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[956 Worldwide 34704]

10 hours ago, Bevo said:

This isn't true. They have a lack of manpower as well and have not been able to institute a draft and rotate personnel off the front line. And we all know why the supplies from the US have stopped. And we know why certain supplies from the US were never supplied. But, we don't have a clear idea of what is going on in Europe regarding supply. Turkey could send a shitload of supplies. Germany could do the same. What's going on there and in places such as Austria, Poland, and the Czech Republic? Those posts are interesting.

We have literally a full accounting of what is going on in Europe regarding supply via the contact group that meets in Rammstein. Anyway to answer your question:

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/03/20/czech-led-bulk-ammunition-buy-for-ukraine-picks-up-steam/

Quote

MILAN – A proposed Czech-led bulk artillery ammunition purchase for Ukraine is picking up steam, as countries commit to bank-rolling the effort while sourcing shells from non-European vendors.

Czech President Petr Pavel said in February that Prague had identified 500,000 155mm artillery shells and 300,000 122mm rounds outside the European Union that could be sent to Ukraine if necessary funds were secured.

Shortly after this announcement, over a dozen countries joined the mission, contributing millions of dollars. So far, Pavel’s government has succeeded at gathering the support of almost 20 other allies, Canada, Germany, France, Norway, the Netherlands and Belgium.

Speaking at a March 19 meeting of the Ukraine Defense Contact Group in Ramstein, Germany, German Defense Minister Borius Pistorius said Berlin would pay for 180,000 rounds. Defense officials in Berlin declined to put a price tag on the commitment.

Russia's advantage in artillery ammunitions is unlikely to spur more frontline gains, but it will give Moscow some breathing space, one analyst said.

 

Some of the most recent members to join are Sweden and Portugal, which said on March 14, that they contributed $32,6 million and $108,6 million to the efforts, respectively.

According to a recent Wall Street Journal report, the Czechs have marked an additional 700,000 shells that could possibly be bought for Ukrainian troops. This would bring the total purchase to 1.5 million rounds, at a cost of $3.3 billion, the newspaper reported.

Experts have pegged Russia’s firepower advantage at 5:1 for over Ukraine, with Russian forces firing as many as 10,000 shells per day, compared to 2,000 by Ukraine.

Questions still remain about how quickly the Czech-led initiative could bring fresh ammunition to frontline troops in Ukraine. Czech national security advisor Tomas Pojar has said that the first rounds could be shipped by June.

Officials in Prague have made it clear that they are ready to negotiate with almost any third-country vendor that could commit to making a contribution to the bulk purchase, with a few exceptions, including North Korea.

The United States is the NATO Ally that has the defense base to supply most of the more pressing needs like high-end air defense and long-range fires. We are the supplier of choice to NATO Allies for this and we in fact have pressed to ensure we maintained some of these key capabilities as part of our defense industrial base. And now we are sitting on it. 
 

Europe is contributing more per capita and in absolute terms but we are the nation that has surplus of extremely key hardware. It’s us or it doesn’t go. 

[Bevo 13569]

10 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

All the “questions” you just asked about what European countries are doing have been answered. Collectively, they have a lower GDP than the US…and have contributed MORE in value than the US has.
You don’t actually have questions. You just keep repeating them because you don’t like the answer.

In your rush to attack, I asked the question because it is totally unclear. So instead of just being a reactionary because I get annoyed at your political posts, just answer the question. What has NATO provided verses what they have said they would provide?  What are their reserves and what could they provide that they haven't already? I have heard a large stockpile of missiles are available? Let's discuss that. I honestly don't know and I also don't know what more they could do. It is a fuckton better conversation than your typical, "Hey, that other party of which I'm not a member sucks cock".

Edited April 13 by Bevo

[Bevo 13569]

13 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

We have literally a full accounting of what is going on in Europe regarding supply via the contact group that meets in Rammstein. Anyway to answer your question:

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/03/20/czech-led-bulk-ammunition-buy-for-ukraine-picks-up-steam/

The United States is the NATO Ally that has the defense base to supply most of the more pressing needs like high-end air defense and long-range fires. We are the supplier of choice to NATO Allies for this and we in fact have pressed to ensure we maintained some of these key capabilities as part of our defense industrial base. And now we are sitting on it. 
 

Europe is contributing more per capita and in absolute terms but we are the nation that has surplus of extremely key hardware. It’s us or it doesn’t go. 

Thanks for the article. I'll read it this morning. Appreciate your help in getting this thread back on track.

[Bevo 13569]

22 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

We have literally a full accounting of what is going on in Europe regarding supply via the contact group that meets in Rammstein. Anyway to answer your question:

https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2024/03/20/czech-led-bulk-ammunition-buy-for-ukraine-picks-up-steam/

The United States is the NATO Ally that has the defense base to supply most of the more pressing needs like high-end air defense and long-range fires. We are the supplier of choice to NATO Allies for this and we in fact have pressed to ensure we maintained some of these key capabilities as part of our defense industrial base. And now we are sitting on it. 
 

Europe is contributing more per capita and in absolute terms but we are the nation that has surplus of extremely key hardware. It’s us or it doesn’t go. 

Quote

The German newspaper Bild reported this month that some of the third countries from which Prague has managed to source the rounds from include South Korea, South Africa and Turkey.

That list of countries is the same list that was in the article I provided a few days ago about the new defense suppliers for the world. So, the sourcing of the munitions should have been possible by just about anyone. I assume the issue is with coming up with the money. I guess The Czech Republic just needs to get all the money together before moving forward instead of doing a little bit at a time. But $3 billion isn't that much money. There are 500M people living in the developed West. So that is about $5 per capita. I still think crowd funding for the weapons would work.

1.5 million munitions would supply Ukraine for the year and would add 4100 munitions to the current 2000 per day for a total of 6100 munitions a day. Interestingly, that is still less than the 10000 per day that Russia is firing. It seems odd that Russia as a third world economy with 150,000,000 people can come up with that kind of money. That doesn't seem sustainable.

