The Italy Thread

[G650 14302]

3 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

I'm a huge fan of the wines produced by the Nebbiolo grape.  Likewise with Sangiovese.

Lombardy next visit.

Nebbiolo is the best.

[sidis 9857]

i would say that for all the major cities besides milan, it is best to just avoid driving IN the city.  florence is not a place you want to try to navigate parking or driving either so biff, if you are planning on going from cinque terre and then driving throughout TUSCANY, then you are on the right track.  if you are planning to just go to FLORENCE for a few days, i would dump the car and just train from monterosso to florence because a car is just a huge hindrance in the city and florence is entirely manageable on foot.  you will want a car for exploring the north (dolomites) but once you head towards to cinque terre, you may want to consider dumping the car in milan and then training the rest of the way.

[Biff Tannen 45777]

22 minutes ago, sidis said:

1) italian drivers are criminally insane.

 

7 minutes ago, G650 said:

This should really be item 1-7.

[G650 14302]

I'd agree. I've never had issues driving in Milan. You couldn't pay me enough to drive in Rome.

[Biff Tannen 45777]

3 minutes ago, sidis said:

i would say that for all the major cities besides milan, it is best to just avoid driving IN the city.  florence is not a place you want to try to navigate parking or driving either so biff, if you are planning on going from cinque terre and then driving throughout TUSCANY, then you are on the right track.  if you are planning to just go to FLORENCE for a few days, i would dump the car and just train from monterosso to florence because a car is just a huge hindrance in the city and florence is entirely manageable on foot.  you will want a car for exploring the north (dolomites) but once you head towards to cinque terre, you may want to consider dumping the car in milan and then training the rest of the way.

Staying outside of both Florence and Siena in the countryside, so planning to train into the cities.  No car in Como or Cinque Terre (have parking set up in both).

[sidis 9857]

you may want to use your car for the lakes...though, i strongly recommend doing it like i did last time and just renting a motored boat for the days you are there.

[Jack Straw 2954]

On 3/28/2018 at 9:13 AM, sidis said:

penelope, i will weigh in with more later but having read your past posts on general travel, i would strongly recommend you get a reservation at la pergola in rome for dinner one night.

i'll be there in late september - just now starting to plan out meals and reservations - i'll take one for the team and go and report back.  looks awesome  

[sidis 9857]

5 minutes ago, Jack Straw said:

i'll be there in late september - just now starting to plan out meals and reservations - i'll take one for the team and go and report back.  looks awesome   

i am headed back to rome for work in late october and staying in cavalieri so will also be hitting it again.

you are in for a great night.

[G650 14302]

19 minutes ago, sidis said:

you may want to use your car for the lakes...though, i strongly recommend doing it like i did last time and just renting a motored boat for the days you are there.

Strongly concur

[Tylerocks 2557]

Going the first week of September...

Flying into Rome and driving to Camerata (staying at a family friend's farmhouse).  Staying there and chilling for a couple days.  

Heading to Orvieto for lunch and taking the train to Florence.

Any can't miss things in/around Florence?

Day trip to Cinque Terre worth it?

[VABuckeye 2472]

I'm told if there's one dish in Florence you have to eat it's the butter chicken at Trattoria Sostanza.  We're having lunch there September 19th.  It's said to be the best chicken dish in the world.  My wife has had it and insists that I go with there her this trip.

Edited July 30, 2018 by VABuckeye

[sidis 9857]

8 minutes ago, VABuckeye said:

I'm told if there's one dish in Florence you have to eat it's the butter chicken at Trattoria Sostanza.  We're having lunch there September 19th.  It's said to be the best chicken dish in the world.  My wife has had it and insists that I go with there her this trip. 

are you not the guy that was asking about how to make that at home on the old site that i posted some input on?

and it is pretty damned good, yes.  definitely worth going but just so you know, it is a tiny place and packed in.

[G650 14302]

It's easy to make at home.

