Русский корабль - иди нахуй

[davidg 4025]

9 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

Not if his chef has built up a tolerance to iocaine powder

Inconceivable!

[BamaATL 16592]

1 minute ago, Constant said:

Wish it were that simple. They deserve help.

Can we covertly buy more Turkish Drones and get them into their hands?

[NoName 16271]

1 minute ago, Constant said:

Wish it were that simple. They deserve help.

yes, they deserve help.

yes, they need help.

and if they were part of NATO or the EU (and have had 30 years to do so) they would have received help in this exact situation.

...but they have not shown that much interest in actually doing either until Russian troops were literally marching to Kyiv.

[Saint Austin 743]

2 minutes ago, Constant said:

Wish it were that simple. They deserve help.

Aside from its effectiveness, I don't see the difference in providing guns, ammo, Javelins, etc. vs. planes. Why are planes the red line?

[TexasEd 8062]

11 hours ago, atomheartbevo said:

You haven't prowled around the Dark Web, where for $1,250 you can have somebody walk into a business, announce that such-and-such person who works there better stop trying to have sex with this 13 year-old daughter or he's going to have him arrested.  It just so happens that the such-and-such person he mentioned was an asshole to you in school almost 30 years ago, constantly calling you skinny, telling everybody that you keyed his dad's '87 Grand National, (which you actually did do, and in hindsight 40-something you still shudders at the memory of the sound of your keys scratching the shit out of it), and that you were trying to get in the panties of your English teacher (which you were trying to do, but it was embarrassing to be called out for it).

Anyways, that's all hypothetical, but the point is, you can do this kind of shit in the US (put a bounty out for somebody, even if it's to arrest them), and it probably happens a lot.

The real money is in allowing the victim to bid against the "hit".  Like one of those "get out of jail" fundraisers.  plug crowdsourcing in and boom!

Off to file a patent or something...

[Constant 6718]

Just now, Saint Austin said:

Aside from its effectiveness, I don't see the difference in providing guns, ammo, Javelins, etc. vs. planes. Why are planes the red line?

An American would be flying it. 

[Constant 6718]

2 minutes ago, NoName said:

yes, they deserve help.

yes, they need help.

and if they were part of NATO or the EU (and have had 30 years to do so) they would have received help in this exact situation.

...but they have not shown that much interest in actually doing either until Russian troops were literally marching to Kyiv.

Relax. You already said all that. Everyone saw it. 

[Saint Austin 743]

Just now, Constant said:

An American would be flying it. 

No one in NATO has planes Ukrainian pilots can fly?

[FartingMonk 3606]

13 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

A world where great powers announce that they’re going to rewind to 1820 and just take over countries they want or don’t like is a threat to the international order in a way no proxy war or Islamic insurgency can be.  Just how it is.

A return to that order is far more threatening to the Global South, too. Many progressives have failed to grasp that Russian designs in Ukraine are colonial at their core and threaten to revive an explicitly colonial world. 

Holy shit.  That is everything.  We as humans are flawed people and we build systems because we know our flaws.  But we let the checks and balances decay over time because we see it as overbearing because we haven't seen firsthand what happens if we don't.  So you have someone keep overstepping that boundary.  

I was on the phone with my new boss last night and he asked what my expectations were and I told him there is stuff written on paper to protect the workers but how much of it is actually true.  You let a middle manager get out of control and it stinks everything up.  The UN being the boss is not supposed to let stuff like Russia and Ukraine get to that point but the UN chose to ignore it so middle manager (Russia) says well fuck if no one is doing anything it means I'm right.

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3867]

51 minutes ago, Superhero said:

I'm not too familiar with simplified Chinese characters, but essentially said "The Russian stock market dropped to its lowest point in history. What effects will it have?"

It's been discussed already Xi gonna squeeze Putin's balls hard while he down. Vlad I have sent you a docusign for those 30% annual loans we discuss.

[Constant 6718]

Just now, Saint Austin said:

No one in NATO has planes Ukrainian pilots can fly?

That I don’t know. 

[Doc Reeves 6434]

2 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Agree with you, but Latin America and the Middle East are choosing very poorly when it comes to allegiances with Russia if they’re worried about a new colonialism.  I obviously expected it from Venezuela and the shadier OPEC countries, but much of Central and South America clearly have way more Russian and Chinese influence than I expected.  