10,000 munitions a day by Russia does indicate that Russia is on a war footing. Putting Europe on a war footing would help mitigate the munitions difference. What would that mean for Europe? What would it need to do and what would it do to its economy?

 

[Bevo 13569]

2 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

You’re full of shit in this instance. I offered up a tweet that the us was fucking around with supporting Ukraine, of which there might be hundreds of others in this thread which people have posted and lamented. YOU inferred what you wanted from that tweet and then started spouting political bullshit and offering defense or explanation of the situation, citing BoThSiDeS nonsense and THEN off we went. You took your dog off the leash, buddy. Own it. 

The tweet was about as political as it gets. And you know it and you know what it leads to on the non-political board. The tweet was nothing of value. Own it. And get over it.

What I will own is that I should have reported it instead of responding to it. I should have let the moderators do their job instead of thinking that your work with them on funding UT sports would keep them from deleting it.

[Schulz2.0 28951]

12 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

The numbers of battle tanks was too small, surely. But so was the ability to support and fuel those tanks.  It's not just "a tank" it's an entire sustainment system that needs to operate in support of that tank. I saw an assessment that the average life span of a tank engaged in active combat is two weeks. If that is even close to correct, tanks are not the key to winning the battle. I think in today's environment, meaning drones, tanks do not make the critical difference. If they are out in the open, they get killed pretty quick. 

A bigger problem is the minefields. Russia has mined the shit out of every farmers field across the entire length of the battlefield. Out of courtesy to the Ukranians, they left open certain roads. These roads are what Americans call "kill zones". They funnel the enemy into a narrow corridor for easy targeting. I don't think anyone has the demining equipment, or the balls to sit out there and get shelled while engaged in demining operations.

Either way, I don't think a few more tanks or a few more artillery shells will win the war. And I am sure you don't think that either. As best I can tell, there is no summer offensive this year. There is no hope of a breakthrough anytime soon, and some risk of a Russian offensive success this summer. The risk of a complete Ukranian collapse is higher than that of Russia at this point.

There is no Wisdom of Solomon that can win the moment. Escalation is the only choice. Shit or get off the pot.

 No one does combined arms offensives without air superiority. It's one of the basic conditions set before starting. The lack of tanks was a big issue. Why were Russian defenses so well prepared going into Ukraine's summer offensive? Because equipment deliveries took fucking forever. 

We didn't crack the door open for Russia to gain the initiative and advance this year. We pretty much blew it open. I highly doubt Avdiivka falls if we had kept up supplies. 

[SydneyCarton 48063]

7 minutes ago, Bevo said:

The tweet was about as political as it gets. And you know it and you know what it leads to on the non-political board. The tweet was nothing of value. Own it. And get over it.

What I will own is that I should have reported it instead of responding to it. I should have let the moderators do their job instead of thinking that your work with them on funding UT sports would keep them from deleting it.

It leads to you being incapable of controlling yourself and diving into a huge political conversation? I like how you’re attempting to lecture me as if you are some unbiased third party, as if it wasn’t you who rushed headlong into the political shit. “Oh, it wasn’t my fault the bad man posted something I didn’t like, I guess I have no choice but to wade in and talk politics.” What are you, five?
 

fucking report it right now. Trust me, the mods don’t give a flying fuck about any NIL work I’ve done, and I’m not someone looking for special treatment. Fuck you for even suggesting otherwise. This board is a meritocracy.  

[956 Worldwide 34704]

15 minutes ago, Bevo said:

That list of countries is the same list that was in the article I provided a few days ago about the new defense suppliers for the world. So, the sourcing of the munitions should have been possible by just about anyone. I assume the issue is with coming up with the money. I guess The Czech Republic just needs to get all the money together before moving forward instead of doing a little bit at a time. But $3 billion isn't that much money. There are 500M people living in the developed West. So that is about $5 per capita. I still think crowd funding for the weapons would work.

1.5 million munitions would supply Ukraine for the year and would add 4100 munitions to the current 2000 per day for a total of 6100 munitions a day. Interestingly, that is still less than the 10000 per day that Russia is firing. It seems odd that Russia as a third world economy with 150,000,000 people can come up with that kind of money. That doesn't seem sustainable.

10,000 munitions a day by Russia does indicate that Russia is on a war footing. Putting Europe on a war footing would help mitigate the munitions difference. What would that mean for Europe? What would it need to do and what would it do to its economy?

 

This is ONE initiative that we are not participating in and so crapping on it unearned.  It is easy to find which nations are really in this fight. 


The United States isn’t on the screen, we are below Canada and Bulgaria.

Instead of asking why poorer Eastern European nations don’t wreck their economies and build factories they wont need, you might ask why we have such reluctance to even match a country like Croatia or officially neutral Switzerland since at scale that’s far more useful. I realize this is reality crashing into preferred political rhetoric but on something like this shouldn’t reality win? 

[Schulz2.0 28951]

19 minutes ago, Bevo said:

It seems odd that Russia as a third world economy with 150,000,000 people can come up with that kind of money. That doesn't seem sustainable.

10,000 munitions a day by Russia does indicate that Russia is on a war footing. Putting Europe on a war footing would help mitigate the munitions difference. What would that mean for Europe? What would it need to do and what would it do to its economy?

 

Russia is mortgaging it's future to fund the war. It's not like Putin gives a fuck about his people. Russia's economy is all raw materials (O&G, metals, etc). China has largely propped them up for their own gain. Europe is largely in a recession and actually has a social contract with its people. We can also add in the fact that Russian propaganda has been very effective on the smooth brained idiots.

[b_p 448]

This thread has gone full fucking CR over the last few pages.  Take it somewhere else.

[Bevo 13569]

19 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This is ONE initiative that we are not participating in and so crapping on it unearned.  It is easy to find which nations are really in this fight. 


The United States isn’t on the screen, we are below Canada and Bulgaria.

Instead of asking why poorer Eastern European nations don’t wreck their economies and build factories they wont need, you might ask why we have such reluctance to even match a country like Croatia or officially neutral Switzerland since at scale that’s far more useful. I realize this is reality crashing into preferred political rhetoric but on something like this shouldn’t reality win? 

