Русский корабль - иди нахуй

[956 Worldwide 34314]

1 hour ago, locodos said:

First of all, I agree.

But the following needs to be considered:

• If you don't believe the US will be paying for cleanup and reconstruction in Ukraine I think you are fooling yourself.  - It's in our best interests to do so, but that's going to be a hard sell to some Americans and demining will be an expensive and long process.
• The US also needs to help Ukraine keep international support for their cause, immediately handing over weapons that have PROVEN to hurt civilians erodes that support.
• America's military power is not seen as a universal force for good that most Americans think it is.  American weapons doing damage and killing kids and farmers for 20 years won't help that image at all.  It won't matter that we supplied them as part of a request from their own people to the families of dead children.  Rockeye is controversial for a reason.  Handing it over has risk to US reputation / soft power.

That said, it looks like after careful consideration we are moving forward.  I applaud the decision and that it was NOT made lightly.

This debate is a great reminder that we (the collective West) cannot remember or comprehend being in a war that we can’t afford to lose.  The cost of cleanup (for Ukraine) has no meaning if they lose this war. And for us, it only has meaning if they win. Because we aren’t going to help Russia clear mines in their new colony. 

[bolverk 29360]

Some big booms

 

 

 

[locodos 5329]

1 minute ago, Gatorubet said:

What makes this extremely annoying is the long running refrain of not enough 155 shells.   We had 1 million of them (albeit cluster) sitting in warehouses, waiting to be eventually destroyed. I understand the consequences to civilians from unexploded cluster ordinance, but I would rather side with Ukrainian de-mining risk than with the possibility of Russians destroying my entire civilization in a genocide. 

It is not even a serious choice when the survival of your country is compared to a “down side” of cleaning up after your country, in fact, survives. 

So what happens if the current lines harden and the Russians have a ready made stockpile of maimed and mangled children to parade in front of the world for the next 20 years all courtesy of American munitions?  

It's not like this war is guaranteed to be a slam-dunk win for either side.  It has to be considered/factored in.  There is a reason we are not all in and patrolling the skies over Ukraine.  Every action has a cost and it's best to think about it ahead of time.

[bolverk 29360]

This must've been amazing in person.

 

[Gatorubet 30064]

3 minutes ago, locodos said:

So what happens if the current lines harden and the Russians have a ready made stockpile of maimed and mangled children to parade in front of the world for the next 20 years all courtesy of American munitions?  

If fighting genocide and rape rooms and torture chambers and stolen children and Russia indiscriminately bombing civilian homes, schools and hospitals isn’t enough reason, which all the world saw, then any rational discussion should not lead to condemnation for their use.   If an irrational discussion, ‘fuck ‘em. 

[bolverk 29360]

More from Zelensky. I'm seriously considering attending an Austin ISD board meeting and insist they find a school to rename after him.

 

 

 

[locodos 5329]

2 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

If fighting genocide and rape rooms and torture chambers and stolen children and Russia indiscriminately bombing civilian homes, schools and hospitals isn’t enough reason, which all the world saw, then any rational discussion should not lead to condemnation for their use.   If an irrational discussion, ‘fuck ‘em. 

The world has seen it.  Why then do you suppose German/French/Spanish/Italian/British/Poland/Sweden/Finland fighters haven't closed the skies over Ukraine and rained hell down on the Orcs?

Because there is a cost benefit equation.  Denying it exists is folly.

[bolverk 29360]

Captured Russian soldier said commanders were high on painkillers and gave 'nonsensical orders' like sending them out under mortar fire

• A Russian soldier told CNN his commanders were high on painkillers and gave nonsensical orders.
• Slava, who was captured by Ukraine, said this included soldiers being sent out under mortar fire.
• He told CNN that he got only two weeks of basic training and Russian soldiers "had no morale."

A captured Russian soldier told CNN that his commanders in Ukraine were high on drugs and gave nonsensical orders that put their men's lives at risk.

The prisoner, identified as Slava, said his commanders would send soldiers out under mortar fire while high on their stock of painkillers.

Slava also described jumping over craters and body parts amid Ukrainian shelling, before being captured in a foxhole south of Bakhmut. It is not clear when this took place.

CNN interviewed Slava and two other Russian soldiers in the presence of Ukrainian soldiers.

The outlet said the captives did not appear to be speaking under duress, and that it did not use their real names to avoid "possible negative consequences upon their return to Russia" and to follow Red Cross guidelines on reporting about prisoners of war.

Slava and Anton, another soldier, said they had just two weeks of basic training before they were deployed.

"We had no morale," Slava added.

