Русский корабль - иди нахуй

[B00M 6749]

4 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

One of those videos showed a drone dropping smoke grenades - I saw this mentioned in a FB discussion I'm in about artillery, and they said the Ukrainians have got drone operators moving with the mechanized units, and they are using them to drop smoke grenades on the Russian positions for Ukrainian tanks and mechanized infantry to target.  It's simple but stunningly effective for a fellow soldier to be marking enemy positions a mile or two away from you with smoke grenades. Increases the survivability of the armored units, while increasing the amount of death/destruction visited upon the enemy.

Yeah, we are seeing all kinds of advancements in warfare, but the drone stuff is still wild - as has been mentioned many times, we're going to have to do the same in the US. 

Probably need a few new MOSes - the US Army has a 15W - Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) Operator, and I suppose it could fall under that, but I can think of quite a few variations on this that would require a lot of specialized training beyond simply piloting a UAV.

Yeah, DJI’s dominance of the cheap/effective drone market is a big problem.

[Bevo 13960]

18 minutes ago, B00M said:

Yeah, DJI’s dominance of the cheap/effective drone market is a big problem.

 

Has the US military ever gone for the cheap and somewhat effective option? It seems like our focus is on the expensive, high tech (extremely effective) option.

[Schulz2.0 29318]

58 minutes ago, B00M said:

Yeah, DJI’s dominance of the cheap/effective drone market is a big problem.

The latest chatter from the front lines is that the advantage the Ukrainians had in drones is now being surpassed by the Russians.  The Russians are mass manufacturing Lancets and Shaheds while the Ukrainians are crowdfunding DJIs.

[cactusflinthead 27631]

40 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

Has the US military ever gone for the cheap and somewhat effective option? It seems like our focus is on the expensive, high tech (extremely effective) option.

May I present to you the grease gun over the Thompson?

Granted, that's a little bit of the past, but it does happen.

[BamaATL 16593]

23 minutes ago, Bevo said:

 

Has the US military ever gone for the cheap and somewhat effective option? It seems like our focus is on the expensive, high tech (extremely effective) option.

Its a great question, one off the top of my head I don't have a single item to focus on.  However, something to consider in pondering this is that pretty much everything we do involves scale that no one else really does, along with budget projections that no one else real deals with.  So part of the reason we don't do things this way is that we don't have to (quite the luxury), and second lets say we are going to build a plane (widget), we look at it financially different.  We are going to budget to build 1000 multipurpose fighters at a total cost of $100 billion, which is budgeted over a 20 year period.  So the program starts with these sorts of numbers, but in reality everyone knows cuts to the total numbers of the plane will happen.  So instead of getting 1000 planes, we wind up with 300 and parts for maintenance for the same $100 billion over 20 years.  Invariably, this looks like your $100 million dollar plane costs $300 million per plane (my math isn't perfect on this but just ballpark).  However, that also includes upgrades and design changes during the manufacturing costs.  Of course financial hawks jump on this sort of thing as prime example of waste spending (not discounting part of this because there are valid points in this argument), but they often omit they latter part about upgrades and design spec changes to their argument.

I suppose the bottom line is that we simply don't build on the cheap because we don't have to.  As a result, when we do build, we do so at scale (like Ukraine might be able squeeze out 100 widgets on their budget at X cost, we don't have those constraints so we build 10,000 at Y cost).  Ukraine is in a the unenviable but unique situation in which winning is existential, which certainly changes how you do things.  For them, it's a use whatever you can approach, which has its own advantages when it comes down to ingenuity.  You know, necessity being the mother of invention sort of thing.     

 

[Parliament 14647]

Also because we can just print the US Dollars we need for all those kickass Javelins, F35's and HIMARS's.

[Schulz2.0 29318]

 

[BamaATL 16593]

9 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Also because we can just print the US Dollars we need for all those kickass Javelins, F35's and HIMARS's.

