Русский корабль - иди нахуй

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ghost of LL said:

Because we objected so loudly when the Soviet Union looted eastern Germany (and Poland, and Czechoslovakia, and Hungary)?

Ukraine is rapidly getting to the point where it receives the treatment from the United States that has historically been reserved only for Israel.  We arm it.  It does whatever the fuck it wants.  And then we run interference for it whenever anyone in the international community objects.

The difference is that Russia has nuclear weapons, and the Palestinian Authority (happily) doesn't.  But as I think we've seen, there are no red lines.  If Russia were willing to use nuclear weapons to defend its state borders, it would've done so already.  It hasn't.  And it won't.  And that means that Ukraine can take whatever it wants.  And it means that the United States will provide cover in the international community for Ukraine taking whatever it wants.

I very strongly view Ukraine as the lesser of two evils. We will pay down the road for unfettered support, a la Saddam or certain Afghans. 

[Schulz2.0 28761]

 

[PTINS 3442]

2 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

This isn't correct. The water level never exceeded Addick's spillway. Water did escape around the north end of the dam, but that isn't the same as rising above the spillway. Water level topped out at 109', the spillway is 112'-115'.  

Thank you.

I knew that water was free flowing out of the reservoir; I didn't realize the earthen were a lower elevation at the ends.  

 

[Dahobbs 17420]

4 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I very strongly view Ukraine as the lesser of two evils. We will pay down the road for unfettered support, a la Saddam or certain Afghans. 

How exactly is Ukraine an evil? 

[The Dog 43785]

and the clown car update:

 

[Schulz2.0 28761]

 

[Rimbo 25766]

49 minutes ago, Eastwood said:

I have serious doubts that Russia would have used nukes already. I think there are two possible scenarios as to why. One being that it has been made abundantly clear to Putin that any nuclear explosion of Russian origin on European territory, even Russia’s own territory, would merit a nuclear response from NATO. The other being that Russia’s show of force has been to abysmal, so third-worldly, that Putin has serious doubts as to whether their nuclear arsenal is actually functional. 
 

If Russia had a failed nuclear attack that was an absolute dud or even a fizzle, then you would see their satellites start nibbling at the edges taking territory and likely Putin would be assassinated. Fear of Russia’s nuclear arsenal is way more powerful than that arsenal’s capabilities, at this point. 

I don't think Putin has any clue what's actually going on any more.

I think he's completely up his own asshole to the point he thinks his pancreas is Crimea, and he's ordering attacks on his own stomach lining.

[Schulz2.0 28761]

 

[956 Worldwide 34411]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

Out of curiosity, in regards to the back and forth between myself and @Ghost of LL, how do you think American and the international community would react to the AFU occupying large swaths of Russia and looting it as form of reparations? LL, if I've misrepresented your position, please correct me. 

I think that a lot depends on what we are talking about. I’ve never gotten the sense that there’s a a MORAL qualm about Ukraine striking back against Russia on Russian soil, it’s more a fear of the escalation ladder you go up as that happens. But each incursion turns the dial down on that. 
 

If AFU were to move into and occupy parts of Russian territory as they simultaneously tried to push Russia out of recognized Ukraine? If they engaged with and tied down Russian forces that might otherwise fight in Ukraine, and if they consistently held that they were ready to withdraw as part of a settlement that included Russian withdrawal and assurances not to invade again? I think that there wouldn’t be moral outrage, I think that there would be sweaty brows in the situation room about how Putin might respond. 
 

But they’d need to follow the rules of war— allow civilians to evacuate, take appropriate care not to damage civilian infrastructure pointlessly, and certainly no looting or carrying away stuff in the name of reparations. That stuff gets hashed out as a settlement. And for damn sure not annexing or declaring Russian territory part of Ukraine now. 
 

I don’t see the World War II Soviet analogy as relevant because none of the other Allies had the same sort of control and leverage over the USSR. 
 

TL;DR, attacking or incurring into Russian territory as part of a battlefield campaign to recapture their own territory and win the war might be OK providing they followed standard rules of conflict. 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

15 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I very strongly view Ukraine as the lesser of two evils. We will pay down the road for unfettered support, a la Saddam or certain Afghans. 

You’re a moron, Rex.

[AUS-97HORN 11669]

3 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

 

 

Whudda thunk that Russian land mines act like fireants during flooding???

