2019 Baseball Hall of Fame Thread

[Beau Vine 54,498]

Here's Ryan Thib's ballot tracker: 

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!11134&ithint=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!ACeqm-knNxexBw8

 

Yeah, Bill Madden kicks off silly season for us:

Quote

Having just completed and mailed back my Hall of Fame ballot, I want to make one thing very clear: If Placido Polanco is not elected unanimously, it won’t be because of me.

Yes, that’s right. One of the first people I checked off was the player whose name probably drew the most immediate “what the hell?” sneers from critics questioning how the Baseball Writers Association could include him on the ballot. But let me tell you something. Placido Polanco is no joke, neither his presence on the Hall of Fame ballot nor a vote for him that anyone chooses to do.

 

If nothing else, consider it a vote for defense, for Polanco is the only player in history to hold the lifetime fielding percentage records at two different positions – second base (.993) and third base (.983). He also holds the lifetime records for most consecutive error-less games at second (186) and most consecutive chances (911) without an error. In addition, Poloanco is one of only two players in history to win Gold Glove awards at multiple positions and the only one to have won them both in the infield.

He was also no slouch as a hitter with a lifetime batting average of .297 with 2,142 hits and 1,009 runs. Who knew?

 

Now, full disclosure, I have always considered myself a very strict voter, who has never used up all ten spots allotted on the ballot. My first two criteria are quite simple.

(1) The “see” test. Did I look at a player through the years and say ‘I’m looking at a Hall-of-Famer’?

(2) The boldface test. Did this man dominate the game at his position? As in the “denotes led league” boldface on his Baseball Encyclopedia page (or Baseball Reference’s website).

In all the years I watched Polanco, I never thought to myself, ‘I’m looking at a Hall-of-Famer’ but I am voting for him this year because he does have some extraordinary defensive records and I’m hoping enough people will vote for him to keep him from falling under the necessary 5 percent to remain on the ballot.

Okay. So that’s my case for Placido Polanco. Now some observations on the rest of the ballot:

Staying on the subject of defense, I am a staunch supporter of Omar Vizquel, of whom I DID say ‘I’m looking at a Hall-of-Famer’ every time I saw him play. He was the greatest defensive shortstop I ever saw, better than Ozzie Smith, better than Luis Aparicio. He won 11 Gold Gloves including one at age 39. Boldface? Led AL shortstops in fielding percentage six times and is the all-time leader in fielding percentage for shortstops (.985). Plus, he was a very good offensive player. He hit .272 lifetime with 2,877 hits (43rd all time) 1,445 runs and 404 stolen bases to Ozzie’s .262/2,460/1,257/580 and Aparicio’s .262/2,677/1,335/506, and he led the American League in sacrifice hits four times. The analytics bunch all bad mouth Vizquel, finding all sorts of convoluted formulas to show why he doesn’t measure up as a Hall-of-Famer. Maybe if they’d actually seen him play, they’d think differently. Vizquel got 37 percent in his first time on the ballot last year and hopefully he’ll get a little more love this year and the years after. For what it’s worth, it took his Venezuelan idol, Aparicio, seven years on the ballot to be elected.

The same analytics mavens who disparage Vizquel love Scott Rolen, who got 10.2 percent in his first time on the ballot last year. I greatly admired Rolen as both a player and a person. He was an excellent third baseman and a credit to the game, but no way was he a Hall-of-Famer – not after only seven seasons of playing 140 or more games. It wasn’t Rolen’s fault he was constantly plagued by injuries, but in 17 seasons in the big leagues, there are no boldface numbers on his record. He never once led the league in anything.

On the other hand, there is Jeff Kent, who the analytics folk also hate. Kent is punished by them because he was barely average defensively at second base. But offensively he was the dominant second baseman of his era, with eight 100-RBI seasons, three 100-run seasons, four silver slugger awards, five All-Star nominations, 560 doubles (28th all time), 2,461 hits and a Most Valuable Player award in 2000. He is also still the holder of the all-time record of 351 homers for a second baseman, more than Rogers Hornsby, more than Joe Morgan. I don’t know how much more you have to do, but Kent got a paltry 14.5 percent last year and will probably keep falling.

Another guy whose record hasn’t yet gotten the support it should is Curt Schilling, although there’s no mystery to that. You could make the case that Schilling was one of the greatest postseason pitchers in history, but since his playing days he’s also managed to become one of the greatest jerks in history, between espousing his extremist political views and biting the hands that would feed him by calling the baseball writers, “some of the worst human beings I’ve ever known. They are scumbags.” That said, Schilling’s record is filled with boldface, twice leading the league in wins, innings and strikeouts, and four times in complete games. In the postseason, he was 11-2 with a 2.23 ERA in starts (5th all-time in wins). It’s why I vote for him every year (albeit holding my nose and dreading having to ever hear his Hall-of-Fame acceptance speech).

Finally, for the millions of Yankee fans who will undoubtedly express their outage all over talk radio and social media if Mariano Rivera doesn’t become the first player ever unanimously voted into the Hall of Fame (yes, I voted him!), do not despair, for I’m sure he will be one day be unanimously voted into Heaven.

 

 

[Beau Vine 54,498]

More silly season:

[Helobious 9,489]

How can he justify voting Sosa and Clemens but not Bonds? 

[Guest Lobo]

I'll give Polanco this...17 years in the Major Leagues.  Seventeen.  With nearly 8,000 PA's.  And the man never struck out more than 47 times in a season.  Granted he didn't slug much

But that's some Tony Gwynn/George Brett level shit right there.  There are a dozen players in MLB right now that strike out more than that in one month.  