Multiple reports have pointed to low morale among Russian troops, including letters left behind by fleeing Russians detailing "moral exhaustion" and "worsening" health.

Russian soldiers have also previously complained about the competence of their commanders.

Both Slava and Anton, who were recruited out of prison, said that everything they had known about the war came from Russian media. Media in Russia is considered to be tightly controlled by President Vladimir Putin.

Anton also described how he planned to kill himself when Ukrainian soldiers reached him, as he expected to be either tortured or executed.

"I switched the rifle to single shot mode, and I thought I would shoot myself. But I couldn't," he told CNN.

Read the original article on Business Insider

[Orange&White 5516]

27 minutes ago, locodos said:

So what happens if the current lines harden and the Russians have a ready made stockpile of maimed and mangled children to parade in front of the world for the next 20 years all courtesy of American munitions?  

It's not like this war is guaranteed to be a slam-dunk win for either side.  It has to be considered/factored in.  There is a reason we are not all in and patrolling the skies over Ukraine.  Every action has a cost and it's best to think about it ahead of time.

Russia has been using cluster munitions since this thing started.

[MillerEP 30339]

Edited July 7, 2023 by MillerEP

[locodos 5329]

13 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

Russia has been using cluster munitions since this thing started.

1. Fuck the Russians
2. and ?

 

[MillerEP 30339]

 

 

 

[statsman 5406]

The secretive security force behind Evan Gershkovich’s arrest is also believed responsible for other strange incidents involving Americans, including the mysterious death of a diplomat’s dog.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/fsb-evan-gershkovich-russia-security-force-dkro-e9cf9a49?st=kn6abdvenzbwfqw&reflink=share_mobilewebshare

[MillerEP 30339]

 

[AUS-97HORN 11654]

1 minute ago, locodos said:

1. Fuck the Russians
2. and ?

 

2. And stop fucking being the devils advocate on this molehill man.

 

 

 

[MagicSoccerSpray 1725]

5 minutes ago, locodos said:

1. Fuck the Russians
2. and ?

 

 

And it's time to stop self-deterring. Like for like imo. You use cluster bombs, we use cluster bombs. Use ballistic missiles, we do too, etc.

Edited July 7, 2023 by MagicSoccerSpray

[locodos 5329]

1 minute ago, AUS-97HORN said:

2. And stop fucking being the devils advocate on this molehill man.

 

 

 

Wat?   I said I agreed with the decision, but that I was glad it was deliberated.   

Do you think the extent and rigor of American foreign policy should be "YOLO bitches!"?

If so, yeah, I'm ready to debate that point.

[Orange&White 5516]

7 minutes ago, locodos said:

1. Fuck the Russians
2. and ?

 

My point is that any maimed and mutilated Ukrainian child could just as easily have been maimed and mutilated by a russian cluster munition than an American munition. The russians are going to do that anyway, no matter if America sends more weapons, so you might as well continue helping Ukraine defeat the russians right now rather than worry about some hypothetical argument that may/may not come after the war is over.

[Parliament 14112]

8 minutes ago, statsman said:

The secretive security force behind Evan Gershkovich’s arrest is also believed responsible for other strange incidents involving Americans, including the mysterious death of a diplomat’s dog.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/fsb-evan-gershkovich-russia-security-force-dkro-e9cf9a49?st=kn6abdvenzbwfqw&reflink=share_mobilewebshare

 

[locodos 5329]

6 minutes ago, Orange&White said:

My point is that any maimed and mutilated Ukrainian child could just as easily have been maimed and mutilated by a russian cluster munition than an American munition. The russians are going to do that anyway, no matter if America sends more weapons, so you might as well continue helping Ukraine defeat the russians right now rather than worry about some hypothetical argument that may/may not come after the war is over.

Fair enough.  I just don't think we should let Russia behavior set our moral standards, which is what I thought you were getting at.

anyways here's some Russians having a bad short day

 

[bolverk 29360]

18 minutes ago, statsman said:

The secretive security force behind Evan Gershkovich’s arrest is also believed responsible for other strange incidents involving Americans, including the mysterious death of a diplomat’s dog.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/fsb-evan-gershkovich-russia-security-force-dkro-e9cf9a49?st=kn6abdvenzbwfqw&reflink=share_mobilewebshare

 

This quote is very true:

“They’re very, very smart on the America target. They’ve been doing this a long time. They know us extremely well,” said Dan Hoffman, a former Central Intelligence Agency station chief in Moscow, about DKRO. “They do their job extremely well, they’re ruthless about doing their job, and they’re not constrained by any resources.”