Interesting, I thought the UK was providing a lot more than they are. I can't believe Slovakia has provided more percentage wise than both the UK and the Czech Republic.

I mistakenly thought the Czech Republic and Poland were purchasing lots of US equipment and donating their older stuff to Ukraine. I guess that really hasn't been happening.

It is also interesting that with all the bitching about Germany, they have done more percentage wise than most countries. I don't see France on the list so Macron talking shit about other countries especially Germany seems pretty messed up. Unless I'm missing something, France appears to be all talk.

Overall, the percentages pretty much match proximity to the war with the closest countries to Russia providing the most and the countries furthest away providing the least.

Overall, those numbers seem low. I'm curious how much those countries have been spending on defense as a percent of GDP. I know that they have all relied on the US but those times seem to be fading.

 

[Thetexashammer 1062]

15 minutes ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 No one does combined arms offensives without air superiority. It's one of the basic conditions set before starting. The lack of tanks was a big issue. Why were Russian defenses so well prepared going into Ukraine's summer offensive? Because equipment deliveries took fucking forever. 

We didn't crack the door open for Russia to gain the initiative and advance this year. We pretty much blew it open. I highly doubt Avdiivka falls if we had kept up supplies. 

I don't really disagree with any of that. But even if/when they get more shells, they are still playing defense. All I am saying is there is no obvious tactical path forward.

The people who really know strategy aren't talking, and the people who are talking don't know strategy. All I am saying is a thing that is sublimely obvious. It is a stalemate. Status quo means whole lot of dead people and billions of dollars and euros spent for no obvious reason. Until something changes, it will remain a stalemate. If could've done it, we would've. 

I wanted nothing more than for the Kerch bridge to fall. I think a massed missile strike would kill both bridges permanently. It didn't happen. And the Ukranians have not shut off the northern route to resupply either. So until both of those things happen, there will be no collapse.

I watched many videos where Ben Hodges was talking about how Ukraine would take Crimea last summer. I believed him. He was wrong. Crimea chokes down to about a 2 mile wide swampy bottleneck at one point. It is fully mined and targeted with missiles and artillery. The only was Ukraine is getting Crimea back is with an amphibious landing. They aren't crossing that no man's land.

Ukraine is fucking up the Russian fleet in the Black Sea. But armies win land wars, so it's awesome and makes me smile to see those guys die, but it doesn't matter. 

I disagree with the Republicans tactics, it is extremely reckless. And they are wrong on principle. They constantly say "Putin's not going to take the Baltics". Except he will, if we let him. But Ukraine will lose a war of attrition. Russia has 6x the population and 10x the economy and Putin is a dictator. He can't lose, it would end him. And we doing nothing to make him think he is going to lose. Putin will take Kyiv if we do not massively increase our commitment to winning. That's where we are now. 

[956 Worldwide 34704]

8 minutes ago, Bevo said:

Interesting, I thought the UK was providing a lot more than they are. I can't believe Slovakia has provided more percentage wise than both the UK and the Czech Republic.

I mistakenly thought the Czech Republic and Poland were purchasing lots of US equipment and donating their older stuff to Ukraine. I guess that really hasn't been happening.

It is also interesting that with all the bitching about Germany, they have done more percentage wise than most countries. I don't see France on the list so Macron talking shit about other countries especially Germany seems pretty messed up. Unless I'm missing something, France appears to be all talk.

Overall, the percentages pretty much match proximity to the war with the closest countries to Russia providing the most and the countries furthest away providing the least.

Overall, those numbers seem low. I'm curious how much those countries have been spending on defense as a percent of GDP. I know that they have all relied on the US but those times seem to be fading.

 

Well, they have been. Your idea of the size and ability of these countries is all upside down.  Yes, the Czechs have emptied a lot of their inventory and purchased a fleet of Vipers, Venoms, and F-35s (24). The Czech Republic has 10 million people. How many F-35s do you think New Jersey can buy, or the Los Angeles MSA?!
 

The $60 billion package currently being held up in the U.S. Congress is .002 of U.S. GDP, btw. That’s what we’re fighting over. 60 billion is .08 of Polish and .2 of the Czech GDP. Again, we are talking scale. We wouldn’t even move up the list of per capita but it’s a battlefield game changer THAT WE PAY TO OUR FUCKING SELVES. 

Edited April 13 by 956 Worldwide

[Thetexashammer 1062]

Source is the Kiel institute. I believe the red bars are "allocations" meaning the EU separately made a commitment, and Kiel is "allocating" that proportionally by GDP. I would be curious as to how much EU commitment has been delivered, they are a famously ineffective group who generally prefer strongly worded letters over action. 

Not scaled by GDP, obviously.

Edited April 13 by Thetexashammer

[Nivek 16923]

Be real dude, the west gave an almost negligible number of tanks (far from a metric fuck ton) to Ukraine. The western fighter jets are coming online late enough (this summer!) that a lot of Americans have given up. Expecting Ukraine to fight through THREE separate lines of mines, dragon teeth, and trenches with what they were supplied is fucking insane. How the fuck could you expect that to be successful? 

He is demanding they act like the US military because we gave them first generation old ass equipment, without supplying them with enough to conduct offensive actions or utilize combined arms tactics that our equipment is made for, because they lack the materials. Our allies have been wary of sending equipment in useful, quantities but continue to trickle stuff out.

Meanwhile, Ukraine has manpower, equipment and ammo issues, no standardization of materials because it is all legacy Russian crap mixed with NATO stuff. I have no idea if the language is in French, English or German or Ukrainian.

There is a reason we, NATO, standardized our equipment.

[SquishMitten 10403]

16 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

Almost two years ago, the guy I was sitting next to got tasked to go to DC to participate in the planning for Ukraine's summer offensive. That was our plan they executed last summer, and it didn't work.

A lot of your other points have been addressed, but I didn’t see this one talked about. 
 

