformation to try and milk $9.95 a month out of us, but it sure as hell helps to be exposed to college football "journalism" and fan sites that are pushing this or that latest recruiting scoop or conference realignment talk or whatever - many of us can smell the bullshit.

So from that perspective, yes, this is an echo chamber in that we have we have a lot of common/shared experiences, even if they weren't identical.

Except that it's hard to put us in any specific echo chamber - I'd say we have a lot broader worldview than most people and we are more than happy to look elsewhere from information - because of our longevity, our interests, the forums we used to communicate online (such as Surly) we've been forced to look at perspectives we might not have considered, and again, most of us are old enough to remember Soviet/Russian propaganda from the 80s and earlier and we see it rearing its ugly head in 2022 and 2023.  

We are also used to doing actual research, whether it's academic or business-related, tracking airplanes for potential head football coaches, or even hobby-related.  This thread is proof - plenty of us have mentioned going down various rabbit holes on podcasts, books, interviews, etc. in reading about what's going on in Ukraine (including the Australian guy's hour-long YouTube videos doing deep dives on obscure or mundane stuff).

The true echo chamber residents are people like Elon Musk or my Qanon in-law who automatically buy into bullshit that some anonymous person mentioned in a tweet, or older people who get their views from talking heads on TV - these people are looking for confirmation bias and nothing more, either because they can't analyze complex scenarios or thoughts, or because they are too lazy to do so.  These people buy into the bullshit Nordsteam conspiracy theory that Hersh is pushing, even though multiple people dug into that story and disproved it quickly.  They have the attitude of "Oh Hersh had something to do with Watergate so he's respectable and he's breaking free of the mainstream media and doing his own thing" because, again, confirmation bias - they need to believe him.  They don't stop to think that A) we have no reason to bomb pipelines we had already been getting shut down with economic sanctions and B) they should look at what he actually said (or look to people who looked into what he said). The problem with those types is that they are easy to fool, and extremely hard to convince that they've been fooled. 

[Armybrat 40,896]

I think you assholes are the best source of info about this war than any lamestream media from Fox to MSNBC. 
 

[atomheartbevo 89,788]

Russia is relying on Belarus to produce and supply SU-25s, a 40 year-old aircraft.  After Russia helps them get setup.

Imagine if Mexico announced that it was going to start building and supplying A-10s to help America out.

Edited February 18, 2023 by atomheartbevo

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

4 hours ago, YGIFS said:

Maybe I'll get lucky and get banned by you cunts.  I don't advocate the site nor the speaker, but you're a fucking moron if you don't think it's worth noting that  a current U.S. Secretary of State will be speaking about the current War in Ukraine.  No endorsement, no condemnation, just passing along the link.  If you are offended, just don't click on the fucking link.  23 February, he'll chime in on Ukraine/Russia.  Or delete the link, cuntbags:

https://registration.hopin.com/widgets/registration/big-story-russia-war-ukraine-anniversary?widget_id=HllrOBkIDIgORZtSsOTTkCsCc

Why is this post so funny? I’m crying laughing.

[Gatorubet 30,303]

3 hours ago, BamaATL said:

No that little rant wasn't directed at your post, just in general.  It's all just such a lazy and unrealistic narrative to think that once one guy is dead magically things are going to get better.  A single death isn't going to solve massive and ingrained systemic issues with anything, and yet I hear it all the time (not here but lots of other places). 

That and vapes are silly, if you don't smoke tarltons, fuck you.  (Bonus points awarded for knowing the reference).  

 If it’s the “rather fight than switch” cigarette, it’s Tareyton.   

 

[Schulz2.0 29,011]

2 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

 If it’s the “rather fight than switch” cigarette, it’s Tareyton.   

 

Idiocracy 

[Bevo in VA 342]

Pretty cool video from "Witch" in Bakhmut.  She's a commander of a mortar platoon and tells the story of fending off a Russian attack on the asphalt plant they were defending.  Definitely got some bad Mfers over there.

 

 

[KYHorn 17,154]

Was this the one that was deleted a few days ago?

[KYHorn 17,154]

The guy above Putin's left shoulder was killed in Ukraine.

 

Top Russian spy colonel for Vladimir Putin and celebrated paratrooper killed in Ukraine

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-russia-spy-putin-killed-b2284688.html

[Kel Varnsen 8,540]

13 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

Was this the one that was deleted a few days ago?

