Русский корабль - иди нахуй

[956 Worldwide 34176]

13 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, in the Soviet era, they could at least offer the "socialist dream" of a communal society, as well as weapons and money.  But now that Russia offers nothing but despotism and kleptocracy, it's just weapons and money, and oil.

Vietnam, Cuba, and African countries were and are I think susceptible to Soviet and Chinese "influence," because they "like(d)," or could sell to the populace, the idea of a socialist/communist poltiical system, and that made them a "better deal."

As that Kotkin article argues, Russia has always thought of itself too highly in terms of being a world power.  It's now being shown that they have almost nothing to offer a satellite or vassal state.

It is a humbling and bewildering experience to visit the vast hinterland of the Soviet Asian empire and realize how the only exposure to small-l liberalism and Western thought came via first tsarists and later Bolsheviks.  We are not accustomed to thinking of the Soviet Union as a liberalizing and progressive force, but for the residents of what was Bokhara or Khiva or Samarkand it was.  They have a literate population, girls schools, and no polygamy to prove it. 
 

The Soviets got to play the real role of liberator and and modernized in Central Asia and that explains the markedly different attitudes Central Asians feel.  They never were in Central and Eastern Europe, which was almost always more advanced and enlightened and wealthy than Moscow.  They didn’t need Soviet engineers or teachers or anything else. 

[JerrysJheriCurl 977]

18 minutes ago, immamac said:

It's really not dude, the leaders who have come into power just have different ideals ideologically and we align with the "good guys" more than not. The winners also get to write/dictate history. It feels good to be the good guy. 

If we pulled a Russia in Iraq how are we any different? We massively succeeded followed by a really stupid and extended insurgency - we staged a false flag, spied on them did everything wrong there and somehow we are just gonna pretend that we are somehow "different" than Russia? The entire global community condemned us for it and we did it anyway (with a few allies). The only difference is the results. Russia lost (there is no winning from where they are) and history will not be kind to them. We won and history is neutral at best to us. 

I'm not defending Saddam and his shit ass regime who was committing all kinds of atrocities and destabilizing the region, but the parallels are there. We of course did far less intentional killing of civilians and their infra, but it sure as fuck happened.

Stop glorifying this shit or putting it on some weird fascination with national identity. We are all humans and the animalistic side of humans crave war, its up to the cognitive humans to prevent it. 

When I read this I was like 

Then I read this 

12 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I think you were telling everyone on this very thread that the invasion wasn’t gonna happen and U.S. intelligence was lying until the day it kicked off, so sorry for not buying any “America and Russia are same-same” trash even if Iraq was a stain on our conscience.  You’re also not someone I need to hear from on Russia and how Russian politics and society works

And I was like

[Skipper 5998]

Anyone seen any good breakdowns on the Biden/Xi call yet?  I've seen reporting it was almost 2 hours but not much regarding the content yet.  I'm guessing both sides will release some "summary" that paints the picture they want painted.

[AUS-97HORN 11575]

52 minutes ago, ShaggyBevo RIP said:

Nestle hasn't pulled out of the Russian market. Here are the products to boycott-

 

So you just want to blanket declare a jihad on all these companies? 

there has to be SOME trade with Russia when this shit is all over otherwise we risk the chance of creating a zombie country like N Korea, but one that  is 100X larger, has the resources, and the will to royally fuck over the actual earth in an environmental way never seen before. 

 

I have zero fucking issue with baby food being made available to Russians.  Its just as much humanitarian aid as anything sent to Ukraine, and yeah, the Russians brought this whole shit on themselves, but just as I dont want there to be starving Ukrainian kids, I dont want there to be starving russian kids.

while the 3 water companies are all sparkling water varieties, thats still water, a basic human necessity. 

Now, all those pizza and hot pocket companies, sure, boycott them. 

 

[MoJames 8240]

2 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

So you just want to blanket declare a jihad on all these companies? 

I mean it was already covered a bit up thread, but most of us already are because they are shitty products.

[RPM 26146]

Well, Nestle used slave labor and fed the German Army during WW2 so this is kinda on brand for them.

[tx 3 putt 75844]

4 minutes ago, RPM said:

Well, Nestle used slave labor and fed the German Army during WW2 so this is kinda on brand for them.

They’ve stopped using some slave labor, is that progress ?