 

A woman I know pretty dang well (we went to high school together & were FWBs for a while), who worked at the American embassy in Moscow in the 2008-2009 timeframe (she's now at the one in Belgrade), told me when she got back for a summer break she experienced being followed and suspected her flat had been broken into at least once. She said it was a really creepy and vulnerable feeling.

[MillerEP 30339]

 

[MillerEP 30339]

 

[KYHorn 16808]

7 minutes ago, MillerEP said:

 

Additional HIMARS ammunition= ATACMS?

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

2 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

Additional HIMARS ammunition= ATACMS?

Nah, we don’t want them to be able to kill/destroy the soldiers/munitions being used to kill them. Might upset Putin.

[The Dog 43771]

DPICM is the cluster bombs they’ve been asking for.

[Bevo 13493]

8 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

Additional HIMARS ammunition= ATACMS

YOLO bitches!

[Gatorubet 30064]

1 hour ago, locodos said:

The world has seen it.  Why then do you suppose German/French/Spanish/Italian/British/Poland/Sweden/Finland fighters haven't closed the skies over Ukraine and rained hell down on the Orcs?

Because there is a cost benefit equation.  Denying it exists is folly.

i hear ya on cost-benefit Loco. 

I was merely answering your “what do we say for 20 years when kids get hurt when fronts stabilize?” question - not refuting a cost-benefit reality. 

As to closing skies w/ NATO birds, not starting WWIII is never a bad thing if you can help it.   I’m profound on stuff like that. 

[956 Worldwide 34314]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

 

This quote is very true:

“They’re very, very smart on the America target. They’ve been doing this a long time. They know us extremely well,” said Dan Hoffman, a former Central Intelligence Agency station chief in Moscow, about DKRO. “They do their job extremely well, they’re ruthless about doing their job, and they’re not constrained by any resources.”

 

A woman I know pretty dang well (we went to high school together & were FWBs for a while), who worked at the American embassy in Moscow in the 2008-2009 timeframe (she's now at the one in Belgrade), told me when she got back for a summer break she experienced being followed and suspected her flat had been broken into at least once. She said it was a really creepy and vulnerable feeling.

 Being watched and having personal space violated and entered is entry-level shenanigans that all manner of enemies and frenemies will allow themselves to do. 
 

The Russians operate on a different level of hostility and psychological games, including things like killed pets and fun pranks like posing as emergency services and telling people that children and spouses have been killed or maimed in traffic accidents. 
 

The world has awoken somewhat to what the Russian state is. But I cannot stress enough the utter lack of humanity on a personal level the security apparatus is capable of. 

[DDD Dad 14167]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

 

This quote is very true:

“They’re very, very smart on the America target. They’ve been doing this a long time. They know us extremely well,” said Dan Hoffman, a former Central Intelligence Agency station chief in Moscow, about DKRO. “They do their job extremely well, they’re ruthless about doing their job, and they’re not constrained by any resources.”

 

A woman I know pretty dang well (we went to high school together & were FWBs for a while), who worked at the American embassy in Moscow in the 2008-2009 timeframe (she's now at the one in Belgrade), told me when she got back for a summer break she experienced being followed and suspected her flat had been broken into at least once. She said it was a really creepy and vulnerable feeling.

Pics not showing up. 

[956 Worldwide 34314]

1 hour ago, locodos said:

Wat?   I said I agreed with the decision, but that I was glad it was deliberated.   

Do you think the extent and rigor of American foreign policy should be "YOLO bitches!"?

If so, yeah, I'm ready to debate that point.

Transferring conventional weapons to Ukraine is a qualitatively different kind of action than the direct engagement of NATO member state personnel against Russian armed forces and shouldn’t be compared if you’re honestly assessing this.

The concern over cluster munitions is about UKRAINIAN civilian casualties and UKRAINIAN ability to clean up after— making decisions for Ukrainians— and not about a Russian red line for their security. 

[bolverk 29360]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 Being watched and having personal space violated and entered is entry-level shenanigans that all manner of enemies and frenemies will allow themselves to do. 
 

The Russians operate on a different level of hostility and psychological games, including things like killed pets and fun pranks like posing as emergency services and telling people that children and spouses have been killed or maimed in traffic accidents. 
 

The world has awoken somewhat to what the Russian state is. But I cannot stress enough the utter lack of humanity on a personal level the security apparatus is capable of. 

 

Understood. She was low level though since it was her first assignment. She had just been a simple librarian but had been recently divorced with no kids, applied to the State, was accepted, did an intense language program, came back to DC for training, and then WALLA! found herself in Moscow. 

But, to be honest, she'd probably been told to expect it and didn't seem overly traumatized but was a little weirded out by it.

