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[Bevo 13,955]

Spoiler

Ukraine Officially Asks for Iron Dome, Other Defense Systems; Israel Says No

Defense Minister Gantz says Israel won't arm Ukraine but will offer a warning system against aerial threats and continue to provide medical and humanitarian aid, as Ukrainian FM says 'it is time for Israel to openly side with Ukraine' against Iran's destructive action

Oct 19, 2022 11:53 am IDT

 

Israel's Defense Minister Benny Gantz said on Wednesday that Israel has no intention of providing Ukraine with weapons to help it in its war with Russia. Gantz did, however, add that Israel has offered Kiev help in developing a smart warning system against aerial threats. Gantz's comments on the heels of Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba's statement that his country will officially ask Israel for air defense systems.

 

Speaking in a meeting with EU ambassadors to Israel, Gantz said that "Israel is maintaining a policy of supporting Ukraine through humanitarian support and delivery of life-saving and defensive equipment." According to Gantz, "Israel will not transfer weapon systems to Ukraine for a variety of operational considerations.

As part of aiding Ukraine, Gantz continued, Israel asked Ukraine to send "data that would allow us to help construct and deliver a smart warning system like Israel gas against aerial and other threats."

 

On Tuesday, the Ukrainian Foreign Minister officially requested air defense systems from the Israeli Foreign Ministry. These systems include Iron Beam, Iron Dome, Barak-8, Patriot, David's Sling and the Arrow anti-ballistic missile.

 

Additionally, Kuleba requested that Israel train Ukrainian forces in using these systems. The request also stated that Russian use of Iranian drones and missiles in Ukraine "will make the Iranian systems better, which in turn will help the Iranians to be able to build an offensive weapon that would threaten Israel and the Middle East."

 

 

Gantz spoke about Iranian support of the Russian army in Ukraine, saying that Israel "is following the Iranian involvement in the war, and we can clearly see that they are providing Russia with offensive capabilities, including drones. Iran might also agree to provide more advanced weaponry in the future. There is no doubt that Iran will lie about their ability to develop a nuclear weapon just like they have in the past. Therefore, we must raise the level of intelligence and operational cooperation between countries."

 

 

Gantz added that Israel will "continue to follow the developments of the war in Ukraine, and their consequences on the region. We have not and will not allow our enemies to receive advanced weaponry, and we will continue to do this in a decisive manner. We are prepared for any scenario due to Iran and Russia becoming closer as a result of the crisis in Ukraine."

 

"If Israel's policy is really to consistently counter Iran's destructive actions, then it is time for Israel to openly side with Ukraine," Kuleba said on Tuesday. More than 70 people have been killed in the past week and a half by drone and missile attacks, according to Kiev.

 

 

On Thursday, Lapid is scheduled to meet with Kuleba to discuss Kyiv's requests for aid. Senior political officials have expressed over the past week that Israel will not change its position on the matter, and will not increase its defense aid to Ukraine.

 

 

Gantz's statements come ahead of his planned phone call with his Ukrainian counterpart Oleksii Reznikov in the coming days, and Russia's warnings to Jerusalem earlier this week not to sell weapons to Ukraine.

 

Israel has been trying to quell Russian suspicions that it is increasing its defense aid to Ukrainian forces. Former Russian President Dmitry Medvedev warned on Monday that supplying military equipment to Ukraine would "destroy the political relations between the two countries."

 

On the heels of the warning, Gantz cancelled a phone call that with Reznikov that had been scheduled for that day.

 

Medvedev, a close ally of Russian President Vladimir Putin, added in his Telegram post that Israel arming Kyiv "would be a very reckless step."

 

An Israeli official told Haaretz that they believe Medvedev's remarks came after Diaspora Minister Nachman Shai urged Israel to send military equipment to Ukraine on Sunday.

 

Shai twitted that "Iran is supplying ballistic missile to Russia. The doubts about where Israel should stand in this bloody conflict are over. There is no room to be self-righteous anymore. The time has come that we provide Ukraine with military aid as the U.S. and NATO do."