Edited March 18, 2022 by tx 3 putt

[atomheartbevo 89285]

59 minutes ago, immamac said:

Iraqi freedom is pretty fucking questionable after the first invasion and reeks of "to the victor go the spoils" but in reality we used the US military to make the private sector an untold amount of money while burning billions on occupation that was a complete failure post regime change. It's as close as we will ever get to what Russia is doing now and we were _successful_ even if Russia succeeds in Ukraine it will be a long terrible decision that will be a stain on their history forever. 

26 minutes ago, immamac said:

If we pulled a Russia in Iraq how are we any different? We massively succeeded followed by a really stupid and extended insurgency - we staged a false flag, spied on them did everything wrong there and somehow we are just gonna pretend that we are somehow "different" than Russia? The entire global community condemned us for it and we did it anyway (with a few allies). The only difference is the results. Russia lost (there is no winning from where they are) and history will not be kind to them. We won and history is neutral at best to us. 

I'm not defending Saddam and his shit ass regime who was committing all kinds of atrocities and destabilizing the region, but the parallels are there. We of course did far less intentional killing of civilians and their infra, but it sure as fuck happened.

It's ironic that with Iraq, Saddam Hussein was basically who Putin was trying to make Zelenskyy/Ukraine out to be.  Saddam did invade his neighbor in 1990, after fighting a long war with Iran that saw the use of chemical weapons, he did develop biological weapons, he was researching nukes, he did commit genocide against minorities in Iraq, including against minorities that wanted to break away and form their own sovereign nation, and so on.

And to keep adding to the irony, Syria has also pursued WMDs, has used chemical weapons against its own people, has seen Russia use chemical weapons against its own people, has a propped-up (by Russia) ruler who is ruthless against various ethnic/religious groups that are not in power, and has a minority that would love to break away and form their own sovereign nation.

We had shit reasons for going into Iraq in 2003, but at least Saddam was who we made him out to be, and that's a huge part of why Putin is failing miserably.

[Hefeweizen 5305]

1 minute ago, RPM said:

Well, Nestle used slave labor and fed the German Army during WW2 so this is kinda on brand for them.

Yeah they’re pretty fucking evil.  

[atomheartbevo 89285]

35 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Today Putin told Schultz that the Ukrainians are trying to delay peace negotiations and they keep coming up with unreasonable demands.  Translating this from Kremlin speak, that means Russians are delaying negotiations and cooking up unreasonable demands. 
 

https://iz.ru/1307121/2022-03-18/putin-zaiavil-sholtcu-o-popytkakh-ukrainy-zatianut-peregovory?fbclid=IwAR2nihINyWlQFprnq6gy43k9rDtPFR-SkavTAngZJbwzs-2zkC8cKpk1e0s

Makes total sense that the country that Putin says is losing would try and delay peace negotiations.

[GopherRock 1765]

26 minutes ago, rpspeed said:

Looks like Putin left his bunker.

LONDON, March 18 (Reuters) - Russian President Vladimir Putin justified the invasion of Ukraine before a packed soccer stadium on Friday but coverage of his speech on state television was unexpectedly interrupted by what the Kremlin said was a technical problem with a server.

https://www.reuters.com/world/putin-hails-russias-special-operation-ukraine-thousands-packed-stadium-2022-03-18/

 

[tx 3 putt 75844]

5 minutes ago, RPM said:

Well, Nestle used slave labor and fed the German Army during WW2 so this is kinda on brand for them.

They fed the US side too 

[TwiceHorn 30966]

11 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

 

So you just want to blanket declare a jihad on all these companies? 

there has to be SOME trade with Russia when this shit is all over otherwise we risk the chance of creating a zombie country like N Korea, but one that  is 100X larger, has the resources, and the will to royally fuck over the actual earth in an environmental way never seen before. 

 

I have zero fucking issue with baby food being made available to Russians.  Its just as much humanitarian aid as anything sent to Ukraine, and yeah, the Russians brought this whole shit on themselves, but just as I dont want there to be starving Ukrainian kids, I dont want there to be starving russian kids.

while the 3 water companies are all sparkling water varieties, thats still water, a basic human necessity. 

Now, all those pizza and hot pocket companies, sure, boycott them. 

 

Nestle is Swiss.  Probably another example of the Swiss using their neutrality to profit.

