Русский корабль - иди нахуй

[Viper 12108]

20 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

So if they sink NATO flagged ships in NATO waters is that Article 5? 

How could it not be? 

[Rimbo 25916]

2 minutes ago, Viper said:

How could it not be? 

If NATO can find a reason to not get their citizens killed or escalate to nuclear war, they will.

Not saying that I agree with this point of view.

Personally, I've been ready to make Moscow glow in the dark for a while.

[BehoId, The Underminer! 11669]

4 minutes ago, Viper said:

How could it not be? 

whether this is true or not:

 

Article 6

“For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:

• on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;

• on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.”

[atomheartbevo 89642]

21 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Well, add that to the list of war crimes, then.

What teeth do the Geneva Conventions even have? Who's going to stop the Russians from violating them?

The Geneva stuff is after-the-fact if you put people on trial - it's something (charges) that can be added.

[atomheartbevo 89642]

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by atomheartbevo

[Ted Lange 16084]

 

 

[bolverk 29659]

I'd be awful nervous if I were that cameraman. But, then again, if that Russian soldier shoots as poorly as a Storm Trooper, maybe not.

[AUS-97HORN 11757]

36 minutes ago, blacklab said:

No idea. There's one guy here that flew them, he should know.

not sure I can trust a guy who goes by leroy jenkins.....

[atomheartbevo 89642]

If you need a wallpaper to make people go "what the fuck" here you go

[atomheartbevo 89642]

1 minute ago, AUS-97HORN said:

not sure I can trust a guy who goes by leroy jenkins.....

So @Leeroy Jenkins flew P-8's? 

[InkaUtexas 25881]

16 minutes ago, Viper said:

How could it not be? 

That is what I remembered from a Military Law seminar. Did not talk much about Navy, was more about NATO's responsibilities in Peacekeeping Roles for Bosnia Operations. 

[NorthLoop 14188]

18 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I'd be awful nervous if I were that cameraman. But, then again, if that Russian soldier shoots as poorly as a Storm Trooper, maybe not.

Dude probably doesn't have any bullets. 

[Schulz2.0 28951]

 

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

20 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

So @Leeroy Jenkins flew P-8's? 

I think he flew P-3s. P-8 is a pretty new platform. 

[Schulz2.0 28951]

2 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

I think he flew P-3s. P-8 is a pretty new platform. 

I was going to make a joke about Leeroy being old until I realized the P-8 came into service shortly after I got out of the Navy. Oops.

[Braff Zacklin 13556]

13 minutes ago, NorthLoop said:

Dude probably doesn't have any bullets. 

Or maybe just one.

[TexasEd 8066]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

I think @blacklab knows more, but the P8’s carry torpedoes and Harpoon anti-ship missiles.  If they are being escorted by American P8’s, that’s interesting.

 

1 hour ago, blacklab said:

No idea. There's one guy here that flew them, he should know.

The P8's primary mission is Anti-Submarine Warfare and to that end they have a lot of sonar and anti sub gear.  They can also carry anti-ship weapons like Harpoons.

[ryskey 447]

Unless I'm mistaken, the Danube is considered international waters and countries do not need to give permission to transit through if the ship isn't docking at a port in that country.  So legally, this isn't a problem.  A ship can move between Romania and Croatia without involving Serbia.  

Practically, that part of Croatia is sparsely populated with little industry, and I don't think there are any sizable ports on the Danube.  The Sava is a tributary that meets up in Belgrade and upriver forms the southern border of Croatia with Bosnia (the confluence of the Sava and the Danube has bars on barges everywhere and is one of the best party scenes in Europe), and in theory that could be used to get further into Croatia, but I don't think it's wide or deep enough to handle big grain ships.  About the same size as Lady Bird Lake.

Croatia idea sounds cool but probably not likely to have an impact.

[MillerEP 30451]

https://twitter.com/parrot_soldier/status/1686084325597396992?s=20

^Like one of the comments says, it looks like Verdun

[Dnaguy 11931]

3 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Interesting. Russia would never touch an Israeli ship. Seems like there is a work around. USN providing oversight recon support. 

 

[Schulz2.0 28951]

 

 

[The Dog 44020]

what kerch bridge doing?