[VABuckeye 2472]

3 hours ago, sidis said:

are you not the guy that was asking about how to make that at home on the old site that i posted some input on?

and it is pretty damned good, yes.  definitely worth going but just so you know, it is a tiny place and packed in.

I’ve made it twice at home. I posted it in the old cooking thread. 

We have reservations already for 12 

[Thetexashammer 1062]

7 hours ago, Tylerocks said:

Any can't miss things in/around Florence?

Nope, nothing. I'd skip it.

OK but seriously, two food recs.

1. Bisteca alla fiorentina

2. Sergio Pollini Lampredotto outside the Accademia

Bonus rec, but this is only for the super hip and extremely brave, have a Fernet Branca on the banks of the Arno.

[wild_turkey 3223]

you may want to use your car for the lakes...though, i strongly recommend doing it like i did last time and just renting a motored boat for the days you are there.

Tell me more about this. We are kicking around ideas for a 2019 trip and Lake Como is a possible stop. Do you rent a boat for your entire stay or just on a day-to-day basis?

[52-80 19282]

Driving behavior is geographic.  It really and truly is like a gradient, and the more south you give the progressively worse it gets.  Umbria is still fine.  "Bad" by the time you get into Lazio/Rome and down to Naples.

But it's not bad by global standards.  Pesky and annoying us the better adjective.  

[sidis 9857]

15 hours ago, wild_turkey said:

 

Tell me more about this. We are kicking around ideas for a 2019 trip and Lake Como is a possible stop. Do you rent a boat for your entire stay or just on a day-to-day basis?

you can do it either way.  first time i went, we just rented a boat for four hours...second time, for three days.  a lot of the guys that do it are small-timers without any type of website or anything but all the people at hotels, etc... around the lake know how to get a hold of them and order you up a boat.  there are also a few boat rental companies with online presences but they tend to cost a bit more and be a bit less friendly.

[wild_turkey 3223]

Interesting. How much boating experience did you have prior to doing this? I’ve driven small boats on Texas lakes and that’s it.

What’s a ballpark cost per day to reserve a boat from a local operator?

[texasdago 7594]

On 7/30/2018 at 11:21 AM, sidis said:

couple of things re: driving...

1) italian drivers are criminally insane.

2) embrace roundabouts.

3) if you aren't an experienced standard driver, practice on hills here before you find yourself driving up the lake to bellagio on 583 (which is extremely hilly and seemingly about 3 feet wide with giant fucking buses constantly en route on it). 

4) the two giant parking garages in venice fucking suck.

5) good plan on cinque terre.  a lot of people not staying in monterosso don't realize they're screwed.

6) work into your budget anytime you are going to take the A highways.  they toll the fuck out of them.  we drove from como to venice with a stop in brusaporto and it was a substantial amount of money.

7) take a few turns that aren't in the plan...

Pansies.  I love driving in Italy... lots of fun and never boring unless you're stuck in traffic on the A14 going past Bologna which is likely.  

1) Italian drivers are aggressive but at least they're engaged since their driving standards.  If anything, learn to not be hesitant when driving and understand that sometimes lanes are "suggestions" and stop signs should be treated as yield signs.  The drivers that suck are Germans and Austrians who fly up on your ass on the autostrada.

2) truth.  Wish we had more here and that Americans took lessons on how to use them (I typically see people stop in the middle of a roundabout to let me in.  WTF)

3) Agreed although many standards come with hill holders.  

re: 6) I like them.  Smooth, well-maintained, have regular (nice) service stops along the way and its easy to pull over and pee in the emergency lanes.  

7) always

Also, for the lakes, we spend 3 weeks in Italy this summer.  One week was spent based in Riva del Garda on Lake Garda.  Strongly recommend it.  Near other very nice lakes, wineries, lots of hiking, excellent local food, grappa, etc. etc. etc.  