A plan was made two years ago, equipment was provided for that plan (I would argue it was the bare minimum, but that’s not the point I’m making here). Said plan was then implemented well over a year later once the battle field had drastically changed. Of course it didn’t have as much success as envisioned. Arguing that we gave them everything they needed and it didn’t work is only a defensible argument if a) the plan had been executed immediately, or b) if the battlefield conditions had been the same as when the plan had been developed.

[956 Worldwide 34704]

It’s so wild to shit on these countries that are doing more than and and with donations that ultimately end up in large part in U.S. bank accounts because they are buying stuff from us.

If we increased our aid to Estonia level that would be 827 billion dollars and the war is likely over. 

[SquishMitten 10403]

14 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

The numbers of battle tanks was too small, surely. But so was the ability to support and fuel those tanks.  It's not just "a tank" it's an entire sustainment system that needs to operate in support of that tank. I saw an assessment that the average life span of a tank engaged in active combat is two weeks. If that is even close to correct, tanks are not the key to winning the battle.

How bout this. What if we fully committed our military into Ukraine? Do you know how fast we would have all those support systems in place? Do you know how fast we would have air supremacy? How fast we would break through those mine fields and defensive lines? 
 

The answer to all of those questions is “really fucking fast.” Unless you believe the US military couldn’t beat this garage Russian army, stop claiming that we gave them everything they needed. 

[Nivek 16923]

We also have an election coming up. We have a track record of abandoning our allies (see Kurds).

[Thetexashammer 1062]

2 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

How bout this. What if we fully committed our military into Ukraine? Do you know how fast we would have all those support systems in place? Do you know how fast we would have air supremacy? How fast we would break through those mine fields and defensive lines? 
 

The answer to all of those questions is “really fucking fast.” Unless you believe the US military couldn’t beat this garage Russian army, stop claiming that we gave them everything they needed. 

I made very specific recommendations. Perhaps you should read them.

[PTINS 3465]

22 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

I disagree with the Republican stance, but the argument that "Ukraine can't win and extending the war is resulting in needless slaughter" is not without merit. 

However, some of you people have been listening the QAnon a little too much. Your conspiracy theories and both insane and posted to the wrong forum. 

You sir, fucked up the most informative thread on this board. 

Please take your high school debate back and forth opinions and keep them to yourself, and off of this board.

21 hours ago, B00M said:

It is absolutely without merit. If Ukraine falls, the men, women, and children of all of Ukraine will suffer immensely for the humiliation they’ve put Putin through. The massacres, rape, and kidnapping will only possibly be dwarfed by the number of men that are forcibly conscripted and forced to fight nato on behalf of Russia. The “needless slaughter” will get WORSE and much more likely to directly involve Americans. 

Thanks.

Ukraine is fighting the same fight that my father, and you, and many before and after him fought, at a cost of maybe 2 cents on the dollar, without putting any American lives at risk.  However, they are not fighting for the same things we fought for, they are fighting to simply exist.

20 hours ago, Captainant said:

Fixed for historical comparison. This is some appeasement shit my dude. You think just giving up and letting Putin take Ukraine will satisfy his dictatorial hunger for power? 

Thanks.

Putin is the worst of humanity, on steroids, with ill gotten wealth that would make the titans of capitalism blush, and nukes. 

If it doesn't end here, it doesn't end. 

19 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

WTF?  The effective opposition to aid to Ukraine is coming from ONE faction of ONE party being driven almost entirely by ONE leader of said party.  Fucking seriously, it's not "Qanon conspiracy theory" shit when they literally say out loud what they are doing and why.  What the fuck are you even talking about?

Thanks.

16 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

Almost two years ago, the guy I was sitting next to got tasked to go to DC to participate in the planning for Ukraine's summer offensive.

You didn't even stay in the Holiday Inn? You think just sitting next to someone made you smarter? No, it didn't.

We provided them all a metric shitton of equipment, tanks, 155mm artillery, missiles, more than enough to engage in what we call, by doctrine, combined arms operations. We sent their people to our bases, where they were given training on our equipment. Lastly, we developed the war plan that they were expected to implement. We supplied all of their logistical needs. We provided everything you could need to win a battle. 

No we didn't. The war plan we developed was meant to impact day to day life in the US as little as possible, not for Ukraine to prosecute a war they could win. The US only provided weapons with a specific range, with a stipulation they would not engage certain specified Russian targets.

"... but Ukraine has nothing to show for everything that we gave them."

Nothing to show? Ukraine is in year 3 of a war that most people thought would last 3 days.  This started with “I don’t need a ride, I need ammo”, and Ukraine citizens making home aid molotov cocktails. Their fight is the most inspiring fight I have witnessed in my lifetime, because they are fighting for the right to exist.

Improving their defense, Patriot missiles or otherwise, will not win the war, merely prolong it.

Pure fucking genius.

How will a depleted, borderline elderly, and outmanned Ukrainian army engage in offensive operations and destroy the Russian army in its territory?  

Support Ukraine with new equipment and technology, so farmers don't have to fight with pitchforks and tractors. 

Under no conditions should Putin be allowed to win this, or to appear to have won, or in any way defeated the West.

Good. you're not completely ignorant.

15 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

The only reasons Ukraine is “losing” is due to lack of weapons. We all know why the supplies have stopped. This isn’t fucking rocket science. 

15 hours ago, Parliament said:

This thread done got ate up with politics, pissbagging and general stupidity.

This used to be the first thread I read every morning. The last few days have been brutal, and disappointing.  

13 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Wars and battles are won by meters, not kilometers. We, the US have a massive support organization. Maintenance, food, everything that goes into it.  Ukraine did not get that early and it takes time to build. I think people think everyone coming out of infantry school or armor school is a bad ass. Nope. Takes time to learn.

Ukraine is holding their own. It is impressive.

Thanks.

12 hours ago, Bevo said:

Well, the reason I respond to you is that you are reasonable and you fucking know better.

 I am fine with dogs at the park. But, don't take your dogs off the leash and wave at people as they pass by. 

You know the rules of the board. You broke them. 

War is political. End of story.  