Nyet

Edited February 18, 2023 by Kel Varnsen

[BamaATL 16,593]

13 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

Was this the one that was deleted a few days ago?

Nope, believe it or not the one from the other day was far worse.  I'm guessing an Excalibur artillery strike.  I don't think anyone really even limped away from that one, many were flat out vaporized.  

[Gatorubet 30,303]

9 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

This stuff still freaks me out a bit.   I think of my dad in the battle of the bulge and people being able to watch short videos of the German artillery hitting St. Vith in close to real time….or I guess us destroying the krauts at the Falaise pocket.   A tad creepy….but I can’t not watch every one. 

[atomheartbevo 89,788]

6 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

This stuff still freaks me out a bit.   I think of my dad in the battle of the bulge and people being able to watch short videos of the German artillery hitting St. Vith in close to real time….or I guess us destroying the krauts at the Falaise pocket.   A tad creepy….but I can’t not watch every one. 

It is creepy.  It would have had a definite impact on some wars if the public saw footage of their troops being wounded/killed within hours or a day or two of it happening, particularly Vietnam for the US, Afghanistan for the Soviets (and lest we forget, Russian mothers had a huge influence on that war being wound down).

Shame that the Russian people can't be bombarded with this stuff.

This is an interesting/short read about WWII and American publications and publishing photos of dead Americans:

https://time.com/3524493/the-photo-that-won-world-war-ii-dead-americans-at-buna-beach-1943/

Quote

Here, LIFE.com recalls one of those pivotal battles, the Battle of Buna-Gona, through pictures made by the master photojournalist George Strock—including one of the most famous and influential photographs ever taken in any war, anywhere: the disquieting image of three dead Americans half-buried in the sand at a place called Buna Beach.

Quote

What is ultimately so notable about Strock’s picture, however—beyond its sheer technical excellence, and its quiet power—is that when it was published in LIFE magazine in September 1943, it was the first time that any photograph depicting dead American troops had appeared in any American publication during World War II. The story behind how the photograph came to be published, meanwhile, speaks volumes about LIFE magazine’s national stature during the war, and the strained relationship that always exists (and, in an elemental way, should always exist) between journalists and government officials.

 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

19 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

The guy above Putin's left shoulder was killed in Ukraine.

 

Top Russian spy colonel for Vladimir Putin and celebrated paratrooper killed in Ukraine

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-russia-spy-putin-killed-b2284688.html

That ain’t Putin.

[Schulz2.0 29,011]

 

[Schulz2.0 29,011]

[Schulz2.0 29,011]

Russians aren't even hiding that they want to destroy any remnants of Ukrainian culture.

 

[Bevo 13,600]

27 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

It is creepy.  It would have had a definite impact on some wars if the public saw footage of their troops being wounded/killed within hours or a day or two of it happening, particularly Vietnam for the US, Afghanistan for the Soviets (and lest we forget, Russian mothers had a huge influence on that war being wound down).

Shame that the Russian people can't be bombarded with this stuff.

This is an interesting/short read about WWII and American publications and publishing photos of dead Americans:

https://time.com/3524493/the-photo-that-won-world-war-ii-dead-americans-at-buna-beach-1943/

 

Link didn't work for me. It pulled up this photo for some reason:

[Rimbo 26,071]

14 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Link didn't work for me. It pulled up this photo for some reason:

RIP.

[Orange&White 5,539]

Russians must have some distorted idea of how easy it is to print new books. Or, I don’t know, create more websites that relay the exact same information.
 

For a like comparison that they may understand, it seems like the cost of one HIMARS could reprint everything they’ve attempted to destroy.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Orange&White

[BamaATL 16,593]

19 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

Russians must have some distorted idea of how easy it is to print new books. Or, I don’t know, create more websites that relay the exact same information.
 

For a like comparison that they may understand, it seems like the cost of one HIMARS could reprint everything they’ve attempted to destroy.

So has it ever worked out well for anyone that decides to burn books?  I'm sure in ancient times this was somewhat effective as a means of cultural suppression.  To your point, it's almost more cost effective now just to give kids ipads or some other tablet in lieu of books anyway.  I value notion of actual books themselves, and I believe libraries are still important, but when it comes to 7th grade social studies, does anyone really care once you consider that ipad thing?  