[Ghost of LL 15605]

On 7/28/2018 at 8:28 PM, trubbaman said:

My daughter is going to go to school in Florence, starting this October. I'll be visiting her for a couple of weeks around Thanksgiving because she'd like for me to cook what I can of a traditional Thanksgiving dinner for her.

Do any of you have any tips for her living there - the day to day stuff that she'll need to figure out, and tips for me when I visit her? All I know is it's great for leather goods, and since I'm less stylish than a rusty Yugo I'm going to be embarrassingly out of step over there. Thanks in advance.

Well, she's going to need a roommate, because Florence is terribly expensive.  Perhaps another exchange student would be good.  But she doesn't want to room with another American--that would be boring.  Why would you go to Florence just to room with an American?  But at the same time, it'd be nice to room with someone who speaks English.  So perhaps she should check into rooming with some gal from the UK.

While she's there, she'll want to make friends with plenty of Italians.  Italian guys are known for enjoying going out with English and American roommates, so she'll probably find a fair amount of entertainment.  Generally speaking, though, she should avoid becoming separated from her roommate.  And she should definitely avoid killing her English roommate--that will lead to some legal difficulties.

[VABuckeye 2472]

3 hours ago, texasdago said:

Pansies.  I love driving in Italy... lots of fun and never boring unless you're stuck in traffic on the A14 going past Bologna which is likely.  

1) Italian drivers are aggressive but at least they're engaged since their driving standards.  If anything, learn to not be hesitant when driving and understand that sometimes lanes are "suggestions" and stop signs should be treated as yield signs.  The drivers that suck are Germans and Austrians who fly up on your ass on the autostrada.

2) truth.  Wish we had more here and that Americans took lessons on how to use them (I typically see people stop in the middle of a roundabout to let me in.  WTF)

3) Agreed although many standards come with hill holders.  

re: 6) I like them.  Smooth, well-maintained, have regular (nice) service stops along the way and its easy to pull over and pee in the emergency lanes.  

7) always

Also, for the lakes, we spend 3 weeks in Italy this summer.  One week was spent based in Riva del Garda on Lake Garda.  Strongly recommend it.  Near other very nice lakes, wineries, lots of hiking, excellent local food, grappa, etc. etc. etc.  

Well, you’re a dago so...

[Biff Tannen 45777]

1 hour ago, VABuckeye said:

Well, you’re a dago so...

 

[sidis 9857]

On 7/31/2018 at 5:09 PM, wild_turkey said:

Interesting. How much boating experience did you have prior to doing this? I’ve driven small boats on Texas lakes and that’s it.

What’s a ballpark cost per day to reserve a boat from a local operator?

i am by no means a boating "expert" or a strong sailor.  the boats you rent there are motored lake boats and are incredibly easy to operate...they are akin to renting a pontoon on lake travis in terms of complication.  if you can turn a key, control a throttle, steer, switch gas tanks, fill up gas tanks, and tie up at docks...you are all set.  small boats on texas lakes is the exact same thing you will be doing here.  certainly nothing to fret about as long as you don't go too close to unfamiliar shores.  lake como is incredibly deep (part of why it is such a deep blue).

honestly, i don't remember on cost from the last time.  feel like it was ~€200-250 a day or so for 3 days.  the longer you do it, the less it is on a per-day basis obviously.  this isn't where we did it, but here is a link for a place in bellagio that does rentals by the hour...these places are a bit more expensive than the local guys that you can get set up with.  the guy i got mine from was a guy named meno who had a spot in ossuccio.

http://www.bellagiorentaboat.com/

Edited August 2, 2018 by sidis

[Guest]

23 hours ago, texasdago said:

Pansies.  I love driving in Italy... lots of fun and never boring unless you're stuck in traffic on the A14 going past Bologna which is likely.  

1) Italian drivers are aggressive but at least they're engaged since their driving standards.  If anything, learn to not be hesitant when driving and understand that sometimes lanes are "suggestions" and stop signs should be treated as yield signs.  The drivers that suck are Germans and Austrians who fly up on your ass on the autostrada.