The self policing and keeping this thread on topic and void of CR has been admirable, until the past few days and weeks.

Please don't fuck it up.

12 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You don’t actually have questions. You just keep repeating them because you don’t like the answer.

Thanks.

We all have questions. Perhaps some questions are better for Google, before they get asked here.

I ask them here because I appreciate that so many of you have forgotten more about more things than most will ever know.

I like this place because it usually provides the answers before the questions are even asked. You know who you are.

Thank you.

Slava Ukraini

[PTINS 3465]

Now that I finished my "No Nukes" No CR rant...

The Netflix Series, "Turning Point: The Bomb and the Cold War", is worth watching.

Heavy CR slant to the dialogue, but the "factual"nuggets were very informative. 

The last few episodes are very topical. Simply labeling Putin as a KGB honk is misleading;  His early years with a front row seat to the Berlin Wall coming down and the unraveling of the Soviet Union was much more impactful. His long term ties to the St. Petersburg mafia and the oligarchs provides a much better understanding of who and what he is and of the recent history with Ukraine.

One thing doesn't change. Putin is pure evil and must be stopped.

[Neonmoon 38129]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This is ONE initiative that we are not participating in and so crapping on it unearned.  It is easy to find which nations are really in this fight. 


The United States isn’t on the screen, we are below Canada and Bulgaria.

Instead of asking why poorer Eastern European nations don’t wreck their economies and build factories they wont need, you might ask why we have such reluctance to even match a country like Croatia or officially neutral Switzerland since at scale that’s far more useful. I realize this is reality crashing into preferred political rhetoric but on something like this shouldn’t reality win? 

Yes, but what if I posted these metrics not scaled to GDP? That might help stupid people think my argument has merit. 

[YGIFS 19449]

We also spend more gross dollars on walking shoes and bubble gum than any other country on Earth.  

"But what about as a percentage of GDP to make it a scalable comparison?" 

What do I look like, somebody who can walk and chew gum at the same time?  

[956 Worldwide 34704]

13 minutes ago, YGIFS said:

We also spend more gross dollars on walking shoes and bubble gum than any other country on Earth.  

"But what about as a percentage of GDP to make it a scalable comparison?" 

What do I look like, somebody who can walk and chew gum at the same time?  

We cold double the current supplemental request and we still would not be donating Ukraine the equivalent of 5 thousandths of our GDP, or by another metric one Elon Musk, to fight all Russia. 

Edited April 13 by 956 Worldwide

[956 Worldwide 34704]

More fun with numbers: we could implement a one-time Elon Musk tax and fund all of the current Ukraine supplemental with less than half of his worth.

Elon would still have enough left over to purchase at least 4 Gerald Ford class nuclear aircraft carriers. 

The idea that we are even marginally impacting our economy with this is just laughable. 

[atomheartbevo 89629]

Remember the Texan who went off to fight for Russia against Ukraine years ago?

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/us-journalist-missing-russian-controlled-eastern-ukraine-say-local-police-2024-04-12/

Quote

Russell Bentley, an American who fought against Ukrainian forces, is missing in the Russian-controlled Donetsk region in eastern Ukraine, police there said on Friday, adding that a search was under way.

Bentley went missing on April 8, they said. The online news outlet Mash said he had disappeared after a district in the city of Donetsk was shelled by Ukrainian forces. Mash cited his wife as saying he had gone to see if anyone needed help but had not returned. She was quoted as saying she had found his car with his baseball cap in it along with his smashed mobile phone and a pair of glasses.

Quote

Bentley, 64, is a self-declared supporter of Russian-backed forces in Ukraine. He joined pro-Russian fighters in eastern Ukraine in 2014 and used the military call-sign "Texas", the Russian state news agency RIA reported.

 

It said Bentley had later swapped his gun for journalism and had worked with the Sputnik news agency, another state-owned entity, and obtained Russian citizenship.

[YGIFS 19449]

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

We cold double the current supplemental request and we still would not be donating Ukraine the equivalent of 5 thousandths of our GDP, or by another metric one Elon Musk, to fight all Russia. 

Yeah, if you take into account what we spent on anti-Warsaw PACT defense for decades, plus star wars, plus base/facility G&A after the USSR breakup........what we could spend in 3+ years on bringing Russia to its knees.

Probably 2% of that previous amount.  Of course you gotta adjust difference in 1983 money and 2023 money, which I'm too lazy to do on a Saturday.  But I'd bet I'm in the ballpark.  

It costs how tens of trillions to break the USSR during the Cold War.  And now we can it again for 100bn in today's money?  Yeah, I'm taking that deal.  

Same people that bitch about U.S. Foreign Aid "Why we spending half our budget on other countries, when we got our own problems at home?"  Well, for one---they prove over and over again they don't care about the shit that needs attention here at home.  And secondly, we have been spending ~1% on foreign aid for decades.  That's it, that's all.  Now, it's a lot of money in terms of cash expenditure, but it's been a drop of a drop of a drop in the bucket for decades and in most cases, goes much further than 10x its amount in military posturing abroad.  Plus it tends to be sticky money in the sense that once it gets spent, it tends to attract American and International non-profits and other foreign governments to jump in with more money and resources and personnel.  I don't know the force multiplier but it is substantial.  /rant 

[956 Worldwide 34704]

19 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Remember the Texan who went off to fight for Russia against Ukraine years ago?

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/us-journalist-missing-russian-controlled-eastern-ukraine-say-local-police-2024-04-12/

[blacklab 11926]

For fucks sake.

Go spend some time with my family and then play some poker and come back to this fucking shit fest.

This thread is for news about Ukraine, not for your hot takes on US politics or how you would spend money. Those are topics for the CR thread about Ukraine.

I'm not going to waste my time cleaning this up, but any slightly CR posts after this one are getting deleted and resulting in time off

 

[InkaUtexas 25874]

KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — Ukraine’s military chief on Saturday warned that the battlefield situation in the industrial east has “significantly worsened in recent days,” as warming weather allowed Russian forces to launch a fresh push along several stretches of the more 1,000 km-long (620-mile) front line.