I think it speaks to the larger point of the russian leadership being so grossly out of touch with reality.  It's sort of like when they bombed the old tv tower in Kyiv in the first few weeks of this war.  Someone (I suspect putin), quite literally thought that was important, because they were under the misguided impression that taking out over the air tv would allow them to start controlling the information space.  Both of these things just scream, "I don't get the modern world at all."

[statsman 5,478]

1 hour ago, Schulz2.0 said:

Grafenwohr, holla! That’s where I was born!

[Sawbonz 27,587]

On 2/16/2023 at 3:07 PM, MillerEP said:

 

[Sbbruin 21,867]

9 minutes ago, statsman said:

Grafenwohr, holla! That’s where I was born!

I’m Team Slitherin all day long.

[SL Xpress 7,518]

1 hour ago, Schulz2.0 said:

Russians aren't even hiding that they want to destroy any remnants of Ukrainian culture.

 

 

I want to say it's ironic that the Russians are doing exactly what they accused the Ukrainians of doing to the Russian minority prior to the invasion.

But it's not ironic. First of all, they were lying about it to their own people as a false justification. Second of all, it's like the liar who thinks everyone around him is always lying. You're constantly ascribing motives to others that you yourself possess, because that's how you imagine everyone is.

Same thing happens to the person who is always truthful. Some folks around the world can't conceive of Russian barbarity because they don't follow events that closely, and they can't conceive that a populace would be this evil. But here we are. 

[Brisketexan 105,315]

 
I want to say it's ironic that the Russians are doing exactly what they accused the Ukrainians of doing to the Russian minority prior to the invasion.
But it's not ironic. First of all, they were lying about it to their own people as a false justification. Second of all, it's like the liar who thinks everyone around him is always lying. You're constantly ascribing motives to others that you yourself possess, because that's how you imagine everyone is.
Same thing happens to the person who is always truthful. Some folks around the world can't conceive of Russian barbarity because they don't follow events that closely, and they can't conceive that a populace would be this evil. But here we are. 

The current phrasing is “every accusation is a confession.”

[SL Xpress 7,518]

3 hours ago, KYHorn said:

 

 

 

I know we know it, but I wanted to emphasize that kidnapping 6000 Ukrainian children and bragging on national TV that you've adopted one as the Russian Children's Rights Commissioner is completely evil. Not sure it could be worse if she turns out to be a pedophile. Probably is. 

[SL Xpress 7,518]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Russia is relying on Belarus to produce and supply SU-25s, a 40 year-old aircraft.  After Russia helps them get setup.

Imagine if Mexico announced that it was going to start building and supplying A-10s to help America out.

To be more accurate, imagine Mexico's economy was 1/15th the size it actually is, and its population 1/10 its actual size. 

Mexico is a manufacturing juggernaut compared to Belarus, and is way closer to Russia's population (126m v 140m) than tiny Belarus (14m). This is so inconsequential it's difficult to come up with a good analogy. Maybe if we decided to rely on Ecuador? I don't know. Honestly, I think it's more about crafting a narrative domestically "we're not in this alone." Because other than that, it really doesn't matter at all. 

[atomheartbevo 89,788]

34 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

Mexico is a manufacturing juggernaut compared to Belarus, and is way closer to Russia's population (126m v 140m) than tiny Belarus (14m). This is so inconsequential it's difficult to come up with a good analogy. Maybe if we decided to rely on Ecuador? I don't know. Honestly, I think it's more about crafting a narrative domestically "we're not in this alone." Because other than that, it really doesn't matter at all. 

It's telling that Belarus still won't commit troops, because you know Putin has begged them to.  Even in our misguided venture in Iraq 2003, we had quite a few allies who were actually in it with us.  Russia has possibly some North Koreans (although last I heard they were going to be used for manual labor for the Russian army), and some random foreigners in Wagoner, but they couldn't get Belarus to commit troops.  Similar to them not getting the Chinese to cough up tanks or helicopters or fighters.

Speaking of Wagoner, this was posted in response to the tweet Schulz mentioned about Wagoner getting desperate and begging for ammo

 

[956 Worldwide 34,755]

55 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

I know we know it, but I wanted to emphasize that kidnapping 6000 Ukrainian children and bragging on national TV that you've adopted one as the Russian Children's Rights Commissioner is completely evil. Not sure it could be worse if she turns out to be a pedophile. Probably is. 