I know your are saying that in jest but fundamentally that is true, and has in fact happened in our past when we felt existentially threatened.  During WW2, we actually spent 40% of GDP on the war effort, even once it was clear that we were going to win.  (As to the amount we've given to Ukraine thus far, it represents .002 of our annual GDP).

I remember reading a book on Peloponnesian War many years ago, and if memory serves, it was written by a history professor at the University of Texas.  This isn't a direct quote because I am doing this from memory, but it went something along the lines of, "the organizing principal of all governments is make war, be it defensive or otherwise."  Basically that everything else is butter on top, i.e. social programs, schools, etc.  Anyway, that has always stuck with me (well that and the part where Themistocles tricked people into financing the Navy, which turned out to be huge).   

As it applies to this situation, for the Ukrainians, they should spend everything they can, anything that anyone will give them, innovate in any way possible, because if they do not, they may well not exist as a country.  Choosing not to would sort of like needing life saving surgery but opting not to do it because you think you can't financially afford it.  

[Dahobbs 18478]

1 hour ago, Bevo said:

 

Has the US military ever gone for the cheap and somewhat effective option? It seems like our focus is on the expensive, high tech (extremely effective) option.

Yes, see f-16. Also see the air force's current plan for attributable drones to accompany our 6th generation fighter. But cheap is relative. 

[Parliament 14647]

Only partially in jest.  The USD is the defacto Gold Standard of our time.  Everyone will take it.  The Spaniards mined gold.  The Americans print money.

[atomheartbevo 90787]

2 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Yes, see f-16. Also see the air force's current plan for attributable drones to accompany our 6th generation fighter. But cheap is relative. 

I was talking to a friend who had retired from the Air Force, and works as a contractor doing avionics programming, and I mentioned the F-15EX is starting to show up in the AF, and that it was the Strike Eagle on acid, still with the back-seater and he said "you know, the back seater is going to eventually be another pilot who is running UAVs that do the actual strike missions while the F-15s are out of reach of the enemy, right?"

Looked it up, and he's right. They are planning that.

[Schulz2.0 29318]

Netherlands will train Ukrainians on the F-16 in Romania.

 

[Bevo 13960]

5 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I was talking to a friend who had retired from the Air Force, and works as a contractor doing avionics programming, and I mentioned the F-15EX is starting to show up in the AF, and that it was the Strike Eagle on acid, still with the back-seater and he said "you know, the back seater is going to eventually be another pilot who is running UAVs that do the actual strike missions while the F-15s are out of reach of the enemy, right?"

Looked it up, and he's right. They are planning that.

 

Every few weeks or so I'll see an officer in Futures Command. Any one of those guys could keep this board entertained for weeks. Unfortunately, I don't know what is secret vs. common knowledge so I keep it to myself. Plus, I don't ever get into specifics but keep it topical such as the future of tanks in modern warfare.

I should ask about cheap, mass produced drones. Because it does seem like that is something we are going to need to do or at least something we need to combat. And it does seem somewhat curious to me that drones could accompany stealth fighters and stealth helicopters. It seems to somewhat defeat the purpose of stealth if you increase the footprint or create multiple footprints in the sky. I imagine though that the drones would be somewhat distant from the plane so while there would be lots of things in the sky, it would be hard to get a radar lock to hit any individual drone.

And I imagine the Navy is going to have to totally re-imagine things. They are going to have to stay far away from shore. And carriers might be better off carrying a large number of smaller drones with smart bombs, missiles, and torpedoes rather than large planes with fighter pilots. Using planes as hubs and drones as the combatants is an interesting twist. It would totally change the type of planes and drones needed.

[Schulz2.0 29318]

 

 

 

[Schulz2.0 29318]

 

 

[Schulz2.0 29318]

Russia convicting about 100 soldiers a month for refusing to go to Ukraine.