Mexico, Brazil, et al … good luck with all that. 

well, “colonialism” is being shopped to many countries as ‘alliance’ and ‘protection’ that some nations find attractive. Cuba a land China come to mind.
it’s just a carrot and stick situation and in the end just affords stability to the colonizing county. In SA, some of the messes are so deep, cultural or historical that it is more effective from a cost and effort perspective to “handle” the county instead of making it an equal partner. 

[texastough 1128]

57 minutes ago, ShaggyBevo RIP said:

This gets to;

-Is the convoy actually the mother of all trojan horses? It's been there for nearly two days without being attacked.

-Out of fuel?

-Parking supplies out in the countryside until the troops that were supposed to be there are actually there?

-Some commander firing up the Benny Hill sound track trying to get his troops to the option of surrender? Likely a death sentence for him.

- plain old hubris combined with a side of incompetence?

 

Bait, trying to draw NATO countries into the conflict, or mechanical and supply issues. While I lead toward the former, since otherwise you would space it out more for security, it could be the latter simply because the front needs resupply so badly

[NoName 16271]

Just now, Saint Austin said:

Aside from its effectiveness, I don't see the difference in providing guns, ammo, Javelins, etc. vs. planes. Why are planes the red line?

there is a HUGE difference in sending intelligence, ammo, weapons and military equipment vs flying F35 flights over Kyiv.

---

you aren't putting your troops in harms way when it's military equipment and you stay out of starting a literal world-wide war with Russia this way.

if you start flying planes, you have to enforce a no fly zone.

...if you start enforcing a no fly zone, you are shooting down planes.

...if you start shooting down planes, you start a literal hot war with Russia.

starting a hot war with a nuclear power over a country that is not in your alliance, has shown limited interest in joining and doesn't have widespread support (for troops) among allies = a bad move.
 

[Saint Austin 743]

2 minutes ago, NoName said:

there is a HUGE difference in sending intelligence, ammo, weapons and military equipment vs flying F35 flights over Kyiv.

---

you aren't putting your troops in harms way when it's military equipment and you stay out of starting a literal world-wide war with Russia this way.

if you start flying planes, you have to enforce a no fly zone.

...if you start enforcing a no fly zone, you are shooting down planes.

...if you start shooting down planes, you start a literal hot war with Russia.

starting a hot war with a nuclear power over a country that is not in your alliance, has shown limited interest in joining and doesn't have widespread support (for troops) among allies = a bad move.
 

That's why I'm asking about donating planes to Ukraine's military for Ukrainian personnel. Not NATO pilots over Ukraine. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Saint Austin
typo

[clapclapclap 9000]

28 minutes ago, The Dog said:

He says that NATO won't counterattack if Russia invades a NATO member. That is not true.

Are you certain?  China and Russia have both long believed that they could first strike some type of nuke in various situations and the west would not respond in kind.  If Russia hit a Polish base or city with even their smallest nuke, NATO probably fractures.  Massive crowds would hit the streets of European capitols chanting, "It's not worth it, peace now.  Settle this!"  As we've seen in so many wars, angry rah rah defiance can often spring up early in a war, but long term commitment is much more difficult when the threat becomes real at home.  Former Soviet states might still maintain enough will, but I have strong doubts about Germany, Spain, Italy, etc.  I also doubt that currently our own govt would respond in kind.  "Ultimately we must do what saves the most lives."

Of course there are many, many ways this war could be incrementally escalated, I'm not implying that such a surprise, measured nuke strike would be likely.  But it is very possible, a potential checkmate at.  And your specific point was about invasion, not a nuke strike, but the threat is always there.

So much depends if Putin's endgame is just Ukraine, or a demilitarization fantasy for the rest of the former eastern bloc, or a combined Russia-China (-Iran proxy) asymmetrical cold world war three.  Too much debt in Europe and way, way too much debt in the US.  We're in end of WWII territory at the start of this war, with the Fed in a bad position.  If the Axis of Evil actually has the ability to knock off a major part of our electric grid for an extended period of time, it could have a similar economic impact of a Great Depression.  (No, I don't expect the doomsday scenario of widespread social chaos, other than some usual trouble spots we'd get through it like other wartime hardships.)  If they have the ability, power outage attempts are likely if we actually try to cut off Russia's oil exports and extend SWIFT to that.  If the US and Europe economies are heavily weakened, the attempt to de-dollarize energy in the BRICs may succeed.  Which with our debt bomb would produce another huge economic blow to the US.  A bad reset. 