Here is the Conflict Observatory report. It’s pretty harrowing and grotesque stuff. It seems most (by no means all, and one is too many) kids have been returned.  The Russian government yanked them out of their homes to send them to “reeducation” camps for a while. Pure Red Dawn type shit. 
 

Quote

More than 6,000 children in Russia’s custody: Yale HRL has collected information about at least 6,000 children from Ukraine ages four months to 17 years who have been held at camps and other facilities since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine on 24 February 2022. Arrivals to these facilities began in February 2022; the most recent transfers occurred in January 2023. The total number of children is not known and is likely significantly higher than 6,000.

At least 43 facilities in network: The network spans at least 43 facilities identified by Yale HRL, 41 of which are pre-existing summer camps in Russia-occupied Crimea and Russia. Among the camps, 12 are clustered around the Black Sea, 7 are in occupied Crimea, and 10 are clustered around the cities of Moscow, Kazan, and Yekaterinburg. Eleven of the camps are located over 500 miles from Ukraine’s border with Russia, including two camps in Siberia and one in Russia’s Far East. The exact number of facilities is likely significantly higher than the 43 identified in this report. Yale HRL identified two facilities associated with the deportation of orphans: a psychiatric hospital, and a family center. 

Network of children’s facilities stretches from Russia-occupied Crimea to Russia’s eastern coast:The furthest camp this investigation identifies is in Magadan oblast in Russia’s Far East near the Pacific Ocean, approximately 3,900 miles from Ukraine’s border with the Russian Federation. The camp in Magadan is roughly three times closer to the United States than it is to the border of Ukraine. 

Primary purpose of the camps appears to be political re-education: At least 32 (78%) of the camps identified by Yale HRL appear engaged in systematic re-education efforts that expose children from Ukraine to Russia-centric academic, cultural, patriotic, and/or military education. Multiple camps endorsed by the Russian Federation are advertised as “integration programs”, with the apparent goal of integrating children from Ukraine into the Russian government’s vision of national culture, history, and society.

Children from two of the camps have been placed with foster families in Russia: Yale HRL identified at least two camps that hosted children alleged to be orphans who were later placed with foster families in Russia. Twenty children from these camps were reported to have been placed with families in Moscow oblast and enrolled in local schools there.

Consent is collected under duress and routinely violated: Consent gathered from parents for their child to attend a camp included signing over power of attorney in some cases, including to an unnamed agent. Other parents allege that the specific elements of the consent they gave were violated, such as the term of stay and procedures for reuniting with their children. Still other parents allegedly refused to allow their children to go to camps, but were ignored by camp organizers who enrolled the children in camps regardless. In many cases, the ability of parents to provide meaningful consent may be considered doubtful, as the conditions of war and implicit threat from occupying forces represent conditions of duress. 

Children’s returns from at least four camps have been suspended:In approximately 10% of camps identified by Yale HRL, children’s return to Ukraine was allegedly suspended. At two camps, Artek and Medvezhonok, children’s returns were suspended indefinitely, according to parents. Medvezhonok is one of the largest camps identified, at one point hosting at least 300 children from Ukraine. Officials there originally told the children’s parents they would return at the end of summer, but later rescinded the date of return. Hundreds of children from Ukraine from at least two other camps, Luchistyi and Orlyonok, have been or are being held past their scheduled date of return; Yale HRL has been unable to identify how many of these children have been reunited with their parents. Parents also described being unable to get information about their child’s status or whereabouts after their return has been suspended. It is unknown how many of Ukraine’s children Russia currently holds and how many have been released to their families. 

All levels of Russia’s government are involved: This operation is centrally coordinated by Russia’s federal government and involves every level of government. Yale HRL has identified several dozen federal, regional, and local figures directly engaged in operating and politically justifying the program. Activities of officials allegedly implicated in the operation include logistical coordination (i.e., transporting children), raising funds, collecting supplies, direct camp management, and promoting the program within Russia and occupied areas of Ukraine. At least 12 of these individuals are not on U.S. and/or international sanction lists at the time of this report.

https://hub.conflictobservatory.org/portal/apps/sites/#/home/pages/children-camps-1

[956 Worldwide 34,755]

7 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

It's telling that Belarus still won't commit troops, because you know Putin has begged them to.  Even in our misguided venture in Iraq 2003, we had quite a few allies who were actually in it with us.  Russia has possibly some North Koreans (although last I heard they were going to be used for manual labor for the Russian army), and some random foreigners in Wagoner, but they couldn't get Belarus to commit troops.  Similar to them not getting the Chinese to cough up tanks or helicopters or fighters.