 

[Bateshorn 9993]

6 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

I was talking to a friend who had retired from the Air Force, and works as a contractor doing avionics programming, and I mentioned the F-15EX is starting to show up in the AF, and that it was the Strike Eagle on acid, still with the back-seater and he said "you know, the back seater is going to eventually be another pilot who is running UAVs that do the actual strike missions while the F-15s are out of reach of the enemy, right?"

Looked it up, and he's right. They are planning that.

 

8 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Yes, see f-16. Also see the air force's current plan for attributable drones to accompany our 6th generation fighter. But cheap is relative. 

Yeah, the F15X is necessary as both a replacement bomb truck (the current Strike Eagles are worn out from the war on terror) and as a stand off ordnance carrier in coordination with the F35 in modern (read vs the Chinese) warfare. 
 

I feel like the Marines rolled upgraded Cobras after the introduction of the Apache’s because they were cheap, effective, and commanders weren’t afraid to potentially lose them due to cost (which is still a problem with the Apache).  
 

The MH6 has also provided decades of cheap, effective service. 

[Schulz2.0 29318]

 

[Schulz2.0 29318]

Little fat guy won't do shit.

 

[SquishMitten 10499]

I'm dumb

Edited August 30, 2023 by SquishMitten

[Trey3216 15458]

16 hours ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

 

He should have listened to his shirt.  

[Trey3216 15458]

16 hours ago, Rimbo said:

You know that if we don't, China will. And likely already have.

 

Lol at folks honestly thinking we "don't know/understand" the importance of modern drone warfare...

[Trey3216 15458]

12 hours ago, Schulz2.0 said:

Hahaha

 

 

[RockyMountainHighHorn 929]

8 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

Lol at folks honestly thinking we "don't know/understand" the importance of modern drone warfare...

I’m just waiting for someone to actually show how a swarm could be. I’m talking hundreds of drones at one time. We see them doing light shows and making shapes. We should be able to create massive havoc with a true “swarm”. I know it’s the semi early days of the tech in military usage but soon we should see some pretty crazy formations…or should. I’m about to switch careers to a drone operator…

[The Dog 44946]

[HOOKEM4 5203]

31 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

Wordle 802 4/6*

⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜
⬜🟨⬜⬜⬜
🟨🟨⬜⬜🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
 

Daily Quordle 583
7️⃣6️⃣
5️⃣8️⃣
m-w.com/games/quordle/
⬜🟨⬜⬜⬜ 🟩🟨⬜⬜🟨
⬜⬜⬜🟩⬜ 🟩🟩⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜🟩 🟩🟩🟩⬜🟩
⬜⬜⬜🟨⬜ 🟩⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜🟨⬜ 🟩⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜🟩 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 ⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛

🟩⬜🟩⬜⬜ 🟩⬜🟨⬜⬜
🟩⬜🟩⬜⬜ 🟩⬜🟨⬜⬜
🟩⬜⬜🟨⬜ 🟩⬜⬜⬜⬜
🟩⬜🟩🟩🟩 🟩⬜🟨⬜⬜
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 🟩⬜🟨⬜⬜
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛ 🟩⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛ ⬜🟨⬜⬜⬜
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛ 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
 

Think this is the closest I ever came to using the entire alphabet. 21 letters just to get the first word

Daily Sequence Quordle 583
6️⃣7️⃣
8️⃣9️⃣
m-w.com/games/quordle/
⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜ ⬜⬜⬜⬜🟨
⬜🟩⬜⬜⬜ ⬜⬜🟨🟩⬜
⬜🟩⬜⬜🟩 ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜🟩⬜⬜🟩 ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜🟩⬜⬜🟩 🟩⬜⬜⬜⬜
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛ 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩

⬜⬜⬜⬜🟨 ⬜🟨⬜🟨🟨
⬜⬜🟨⬜🟨 ⬜⬜🟨⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
🟨⬜⬜⬜⬜ ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜ ⬜⬜⬜⬜⬜
🟨🟨⬜⬜🟨 ⬜🟨⬜⬜🟨
🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩 🟩🟩⬜⬜⬜
⬛⬛⬛⬛⬛ 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
 

Wow, cant believe this! What a breakthrough! It is turning boys.