2) truth.  Wish we had more here and that Americans took lessons on how to use them (I typically see people stop in the middle of a roundabout to let me in.  WTF)

3) Agreed although many standards come with hill holders.  

re: 6) I like them.  Smooth, well-maintained, have regular (nice) service stops along the way and its easy to pull over and pee in the emergency lanes.  

7) always

Also, for the lakes, we spend 3 weeks in Italy this summer.  One week was spent based in Riva del Garda on Lake Garda.  Strongly recommend it.  Near other very nice lakes, wineries, lots of hiking, excellent local food, grappa, etc. etc. etc.  

Several years ago I was driving through a few towns near the Apennines with an American coworker in a small rented fiat which had a no torque 500 cc engine.   Lots of hills, roundabouts, small towns with small streets and Italian drivers.  When you see your spot in the roundabout you embrace the spirit of carpe diem and people make room for you.  With the tiny no torque engine on the hills and the need to suddenly jump into action, sometimes you just got to rev that engine up a bit before letting off the clutch.  Anyway, my American coworker was not pleased with the driving and felt it to was too much acceleration and swerving and he let me know his thoughts on my uncivilized driving frequently.  The next Sunday morning I was pretty hungover and told him to drive a bit.  We came up on a town and the main roundabout was busy; the road we were on that led up to the roundabout had a steep incline.  He waited about 5 minutes for an open spot (with the line behind us building) and then... he killed the engine.  He repeated this process 4 times. It was a giant spectacle.  The line behind us was as far back as I could see; every car on the road was honking; shop owners were coming out to laugh and give us the "what the fuck are you doing" Italian hand gesture.  Eventually I told him to get out of the driver seat and I got us out of there.  I still occasionally ask him about my driving.  

Edited August 2, 2018 by Guest

[texasdago 7594]

The great thing about driving in Italy is you can be aggressive and really "drive" and its OK there.  You can let out your inner Formula 1 racer.  It's great!

 

And the views you get on the road are totally different... (taken a few weeks ago... *sniffle* )

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[VABuckeye 2472]

Don’t get me wrong. I enjoy driving in the countryside there. I just have no desire to drive in the cities.  Last time I got a ticket mailed to my house six months after my visit for driving the wrong way down a street in Florence.  This definitely did not happen so I ignored the ticket.  They also wanted any reply I wanted to make written in Italian which I wasn’t about to attempt to do. 

[texasdago 7594]

13 hours ago, VABuckeye said:

Don’t get me wrong. I enjoy driving in the countryside there. I just have no desire to drive in the cities.  Last time I got a ticket mailed to my house six months after my visit for driving the wrong way down a street in Florence.  This definitely did not happen so I ignored the ticket.  They also wanted any reply I wanted to make written in Italian which I wasn’t about to attempt to do. 

I would agree that it makes sense to minize in big cities... the key in most cities is to know where the ZTL is (Zona Traffico Limitato) which means only residents can drive.  Once you cross that line, even if just a few meters, you're going to get a ticket.  We drove all over Bologna recently and I kept my eyes peeled for the ZTL to avoid it but if you watch the signs, they'll often steer you around it (look for the blue arrows)

 

This past spring we went skiing in Courmayeur... forgot to pay for parking by the cable car and I got a ticket.  Of course, to pay for it, instead of allowing you to pay online, you had to go to the local post office, stand in line and submit your payment there.  PITA.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19246]

Since we already have an Italy thread, I thought I would ask about Sicily here.  The only things I know about Sicily are related to wine and the mafia.  There was this great article in Bloomberg that made me even more excited for a trip.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/photo-essays/2018-08-08/sicily-travel-guide-photos-where-to-stay-what-to-do-eat-see

[Loco 3754]

On 8/2/2018 at 3:34 PM, texasdago said:

The great thing about driving in Italy is you can be aggressive and really "drive" and its OK there.  You can let out your inner Formula 1 racer.  It's great!