Then there are the critical weak points we've allowed to develop.  The economic pain of supply issues of furniture/car chips/phones are nuisances and short term job losses, but China cutting off a large part of our prescription drugs would be huge.  Add in some strategic terror attacks, perhaps through proxies or false flags, and we face some major political instabilities (we'll get through those, but it could further tie up us and our allies for awhile.) 

Brisket's grave concern is warranted in this case.  We have to play smart and sober, not the hope, wish, and denial of the past.  I don't worry much about MAD, I worry about a combined Russia-China-proxies asymmetrical war.  They've been wargaming and planning such for over a decade.

(/no SLXpress)  

[Ag with kids 581]

3 minutes ago, Saint Austin said:

No one in NATO has planes Ukrainian pilots can fly?

All of the Ukrainian aircraft are Soviet/Russian - Sukhois and MiGs...

Probably not a lot of those in the NATO inventory.

[Doc Reeves 6434]

3 minutes ago, NoName said:

there is a HUGE difference in sending intelligence, ammo, weapons and military equipment vs flying F35 flights over Kyiv.

---

you aren't putting your troops in harms way when it's military equipment and you stay out of starting a literal world-wide war with Russia this way.

if you start flying planes, you have to enforce a no fly zone.

...if you start enforcing a no fly zone, you are shooting down planes.

...if you start shooting down planes, you start a literal hot war with Russia.

starting a hot war with a nuclear power over a country that is not in your alliance, has shown limited interest in joining and doesn't have widespread support (for troops) among allies = a bad move.
 

 

Very much so. I would doubt with this administration we are doing that already and if we aren’t then its going to be a bitch to start with Congress watching

[phdhorn 6224]

Thread has at least temporarily meandered over to a little bit of a geopolitical discussion, although not a bad one; after reading the last page or two, two thoughts:

1) agree with most of NoNames posts... It's maddening to stand by and feel like your hands are tied as Ukraine suffers, but the line is pretty clear to me that at least for now going in and making offensive military moves in a non-NATO country is not warranted at least, and insanity at most -the line is clear on that. Meanwhile, aid and money is about the best we can do.

2) in no way, shape, or form should we acquiesce in any way to the present Iranian government. Whether we can stop their nukes is one thing, and I wouldn't assist Israel if they tried +as they often do). But to give nuclear concessions to radical islamists (and many of them are!) would be psychotic. I'm not talking about the population. Ten years ago Romney was pilloried for saying Russia is our biggest future threat when it seemed like that was just so off the radar it was silly. Now, 10 years later when the Islamic threat has at least temporarily greatly subsided, it would be equally idiotic to assume that we don't have to worry about that, either. There will always be an Islamic threat as long as radical Muslims have power somewhere. Maybe we don't need to keep both eyes on it right now, but certainly one.

[NoName 16271]

Just now, Saint Austin said:

That's why I'm asking about donating planes to Ukraine's military for Ukrainian personnel. Not NATO-flagged planes or pilots over Ukraine. 

it's a training and logistical issue as far as i know? you can't just drop a couple of F-35's or even A-10s in Kyiv, let a UKR pilot take it and fly it and expect them to be successful. i think i read there were going to be learning curves with POL MiG-29s (which the UKR Air Force flies) when there was talk about them donating some?

AFAIK, no one has actually donated any planes - that is no mistake - just a lot of hurdles to get between "hey here is a plane" and said plane flying in the UKR AF

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3867]

43 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

Next they are going to tell us Rubio is twitting in real time as a State Dept mouthpiece.

[BabaYaga 15202]

2 minutes ago, NoName said:

there is a HUGE difference in sending intelligence, ammo, weapons and military equipment vs flying F35 flights over Kyiv.

---

you aren't putting your troops in harms way when it's military equipment and you stay out of starting a literal world-wide war with Russia this way.

if you start flying planes, you have to enforce a no fly zone.

...if you start enforcing a no fly zone, you are shooting down planes.

...if you start shooting down planes, you start a literal hot war with Russia.

starting a hot war with a nuclear power over a country that is not in your alliance, has shown limited interest in joining and doesn't have widespread support (for troops) among allies = a bad move.
 

This

Proxy wars have a considerable amount of recent precedent (Cuba, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, etc).  

We don't need to get directly involved at this stage.  It ratchets things up to levels that neither side can possibly control.  We can support Ukraine as we have been, but that is as far as we need to go.  