[Parliament 14647]

9 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

[Doc Sam Beckett 5912]

20 minutes ago, The Dog said:

 

Call up Field Marshall Alfred von Schlieffen, he's tan, rested, and ready. And he was built for this

 

[Parliament 14647]

George S. Patton you mean.

[Schulz2.0 29318]

 

 

 

[Gatorubet 30873]

17 hours ago, BamaATL said:

I suppose they can use ground shipping for cargo 200's, maybe some of those scooby vans.  Pskov was quite a way from the front.  

Fixed tense. 

[SquishMitten 10499]

2 hours ago, Schulz2.0 said:

Russia convicting about 100 soldiers a month for refusing to go to Ukraine.

Two years in a penal colony vs. almost certain death in a war that your leadership doesn't give a fuck what happens to you. Hmmmm.  Tough decision!

[Chopper 17490]

SIAP 4 destroyed plus others damaged

deemed a credible source by r/ukraine

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3754871-four-il76-airlifters-confirmed-as-destroyed-in-russias-pskov-ukrainian-intel.html

 

[Bevo 13960]

8 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

Two years in a penal colony vs. almost certain death in a war that your leadership doesn't give a fuck what happens to you. Hmmmm.  Tough decision!

Russian penal colony. Tough decision.

[AUS-97HORN 12088]

i love how no one mentions, notices, or brings up the fact that Pskov is only 20 MILES from Estonia's border.

 

pretty damn sure a Ukr team could  take a couple of lorries, take a little roundabout drive through Poland, Lithuania and Latvia, winking at the border guards as they go, and find a quiet spot 3-5 miles from the Russian border, set up a take off point for 50 drones at night where they all fly less than 100 feet over the border, go the 20 miles and Leroy Jenkins the fuck out of the airbase. 

Because at this point its brutally obvious that What Air Defense Doing is a real problem.

that whole process could be re-conned by a couple of guys beforehand, then 10 days or so for all the trucks to make their way at various times to the meeting spot, hide until night, and then get to the takeoff spot, fly the drones for what, 60 mins, or less, things go boom and everyone scatters.   And Russia is so clueless they think the damn things either came from inside Russia or flew 500 miles from Ukr.

[Sawbonz 28272]

16 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

pretty damn sure a Ukr team could  take a couple of lorries, take a little roundabout drive through Poland, Lithuania and Latvia, winking at the border guards as they go

[BamaATL 16593]

2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Such a truck would be good for picking up girls in Minsk

[Pato del Muerto 53674]

1 hour ago, RockyMountainHighHorn said:

I’m just waiting for someone to actually show how a swarm could be. I’m talking hundreds of drones at one time. We see them doing light shows and making shapes. We should be able to create massive havoc with a true “swarm”. I know it’s the semi early days of the tech in military usage but soon we should see some pretty crazy formations…or should. I’m about to switch careers to a drone operator…

They’d need to be pretty autonomous to swarm like those light shows, unless it was militarily relevant to be able to program each one to be at specific places at specific times. Don’t think having them each flown by a person would work. Maybe if each flown one had some slave drones that mimicked movement and maintained a small distance, with a cascading order of the master drone if the master gets taken out? And a few clusters of those- so 5 swarms of 10 that might operate like a fighter group?

[Schulz2.0 29318]

 

 

[Parliament 14647]

That's a long way for those SF guys to drag their giant balls.

[Chad Fuck 18180]

13 hours ago, Bevo said:

 

Has the US military ever gone for the cheap and somewhat effective option? It seems like our focus is on the expensive, high tech (extremely effective) option.

One may argue the Sherman tank fits here.  Or the M1 Garand.  Or the M1 Carbine.

Gotta say though, the post WWII examples are somewhat limited.  