Speaking of Wagoner, this was posted in response to the tweet Schulz mentioned about Wagoner getting desperate and begging for ammo

 

I have come around to a slightly different conclusion on Belarus forces.  I think introducing Belarusian troops to the battlefield and active hostilities opens the door for a pain point that Putin is not willing to deal with— namely, how does Russia respond to a military response by NATO nations against Belarus. Unlike NATO, and maybe counterintuitively, Russia is in no way explicitly treaty bound to come to Belarus’ aid. Belarus does not lie under Moscow’s nuclear umbrella, unless Putin decides it does. And it would be mighty tempting to push the limits and go after Belarus as a test case if they decided to act aggressively. 
 

A NATO  state (say, Poland?) intervening in Belarus introduces all kinds of questions and risks about Russian credibility with no good answers and lots of ways up the ladder of escalation. Putin badly wants to avoid a direct confrontation with NATO and he’d be forced to choose between bad options of defending Belarus (and distracting from Ukraine) or backing down and losing.  
 

 

[MillerEP 30,495]

https://apple.news/A-uv01xBFTweEMjnIJlVHkg

[956 Worldwide 34,755]

5 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

Yes, and no..   Most of us are college-educated, decently-traveled, and for whatever reason, seem to trend from our 40s into our 60s, which means most of us grew up with the Soviet Union/Russia being the big bad guy (and Putin proving that continues to be the case) and we grew up with the idea of not being able to trust the Soviets/Russia. It also means a lot of us have seen a lot of bullshit in our lives (helped by being college football fans). A lot of us have some kind of military experience, or have worked with the government in some capacity (even if just business dealings), have read our fair share of Tom Clancy, etc. novels (a staple in the late 80s and into the 90s), and are well-read (outside of fiction) etc. and so are into this stuff more than most people.

Most of us have also been around on various message boards, BBSes, usenet, etc. going back decades, so we have seen a lot of bullshit, a lot of misinformation, and not just because we are college football fans and used to people pushing misinformation to try and milk $9.95 a month out of us, but it sure as hell helps to be exposed to college football "journalism" and fan sites that are pushing this or that latest recruiting scoop or conference realignment talk or whatever - many of us can smell the bullshit.

So from that perspective, yes, this is an echo chamber in that we have we have a lot of common/shared experiences, even if they weren't identical.

Except that it's hard to put us in any specific echo chamber - I'd say we have a lot broader worldview than most people and we are more than happy to look elsewhere from information - because of our longevity, our interests, the forums we used to communicate online (such as Surly) we've been forced to look at perspectives we might not have considered, and again, most of us are old enough to remember Soviet/Russian propaganda from the 80s and earlier and we see it rearing its ugly head in 2022 and 2023.  

We are also used to doing actual research, whether it's academic or business-related, tracking airplanes for potential head football coaches, or even hobby-related.  This thread is proof - plenty of us have mentioned going down various rabbit holes on podcasts, books, interviews, etc. in reading about what's going on in Ukraine (including the Australian guy's hour-long YouTube videos doing deep dives on obscure or mundane stuff).

The true echo chamber residents are people like Elon Musk or my Qanon in-law who automatically buy into bullshit that some anonymous person mentioned in a tweet, or older people who get their views from talking heads on TV - these people are looking for confirmation bias and nothing more, either because they can't analyze complex scenarios or thoughts, or because they are too lazy to do so.  These people buy into the bullshit Nordsteam conspiracy theory that Hersh is pushing, even though multiple people dug into that story and disproved it quickly.  They have the attitude of "Oh Hersh had something to do with Watergate so he's respectable and he's breaking free of the mainstream media and doing his own thing" because, again, confirmation bias - they need to believe him.  They don't stop to think that A) we have no reason to bomb pipelines we had already been getting shut down with economic sanctions and B) they should look at what he actually said (or look to people who looked into what he said). The problem with those types is that they are easy to fool, and extremely hard to convince that they've been fooled. 