Reading between the lines. Israel is worried that Iran will be able to better evade Israeli defenses if it can get its hands on Israeli defensive weapons.

Russia still has buttons that it can push in Syria and Iran that can impact Israel directly.

Over 100,000 Israeli citizens live in Russia,with 80,000 Israelis living in Moscow,while hundreds of thousands of Russian citizens reside in Israel, from around 1.5 million native Russian-speaking Israelis.

Putin has been somewhat pro-Israel and has helped Israel in getting Lebanon to get Hezbollah to stop digging tunnels into Israel. And under Putin, Russia has limited the UN resolutions against Israel regarding the Palestinian issue.

The relatively peaceful relationship between Israel and Russia changed after the invasion of Ukraine and the start of Yair Lapid's tenure as Prime Minister of Israel.

Israel is fighting internally between an isolationist faction and a faction that wants to supply advanced weapons to a distant country that hasn't been a traditional ally. 

 

[Parliament 14,643]

42 minutes ago, Trey3216 said:

So some combination of The Book of Eli, The Postman, and Mad Max?? 

And The Road.

[Fico 1,806]

38 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Israel will pick a side if the other side says something offensive about Jews/Israel.

They’re just waiting to get their feelings hurt before committing resources.

 

 

[F250 29,231]

2 hours ago, Deej said:

Can someone in the US control the grenade dropping drones from their smart phone? Asking for a friend. 

[F250 29,231]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

Next time Israel asks for help or military weapons, they should be told to suck a fat dick. 

AIPAC reading this statement.

[Scheiss Meister 8,482]

4 hours ago, MillerEP said:

^Looks like that hurts

Wakey, wakey, eggs and baky!

One would think that Russian units would have watches set to look for drones while the unit slept, but one would be wrong.  It is a good thing that they are so stupid.

[Scheiss Meister 8,482]

4 hours ago, MillerEP said:

 

People after my own heart: Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice.  

[MillerEP 30,913]

 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

1 hour ago, Fico said:

 

Well that should have done it.

[Pods 7,639]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

AIPAC reading this statement.

Israel needs to get on board with democracy and decide which side they're on, or they need to 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Pods

[atomheartbevo 90,732]

Holy fucking shit.  Their lawmakers continue to openly support genocide on Russian state TV

 

[InkaUtexas 27,083]

The Serbs never took Sarajevo. Shit was real rough in that city. The Russians got their shit kicked in Grozny. People are resilient.

Fuck the Russians and their approach. Deport them in mass, create another revolution, and fuck em. 

[Gatorubet 30,836]

Fuck the Russians and their approach. Deport them in mass, create another revolution, and fuck em. 

If we all don’t die in a nuclear war, I want this to end with the destruction of most of the Russian military….and sanctions so crippling that most of Russia has to endure long breadlines, empty shelves, few if any luxury consumer goods, no ability to travel outside Russia or participate in global sports, high unemployment and an economy so weak that they can’t spend any money on military - mostly because much of the oil and gas money goes to Ukrainian reparation.

For. Fucking. Decades.

I want living in Russia to emulate the conditions of the 1940s Soviet Union - but without any military.

[pops 7,162]

We need to tell Isreal to wake the the fuck up. We've had their ass for 60 years. Join the club or fuck off. I honestly can't believe their position. Iron dome Ukraine ass or good luck without us. 

[Superhero 9,062]

17 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

If we all don’t die in a nuclear war, I want this to end with the destruction of most of the Russian military….and sanctions so crippling that most of Russia has to endure long breadlines, empty shelves, few if any luxury consumer goods, no ability to travel outside Russia or participate in global sports, high unemployment and an economy so weak that they can’t spend any money on military - mostly because much of the oil and gas money goes to Ukrainian reparation.

For. Fucking. Decades.

I want living in Russia to emulate the conditions of the 1940s Soviet Union - but without any military.

 

So exactly like North Korea but without the nukes.

[956 Worldwide 35,623]

Russia is likely weighing the surrender of Kherson city.  A reminder— Kherson was occupied, annexed, declared forever Russia.  This is extremely good evidence that we can force Russia out of other make-believe “forever Russia” redlines and Putin will not nuke shit.