[Superhero 8688]

8 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

I have zero fucking issue with baby food being made available to Russians.  Its just as much humanitarian aid as anything sent to Ukraine, and yeah, the Russians brought this whole shit on themselves, but just as I dont want there to be starving Ukrainian kids, I dont want there to be starving russian kids.

while the 3 water companies are all sparkling water varieties, thats still water, a basic human necessity. 

Now, all those pizza and hot pocket companies, sure, boycott them. 

 

God forbid Russian parents make their own baby food (Baby Bullet holla) when Ukrainian kids are starving because fucking Russians have laid siege to their homes.

Same with the water. They can drink their tap water. Who in their fucking mind thinks sparkling water is a basic human necessity? Are you fucking serious?
 

 

[You don't know me 1161]

1 hour ago, SimonBolivar said:

I'd say its the opposite. To the US the war is a patriotic event that promoted our grandparents and Great grandparents to mythological status. Our current feeling towards Germany, Italy, Hungry, Japan, etc have a complete disconnect from the war. We would never put "On to Berlin" on our new equipment for a parade because it was an event for Zeros and Spitfires and not for Apaches and Javelins. We enjoy talking about it but it has no connection to the now like it seems to have in Russia.

 

It's cultural too. When you had the Romney vs Obama debate it seemed preposterous to average Americans when Romney was discussing the Russians because we had already "beaten" them just as we had the British, the Mexicans, the Confederates, Germans, and everyone else. This is a trend in our historical perspective that other and older states/cultures may not share. That's the American connection to history. Positivism and moving forward.

Fair enough.  I probably misread/misunderstood the original post.  We do have a long history of armed conflict and we do romanticize it to strong degree, which is how I understood the original post.

[RPM 26146]

3 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

They fed the US side too 

Oh, well, that makes things all better now, doesn't it?

[atomheartbevo 89285]

34 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, in the Soviet era, they could at least offer the "socialist dream" of a communal society, as well as weapons and money.  But now that Russia offers nothing but despotism and kleptocracy, it's just weapons and money, and oil.

Vietnam, Cuba, and African countries were and are I think susceptible to Soviet and Chinese "influence," because they "like(d)," or could sell to the populace, the idea of a socialist/communist poltiical system, and that made them a "better deal."

22 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

For a brief window of history, Russia at least had the nominal "thing to offer" of "we're the headquarters of the 'building a communist workers' paradise' movement."  Once that went away......they have nothing.

And lest we forget - while we lump Russia and China together, both had mindsets that were pushing different views or at least different foundations to their power - the Russians were about pulling from the workers (factory, etc.) for their power base, and pushing and maintaining communism with violent means (witness the Warsaw Pact) while China was about pulling from the peasants and building from the ground up and playing upon their plight to get revolutions, etc. going.

Khrushchev even recognized that the Chinese way was better for the long term - for all of the soundbites/etc., we remember him by, he really wanted Russia to spread its form of communism by making Russian society a success and raising its standard of living (at the cost of the military-industrial complex) so that countries would want to be like Russia, rather than Russia installing/propping up brutal dictators, and basically spreading communism through violence.

That's a part of the mindset that still carries over with Putin and it's partly what got us to Ukraine of 2022 - the idea that Putin can just take over another country and install a government to his liking, because he knows what's best, regardless of what that country's people actually want.  That mindset is a holdover from the Soviet days.

[TwiceHorn 30966]

10 minutes ago, RPM said:

Well, Nestle used slave labor and fed the German Army during WW2 so this is kinda on brand for them.

I suspect all chocolate companies, including good ol' Hershey, were guilty of use of child and slave or near-slave labor in the production of cacao.

And they did supply chocolate to the Nazis.  And Nescafe to American troops.

Very Swiss.

[tx 3 putt 75844]

Just now, RPM said:

Oh, well, that makes things all better now, doesn't it?

Only 1/2 

[SimonBolivar 10855]

2 minutes ago, You don't know me said:

We do have a long history of armed conflict and we do romanticize it to strong degree, which is how I understood the original post.

I find that putting yourself in the shoes of others is really complex. Yes we are humans that have similar tendencies and being a world power connects us in motivations in other ways over the last 80 years. However, our general outlook on life and our place in it has a huge gap from what I can tell, but I'll defer to others on Russia's feelings as my undergrad and grad school history career featured 0 classes on Russia.