There’s some room for people to claim that Ukraine isn’t being wholly transparent and in fact they aren’t. They shouldn’t be. Ukraine is in a war of national survival where morale and opsec is vital. Doing things like releasing casualty statistics down to the individual, or what equipment is destroyed, or the exact level of control at the front would be exceedingly stupid and harmful. Lots of people confuse the fact that Ukraine has legitimate reasons to hide information with Ukraine being dishonest. Ukraine isn’t the U.S. in Iraq or Afghanistan, losing this one means losing Ukraine and we have to accept that we won’t have perfect insight into the facts on the ground. 
 

A lot of people go a step further and look to Russia and Russia-affiliated sources to fill in gaps and get “the other side.” The problem here is that Ukraine and Allies are generally honest but not going to tell you EVERYTHING. Russia will appear to tell you everything but they are complete fabulists. This isn’t a debate between two different viewpoints—- one side is just plain lying. 
 

So in some sense, you can say that the only reliable stream of information is from people who want Ukraine to win and are selective about what they say.  The “other side” is simply unreliable at every level. You’ll have to accept some level of ambiguity unless you’re getting the Daily Brief. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[KYHorn 17,154]

 

 

 

[KYHorn 17,154]

 

 

 

[KYHorn 17,154]

Many positive developments coming out of Munich. We took a large bipartisan delegation, including Schumer and McConnell.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by KYHorn

[statsman 5,478]

4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s some room for people to claim that Ukraine isn’t being wholly transparent and in fact they aren’t. They shouldn’t be. Ukraine is in a war of national survival where morale and opsec is vital. Doing things like releasing casualty statistics down to the individual, or what equipment is destroyed, or the exact level of control at the front would be exceedingly stupid and harmful. Lots of people confuse the fact that Ukraine has legitimate reasons to hide information with Ukraine being dishonest. Ukraine isn’t the U.S. in Iraq or Afghanistan, losing this one means losing Ukraine and we have to accept that we won’t have perfect insight into the facts on the ground. 
 

A lot of people go a step further and look to Russia and Russia-affiliated sources to fill in gaps and get “the other side.” The problem here is that Ukraine and Allies are generally honest but not going to tell you EVERYTHING. Russia will appear to tell you everything but they are complete fabulists. This isn’t a debate between two different viewpoints—- one side is just plain lying. 
 

So in some sense, you can say that the only reliable stream of information is from people who want Ukraine to win and are selective about what they say.  The “other side” is simply unreliable at every level. You’ll have to accept some level of ambiguity unless you’re getting the Daily Brief. 

I can’t help myself. I read the comments posted on WSJ articles. Fully half are by clear Russian trolls (they use names from 1940’s Hollywood scripts- last name is also an Anglo first name, poor use of English) and they just hammer the Russian agitprop. 
The other half of the posters (me included) complain and call them out, but it’s pretty annoying and makes it difficult to actually have an honest discussion. 

[KYHorn 17,154]

Outside Bakhmut

 

 

[Armybrat 40,896]

10 hours ago, KYHorn said:

The guy above Putin's left shoulder was killed in Ukraine.

 

Top Russian spy colonel for Vladimir Putin and celebrated paratrooper killed in Ukraine

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-russia-spy-putin-killed-b2284688.html

Fragged by mobiks?

[KYHorn 17,154]

 

 

[Trey3216 15,355]

11 hours ago, KYHorn said:

 

 

 

Mr Colonel General wears the face of a man that knows his promotion means he’s already dead.   

[statsman 5,478]

As to Russia’s “shock and awe”- I hope that the shock is that they are still pushing a big offensive with a shortage of guided cruise missiles and the awe is that they’re willing to sub vulnerable (and previously held back) airplanes for the packed cruise missiles. 
 
Does Russia have any enemies that are just waiting for them to deplete their cruise missiles and airplanes to grab something small and strategic?