[BabaYaga 15202]

6 minutes ago, Saint Austin said:

That's why I'm asking about donating planes to Ukraine's military for Ukrainian personnel. Not NATO pilots over Ukraine. 

What NATO country has planes with operating systems that Uke pilots are familiar with or know how to use?  

[DigglerontheHoof 21022]

Doesn’t the US have attack drones?  Sell them to Ukraine and let’s fly them from over here.  No way to prove who is controlling them, right?

Claim Ukraine bought and is flying them.  

[Don Johnson 4744]

Need this to happen

 

[Doc Reeves 6434]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

What NATO country has planes with operating systems that Uke pilots are familiar with or know how to use?  

Yep.

 

When you send your equipment, you also have to send “advisors”. There’s plenty to read about how that goes

[Constant 6718]

1 minute ago, BabaYaga said:

What NATO country has planes with operating systems that Uke pilots are familiar with or know how to use?  

Bulgaria, Croatia, Romania, Poland, Slovakia, I would think. 

[Ag with kids 581]

Just now, BabaYaga said:

What NATO country has planes with operating systems that Uke pilots are familiar with or know how to use?  

Poland has some MiG-29s...but, there'd probably still be a decent amount of training if they're different models than the Ukrainian pilots are used to...

[Doc Reeves 6434]

Just now, Don Johnson said:

Need this to happen

 

 

Now isn’t the best time for a white male to try and tell everyone what to do. Just sayin

[Pescado_Rojo 19327]

1 minute ago, Ag with kids said:

Poland has some MiG-29s...but, there'd probably still be a decent amount of training if they're different models than the Ukrainian pilots are used to...

From what I've read, only about half are combat ready, and all have NATO COMMS and have to be converted back to Eastern Bloc comms and nav gear. 

[BabaYaga 15202]

Just now, Constant said:

Bulgaria, Croatia, Romania, Poland, Slovakia, I would think. 

Maybe?  Possibly?  But most are now or have recently been upgrading to more western platforms.  Croatia just bought a bunch of French planes.  Poland has MIGs, but have tried to upgrade with F-16's....and so on.  So hard to say 

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3867]

16 minutes ago, Saint Austin said:

Aside from its effectiveness, I don't see the difference in providing guns, ammo, Javelins, etc. vs. planes. Why are planes the red line?

Cause allowing a couple of Warthogs to mow down that stuck column in 15 minutes means we and NATO are openly and directly in WWIII with Russia.

How many times does it have to said? 

[Foosters 17691]

3 minutes ago, Don Johnson said:

Need this to happen

 

Hey, if we're bringing him into this:

"You are, all of you, amateurs. And international affairs should never be run by gentlemen amateurs. Do you have any idea of what sort of place the world is becoming all around you?"

[dcbc 14388]

17 minutes ago, Saint Austin said:

That's why I'm asking about donating planes to Ukraine's military for Ukrainian personnel. Not NATO pilots over Ukraine. 

It was discussed a while back (and just above as I'm now reading), but outfitting Western type aircraft so the Ukranians could understand the control set and then training them to fly the aircraft is extremely time consuming.  Modern warplanes (and I use the term modern loosely) are not a one size fits all proposition, from what I read posted here earlier.  We are better off finding some SU-25s and Migs to get into there hands.  But I don't know how difficult that is.

 

/Insert Independence Day:  Down - Up - Left - Right placard here.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by dcbc

[RDCanecutter 26239]

2 hours ago, crash_davis said:

i thought Polish airspace was closed off to Russian flights.

hmmmmmmmm.

https://www.flightradar24.com/VDA5968/2b026e38

Quietly meeting to swap tobacco for coffee.

[Nicole44 22023]

Why can’t we hire a computer programmer to use that money trick from Superman 3/Office space to take money from all things Russia and have that land directly in an account for Ukraine?  Then they can buy planes! With Russia’s money! 

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3867]

1 hour ago, ShaggyBevo RIP said:

This gets to;

-Is the convoy actually the mother of all trojan horses? It's been there for nearly two days without being attacked.

-Out of fuel?

-Parking supplies out in the countryside until the troops that were supposed to be there are actually there?

-Some commander firing up the Benny Hill sound track trying to get his troops to the option of surrender? Likely a death sentence for him.

- plain old hubris combined with a side of incompetence?

 

From another's posters question-

I forgot bait to be destroyed, by Russia if that's what it takes, to rally Russian citizens to war world. 