 

[SL Xpress 7,617]

2 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

 

If we all don’t die in a nuclear war, I want this to end with the destruction of most of the Russian military….and sanctions so crippling that most of Russia has to endure long breadlines, empty shelves, few if any luxury consumer goods, no ability to travel outside Russia or participate in global sports, high unemployment and an economy so weak that they can’t spend any money on military - mostly because much of the oil and gas money goes to Ukrainian reparation.

For. Fucking. Decades.

I want living in Russia to emulate the conditions of the 1940s Soviet Union - but without any military.

 

Or conditions in the Weimar Republic. Because that worked out well. 

[956 Worldwide 35,623]

6 hours ago, Fico said:

I'm with you. My two best guesses are them not wanting to share their tech/capabilities and/or still wanting to play nice with Russia to manage issues in Syria.

A lot to unpack here but the key thing to understand is that Israeli is ruthlessly self-interested (they have to be) and should never be expected to burn bridges or seriously piss off any global power that could either help with or fuck with their security situation. 
 

I am sympathetic to their geopolitical reality but think they are wrong, it’s rank bullshit that they will run to us to fund protection from Iranian drones but won’t do shit to keep Iranian drones from killing Ukrainians. 

[SL Xpress 7,617]

6 hours ago, tokamak said:

So in summation:

Iran: #TeamRussia

Saudi Arabia: #TeamRussia

Israel: #TeamRussia

 

Seems like 70 years of fucking around in the Middle East has really paid off for us handsomely. 

 

If you're not consistent in your policies, you can't expect consistent behavior in return.

You can't expect consistent behavior in return in any case, because each country, each person, is going to do what is best for them anyway. So the objective is to make sure their cooperation in their best interest. Which the US most certainly has not done.

Iran - pulled support for the Shah because of human rights violations - which was true. Keeping a religious population who wanted Sharia law and a theocracy in power in check for a leader with no popular mandate, turns out it required a lot of brutal imprisonment and torture. There was never a doubt the US was supporting the bad guy here after assassinating the previously popularly elected leader. It so happens that when the US under the Carter administration pulled the rug out from under the Shah and supported the charismatic, exiled Khomeini to return to the country from France, he sealed the Shah's doom and we ended up with something worse. At least from our perspective. And the perspective of any Persian who isn't a religious zealot. It was known at the time they'd export Shia fundamentalism. And they have. Honestly the remarkable thing has been they haven't been more successful. Partly because the US has supported other bad guys 

Saudi Arabia - have openly campaigned for the severe reduction and even elimination of the widespread use of fossil fuels. Regardless of the reasons, this is an existential threat to Saudi Arabia. Thinking they're going to be happy about this is farcical. In addition, there is widespread pressure to quit supporting the leader of Saudi Arabia because he murders and chops up journalists for being critical of his murderous regime. Again, I would point to the Shah and Iran. Yes, he's a very terrible human being. However, if something replaces the Saudi royal family as the government for the country, the chances of it being supportive of the west are zero. Then Biden goes begging for his assistance after painting him as a horrible human being. Are we surprised they're not jumping all over themselves to help? And the recommended response is to cut them off. That's smart. Who needs Saudi Arabia anyway? Let's allow the Arabs to create another caliphate. What's the worst that can happen?

Saying Israel is #teamRussia is idiotic. Israel is #teamIsrael. They are never going to be team USA. Never. Their whole goal is to survive on a tiny sliver of land surrounded by people whose number one objective is to wipe the area clean of any Jewish presence whatsoever. There are a number of people in Israel who realize there's never going to be a two country system that leads to a permanent peace (it won't). There's a greater likelihood that countries currently unopposed to their existence end up opposing their existence in the future.

It almost happened with Egypt when Mubarak fell - another bad guy we supported until we pulled the rug out from under him in favor of an NGO supported democratic movement that predictably ended up being dominated by Muslims who want Sharia law. We're very fortunate in the west that was ended in a coup. Too bad we couldn't have gotten the same result for Erdogan. But the EU gave him an excuse to severely purge the Army because they cited Turkiye's many military coup's as a reason Turkiye could not receive an invitation. Another unintended consequence.