[Bevo 13575]

20 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

I was going to make a joke about Leeroy being old until I realized the P-8 came into service shortly after I got out of the Navy. Oops.

So, is he old?

[Schulz2.0 28951]

9 minutes ago, Bevo said:

So, is he old?

Well apparently I am.

[TexasEd 8066]

I've flown on a P3 before so I guess I'm old.  Worked on the transition to the P8 and MQ-4C.  Also been on 4 Aircraft Carriers that have been retired. lol

Edited July 31, 2023 by TexasEd

[NeverMarryAStripper 21880]

The P-8A was upgraded a couple of years ago to carry the AGM-84 Harpoon.

[atomheartbevo 89642]

7 minutes ago, TexasEd said:

I've flown on a P3 before so I guess I'm old.  Worked on the transition to the P8 and MQ-4C.  Also been on 4 Aircraft Carriers that have been retired. lol

Holy shit, so you killed off the P3 and 4 aircraft carriers?

But seriously, those P8s are pretty capable if they are hauling Harpoons, right?  Russian fighters probably don't have the range/loitering capabilities that far from home, and they know they'd be seen in enough time for NATO fighters to show up.

[Armybrat 40828]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

So @Leeroy Jenkins flew P-8's? 

He also drove the Sam Bass Fire Department truck carrying Santa Claus through our neighborhood several years ago.

 

[Brisketexan 105092]

49 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

I think he flew P-3s. P-8 is a pretty new platform. 

P-3, P-8, whatever it takes...

[TexasEd 8066]

21 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Holy shit, so you killed off the P3 and 4 aircraft carriers?

But seriously, those P8s are pretty capable if they are hauling Harpoons, right?  Russian fighters probably don't have the range/loitering capabilities that far from home, and they know they'd be seen in enough time for NATO fighters to show up.

Ehhh, I was a contractor supplying gear and training on those platforms.  We moved the stuff we were doing onto the new platforms.  

Yes, P8s are capable.  I think they are in theatre because the Drones we were using were harassed by the Russians notably crashing one of them.  The stakes are raised with a manned aircraft.  But remember that China bumped one of our P3s which led to the crew doing an emergency landing in China. That was a huge break in protocol.

Edited July 31, 2023 by TexasEd

[Judge Roybeanbag 11819]

1 hour ago, AUS-97HORN said:

not sure I can trust a guy who goes by leroy jenkins.....

Pretty sure Leeroy flew P-3s although he might have had some experience with P-8s.

[Steel Shank 9422]

49 minutes ago, Armybrat said:

He also drove the Sam Bass Fire Department truck carrying Santa Claus through our neighborhood several years ago.

 

6CEB3285-EDB2-41E9-BFAE-0066E6FD5025.MOV

Well, I'll be.

[InkaUtexas 25881]

Guess we still make good equipment. 

 

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Holy shit, so you killed off the P3 and 4 aircraft carriers?

But seriously, those P8s are pretty capable if they are hauling Harpoons, right?  Russian fighters probably don't have the range/loitering capabilities that far from home, and they know they'd be seen in enough time for NATO fighters to show up.

What are the chances that P-8 already had a couple invisible shadows? 

[Dahobbs 17529]

20 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Guess we still make good equipment. 

 

I'd be interested in an explanation of what additional value ATACMS provides at this point. It has less less range than Storm Shadow (although perhaps the modifications to get it to fire from their aircraft change that). I guess they'd have more platforms to launch ATACMS from, and supply of Storm Shadow may be extremely limited. It is also possible ATACMS would be more difficult for Russia to intercept, but I'm not sure that's clear given the very different launch profiles.  

[Bevo 13575]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

I'd be interested in an explanation of what additional value ATACMS provides at this point. It has less less range than Storm Shadow (although perhaps the modifications to get it to fire from their aircraft change that). I guess they'd have more platforms to launch ATACMS from, and supply of Storm Shadow may be extremely limited. It is also possible ATACMS would be more difficult for Russia to intercept, but I'm not sure that's clear given the very different launch profiles.  

If HIMARS have value ATACMS have value.

[Dahobbs 17529]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

Holy shit, so you killed off the P3 and 4 aircraft carriers?