 

Bad advice here....   read up on the traffic camera / speeding ticket system.   Drive like a formula 1 guy and you will have $1000s of dollars in fines mailed to you months later.  Yes the locals drive fast, they know where the cameras are!

 

Also for all the talk of aggressive drivers in Italy, I think it's all relative, as a S Florida guy, it just felt like home, but less insane/more talented drivers there.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Loco

[Loco 3754]

My .02

Stay out of the tourist areas, enjoy the country side and small hill towns.  If you have to do Rome or Florence, book a small group food / wine tour.   

Oh yeah...  fucking everything is stupid gorgeous

 

Pic does NOT do it justice & the whole place smelled like lavender & jasmine...  just insane

[Biff Tannen 45777]

I'm getting the tours and shit reserved now.  Got a private charter to see Cinque Terre from the water one day and have 4 wineries in Tuscany about to get scheduled.  Food tour around Parma.  Shit's starting to come together.  Leaving Sept 19.

[Loco 3754]

26 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

I'm getting the tours and shit reserved now.  Got a private charter to see Cinque Terre from the water one day and have 4 wineries in Tuscany about to get scheduled.  Food tour around Parma.  Shit's starting to come together.  Leaving Sept 19.

Just research the wineries, some I went to seemed to be harvesting both grapes and tourists...  Still great wine and food, just had the tourist trap vibe...  Best "tour" I had was informal and free... thought the kid showing us around was just an employee who spoke english, turns out it was the owner's grandson.

Other tip I learned from some locals.  Just about any bottle of wine you buy at the grocery store for 10euro is pretty fucking good.  Italians just won't put up with shitty wine.

 

-If you do go buy groceries, you need to weight and price all of your produce...  we damn near caused a riot (not really italians are great) by not pricing the produce we picked out for a big meal with friends.  The line went down the aisle and the cashier had to run around in the produce section looking stuff up and pricing it...  she didn't speak english and was too nice/unable  to tell us to fuck off.  The looks from the locals were a mix of amusement, disgust, and pity. "mi dispiace!"

Edited August 23, 2018 by Loco

[texasdago 7594]

3 hours ago, Loco said:

Bad advice here....   read up on the traffic camera / speeding ticket system.   Drive like a formula 1 guy and you will have $1000s of dollars in fines mailed to you months later.  Yes the locals drive fast, they know where the cameras are!

 

Also for all the talk of aggressive drivers in Italy, I think it's all relative, as a S Florida guy, it just felt like home, but less insane/more talented drivers there.

Not bad advice because 1) navigators will tell you where the cameras are 2) the cameras will tell you where the cameras are as some cities even post signs that one is coming up 3) the Tutor system on the highways is based on average speed between two points.  If you see that the Tutor has started, you chill on the speed until you get past the two points 4) talk to the locals and they will tell you that in many towns, the camera is not always in the Autovelox box.  They move it around from box to box at times.  Sometimes they do this to keep people guessing as to which camera is working and sometimes they do this to keep people from stealing cameras. 

Multiple driving trips to Italy... still waiting for the first fine to show up in the mailbox.

[texasdago 7594]

3 hours ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Since we already have an Italy thread, I thought I would ask about Sicily here.  The only things I know about Sicily are related to wine and the mafia.  There was this great article in Bloomberg that made me even more excited for a trip.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/photo-essays/2018-08-08/sicily-travel-guide-photos-where-to-stay-what-to-do-eat-see

Last time we went to Sicily we were in San Vito Lo Capo.  Spent our time in Trapani, Marsala, Favignana, Erice, Riserva dello Zingaro... plenty on the west side of the island (including Segesta, Castellamare del Golfo, Scopello, Palermo, Monreale, etc. without the tourists on the eastern side and with better prices.