There are three main powers in the middle east vying for leadership of the Muslim world. Iran, Turkiye, and Saudi Arabia. You can lump the various prominent terrorist organizations in here, too, whether ISIS, Al Qaeda, or whomever. But those are the three national states with leaders at the head actively trying to extend their influence in various ways. Turkiye is the most western oriented, but Erdogan has taken all kinds of steps, especially since he became ruler for life, to make that less so. Punishing him for this isn't a realistic option because geographically Turkiye ranks right up there as one of the most important military locations in the world. 

It's not a black and white world. You aren't going to be able to give a country military and financial assistance and expect them to do you your bidding. It's not how it works. Especially if being seen in cahoots with the US diminishes their influence in the region in very important ways. Not to mention the US changes their mind on what's in the US's best interests depending on who is in power. 

IMO the most critical thing politically is to keep the middle east from forming another caliphate under a united leadership. Not that it seems even remotely feasible, but given that it's a fundamental part of their beliefs and their history, and it isn't that long ago historically - only a little over 100 years - since it existed, and there's a huge amount of popular support for its return in the region, it's a huge boon that the region is as fractured as it is. It's in the West's best interests to keep it that way. That's way more important, frankly, than whether they more strongly support Ukraine or not.  

[Schulz2.0 29,318]

 

[SL Xpress 7,617]

1 hour ago, Schulz2.0 said:

 

I hope they find who did it. That has to be a scary feeling for refugees and those who are trying to help them. I hope it's an isolated incidence. 

[DigglerontheHoof 21,568]

Israel can DIAFF, as far as I'm concerned.  They see open genocide and do nothing.  Fuck 'em, I hope they get overrun by the Arab nations (won't happen but I can hope)

[KYHorn 17,693]

10 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Israel can DIAFF, as far as I'm concerned.  They see open genocide and do nothing.  Fuck 'em, I hope they get overrun by the Arab nations (won't happen but I can hope)

Why single out Israel? Do you feel the same about India and hope for their destruction? Moreover, do you see that you're hoping for a western-oriented democracy that is starting neutral to be overrun by countries that are even more supportive of the genocide to the extent that they're helping fund it and giving critical weapons to enable further genocidal behavior?

[DigglerontheHoof 21,568]

6 minutes ago, KYHorn said:

Why single out Israel? Do you feel the same about India and hope for their destruction? Moreover, do you see that you're hoping for a western-oriented democracy that is starting neutral to be overrun by countries that are even more supportive of the genocide to the extent that they're helping fund it and giving critical weapons to enable further genocidal behavior?

Perhaps I overdid it w/ a bit of hyperbole but I'm inclined to let them FAFO.  India didn't lose 6 million people in a European genocide.  The U.S. hasn't propped up India's military to allow them to exist, while enemies were all around them and wanting to wipe them off the face of the earth.

Israel is a shitty ally.  Let'em make it on their own from now on.  I'm sick of their shit.

Edited October 20, 2022 by DigglerontheHoof

[Bevo 13,955]

10 hours ago, pops said:

I dont get the Israeli position here. Zelensky is a jew for fucks sake.

This comes across poorly. It is like someone saying Trump is a Christ guy for fucks sake. Biden should support him. There is a lot wrong with both the wording and the line of thinking.

[956 Worldwide 35,623]

1 hour ago, KYHorn said:

Why single out Israel? Do you feel the same about India and hope for their destruction? Moreover, do you see that you're hoping for a western-oriented democracy that is starting neutral to be overrun by countries that are even more supportive of the genocide to the extent that they're helping fund it and giving critical weapons to enable further genocidal behavior?

I would say that one difference is that Israel is a client state- of us.  It’s not just a nation that gets assistance.  U.S. security assistance and regional presence and diplomatic clout are quite literally what keeps Israel in existence as a functioning modern state in its neighborhood.  They’ve made some strides with neighbors thanks to common ground against Iran, but fundamentally, almost every other country on earth that maintains decent relations with Israel does so to garner goodwill from us.