But seriously, those P8s are pretty capable if they are hauling Harpoons, right?  Russian fighters probably don't have the range/loitering capabilities that far from home, and they know they'd be seen in enough time for NATO fighters to show up.

Are Harpoons much of a threat to modern defenses on big ships? Low, slow flying, 1970s era missile seems like it would be a pretty easy target absent some aggressive missile spam. 

[kevwun 15772]

The biggest value ATACMS has is it can't be shot down like Storm Shadows can.  That's very significant for heavily defended targets like the Kerch Bridge.

Edited July 31, 2023 by kevwun

[InkaUtexas 25881]

4 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I'd be interested in an explanation of what additional value ATACMS provides at this point. It has less less range than Storm Shadow (although perhaps the modifications to get it to fire from their aircraft change that). I guess they'd have more platforms to launch ATACMS from, and supply of Storm Shadow may be extremely limited. It is also possible ATACMS would be more difficult for Russia to intercept, but I'm not sure that's clear given the very different launch profiles.  

One thing, we probably have more to give than the UK. They have the launchers are trained on them, so why not? Fuck Russia. 

[Dahobbs 17529]

1 minute ago, Bevo said:

If HIMARS have value ATACMS have value.

ATACMS cost a hell of a lot more than GMLRs. You really wouldn't want to use the former on a target that could be serviced by the later.  ATACMS and Storm Shadow would seem to overlap on intended targets. While I have no doubt that ATACMS could be used, I'm just not sure I understand why it is a need if the same targets (and further away targets) can be serviced with Storm Shadow. 

[kevwun 15772]

Storm Shadows are subsonic and fly low to the ground.  ATACMS is over mach 3 and comes down at the target from above.  That makes a huge difference when it comes to shooting them down.

[Dahobbs 17529]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

One thing, we probably have more to give than the UK. They have the launchers are trained on them, so why not? Fuck Russia. 

That makes the most sense to me. Storm Shadow has pretty limited production numbers so I'd definitely understand that if we could provide a lot of ATACMS Ukraine wouldn't have to be as selective in its target selection. I definitely agree with providing it. I just find it interesting that is often described as a need when on paper it seems like it doesn't really provides additional capability. 

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

They had to jury rig the Mig 29 to launch Storm Shadows, so I bet they can only launch from a few at a time. I bet they have way more HIMARS launchers than they have planes capable of launching Storm Shadows. 

[Bevo 13575]

https://www.eurasiantimes.com/atacms-the-weapon-ukraine-needs-to-stun-russia-but/

 

ATACMS will take a year to get to Ukraine because they come direct from the manufacturer and they are out of production so a new production cycle needs to be started.

[MillerEP 30451]

 

[Leeroy Jenkins 2402]

3 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

So @Leeroy Jenkins flew P-8's? 

Those fancy things were not around back then.  I flew P-3's.  

 

(not sure what I missed I haven't been in this thread lately)

[Pescado_Rojo 19416]

2 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Those fancy things were not around back then.  I flew P-3's.  

 

(not sure what I missed I haven't been in this thread lately)

Surly has decided to crowdsource a P-3 instead of a sniper rifle, and we volunteered you to fly it over the Black Sea hunting Russians. 

[Brisketexan 105092]

1 minute ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

Surly has decided to crowdsource a P-3 instead of a sniper rifle, and we volunteered you to fly it over the Black Sea hunting Russians. 

This is a P-3, right?

[MillerEP 30451]

 

[atomheartbevo 89642]

31 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Those fancy things were not around back then.  I flew P-3's.  

(not sure what I missed I haven't been in this thread lately)

This report: “Militarnyi reports that yesterday, three civilian ships (Israeli, Greek and Turkish/Georgian origin) were able to bypass the Russian blockade of the Black Sea and headed for Ukraine. It is reported that the passage was secured by a US P8 anti-ship aircraft.”

Was just curious how formidable one of those P8’s were, and it’s not clear whether it was simple the US Navy saying “hey we are in the area” or “ hey we are tracking these civilian ships, hopefully nothing happens to them.”

Of course, Russia attacking any non-Ukrainian ships would be a huge shitstorm and I think even they know it.  That’s the kind of stuff that invites armed escorts. Plus Turkey would probably completely close the Straits off to Russian shipping, and not just Russian military vessels.