[Armybrat 40,896]

5 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s some room for people to claim that Ukraine isn’t being wholly transparent and in fact they aren’t. They shouldn’t be. Ukraine is in a war of national survival where morale and opsec is vital. Doing things like releasing casualty statistics down to the individual, or what equipment is destroyed, or the exact level of control at the front would be exceedingly stupid and harmful. Lots of people confuse the fact that Ukraine has legitimate reasons to hide information with Ukraine being dishonest. Ukraine isn’t the U.S. in Iraq or Afghanistan, losing this one means losing Ukraine and we have to accept that we won’t have perfect insight into the facts on the ground. 
 

A lot of people go a step further and look to Russia and Russia-affiliated sources to fill in gaps and get “the other side.” The problem here is that Ukraine and Allies are generally honest but not going to tell you EVERYTHING. Russia will appear to tell you everything but they are complete fabulists. This isn’t a debate between two different viewpoints—- one side is just plain lying. 
 

So in some sense, you can say that the only reliable stream of information is from people who want Ukraine to win and are selective about what they say.  The “other side” is simply unreliable at every level. You’ll have to accept some level of ambiguity unless you’re getting the Daily Brief. 

Correct.

I remember up until the mid-1950s the US government maintained that American KIA casualties numbered about 260,000, when it in fact was over 400,000. Don’t recall exactly when the true number was quietly revealed.

[KYHorn 17,154]

Ufa is a Russian city.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by KYHorn

[cactusflinthead 27,601]

 

[MissingInAction 25,178]

Looking forward to headlines like this:

50k Polish military personnel released for budgetary reasons.

In unrelated news Ukraine rushes 50k freshly trained troops to the front.

[Slacks 6,862]

13 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I worked at a large tech company for a decade, that used stack ranking.  Generally speaking, it was absolutely shit for morale and performance and teamwork.  As an employee, you don't want to pick teams/groups where everybody is tight with the manager or solid performers, you want a team/group where you know you'll be the absolutely top.  You don't want to necessarily make other employees look good because it might help them look better than during their evaluations.  As a manager, when you bring people onto a team or into a group, if you are happy with everybody already there, then you are hiring somebody that you know you will be giving a bad evaluation, so you don't give a shit about developing/mentoring them.  If you have nothing but top performers on your team/in your group, then you will be forced to give somebody a shitty evaluation for no reason other than the system requires you to give somebody a bad eval.  So you can't build a team of top performers who are all working towards the same goal, you are hiring people who are going to be competing against one another, and you will have to hire people that you already know you will be giving bad evals to.  It was fucking shit.

I fucking hated this where I spent half my career. I only got top ranked on e or twice because of a lady who was friends with her manager and the 2nd line Director. They didn't call her when shit was critical. They called me. Eventually I got promoted and she didn't, but she made more money. 

So, f fake stack ranks... And I guess f Russia, too.

[statsman 5,478]

As mentioned, I think Ukraine is executing a “rope a dope” strategy. Russia is the dope, and they are going to spend a lot of men (and again, Russia really doesn’t care about the first 40,000 or so- convicts, unemployed, ethnic minorities), missiles, tanks and aircraft, and stall out on Ukrainian defenses. Then, Ukraine gets the tanks and Bradley’s, and pushes them back. 
 
The bad news about “rope a dope” is that you get the shit beat out of you before you knock down the dope. Ukraine is taking a hell of a lot of punishment. 
 
And, what then? There is something not being said in all this. We all recognize, Ukraine more than anyone, that they would not be in this situation if they had not sold the nukes back 25 years ago. If I were Zelensky, I’d have a quiet nuclear bomb program going. It would be just for defensive purposes, and the initial delivery device might have to be something like the drones they used on the Russian AF base. Ukraine has some serious physics and engineering talent- it’s very do-able. That would be the way to enforce whatever borders they end up with. And it would all be Putin’s fault. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by statsman

[atomheartbevo 89,788]

32 minutes ago, Slacks said:

I fucking hated this where I spent half my career. I only got top ranked on e or twice because of a lady who was friends with her manager and the 2nd line Director. They didn't call her when shit was critical. They called me. Eventually I got promoted and she didn't, but she made more money. 

So, f fake stack ranks... And I guess f Russia, too.

[Orange&White 5,539]

8 hours ago, MillerEP said:

https://apple.news/A-uv01xBFTweEMjnIJlVHkg

This is a great read and unsurprisingly, it just feels like a wrap up of this thread. Like if you wanted to give someone the cliff notes of this entire thread, just send them this link.