And it’s a unique client state in that it enjoys most of these things as a one way street. It is good to have a democracy in the region, but we do not have key security interests at stake in Israel’s vicinity and in fact carrying Israeli water makes life more difficult rather than less.  The relationship exists because most Americans believe it is the right thing to do and no other reason. I, personally, am in favor of ensuring the existence of Israel as a nation and democratic state. 
 

But it does give them an astonishing amount of latitude. All client states seek maximum flexibility but very few enjoy the ability to completely flout the legitimate security interests of their patron, much less when the issue at hand involves weapons that are designed to be used against the client state. 

[statsman 5,712]

Israel is supporting Ukraine, just not with weapons systems. I understand them not wanting to share the “Iron Dome”. They rely on it for their defense, because they have been having missiles (mainly originating from Iran) fired at them for decades. I’m sure they have a lot of key technology in them that they are not willing to share willy nilly. not for business reasons, but to preserve their own security, which is under constant attack. 
 

https://www.reuters.com/world/israel-edges-toward-air-defence-assistance-ukraine-2022-10-19/

[Bateshorn 9,993]

I would describe Israel as democratic-ish.  
 

The Israelis have a lot of complex issues that don’t all align: a proxy war with Iran, a hot war on their border in Syrah, the whole Palestinian thing, a dysfunctional political system.  And the last has a direct connection to the Ukrainian war in that ensuring the ability of Russian Jews to immigrate is important both philosophically and politically, as they tend to be pretty conservative in their politics. 

[RockyMountainHighHorn 929]

10 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Man….they could sell the opportunity for $100 a minute, and make enough to restart their whole economy.

Anyone interested in a business venture…I know some great coders in Croatia that I’m sure would love to help. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by RockyMountainHighHorn

[bernorange 8,387]

 

3 hours ago, SL Xpress said:

Saudi Arabia - ...

You neglected to mention that we spurned their requests to wage war against Iran and Syria.  They were banging that drum loudly when Obama took office.  We didn't dance on their strings and the relationship cooled.  They even threatened to pull support for the petrodollar.

[atomheartbevo 90,732]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

But it does give them an astonishing amount of latitude. All client states seek maximum flexibility but very few enjoy the ability to completely flout the  legitimate security interests of their patron, much less when the issue at hand involves weapons that are designed to be used against the client state. 

And because of how arms transfers work, they’ve prevented some countries from transferring Israeli-made equipment that’s in their arsenal.

And we have  situation where Russia was known to actively pressure Israel not to supply Ukraine with armaments that Ukraine wished to purchase, while still providing regional players (such as Azerbaijan) with weapons.  That meant that after Russia invaded in 2014, Israel would not sell to Ukraine.

Quote

When Ukraine similarly attempted to acquire Israeli-made UAVs in 2014, Russian pressure on the Israeli government forced Aeronautics to cancel the deal. Just years before, in 2009, Israel's IAI supplied Russia with a number of Searcher II reconnaissance UAVs and granted a license for their assembly and eventual production under the designation of Forpost. The Russian Air Force has since converted a number of these to armed drones and deployed them during the invasion of Ukraine. 

Quote

For Ukraine, the inability to procure Israeli drones while at the same time being on the receiving end of munitions dropped by Israeli-designed drones must be an infuriating state of affairs.

This is one of those times that they want to have their cake and eat it too.

[atomheartbevo 90,732]

Germany training thousands of Ukrainians, meanwhile Russia gives their trainees just enough time to buy their own body armor and clothing at jacked up prices (probably from their own commanding officers), before sending them off to die.

 

[DigglerontheHoof 21,568]

5 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Germany training thousands of Ukrainians, meanwhile Russia gives their trainees just enough time to buy their own body armor and clothing at jacked up prices (probably from their own commanding officers), before sending them off to die.

 

I wonder what number of Russian conscripts...or whatever they're calling them...equal 15K NATO trained Ukes, as far as being effective, well equipped battlefield additions?