Edited March 3, 2022 by ShaggyBevo RIP

[956 Worldwide 34314]

6 minutes ago, Pescado_Rojo said:

From what I've read, only about half are combat ready, and all have NATO COMMS and have to be converted back to Eastern Bloc comms and nav gear. 

This is accurate.  

[NoName 16271]

10 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Doesn’t the US have attack drones?  Sell them to Ukraine and let’s fly them from over here.  No way to prove who is controlling them, right?

Claim Ukraine bought and is flying them.  

pretty sure if they start flying Reapers, it's going to be obvious to anyone and everyone who is flying them (AKA not the Ukrainian AF)

[Gravy Train 974]

1 hour ago, SimonBolivar said:

I bet. Outside of Zelensky, this war has probably gone better for TB2s than anything else.

 

The TB2 has its own theme song now:

 

[synoptic 138]

There is a limit to what is tolerated in terms of weapons lending in modern proxy wars.  For example, suppose we lent Ukraine a single ICBM with nuclear warheads.  Russia would know it came from us and would not care if it were the Ukrainians that entered the launch codes.  We would be in a nuclear war.  Likewise, if US and NATO aircraft start shooting down Russian aircraft and taking out their convoys with F-22s and F-35s, the nationality of the pilots simply won't matter.  We would be directly in the war as far as Russia is concerned.  They wouldn't be pondering the technicalities and perplexed by loopholes with this type of weaponry involved.    

[crash_davis 23078]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-businessman-put-1-million-053413403.html

 

[Constant 6718]

9 minutes ago, BabaYaga said:

Maybe?  Possibly?  But most are now or have recently been upgrading to more western platforms.  Croatia just bought a bunch of French planes.  Poland has MIGs, but have tried to upgrade with F-16's....and so on.  So hard to say 

Yeah those were just my best guesses. I’m not super versed on the topic. 

[crash_davis 23078]

Finland to NATO. Its a real possibility.

https://www.tv4play.se/program/nyheterna/uppgifter-finska-socialdemokraterna-överens-om-nato/13751530

 The Finnish Social Democrats agree on NATO

The Finnish Social Democrats have agreed on NATO membership, according to the Finnish newspaper Iltalehti. Tomas Ries, associate professor at the Swedish National Defense College, calls the data an "earthquake in Finland's security policy".

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

2 minutes ago, synoptic said:

 For example, suppose we lent Ukraine a single ICBM with nuclear warheads.  Russia would know it came from us  

What if we scratched the serial number off?

[Doc Reeves 6434]

1 minute ago, synoptic said:

There is a limit to what is tolerated in terms of weapons lending in modern proxy wars.  For example, suppose we lent Ukraine a single ICBM with nuclear warheads.  Russia would know it came from us and would not care if it were the Ukrainians that entered the launch codes.  We would be in a nuclear war.  Likewise, if US and NATO aircraft start shooting down Russian aircraft and taking out their convoys with F-22s and F-35s, the nationality of the pilots simply won't matter.  We would be directly in the war as far as Russia is concerned.  They wouldn't be pondering the technicalities and perplexed by loopholes with this type of weaponry involved.    

 

 

Riiiiiight. 

So… your saying “Mexico” should give Ukraine an ICBM. Got it.

 

[crash_davis 23078]

 

[RDCanecutter 26239]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Here's my question....if it was there to be captured, why torch it?  Ukraine uses the same weapons systems, so they can use these.  They should.  But then, maybe they don't have the manpower to do so?  I dunno.  I just think that if Ukraine has 100 AA systems, it would be even better if they had 120 AA systems.

Might not be running, and maybe Russian troops are nearby who could counterattack and take them back? My wild guess.

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

Just now, crash_davis said:

Finland to NATO. Its a real possibility.

https://www.tv4play.se/program/nyheterna/uppgifter-finska-socialdemokraterna-överens-om-nato/13751530

 The Finnish Social Democrats agree on NATO

The Finnish Social Democrats have agreed on NATO membership, according to the Finnish newspaper Iltalehti. Tomas Ries, associate professor at the Swedish National Defense College, calls the data an "earthquake in Finland's security policy".

This is not the New World Order that was foretold...

Sweet.

[Doc Reeves 6434]

Just now, Cheeseweasel said:

What if we scratched the serial number off?

Thats a lot of work. What about we just buy it for them at a gun show and give it to them in the parking lot?