In an update on the Telegram messaging app, Gen. Oleksandr Syrskyy said that Moscow had “significantly” ramped up its assaults since President Vladimir Putin extended his nearly quarter-century rule in a preordained election last month that saw anti-war candidates barred from the ballot and independent voices silenced in a Kremlin-backed media blockade.

According to Syrskyy, Russian forces have been “actively attacking” Ukrainian positions in three areas of the eastern Donetsk region, near the cities of Lyman, Bakhmut and Pokrovsk, and beginning to launch tank assaults as drier, warmer spring weather has made it easier for heavy vehicles to move across previously muddy terrain

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-tokmak-007dcac6cbce356688720479f725bc7c

[Bevo 13569]

5 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

KYIV, Ukraine (AP) — Ukraine’s military chief on Saturday warned that the battlefield situation in the industrial east has “significantly worsened in recent days,” as warming weather allowed Russian forces to launch a fresh push along several stretches of the more 1,000 km-long (620-mile) front line.

In an update on the Telegram messaging app, Gen. Oleksandr Syrskyy said that Moscow had “significantly” ramped up its assaults since President Vladimir Putin extended his nearly quarter-century rule in a preordained election last month that saw anti-war candidates barred from the ballot and independent voices silenced in a Kremlin-backed media blockade.

According to Syrskyy, Russian forces have been “actively attacking” Ukrainian positions in three areas of the eastern Donetsk region, near the cities of Lyman, Bakhmut and Pokrovsk, and beginning to launch tank assaults as drier, warmer spring weather has made it easier for heavy vehicles to move across previously muddy terrain

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-tokmak-007dcac6cbce356688720479f725bc7c

@InkaUtexas you are suppose to talk me off the ledge. Not a good day for the world.

[MissingInAction 25017]

[NorthLoop 14183]

46 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Remember the Texan who went off to fight for Russia against Ukraine years ago?

 

https://www.reuters.com/business/media-telecom/us-journalist-missing-russian-controlled-eastern-ukraine-say-local-police-2024-04-12/

Wonder if he got splattered by a mortar or is currently being waterboarded in a Ukrainian basement.

[InkaUtexas 25874]

Just now, Bevo said:

@InkaUtexas you are suppose to talk me off the ledge. Not a good day for the world.

Sorry man.

[YGIFS 19449]

This is a completely non-partisan group that is pretty much the U.S. Government's tacit arm of foreign aid/support in Ukraine.  

this is a very recent, comprehensive analysis of where previous money has gone and why more is needed.  And how it follows alongside military action and asset procurement: 

https://www.usglc.org/resources/ukraine-assistance-factsheet/

There are some quotes by politicians in it, but as you'll see it's no CR.  It's folks of all stripes, career diplomats, and a shit ton of general/flag officers.  What's interesting is if you start following USGLC...you can start to tell where Ukraine military vulnerabilities are from a military standpoint.  Because they'll start to move civilians out, setup medical posts, enhance logistics/transportation.  These are seriously decorated O-7+ folks and former CIA station chiefs.  Now Russia can obviously use this tool as well but they already know where they're headed.  Or maybe it's all a trap, I dunno-I'm dumb.  But give this report a read this weekend and stay on their email list.  It's about as close as you can get to knowing what all we're up to over there aside from weapons system donations.  

[Thetexashammer 1062]

What's not included in the analysis of contributions is the active duty support we are providing them. The SAG-U has been in charge of coordinating international aid shipments since the beginning, and it's always been funded and operated by the US, even before it was formally stood up as I think a 2 star command. I am linking everything I say now so there is no issue. But I will say the fuckers took my parking spot. 

Press Release - US Department of Defense establishes Security Assistance Group-Ukraine in Wiesbaden > U.S. Army Europe and Africa > Article View Press Release

Of course, it is also public that we are in charge of the actual handoff of materiel to the Ukrainians. 

How a tiny Polish airport became a key node for Western aid to Ukraine - Defense One

Quote

More mundane but no less important were the logistical burdens. Eighty percent of allied military aid flows through Poland, much of it through Rzeszów-Jasionka. 

Of course we are training them at our bases, that is also public. New unit of Ukrainian troops training in Grafenwoehr as US soldiers from Mississippi take over mission | Stars and Stripes

Edited April 13 by Thetexashammer

[B00M 6414]

4 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

Ukraine is fucking up the Russian fleet in the Black Sea. But armies win land wars, so it's awesome and makes me smile to see those guys die, but it doesn't matter. 

Except it does matter. A lot. An Odesa invasion would’ve been much easier for Russia with that fleet that included several landing ships. Much of Ukraine’s economy is agricultural exports through the Black Sea. Those went to zero when Russia dominated the sea. Now they’re back to like 60% of pre-war levels if I recall. To sustain this “stalemate” until Russia breaks requires a mostly functional Ukrainian economy.  

[bolverk 29656]

1 hour ago, PTINS said:

Now that I finished my "No Nukes" No CR rant...

The Netflix Series, "Turning Point: The Bomb and the Cold War", is worth watching.

Heavy CR slant to the dialogue, but the "factual"nuggets were very informative. 

The last few episodes are very topical. Simply labeling Putin as a KGB honk is misleading;  His early years with a front row seat to the Berlin Wall coming down and the unraveling of the Soviet Union was much more impactful. His long term ties to the St. Petersburg mafia and the oligarchs provides a much better understanding of who and what he is and of the recent history with Ukraine.

One thing doesn't change. Putin is pure evil and must be stopped.

Seconded. This is an excellent series, and I highly recommend it.

 

[Thetexashammer 1062]

12 minutes ago, B00M said:

Except it does matter. A lot. An Odesa invasion would’ve been much easier for Russia with that fleet that included several landing ships. Much of Ukraine’s economy is agricultural exports through the Black Sea. Those went to zero when Russia dominated the sea. Now they’re back to like 60% of pre-war levels if I recall. To sustain this “stalemate” until Russia breaks requires a mostly functional Ukrainian economy.  