Edited August 23, 2018 by texasdago

[G650 14302]

Trapani is one of the best places in Italy. Great regatta there. I'd recommend catching a boat over to Lenavzo as well, gorgeous. Water is so clear, looks like the boats are levitating. Clearest water I've found outside the Bahamas.

 

 

[Loco 3754]

9 minutes ago, texasdago said:

Not bad advice because 1) navigators will tell you where the cameras are 2) the cameras will tell you where the cameras are as some cities even post signs that one is coming up 3) the Tutor system on the highways is based on average speed between two points.  If you see that the Tutor has started, you chill on the speed until you get past the two points 4) talk to the locals and they will tell you that in many towns, the camera is not always in the Autovelox box.  They move it around from box to box at times.  Sometimes they do this to keep people guessing as to which camera is working and sometimes they do this to keep people from stealing cameras. 

Multiple driving trips to Italy... still waiting for the first fine to show up in the mailbox.

Yeah I understand all of that, however, if you just tell someone to drive like an F1 driver and don't give them the details, it's not awesome.   I drove carefully but am waiting for my ticket to come because leaving Florence at 4am I came down and overpass a little too quickly and FLASH...  busted.  If you are renting a car (almost certainly) the rental car company will charge a stiff fee just to pass your info along to the authorities...  so ticket +65euro.

My advice, the Autostrada is fast enough, driving in the country is good, but slow down and enjoy it....  small towns, slow the fuck down...  you want to kill someone on your vacation?

[Loco 3754]

Another reason to slow down....

gringos shooting vertical video...  I know, I know...   Also wtf?

[texasdago 7594]

Well of course I don't mean drive like an F1 driver all the time.  People are smart enough to figure it out.   Exhibit A: don't do it here

 

I would say that knowing where ZTL zones are is possibly more important...

https://www.italybeyondtheobvious.com/dont-mess-with-ztl-zones 

[VABuckeye 2472]

19 days until Italy.

For the other posters going in September.  Wine festivals on the weekend.  We'll be at the Montefioralle WIne Festival on September 22nd.  Check for festivals while you're there in September and October.  It's an opportunity to sample many local vineyards and place orders for shipment back to the states.

[Tonesky 1009]

14 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Food tour around Parma

Strongly recommend Acetaia di Giorgio in Modena, followed by lunch at Osteria da Ermes. 

[texasdago 7594]

If you're going to be near Parma, head down towards Modena and drive around Castelvetro di Modena and go drink lots of Lambrusco, eat local meats, crescentine, tigelle... 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19246]

May next year, Milan and Venice on tap.

[VABuckeye 2472]

You sure you want to do Milan?  Other than Naples it's the city that most resembles an industrial shithole to me.  JMO, of course.

I'd much rather do Siena which also makes for easy day trips to the Tuscan countryside.

[texasdago 7594]

You can also go somewhere a little more original and less overrun like Bergamo, Brescia or Cremona or, given your taste for food and wine, go to Franciacorta.  Total no-brainer.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19246]

You sure you want to do Milan?  Other than Naples it's the city that most resembles an industrial shithole to me.  JMO, of course.
I'd much rather do Siena which also makes for easy day trips to the Tuscan countryside.

I’ve always wanted to go Milan. Fashion is one of my interests, and Milan is very much a part of the Fashion Royalty with Paris, London, and New York.

Besides, Tuscany own trip, IMO.

[G650 14302]

I'm in the minority, but Milan is probably my favorite city in Italy. Industrious, bustling, fashionable. 

 

The mountains are the best of Italy for me, but as far as cities go, Milan is great 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19246]

I've been doing a lot of research (my mom might be coming with and has a day to decide), but both cities have a lot to offer. I'm excited.

[Biff Tannen 45777]

Got back today after 15 days.  Overall awesome trip.  Will try to remember to post details tomorrow, but have to sleep and try to get back on Texas time.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19246]

Got back today after 15 days.  Overall awesome trip.  Will try to remember to post details tomorrow, but have to sleep and try to get back on Texas time.

#SAD