[The Dog 44,927]

Great thread.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It is good to have a democracy in the region

Show your work

[atomheartbevo 90,732]

 

[atomheartbevo 90,732]

Very interesting

 

[atomheartbevo 90,732]

What if letting all those young men leave Russia was by design, meaning that the potential troublemakers left Russia and those who remained would be obedient to Putin?

Whole thread  is worth a read, as is the article linked above

 

[Bevo 13,955]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I would say that one difference is that Israel is a client state- of us.  It’s not just a nation that gets assistance.  U.S. security assistance and regional presence and diplomatic clout are quite literally what keeps Israel in existence as a functioning modern state in its neighborhood.  They’ve made some strides with neighbors thanks to common ground against Iran, but fundamentally, almost every other country on earth that maintains decent relations with Israel does so to garner goodwill from us.

And it’s a unique client state in that it enjoys most of these things as a one way street. It is good to have a democracy in the region, but we do not have key security interests at stake in Israel’s vicinity and in fact carrying Israeli water makes life more difficult rather than less.  The relationship exists because most Americans believe it is the right thing to do and no other reason. I, personally, am in favor of ensuring the existence of Israel as a nation and democratic state. 
 

But it does give them an astonishing amount of latitude. All client states seek maximum flexibility but very few enjoy the ability to completely flout the legitimate security interests of their patron, much less when the issue at hand involves weapons that are designed to be used against the client state. 

I agree with what you are saying. However, it is leaving out an important part of the equation. A country's foreign policy is always to serve its own interests. Read @SL Xpress comments on the previous page. Israel is not very strategically important other than it being a democracy in the middle east. OTOH, most of the remaining middle east has oil and natural gas. So, most of the world in general is going to cozy up to the oil producing countries in order to maintain peace and prosperity at home. This means that on all things UN related, Israel is always going to be on the losing end as long as the middle east considers Israel an intruder. Anything that Israel can do to keep in good standing is strategically important. Putin's Russia has been somewhat supportive of Israel and the US has put some pressures on Israel as of late. Israel realizes that it can't put all of its eggs in the US basket and the more widespread support it can get the better off it is. So, Israel can't be just a US proxy. It has to look out for its own interests as well.

And that is looking solely at things geopolitically. Remember also that there are many jewish people in Russia who could get caught in the crossfire of a rift between Israel and Russia. And while Israel supports Ukraine, pissing of Russia could cause repercussions to the jewish population of Russia. Russia can also stir up problems for Israel locally through Iran and Syria and Lebanon.

Finally, the US isn't sending its top of the line military equipment. It is sending older, surplus stuff. Israel has no interest in sending its most sophisticated anti-drone and missile technology. Doing so would be foolhardy.

[atomheartbevo 90,732]

 

https://news.sky.com/story/russian-jet-released-missile-near-raf-aircraft-during-patrol-over-black-sea-12725414
 

Quote

In a statement updating MPs on the war in Ukraine, Ben Wallace said the incident happened on 29 September and that Russia has acknowledged it took place in international airspace.

The RAF RC-135 aircraft was on routine patrol over the Black Sea when it was "shadowed" by two Russian armed SU-27 fighter jets.

Quote

Mr Wallace said that while it is not unusual for aircraft to be shadowed in this way, "during that interaction however, it transpired that one of the SU-27 aircraft released a missile in the vicinity of the RAF Rivet Joint beyond visual range".

Quote

The Commons heard Russia blamed the Black Sea incident on a "technical malfunction" of the SU-27 jet.

The British defence secretary said: "Our analysis would concur it was a malfunction."

"The total time of the interaction between the Russian aircraft and the Rivet Joint was approximately 90 minutes," he said. "The patrol completed and the aircraft returned to base."

Patrol aircraft are now escorted by NATO fighters.

[atomheartbevo 90,732]

 

[956 Worldwide 35,623]

31 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Show your work

Not really for this thread but Israel is what the democracy index says it is: a flawed democracy. The only other eastern med country that holds close to that status is Lebanon, which is a mess because of Civil War.