Except the Ukraine sea drone success is recent. Ukraine has been exporting grain from Odessa long before they fucked up the Russian fleet. They had a formal agreement with Russia to do it, then when Russia walked away, the Ukranians just kept exporting and the ships moved unmolested.

People continue to insist that Thanos will snap his fingers and all the Russian soldiers will die. That's not reality. Russia won't quit until Putin is gone, and there is zero sign he is about to be killed. In fact, there is good evidence of broad public support for the war inside Russia. 

Edited April 13 by Thetexashammer

[YGIFS 19449]

If there's one thing I trust more than Putin's commitment to election integrity, it's Russian polling on war popularity.  

[B00M 6414]

1 minute ago, Thetexashammer said:

Except the Ukraine sea drone success is recent. Ukraine has been exporting grain from Odessa long before they fucked up the Russian fleet.

People continue to insist that Thanos will snap his fingers and all the Russian soldiers will die. That's not reality. Russia won't quit until Putin is gone, and there is zero sign he is about to be killed. In fact, there is good evidence of broad public support for the war inside Russia. 

You’re oversimplifying the battle of the Black Sea and the conditions that could lead to Russia’s defeat. Why are you here making these seemingly intentionally obtuse arguments? Did you get booed out of the CR or something? 

[bolverk 29656]

Ukrainians' love for coffee PROVES they belong with the West. But seriously, this is a good read, and I hope it makes everyone's weekend a little brighter by making y'all feel better about Ukraine.

 

War or No War, Ukrainians Aren’t Giving Up Their Coffee
Coffee shops and kiosks are everywhere in Ukraine’s capital, their popularity both an act of wartime defiance and a symbol of closer ties to the rest of Europe.

When Russian tanks first rolled into Ukraine more than two years ago, Artem Vradii was sure his business was bound to suffer.

“Who would think about coffee in this situation?” thought Mr. Vradii, the co-founder of a Kyiv coffee roastery named Mad Heads. “Nobody would care.”

But over the next few days after the invasion began, he started receiving messages from Ukrainian soldiers. One asked for bags of ground coffee because he could not stand the energy drinks supplied by the army. Another simply requested beans: He had taken his own grinder to the front.

“I was really shocked,” Mr. Vradii said in a recent interview at his roastery, a 40-foot-high brick building buzzing with the sound of grinding coffee and filled with the smell of freshly ground beans. “Despite the war, people were still thinking about coffee. They could leave their homes, their habits. But they could not live without coffee.”

The soldiers’ requests are just one facet of a little-known cornerstone of the Ukrainian lifestyle today: its vibrant coffee culture.

Over the past decade, coffee shops have proliferated across Ukraine, in cities large and small. That is particularly true in Kyiv, the capital, where small coffee kiosks staffed by trained baristas serving tasty mochas for less than $2 have become a fixture of the streetscape.

Walk into one of Kyiv’s hidden courtyards and there’s a good chance you’ll find a coffee shop with baristas busy perfecting their latte art behind the counter.

Coffee culture has flourished globally — even in tea-obsessed Britain — but in Ukraine over the past two years, it has taken on a special meaning as a sign of resilience and defiance.

“Everything will be fine,” said Maria Yevstafieva, an 18-year-old barista who was preparing a latte on a recent morning in a Kyiv coffee shop that had just been damaged by a missile attack. The shop’s glass window had been shattered by the blast and had fallen onto the counter, but Ms. Yevstafieva was unfazed.

“How can they break us?” she is heard saying in a video, referring to the Russian Army. “We have a strike, we make coffee.”

THIS BUBBLY GIRL SEEMS LIKE A TYPICAL AMERICAN TEENAGER.

 

CONT'D:

Spoiler

Before the war, Ukraine was one of the fastest-growing coffee markets in Europe, according to the Allegra World Coffee Portal, a research group. In Kyiv, the number of coffee shops continued to grow even after the Russian invasion, reaching some 2,500 shops today, according to Pro-Consulting, a Ukrainian marketing research group.

The Girkiy chain, for example, is hard to miss in the capital, with more than 70 coffee shops. Its mint-colored kiosks stand at the foot of centuries-old Orthodox churches and around Kyiv’s main squares.

On a recent afternoon, Yelyzaveta Holota, an 18-year-old barista, was busy in her kiosk preparing orders. She had been on the job for only four months, but she already had a confident touch: She weighed the ground coffee, tamped it into a portafilter and, after pouring an espresso into a cup, gave it a little swirl to bring out the flavors.

The technique has to be perfect, she said, because the competition is fierce. Six other coffee shops line the street where she works in central Kyiv, including a second one from Girkiy, which means “bitter” in Ukrainian.

Founded in 2015, the chain used to serve low-quality coffee, focusing instead on speed. But in 2020, Oleh Astashev, the founder, visited the Barn in Berlin, a craft coffee institution that roasts its own coffee.

The visit impressed and inspired him. Back in Kyiv, he built his own roastery, bought top-of-the-range Italian coffee machines and started training his baristas.

“We changed everything: the name, the service, the products, the quality of the coffee beans, the quality of the water,” he said. “Anybody should be able to drink high-quality coffee.”

The chain’s former name was “Gorkiy,” or bitter in Russian.

Mr. Astashev’s story reflects how the country’s coffee boom is linked to its broader rapprochement with Europe.

After Ukraine’s revolution on Maidan Square in 2014, which toppled a pro-Russian president, the country strengthened its ties to Europe, including through visa-free entry for its citizens. Many Ukrainians traveled west, discovering a coffee culture that had not yet penetrated their borders. Soon enough, they were bringing it back home.

“We wanted our coffee shops in Kyiv to be like in Europe,” said Maryna Dobzovolska, 39, who co-founded the Right Coffee Bar with her husband, Oleksii Gurtov, in 2017.

Ask Ukraine’s coffee entrepreneurs about Vienna’s famous coffeehouses or Italy’s signature espresso and they’ll dismiss them as a “conservative” and “old-fashioned” view of coffee culture.