[Gatorubet 30083]

13 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

How exactly is Ukraine an evil? 

Hunter. Bid….    I dunno. 

[Rimbo 25766]

23 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I very strongly view Ukraine as the lesser of two evils. We will pay down the road for unfettered support, a la Saddam or certain Afghans. 

negged

I've known too many Russians and too many Ukrainians to even remotely agree with this

the Ukrainians I've known have been friendly and capable

the Russians have been drunks

Edited June 6, 2023 by Rimbo

[956 Worldwide 34411]

21 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I very strongly view Ukraine as the lesser of two evils. We will pay down the road for unfettered support, a la Saddam or certain Afghans. 

What is the evil that Ukraine has inflicted on anyone, especially outside their own borders? Please spell it out? 

[Rimbo 25766]

9 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

wouldn't that make the mines easier to find and disarm, though?

[MissingInAction 24807]

11 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

You’re a moron, Rex.

I thought I recognized that special brand of dumb fuckery. Thanks.

[The Dog 43785]

^ on the left bank (Russian-controlled) side.

[Gatorubet 30083]

9 minutes ago, The Dog said:

^ on the left bank (Russian-controlled) side.

They need to do what they need to do.

[MillerEP 30339]

45 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I very strongly view Ukraine as the lesser of two evils. We will pay down the road for unfettered support, a la Saddam or certain Afghans. 

The stated goal is a Ukraine within the EU and within NATO. What evils do you foresee? EU and NATO turning on itself?

[Parliament 14121]

6 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

. What evils do you foresee? 

The EU taking over the World and banning Tacos

 

[atomheartbevo 89396]

1 hour ago, Eastwood said:

If Russia had a failed nuclear attack that was an absolute dud or even a fizzle, then you would see their satellites start nibbling at the edges taking territory and likely Putin would be assassinated. Fear of Russia’s nuclear arsenal is way more powerful than that arsenal’s capabilities, at this point. 

And once they've used a nuke, dud or not, it no longer has the power that it did before.

If they use a nuke, everybody is going to assume they will do it again, and act accordingly, which means going after Putin and the other leadership, and whatever backdoors we have in all of their networks are probably fully expoited.

And all of the sanctions we've applied against Russia are now applied to anybody doing any serious business with Russia, which includes China and India. The kinds of economic sanctions that we applied to Russia, if the US alone applied them to China, we'd cripple their economy, but toss in the EU and a lot of the major Asian economic powers. I expect that Iran gets hit by one or more countries.

The UN probably starts getting serious and removing them from various positions, but that will be insignificant compared to the other stuff, but it'll diminish Russia's place in the world (they are still proud of their place in the UN).

 

[atomheartbevo 89396]

47 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I very strongly view Ukraine as the lesser of two evils. We will pay down the road for unfettered support, a la Saddam or certain Afghans.

 

Certain Afghans wanted to take Afghanistan back to the 1400s.  Saddam wanted to murder anybody he didn't like, and wasn't concerned with joining civilized society.

Meanwhile, Ukraine is doing everything they can to join the EU, NATO, etc., and in general, remain in the civilized world.

Totally comparable.

 

[MissingInAction 24807]

1 hour ago, Porterhouse said:

I very strongly view Ukraine as the lesser of two evils. We will pay down the road for unfettered support, a la Saddam or certain Afghans. 

How do you and Mullet Free post while jerking each other off?

[Pig Bellmont 8691]

1 hour ago, Porterhouse said:

I very strongly view Ukraine as the lesser of two evils. We will pay down the road for unfettered support, a la Saddam or certain Afghans. 

[gmr548 16481]

 

An interesting thesis but at this point I’m not sure I buy Russian leadership even got to the level of strategic thinking/planning where water would enter the discussion. I think their motives for Ukraine lie backwards in time, not forward.

[SydneyCarton 47836]

20 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

The stated goal is a Ukraine within the EU and within NATO. What evils do you foresee? EU and NATO turning on itself?

I'll tell you what evils he foresees..or maybe I should say...projects/hopes to see. What he's going for is anything that would likely justify his quietly help position of "I KNEW that we shouldn't have aided Ukraine" at some later date. 

[MillerEP 30339]

 

[Deej 76524]

6 minutes ago, MissingInAction said:

How do you and Mullet Free post while jerking each other off?

They aren't jerking each other off. They are going ass to ass with a double-ended dildo, while furiously posting.