Israel has an elected government, genuine political competition, and a marketplace of ideas. Opposing political parties routinely take the reins of a government in civilian hands. It is flawed in that many of the inhabitants of its territories are excluded from contesting and influencing political power, as things were in the U.S. under Jim Crow. Or the UK until suffrage. 
 

The key difference is that Israel theoretically could reform its existing system into a full as opposed to flawed democracy.  Its neighbors are authoritarian regimes and cannot reform their systems into democracy— they are explicitly anti-democratic. 
 

This is a tremendously important distinction even as Israel gets justifiably called out for its deep flaws. 

[MissingInAction 25,633]

52 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

I wonder what number of Russian conscripts...or whatever they're calling them...equal 15K NATO trained Ukes, as far as being effective, well equipped battlefield additions?

Lolwut

[Pescado_Rojo 19,596]

27 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

 

https://news.sky.com/story/russian-jet-released-missile-near-raf-aircraft-during-patrol-over-black-sea-12725414
 

Patrol aircraft are now escorted by NATO fighters.

I assume the phrasing "Released missile" is intentionally vague? Like released it and it failed to ignite and simply fell to earth? Fired the missile and the Rivet Joint successfully jammed it? 

[RPM 26,698]

1 hour ago, atomheartbevo said:

And because of how arms transfers work, they’ve prevented some countries from transferring Israeli-made equipment that’s in their arsenal.

And we have  situation where Russia was known to actively pressure Israel not to supply Ukraine with armaments that Ukraine wished to purchase, while still providing regional players (such as Azerbaijan) with weapons.  That meant that after Russia invaded in 2014, Israel would not sell to Ukraine.

This is one of those times that they want to have their cake and eat it too.

This is the man we need to get clandestine arms deals done. Even though he's dead, I know he'd love to fuck the Russians again.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12,301]

23 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Not really for this thread but Israel is what the democracy index says it is: a flawed democracy. The only other eastern med country that holds close to that status is Lebanon, which is a mess because of Civil War.

Israel has an elected government, genuine political competition, and a marketplace of ideas. Opposing political parties routinely take the reins of a government in civilian hands. It is flawed in that many of the inhabitants of its territories are excluded from contesting and influencing political power, as things were in the U.S. under Jim Crow. Or the UK until suffrage. 
 

The key difference is that Israel theoretically could reform its existing system into a full as opposed to flawed democracy.  Its neighbors are authoritarian regimes and cannot reform their systems into democracy— they are explicitly anti-democratic. 
 

This is a tremendously important distinction even as Israel gets justifiably called out for its deep flaws. 

Right, but why is having that system of government in that region a good thing?

[Ghost of LL 15,738]

6 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Russia is likely weighing the surrender of Kherson city.  A reminder— Kherson was occupied, annexed, declared forever Russia.  This is extremely good evidence that we can force Russia out of other make-believe “forever Russia” redlines and Putin will not nuke shit.

 

I'm old enough to remember when Putin declared that kicking Russia off SWIFT would be an act of war.

It has become very clear that there are no red lines in Ukraine.  We can do whatever the fuck we want and not really risk a direct conflict with Russia.  And even if we joined the war directly, Russia's actions have made it clear that it would be limited to the Ukrainian theater, and would almost certainly not spill out into a wider conflict.

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I would say that one difference is that Israel is a client state- of us.  It’s not just a nation that gets assistance.  U.S. security assistance and regional presence and diplomatic clout are quite literally what keeps Israel in existence as a functioning modern state in its neighborhood.  They’ve made some strides with neighbors thanks to common ground against Iran, but fundamentally, almost every other country on earth that maintains decent relations with Israel does so to garner goodwill from us.

And it’s a unique client state in that it enjoys most of these things as a one way street. It is good to have a democracy in the region, but we do not have key security interests at stake in Israel’s vicinity and in fact carrying Israeli water makes life more difficult rather than less.  The relationship exists because most Americans believe it is the right thing to do and no other reason. I, personally, am in favor of ensuring the existence of Israel as a nation and democratic state. 
 