Their model was cities like Berlin and Stockholm, where a so-called third wave of coffee shops has mushroomed in the past two decades, emphasizing high-quality beans and innovative recipes.

Most recently, Ms. Dobzovolska and Mr. Gurtov have been experimenting with anaerobic coffee, a processing method that involves fermenting coffee in sealed tanks without oxygen, giving the beverage fruity flavors.

“Try it. You’ll love it,” Mr. Gurtov, 49, said as he poured the steaming, purple drink.

Always willing to push the boundaries, Ukrainian baristas have also popularized the “Capuorange” — a double shot of espresso mixed with fresh orange juice — now on sale everywhere in Kyiv.

Several foreigners said they were amazed by the quality of the coffee in a country that, since the Soviet era, had consumed mostly instant coffee.

“This is the best coffee in the world,” said Michael McLaughlin, a 51-year-old American who does volunteer work in Ukraine, as he ordered an Americano on Maidan Square on a recent afternoon.

Some say it’s simply a return to Ukraine’s roots.

Legend has it that the man who opened the first cafe in Vienna in the late 17th century was Jerzy Kulczycki, a soldier born in modern-day Ukraine. He is honored with a life-size statue in Lviv that praises him as the war hero “who taught Europe to drink coffee.”

Volodymyr Efremov, a coffee roaster at Idealist, a major Ukrainian coffee brand, said his goal was now to “popularize” specialty coffee all around the country.

In today’s Ukraine, there is perhaps no better way to achieve that goal than with the army. Every month, Idealist and other coffee producers give the military tens of thousands of drip coffee bags — single-serve, pour-over sachets filled with ground coffee. These are some of the finest products on the Ukrainian coffee market.

On social networks, soldiers have posted videos of themselves pouring hot water into drip coffee bags placed on iron cups before savoring the steaming drink in a log trench.

Standing near an artillery position last year, a junior Ukrainian sergeant, Maksim — who did not give his family name as per military rules — was boiling water in a small white kettle, a bag of Mad Heads ground coffee at his side. His unit had just fired an Australian-manufactured howitzer at Russian targets on the southern front, and he was in the mood for a good cup of coffee.

For five straight minutes he discussed the degree of water mineralization needed to achieve the perfect brew, the quality of the single-origin beans that make it “taste like honey-alcohol-banana coffee” and how the drink should be sipped to “perceive more flavors.”

Maksim, whose call sign is Stayer, said his fellow soldiers had found the Mad Heads coffee “delicious and asked where I got it.”

“I said, ‘Guys, it’s the 21st century. Let’s eat properly, even if we’re in the military.’”

 

In the spoiler below are a bunch of photos taken for this story.

Spoiler

In Kyiv, Ukraine, coffee kiosks staffed by trained baristas serving tasty mochas for less than $2 have become a fixture of the streetscape.
 

Yelyzaveta Holota, 18, serving an Americano at a Girkiy kiosk in Kyiv.
 

Customers at the Idealist coffee shop and cafe in Kyiv. Volodymyr Efremov, a coffee roaster at Idealist, said his goal was to popularize specialty coffee around the country.
 

Oleg Kamluk sitting in Kashtan, a trendy coffee shop he owns in Kyiv.
 

A coffee kiosk in Independence Square in Kyiv. The number of coffee shops in the city continued to grow even after the Russian invasion, reaching some 2,500 currently.

 

Bohdan Riabiik, a 24-year-old barista, at Kashtan in Kyiv.
 

Workers at Mad Heads. At the start of the war, Mad Heads’ co-founder began receiving messages from Ukrainian soldiers asking for ground coffee and beans to take to the front.
 

Every month, Idealist and other coffee producers give the military tens of thousands of drip coffee bags.

[YGIFS 19449]

0:40 mark for Ukraine reaction to fewer beans:

 

[Nivek 16923]

I admire the barista girl's (blue sweater) composure, but she needs to lay off the product.  She sounds like Spud during a job interview.

Edited April 13 by Nivek

[atomheartbevo 89629]

4 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

In fact, there is good evidence of broad public support for the war inside Russia. 

The Russian media is not allowed to criticize Putin or the Special Military Operation or they get shut down and their employees jailed.  Russian people are not allowed to criticize Putin or the Special Military Operation or they get jailed. You get hauled off to jail just for standing in public and holding up a blank piece of paper.

So how much support he actually has is unknown, because the fear is real.

[InkaUtexas 25874]

Evil fucks.

Ukraine war: Russian double-tap strikes hit civilians then rescuers too

On the night of 3 April, a swarm of Russian drones attacked Kharkiv, in Ukraine's northeast.

The country's second-largest city has been targeted almost incessantly since the start of Russia's full-scale invasion.

But this time was worse than usual, because, when rescue workers arrived at the scene, there was a second strike. Three of them were killed.

The following Friday, it happened again when Russian missiles hit Zaporizhzhia, a major city in Ukraine's southeast.

Rescuers and journalists rushed to the scene, and then two more missiles hit.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68761490

[3 Stacks 9]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

The Russian media is not allowed to criticize Putin or the Special Military Operation or they get shut down and their employees jailed.  Russian people are not allowed to criticize Putin or the Special Military Operation or they get jailed. You get hauled off to jail just for standing in public and holding up a blank piece of paper.

So how much support he actually has is unknown, because the fear is real.

Do you know any Russians? Or any expats with family still there? Unfortunately, broadly the support is real, because the Russian media control is complete. They don’t know any better. Hoping for revolt from within is nonstarter. 

[Sawbonz 27542]

6 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

there is good evidence of broad public support for the war inside Russia. 

[InkaUtexas 25874]

7 minutes ago, 3 Stacks said:

Do you know any Russians? Or any expats with family still there? Unfortunately, broadly the support is real, because the Russian media control is complete. They don’t know any better. Hoping for revolt from within is nonstarter. 

Yeah cuz there has never been an internal revolt in Russia. Lenin going back was the catalyst. The revolt had already started.

And I do. Worked with quite a few of them. Have studied the country quite a bit. They are just a larger Serbia with worse booze and food.