[Skipper 6100]

7 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'll tell you what evils he foresees..or maybe I should say...projects/hopes to see. What he's going for is anything that would likely justify his quietly help position of "I KNEW that we shouldn't have aided Ukraine" at some later date. 

Not defending Porterhouse statement but Shady Ray, back when he was active in this thread pre-war, articulated what a clusterfuck (i.e., corrupt) country Ukraine was and how independent evaluations his company performed for potential business investment = don't touch with a 10 foot pole.  That being said, I'm guessing if he were still active he would be surprised at how the country came together in a time of crisis.  Clearly we all underestimated them.  Who knows what that means for post-war.  Maybe there is a messy power-struggle in an independent Ukraine.  But lesser of 2 evils clearly not the best description.  Russia clearly stands alone in that comparison.

Edited June 6, 2023 by Skipper

[atomheartbevo 89396]

2 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Not defending Porterhouse statement but Shady Ray, back when he was active in this thread pre-war, articulated what a clusterfuck (i.e., corrupt) country Ukraine was and how independent evaluations his company performed for potential business investment = don't touch with a 10 foot pole.  That being said, I'm guessing if he were still active he would be surprised at how the country came together in a time of crisis.  Clearly we all underestimated them.  Who knows what that means for post-war.  Maybe there is a messy power-struggle in an independent Ukraine.  But lesser of 2 evils clearly not the best description.  Russia clearly stands alone in that comparison.

There were problems, and people openly acknowledge it, but the Russian influence, which was 95% of the problem with Ukraine's past corruption, will be mostly gone, and/or is already waning, by the time this is wrapped up.

[SydneyCarton 47836]

4 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Not defending Porterhouse statement but Shady Ray, back when he was active in this thread pre-war, articulated what a clusterfuck (i.e., corrupt) country Ukraine was and how independent evaluations his company performed for potential business investment = don't touch with a 10 foot pole.  That being said, I'm guessing if he were still active he would be surprised at how the country came together in a time of crisis.  Clearly we all underestimated them.  Who knows what that means for post-war.  Maybe there is a messy power-struggle in an independent Ukraine.  But lesser of 2 evils clearly not the best description.  Russia clearly stands alone in that comparison.

We all know Ukraine was corrupt. We all know Ukraine is STILL corrupt. Lets not pretend that having been so closely associated with Russia and the Soviet Union didn't put stupid shit into some of their DNA. The difference is that they have TWICE now fought for freedom, real freedom, and as you said they've come together. There will still be a ton of work to do rooting out the corruption even if the war ended tomorrow on the unconditional surrender of Russia. But they want to be better. That is more than Russia has ever wanted.

 

[Rimbo 25766]

32 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Certain Afghans wanted to take Afghanistan back to the 1400s. 

 

[Rimbo 25766]

18 minutes ago, Skipper said:

Not defending Porterhouse statement but Shady Ray, back when he was active in this thread pre-war, articulated what a clusterfuck (i.e., corrupt) country Ukraine was and how independent evaluations his company performed for potential business investment = don't touch with a 10 foot pole.  That being said, I'm guessing if he were still active he would be surprised at how the country came together in a time of crisis.  Clearly we all underestimated them.  Who knows what that means for post-war.  Maybe there is a messy power-struggle in an independent Ukraine.  But lesser of 2 evils clearly not the best description.  Russia clearly stands alone in that comparison.

And here's the thing about wartime martial law: It gives you the opportunity to clean house.

You'd also like to join the EU and NATO, so there's your motive.

And guys have been getting shitcanned in the Ukraine government.

This isn't the Ukraine of last year.

We can rebuild it.

[Rimbo 25766]

I want really mad, merely bothered, about the dam blowing up until I saw this photo.

Now I'm fucking pissed.

Moscow needs to be glowing in the dark by this time tomorrow.

[Foosters 17725]

To be fair to Rex, the Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) has Ukraine ranked around other dastardly regimes like The Dominican Republic, Mexico, and Bolivia. 

[MissingInAction 24807]

33 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

I want really mad, merely bothered, about the dam blowing up until I saw this photo.

Now I'm fucking pissed.