[Dahobbs 17314]

21 minutes ago, immamac said:

It's really not dude, the leaders who have come into power just have different ideals ideologically and we align with the "good guys" more than not. The winners also get to write/dictate history. It feels good to be the good guy. 

If we pulled a Russia in Iraq how are we any different? We massively succeeded followed by a really stupid and extended insurgency - we staged a false flag, spied on them did everything wrong there and somehow we are just gonna pretend that we are somehow "different" than Russia? The entire global community condemned us for it and we did it anyway (with a few allies). The only difference is the results. Russia lost (there is no winning from where they are) and history will not be kind to them. We won and history is neutral at best to us. 

I'm not defending Saddam and his shit ass regime who was committing all kinds of atrocities and destabilizing the region, but the parallels are there. We of course did far less intentional killing of civilians and their infra, but it sure as fuck happened.

Stop glorifying this shit or putting it on some weird fascination with national identity. We are all humans and the animalistic side of humans crave war, its up to the cognitive humans to prevent it. 

I think you misunderstood his post as a white washing of our past rather than an explanation of how the Russian mindset is different. Our actions may have some parallels to Russia's in many respects. But, if you're going to understand this war or the Russian approach to it, then you need to understand how Russians think about this stuff. There is a significant psychological and cultural difference in their thinking. 

[956 Worldwide 34176]

2 minutes ago, SimonBolivar said:

I find that putting yourself in the shoes of others is really complex. Yes we are humans that have similar tendencies and being a world power connects us in motivations in other ways over the last 80 years. However, our general outlook on life and our place in it has a huge gap from what I can tell, but I'll defer to others on Russia's feelings as my undergrad and grad school history career featured 0 classes on Russia.

And I think a big part of it is the victimhood and martyrdom complex that’s lacking. And that flows from having actually WON the war— enemies surrendered to us, many of them became friends, and we became wealthy.  And to be fair— the Russian people and Belarusians and Ukrainians suffered tremendously in a way we did not. I recall lots of vets from when I was younger who had a real hatred for the Japanese, but the average citizen didn’t have war and death personally visit them and their home.  
 

The closest we can get is indeed sort of that post 9/11 intoxicant of righteous rage and victimhood that led to support for something like Iraq. But we also burned a lot of that off and self-corrected in a way Russia never did, and that’s in large part because Russia doesn’t allow a real debate about the war and has an enforced historiography. 

[atomheartbevo 89285]

45 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

As that Kotkin article argues, Russia has always thought of itself too highly in terms of being a world power.  It's now being shown that they have almost nothing to offer a satellite or vassal state.

There's another facet to this whole argument as well - Russia's military and its weapons/systems are coming off as extremely shitty/poor quality versus Western weapons/systems, and rightfully so.

Military hardware is not *that* much of Russia's exports as it's in the single-digit billions, but there is no way this war is doing it any favor.  I'd imagine that would make some of the oligarchs and Putin's accountants unhappy.

Another reason why Putin is unhappy with Western arms flowing in and making his systems looking bad.

And I'd imagine that a lot of countries are rethinking their future armor purchases after watching the war in Ukraine, when anti-tank missiles ranging between $35,000 - $150,000 per unit are easily taking out multi-million dollar tanks.  That's got to be making some countries nervous.

[MillerEP 30306]

 

[atomheartbevo 89285]

Kind of tying into some of the stuff @MillerEP posted in the tweets above this post

"More than 2500 corpses have been transported from Gomel region to Russia since the beginning of the war, tells a source to @svaboda. To be clear, we are talking about just one direction (out of 3), actually about part of that direction, only those whom they were able to pick up."

 

[atomheartbevo 89285]

Not good.

 

[Brisketexan 104181]

6 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I think you misunderstood his post as a white washing of our past rather than an explanation of how the Russian mindset is different. Our actions may have some parallels to Russia's in many respects. But, if you're going to understand this war or the Russian approach to it, then you need to understand how Russians think about this stuff. There is a significant psychological and cultural difference in their thinking. 

The bolded is an understatement.  Both of my kids have spent a significant amount of time studying, living, and traveling internationally.  Their friend groups are multi-national.  But one of two nationalities/cultures that we suggested they should never, ever, ever get into a serious romantic relationship is Russians.  Their way of being in the world is WAY more alien than you can imagine.  Fortunately, each of them has had real-world exposure to Russian peers, and they see it pretty clearly, and have not gravitated to Russians for close relationships.