But it does give them an astonishing amount of latitude. All client states seek maximum flexibility but very few enjoy the ability to completely flout the legitimate security interests of their patron, much less when the issue at hand involves weapons that are designed to be used against the client state. 

It's apparent that we need a major rethink in our Middle East policy.  We have allies who share literally none of our values or interests (Saudi Arabia and Pakistan).  We have enemies (Iran) who actively aided us when we were attacked by . . . checks notes . . . citizens of one of our allies who were funded by another ally.

And then we have another ally (Israel) that is an apartheid state that provides us no actually benefit as an ally, only costs.  To call it is "ally" at all is false.  It's an "ally" is exactly the same way the Soviet Union was an ally during World War II--it takes all of our aid provides little or no reciprocal assistance to us--except in the key difference that it refuses to fight our enemy in a world war. 

[statsman 5,712]

GOLL- “apartheid state”? Really? Who are the current residents of Israel without rights? (Don’t count the millions outside the border that claim to be residents)

[SL Xpress 7,617]

7 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Not really for this thread but Israel is what the democracy index says it is: a flawed democracy. The only other eastern med country that holds close to that status is Lebanon, which is a mess because of Civil War.

Israel has an elected government, genuine political competition, and a marketplace of ideas. Opposing political parties routinely take the reins of a government in civilian hands. It is flawed in that many of the inhabitants of its territories are excluded from contesting and influencing political power, as things were in the U.S. under Jim Crow. Or the UK until suffrage. 
 

The key difference is that Israel theoretically could reform its existing system into a full as opposed to flawed democracy.  Its neighbors are authoritarian regimes and cannot reform their systems into democracy— they are explicitly anti-democratic. 
 

This is a tremendously important distinction even as Israel gets justifiably called out for its deep flaws. 

To me the key is there is a peaceful transition of power on a routine basis. 

There is a huge distinction between states that have that versus states that don't. Even China used to have peaceful transitions of power every ten years, even as a totalitarian society (which is unprecedented in the history of the world as far as I know). It only lasted for 30 years, but that it existed for even that brief a period of time is remarkable. That doesn't happen anywhere else in the middle east. Frankly, it's difficult to find that happen anywhere in the Muslim world. When it does, like in Tunisia, it is short lived, as Saied is currently exhibiting. 

Any democracy can have a tyranny of the majority. It's pretty much a staple of democracies in practical terms, frankly. Israel at its heart exists to provide Jews with a homeland, more so than to be a representative democracy. Therefore they are going to do things to make sure Jewish people always retain the reins of power, and any representation by Palestinians or other Arabs is token at best.  

The fact they're still able to maintain peaceful transitions of power among political parties with differences, regardless of the extent of those differences, is an important - even critical - distinction to me. 

It's also what is threatening about Ukraine to Russia and its client states. Putin does not want to see peaceful transitions of power. He wants to see stable authoritarianism with aligned goals and values with Kremlin. He had that with Yanukovych, who was well on his way to transforming Ukraine into a police state prior to the 2014 Maidan Revolution. He would like to see the same thing happen in Hungary with Orban. It's certainly on that path. Turkiye is another one under Erdogan who Putin can relate to and support. 

I would argue Modi in India is unequivocally pursuing the same goal in India. 

I cannot emphasize how important I think supporting Ukraine in this war is. I know I'm pretty much preaching to the choir, but this is a classic case of good versus evil. It's a watershed event for the battle between countries seeking governments who maintain systems and processes that provide for the peaceful transition of power and those who do not. The idea that some people in the US would like to withdraw support for Ukraine at some point in the future, or see support as writing a blank check, concerns me more than any other issue in this country. I consider it a canary in a coal mine sort of narrative, with subtle indications that peaceful transitions of power in the US has lessened as a priority in different ways. 

[956 Worldwide 35,623]

9 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

Right, but why is having that system of government in that region a good thing?

I believe it is good everywhere when people are empowered within a system that fences off key civil liberties and are not oppressed. I realize that makes me terribly old-fashioned, parochial even. I think Israel should be more democratic, too, and that most of its problems are because it isn’t.