Moscow needs to be glowing in the dark by this time tomorrow.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Rimbo said:

negged

I've known too many Russians and too many Ukrainians to even remotely agree with this

the Ukrainians I've known have been friendly and capable

the Russians have been drunks

I don’t like Russians and will refrain from commenting further until I read the thread more. Just as your view has somewhat been shaped by the above anecdote, mine has somewhat as well by my former SEAL buddy (still a reservist that trains active duty SEALs).  

I’m not trying to be contrarian and it sounds like the consensus thinks I’m ill-informed and I probably am. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Porterhouse

[Bevo 13516]

31 minutes ago, Foosters said:

To be fair to Rex, the Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) has Ukraine ranked around other dastardly regimes like The Dominican Republic, Mexico, and Bolivia. 

Well they are all pretty but... Dominican Republic, Mexico, and Bolivia all have shitty governments. And Bolivia is freaking landlocked.

[Foosters 17725]

Just now, Bevo said:

Well they are all pretty but... Dominican Republic, Mexico, and Bolivia all have shitty governments. And Bolivia is freaking landlocked.

They also have the letter "i" in their names. What is your point?

[The Dog 43785]

[Bevo 13516]

1 minute ago, Foosters said:

They also have the letter "i" in their names. What is your point?

Thanks. You made my point for me.

[Rimbo 25766]

10 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Thanks. You made my point for me.

[PTINS 3442]

12 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

We all know Ukraine was corrupt. We all know Ukraine is STILL corrupt. Lets not pretend that having been so closely associated with Russia and the Soviet Union didn't put stupid shit into some of their DNA. The difference is that they have TWICE now fought for freedom, real freedom, and as you said they've come together. There will still be a ton of work to do rooting out the corruption even if the war ended tomorrow on the unconditional surrender of Russia. But they want to be better. That is more than Russia has ever wanted.

 

After Ukraine finishes kicking the stuffings out of Russia,  I think their appetite to continue with the old way of doing business is going to be damn near zero. 

I read about WWII and America's Greatest Generation. We have the luxury and the privilege of seeing Ukraine's Greatest Generation at their best.

Beginning with, "I don't need a ride, I need ammunition!", and every day since, Ukraine's resolve has brought out the best in so many others. The effect it has had on the civilized world is something to be appreciated.   The leadership of smaller European countries and the EU (Sanna, Kaja, Giorgia, Annalena, Ursula, & others) have stood up and made you listen, shaming the old guard leadership and their dumb-assery western politics, to stop their dicking around and do what's right.  That broad coalition of support for Ukraine will continue through Ukraine's reconstruction.

The Ukrainians, each of which have made sacrifices for their freedom, in the name of good v. evil, have worked side by side with the best of the best, working with the various NATO militaries.  They have clear examples to follow of doing things right, from Prime Ministers to privates (ok, NCO's), and a clear contrast to the old way of doing things. Those skills will translate to civilian life. They are and will be totally dependent on Western support for some time, and I believe they know what and how they have to do things to keep it.

I cannot see them backsliding to where they came from.

Your welcome.

Sanna Marin

  

Kaja Kallas

 
Giorgia Meloni

 

Annalena Baerbock

Ursula von der Leyen

 

[AUS-97HORN 11669]

22 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I don’t like Russians and will refrain from commenting further until I read the thread more. Just as your view has somewhat been shaped by the above anecdote, mine has somewhat as well by my former SEAL buddy (still a reservist that trains active duty SEALs).  

I’m not trying to be contrarian and it sounds like the consensus thinks I’m ill-informed and I probably am. 

and if your reservist seal buddy is talking from his personal experience based on the country pre Feb 2022, his opinion is his to keep.    I fully believe that any American servicement dealing with Ukraine up until 17 months ago was heavily influenced by the overall corruption of the country to that point.

 

The mindset of Ukraine changed mightily on Feb 24 2022.   Maybe even more so a week later when it became obvious that the drive to Kyiv wasnt going to succeed, and that the country's leadership didnt run, they stayed.   Corrupt leaders would have fucking left the country.

So unless you are telling us your special super secret seal buddy has been in active fucking duty dealing with/ training or support Ukrainian soldiers and people over the last 17 months his opinion is honestly invalidated by newer events.

 

As others have said, numerous Ukrainian officials have been arrested/ removed from office since the invasions. They were declared traitors for acts that aided Russian intelligence or army.  They are actively being rooted out and replaced with significantly less corrupt folks (notice I didnt say incorruptible).

 

Its not that I am saying your buddy's opinion is bullshit, Im saying its out of date due to recent events. 