It's not about any inherent biology or anything like that -- it's entirely cultural and psychological as a result of growing up in and of Russia and Russian culture.  It's not a healthy way of being in the world.

The other group is, of course, the Dutch (I kid).

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

24 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Nestle is Swiss.  Probably another example of the Swiss using their neutrality to profit.

Truly a Swiss miss.

[atomheartbevo 89285]

This is a huge reason why Russia will fail.   By failing so hard and so early in not taking Kyiv, they've given Ukraine way too long to prepare. 

Early on, Kyiv defenses were installing tank traps/obstacles, putting in concrete barriers to slow vehicles down in general, and now they are polishing their defenses and increasing the depth of them.

Which means Russia will need even more troops to try and take Kyiv than they would have a month ago.  Russia can't send tanks roaring down city streets because of the barriers/obstacles, but also because they will need infantry clearing out anti-tank teams.

 

[RDCanecutter 26157]

26 minutes ago, RPM said:

Well, Nestle used slave labor and fed the German Army during WW2 so this is kinda on brand for them.

I think of the modern Swiss less as neutrals, and more as cowardly Germans.

(Yes, I am aware that many speak French, Italian, or Romansch. I'm working here. I don't come down to where you work and nitpick how you cook fish in the microwave.)

"But ve are a schmall helpless country mit overvhelming greed!"

Go tell it to Belgium. They took time off from raping the Congo to shoot back. 

[SimonBolivar 10855]

Just now, atomheartbevo said:

This is a huge reason why Russia will fail.   By failing so hard and so early in not taking Kyiv, they've given Ukraine way too long to prepare. 

Early on, Kyiv defenses were installing tank traps/obstacles, putting in concrete barriers to slow vehicles down in general, and now they are polishing their defenses and increasing the depth of them.

Which means Russia will need even more troops to try and take Kyiv than they would have a month ago.  Russia can't send tanks roaring down city streets because of the barriers/obstacles, but also because they will need infantry clearing out anti-tank teams.

 

Another blunder was failing to encircle Kyiv. I'd imagine the number of weapons systems in Kyiv today makes Day 1 Kyiv look like nothing.

[XYZ 2154]

Somebody clarify this for me please. I thought that the petrodollar deal between USA and Saudi Arabia was “we protect you, and you sell petroleum ONLY in USD”. So now Saudi makes a deal with Russia to sell them petroleum for rubles. Wouldn’t USA have to respond to that and say fuck you, we are not arming you anymore?

[956 Worldwide 34176]

3 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

I think of the modern Swiss less as neutrals, and more as cowardly Germans.

(Yes, I am aware that many speak French, Italian, or Romansch. I'm working here. I don't come down to where you work and nitpick how you cook fish in the microwave.)

"But ve are a schmall helpless country mit overvhelming greed!"

Go tell it to Belgium. They took time off from raping the Congo to shoot back. 

The Swiss being neutral, historically, is not so much cowards asking to be left alone as it is the rest of Europe being painfully taught “do not touch.” 

Edited March 18, 2022 by 956 Worldwide

[You don't know me 1161]

1 hour ago, Cheeseweasel said:

[BachelorTrek 2908]

Man, I love Elephant Walks!  It's never a bad time for another one! 

[Nivek 16736]

Russia should have realized that they should treat their former satellites better, lest they run to a better opportunity. Of course it is advantageous to us for Ukraine to be EU/NATO. We offered a better deal. It was Russia's job to offer an even better one. They didn't. Same with North Korea. The Chinese offers the dictatorship what they want, so they stay under Chinese influence. It is a different story with Taiwan. The US offers the better deal. That's foreign policy in a nutshell. Convince other countries that they are better off dealing with you than the other superpowers. And what this whole ordeal has shown that Russia is a superpower in nuclear arsenal only. They are an economic, diplomatic, and militaristic midget. The world has seen it and even if Ukraine eventually falls, no one, absolutely no one, outside of dictators that we don't tolerate will think that they will get the better deal between Russia and the US.

Their philosophy seems more in line with kicking and abusing the dog to gain loyalty. It worked for them in the past.