[bolverk 29360]

13 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Pics not showing up. 

That's her on the right.

[HOOKEM4 5012]

...

Edited July 7, 2023 by HOOKEM4

[pops 6972]

3 hours ago, bolverk said:

More from Zelensky. I'm seriously considering attending an Austin ISD board meeting and insist they find a school to rename after him.

 

 

 

Erin Burnett would have been able to drown a baby between her legs right then. 

[bolverk 29360]

Checked the Ukrainian subreddits but couldn't find this incredible clip.

 

[SydneyCarton 47809]

7 hours ago, The Dog said:

"Hidden mobilization" in Moscow:

going to be hard to deliver on those contracts if the workers are dying in Ukraine...

Look at russias military. When has delivering on a contract ever been a prerequisite for oligarchs getting paid? 

[atomheartbevo 89362]

4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This debate is a great reminder that we (the collective West) cannot remember or comprehend being in a war that we can’t afford to lose.  The cost of cleanup (for Ukraine) has no meaning if they lose this war. And for us, it only has meaning if they win. Because we aren’t going to help Russia clear mines in their new colony. 

And it's also why Russia is doing everything possible to use their state TV/media to sell this as an existential crisis to Russia, because Putin seems willing to completely destroy their economy and their future demographics in this Quixotic quest of his, and the only way you can sell that is if you convince the Russian people that it's life or death.

2 hours ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Nah, we don’t want them to be able to kill/destroy the soldiers/munitions being used to kill them. Might upset Putin.

With more and more NATO countries saying "yeah, we support Ukraine joining" and with things like Germany hopping on board the "let's supply the fuck out of Ukraine" train, it's uncanny how the West has turned from "let's do the minimum" to "okay, how much can we do and still have Putin not angry" to "Oh, Putin is telling his people that Ukraine will join NATO if Russia doesn't conquer them, well fuck it, Ukraine needs to go ahead and join, because if that's what Putin is selling to his people, we should help him out.!"

I'd be that it's lost on Putin that the West has collectively determined that he's a hollow threat at this point - all of his talking heads promising nuclear fire on European and American capitols, etc., kind of just became the Boy who Cried Wolf.

[atomheartbevo 89362]

47 minutes ago, pops said:

Erin Burnett would have been able to drown a baby between her legs right then. 

He's out there showing European leaders that he doesn't skip arm day.

[MillerEP 30339]

 

[Sawbonz 27375]

9 hours ago, HOOKEM4 said:

I can't get over how badass Zelenskyy is. It is really interesting to see how a true leader is born under the most insane situation I have ever witnessed. There aren't a whole lot of people that would be able to handle this situation the way he has.

If you must have your president be a tv performer, pick one who can play the piano w his dick over someone who gives douchebags fake job tasks so he can say “you’re fired “ over and over

[The Dog 43771]

 

[Dahobbs 17420]

3 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

That conclusion doesn't seem to follow. It could also be to replace destroyed systems. I don't think we can no one way or another. 

[elfenix 34168]

Erin Burnett would have been able to drown a baby between her legs right then. 

I'd happily volunteer to take that baby's place

[MissingInAction 24765]

7 hours ago, Orange&White said:

Russia has been using cluster munitions since this thing started.

Along with Willy Pete.

[atomheartbevo 89362]

1 hour ago, Dahobbs said:

That conclusion doesn't seem to follow. It could also be to replace destroyed systems. I don't think we can no one way or another. 

I don't think they've destroyed three dozen Paladins - they'd be showing a lot of videos off.  Plus, the Russians are on the defensive and not capturing enough ground to get close to any they hit/disable, which means that all Paladins that were hit/damaged would have been recovered and repaired (or parted out).

[atomheartbevo 89362]

1 hour ago, Sawbonz said:

If you must have your president be a tv performer, pick one who can play the piano w his dick over someone who gives douchebags fake job tasks so he can say “you’re fired “ over and over

I've shown a few people the video of Zelenskyy "playing" the piano with his dick and the reaction was just about what you would expect.

 

[Dahobbs 17420]

2 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I don't think they've destroyed three dozen Paladins - they'd be showing a lot of videos off.  Plus, the Russians are on the defensive and not capturing enough ground to get close to any they hit/disable, which means that all Paladins that were hit/damaged would have been recovered and repaired (or parted out).

3 dozen paladins, probably not. 3 dozen self propelled or towed artillery in total seems pretty possible. I'm just saying I doubt we can really know from the simple data point of the US sending more Paladins. 

[MillerEP 30339]

[956 Worldwide 34314]

Zelenskyy visits Snake Island. I’m sure Putin is carefully watching from his dacha bunker.