 

[MillerEP 30339]

 

[Bevo 13516]

How long will it take for the water to subside?

[PTINS 3442]

expert reaction to reported attack on Ukraine’s Kakhovka dam

It has been reported that the Nova Kakhovka dam in the Russian-controlled area of southern Ukraine has collapsed.

Prof Tom Scott, Professor of Materials,  UK Centre of Expertise for Uranium and Reactive Metals, University of Bristol, said:

“Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant is safe, as the IAEA has said: there is a huge amount of water stored at ZNPP with its own full cooling pond, 18 more backup pools of water and 18 mobile pumping units. It needs very little water because all the reactors have been shut down for more than eight months. Based on our current understanding of the situation, the risks posed by this incident on ZNPP are actually very limited at this point in time.”

Dr Mohammad Heidarzadeh, Department of Architecture and Civil Engineering, University of Bath, said:

“The Kakhovka dam is one of the biggest dams in the world in terms of reservoir capacity, with an enormous reservoir water capacity of approximately 18 billion cubic meters. For comparison, it is 90 times bigger than the largest dam reservoir in the UK. It is obvious that the failure of this dam will definitely have extensive long-term ecological and environmental negative consequences not only for Ukraine but for neighbouring countries and regions.

“From a structural point of view, the dam is an embankment (also known as earthfill) dam which means the dam is basically made of gravel and rock with a clay core in the middle as its water-sealing element. Sadly, these types of dams are extremely vulnerable, and are usually washed away quickly in case of a partial breach. And this is the reason that the dam is already completely washed away." 

Prof Philip Thomas, Visiting Academic Professor, University of Bristol, said:

“The Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Station is upstream of the Kakhovka dam that has just been blown, and so will not be flooded.   The engineers on site should be able to cope with low water levels in the Kakhovka reservoir.  There should not be concern for the safety of the nuclear power station at this time.”

Dr Mark Wenman, Reader in Nuclear Materials, Imperial College London, said:

“All 6 reactors at the plant are in a shut down state.  5/6 of these are in a state known as “cold shutdown” for many months meaning that the processes of radioactive decay in the fuel can no longer heat the water in the reactor vessel.  In layman’s terms this means that the reactors are effectively self-sufficient in terms of water needed to cool them and it simply needs to be circulated around the system.  The 6th reactor is in warm shutdown state meaning it is a bit hotter and is being used to provide steam for use on site and possibly the local area.  Even this reactor will only need minimal cooling however.  Overall the risk to the plant or the fuel cooling ponds is very low indeed.”

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by PTINS
double text.

[kevwun 15608]

I read an estimate of 4-5 days for the lake to finish draining.  I don't think the crest of the flood has happened yet based on that.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

19 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

and if your reservist seal buddy is talking from his personal experience based on the country pre Feb 2022, his opinion is his to keep.    I fully believe that any American servicement dealing with Ukraine up until 17 months ago was heavily influenced by the overall corruption of the country to that point.

 

The mindset of Ukraine changed mightily on Feb 24 2022.   Maybe even more so a week later when it became obvious that the drive to Kyiv wasnt going to succeed, and that the country's leadership didnt run, they stayed.   Corrupt leaders would have fucking left the country.

So unless you are telling us your special super secret seal buddy has been in active fucking duty dealing with/ training or support Ukrainian soldiers and people over the last 17 months his opinion is honestly invalidated by newer events.

 

As others have said, numerous Ukrainian officials have been arrested/ removed from office since the invasions. They were declared traitors for acts that aided Russian intelligence or army.  They are actively being rooted out and replaced with significantly less corrupt folks (notice I didnt say incorruptible).

 

Its not that I am saying your buddy's opinion is bullshit, Im saying its out of date due to recent events. 

 

Didn’t Zelensky basically run on a single issue of wiping out corruption? That would seem to be a pretty strong indication of the country’s desires.

[PTINS 3442]

6 minutes ago, kevwun said:

I read an estimate of 4-5 days for the lake to finish draining.  I don't think the crest of the flood has happened yet based on that.

Kakhovka Reservoir is ~ 60% of the capacity of Lake Mead, or 13x the capacity of Lake Travis.

Kakhovka Reservoir surface area is ~ 832 Sq Miles, ~ 3.4x that of Lake Mead, or 28x the surface area of Lake Travis.