[MillerEP 30306]

Near Trostyanets, Sumy region, our defense forces destroyed a column of enemy vehicles.
 Welcome to hell!

^lol Translation: "Second Army of the World", which was going to capture Kyiv in 2 days. 

25 separate airborne Sicheslav brigade reports: Enemy equipment destroyed along with personnel! 🔥

[dimyh 1874]

24 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Khrushchev even recognized that the Chinese way was better for the long term - for all of the soundbites/etc., we remember him by, he really wanted Russia to spread its form of communism by making Russian society a success and raising its standard of living (at the cost of the military-industrial complex) so that countries would want to be like Russia, rather than Russia installing/propping up brutal dictators, and basically spreading communism through violence.

That's a part of the mindset that still carries over with Putin and it's partly what got us to Ukraine of 2022 - the idea that Putin can just take over another country and install a government to his liking, because he knows what's best, regardless of what that country's people actually want.  That mindset is a holdover from the Soviet days.

Amen. That's the crux of the issue for my view of Russian expansion vs American expansion: people want to join NATO and are not forced to join NATO. Putin is still married to that old Soviet mindset of might makes right. If they weren't such assholes for such a long time then maybe those ex-Warsaw pact countries wouldn't be running to the west for support.

[Francisco 2.0 32289]

 

 

[Dahobbs 17314]

That Gostomel video. Damn. 

[InkaUtexas 25164]

 

[956 Worldwide 34176]

22 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

There's another facet to this whole argument as well - Russia's military and its weapons/systems are coming off as extremely shitty/poor quality versus Western weapons/systems, and rightfully so.

Military hardware is not *that* much of Russia's exports as it's in the single-digit billions, but there is no way this war is doing it any favor.  I'd imagine that would make some of the oligarchs and Putin's accountants unhappy.

Another reason why Putin is unhappy with Western arms flowing in and making his systems looking bad.

And I'd imagine that a lot of countries are rethinking their future armor purchases after watching the war in Ukraine, when anti-tank missiles ranging between $35,000 - $150,000 per unit are easily taking out multi-million dollar tanks.  That's got to be making some countries nervous.

The Russians’ bread and butter has always been countries that just need cheap/good enough weapons to fight with poorly armed internal enemies or a poorly armed neighbor that is also armed with Russian stuff.  And also to countries that are noxious enough AND on bad enough terms with the U.S. and the West that we won’t sell them guns.  Those clients are still going to be out there, although we will see what this does to the India market.  India is cagey about becoming overly reliant on one bloc, and China is out as a partner.  But they’ve also been burned by Russian shit quality before and will be feeling a combo of heat and honey from the West to look our way. 

Edited March 18, 2022 by 956 Worldwide

[InkaUtexas 25164]

 

[gernblansten 3171]

3 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

 

Most dangerous thing to arrive in Minsk since Rochelle made the trip from Milan.

[BabaYaga 15189]

No more quarters.....

 

[TwiceHorn 30966]

17 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Go tell it to Belgium. They took time off from raping the Congo to shoot back. 

But only like 10 shots.

[RDCanecutter 26157]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

But only like 10 shots.

Do you expect them to spend their Congolese gold on bullets?

[MoJames 8240]

Whoever this band playing is, I think we should clump them in with Nestle on both quality and that we should boycott them.

[BabaYaga 15189]

7 minutes ago, dimyh said:

Amen. That's the crux of the issue for my view of Russian expansion vs American expansion: people want to join NATO and are not forced to join NATO. Putin is still married to that old Soviet mindset of might makes right. If they weren't such assholes for such a long time then maybe those ex-Warsaw pact countries wouldn't be running to the west for support.

There are more trade and expansion/growth opportunities with western economies.  They have plenty of O&G options that also wrap in a myriad of other western options that the Russians can't match.

[956 Worldwide 34176]

11 minutes ago, dimyh said:

Amen. That's the crux of the issue for my view of Russian expansion vs American expansion: people want to join NATO and are not forced to join NATO. Putin is still married to that old Soviet mindset of might makes right. If they weren't such assholes for such a long time then maybe those ex-Warsaw pact countries wouldn't be running to the west for support.

For seventy years, no NATO member state has been attacked militarily by another state, whether inside or outside of NATO.  It’s a brilliant deal if you get the letter, of course countries want to join and don’t have to be prodded.