[InkaUtexas 27093]

4 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

One may argue the Sherman tank fits here.  Or the M1 Garand.  Or the M1 Carbine.

Gotta say though, the post WWII examples are somewhat limited.  

If we are talking about Grunt equipment the M-79 and pre-cool dude M-4 systems say Holla. 

 

[Brisketexan 107119]

8 minutes ago, Parliament said:

That's a long way for those SF guys to drag their giant balls.

Well, it says they crawled the whole way on their stomachs.  So, I assume the field looked like this after they passed over it with their giant ball plows:

 

[Chad Fuck 18180]

2 hours ago, Schulz2.0 said:

Little fat guy won't do shit.

 

Both those guys can EABOD and DIAF to quote an old shaggy-ism.

[Chad Fuck 18180]

24 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

 

Those barges are gonna be cute when the HIMARS come into range.

[KYHorn 17699]

25 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

 

The whole story is worth a read:

Minister @DmytroKuleba  described how a group of 31 fighters made the liberation of Robotyne possible. The Foreign Minister told diplomats in France that for several months a Ukrainian unit continuously stormed this front section. Due to exhaustion and losses, at one point, it lost the ability to continue the offensive – and then "radical decisions" were made: the unit's leadership was changed.

The Minister explained that the new commander requested the assembly of motivated fighters ready for combat missions. A combined group of 31 fighters was formed, a third of whom had no combat experience, but all of them had the will to win.

"In 18 hours, they crawled literally on their stomachs for kilometers through minefields, where the russians placed six mines per square meter. Finally, the unit reached the landing zone and ousted the russians from there, holding this position for two days until reinforcements arrived.

A group of 31 individuals did the work of an entire battalion, which would typically consist of around 400 people. The losses amounted to 7 wounded, of which only one was seriously injured from stepping on a mine. Essentially, the efforts of this group enabled an entire brigade's advance on Robotyne and its liberation after weeks of sieges," the minister said.

Edited August 30, 2023 by KYHorn

[Rimbo 27282]

2 hours ago, Trey3216 said:

Lol at folks honestly thinking we "don't know/understand" the importance of modern drone warfare...

 

Are you asking me to assume competence from the US military?

I grew up during the 1970s. Stripes was more or less a documentary.

 

2 hours ago, RockyMountainHighHorn said:

I’m just waiting for someone to actually show how a swarm could be. I’m talking hundreds of drones at one time. We see them doing light shows and making shapes. We should be able to create massive havoc with a true “swarm”. I know it’s the semi early days of the tech in military usage but soon we should see some pretty crazy formations…or should. I’m about to switch careers to a drone operator…

 

And these shows you see are happening in China, with Chinese-made drones.

We're way, way behind on this.

Short-term profits have led to us outsourcing our tech advantage.

 

1 hour ago, The Dog said:

 

[KYHorn 17699]

 

 https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1696791286433427934?s=20  

 

 An amazing video by the 3rd assault brigade of the Ukrainian armed forces. This perfectly illustrates why @LibertyUkraineF

is focused on drones. You can see the drones providing situational awareness to the Ukrainian troops to save their lives when we are outnumbered and outgunned.

Edited August 30, 2023 by KYHorn

[Bevo 13960]

12 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

 

Are you asking me to assume competence from the US military?

I grew up during the 1970s. Stripes was more or less a documentary.

 

 

[JesusSweatDuck 18315]

43 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

They’d need to be pretty autonomous to swarm like those light shows, unless it was militarily relevant to be able to program each one to be at specific places at specific times. Don’t think having them each flown by a person would work. Maybe if each flown one had some slave drones that mimicked movement and maintained a small distance, with a cascading order of the master drone if the master gets taken out? And a few clusters of those- so 5 swarms of 10 that might operate like a fighter group?

Yeah, but imagine drones that could work in concert to lock onto individual targets and swarm an area with targeted attacks.  The drones would need some smarts and the ability to communicate amongst themselves, but this is how we end up in a Terminator movie.