Hard to believe Youkilis is already on the ballot.  I'm getting old.  Hope Omar gets in, he was better than Ozzie Smith /ducks

 

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

22 hours ago, Beau Vine said:

Here's Ryan Thib's ballot tracker: 

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!11134&ithint=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!ACeqm-knNxexBw8

 

Yeah, Bill Madden kicks off silly season for us:

 

 

Jesus. Polanco had a career wRC+ of 97 (league average = 100). He's right around 40 career WAR per FG and B-R. Good player, not remotely close to being a HOFer. 

And you have to love reading this:

The analytics bunch all bad mouth Vizquel, finding all sorts of convoluted formulas to show why he doesn’t measure up as a Hall-of-Famer. Maybe if they’d actually seen him play, they’d think differently. 

That darn "analytics bunch," hell-bent on objectivity rather than good-ole feel and the eyeball test. If you consider data, you must not have ever watched the game. (Vizquel had a career OBP of .336 and a SLG of .352 - I guess those are the "convoluted formulas" he's referring to?)

[Guest Lobo]

Ozzie Smith had the same OBP and slugged 30 points LOWER than Vizquel and the writers tripper over one another to write him in on the First Ballot.  He had a better glove, but only slightly better than Vizquel.  Ozzie only got in as early as he did because of the Eyeball Test, not in spite of it. 

Now, it's fan votes and coach selections as well as writer hype that gets you into an all-star game...but consider this Eyeball Test hoopla for Ozzie Smith, he was selected to the 1995 all-star game despite appearing in only 44 games that whole season and hitting a whopping .199.  But he did a backflip at the 7th inning stretch again, so they wrote him in. 

Ozzie deserved to be in, but not 92% of first-time ballots.  Vizquel should be in this year, no questions asked.  

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2,741]

Ankiel on the ballot? I’m a die hard Cards fan but that’s crazy talk.

[phdhorn 6,224]

Berk**
Halladay**
Helton**
Martinez**
Mussina
Roy O.**
Rivera**
Tejada
Sheffield
Vizquel

** = slam dunk, the others "well I guess I gotta vote for someone."

I know the 'Roid Kings will get in some day (long after I'm dead proally), along with Bettin' Pete, but hopefully not while I'm alive.

[Scraps 13,586]

Oswalt slam dunk....wut??

[Scraps 13,586]

If I picked 10 my ballot would be the following:

F the haters...let all the roid heads in 

1. Bonds

2. Clemens

3. Helton

4. Mariano

5. Edgar

6. Kent

7. Pettitte

8. Schilling

9. Sosa

10. Manny 

[phdhorn 6,224]

8 minutes ago, Scraps said:

Oswalt slam dunk....wut??

Yup.  Dam slunk.

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

10 hours ago, Lobo said:

Ozzie Smith had the same OBP and slugged 30 points LOWER than Vizquel and the writers tripper over one another to write him in on the First Ballot.  He had a better glove, but only slightly better than Vizquel.  Ozzie only got in as early as he did because of the Eyeball Test, not in spite of it. 

Now, it's fan votes and coach selections as well as writer hype that gets you into an all-star game...but consider this Eyeball Test hoopla for Ozzie Smith, he was selected to the 1995 all-star game despite appearing in only 44 games that whole season and hitting a whopping .199.  But he did a backflip at the 7th inning stretch again, so they wrote him in. 

Ozzie deserved to be in, but not 92% of first-time ballots.  Vizquel should be in this year, no questions asked.  

Ozzie benefited greatly from being aesthetically pleasing to watch, no doubt. But there are a few major differences between the two:

(1) Ozzie was the far better defender, at least by the defensive metrics - which are not precise, but the gap between the two players is very large, whether you go by the FG formula or the B-R formula (defensive WAR). 

(2) Ozzie added far more value as a base runner than Vizquel. 

(3) Vizquel was never really considered among the top 2/3 SS of his era. He happened to play at the same time as A-Rod, Jeter, Nomar, Larkin. Ozzie was considered the hands-down best SS in the NL (while Ripken held that distinction in the AL), even if Larkin surpassed him in Ozzie's twilight years. This isn't necessarily Vizquel's fault - Ozzie played most of his career in the small-ball era (which was his game), while Vizquel played his in the PED era, in which SSs were hitting 30 HR. 

They were similar players - nearly identical hitters, but Ozzie had a big edge in defense and baserunning value. I just can't find any metrics that indicate that Vizquel is a HOFer. And I watched him plenty. As for Ozzie...I agree that he was a bit overrated because of the back flips and what-not, but the numbers overall still justify his inclusion. 

Anyhow, my main point was not to diminish Vizquel, but to bemoan the voter's absurd notion that considering data = not watching the game, or that there is an agenda to conjure convoluted metrics to keep people out of the HOF. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by Hank Chinaski

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

12 minutes ago, phdhorn said:

Yup.  Dam slunk.

I love Berkman and Roy O, but neither are HOFers. They both had the talent but didn't do it for a long enough stretch to quite get there. 

I think if both had played even 2-3 more full seasons, they'd be right there. But they didn't.  

[Guest Lobo]

I've become a tacit Astros fan, just because I like their approach to baseball and the fans I've come to know since living in Texas love the game.  I've had a blast at their games over the years (probably attended a couple dozen).  And watching them win the Series was a great ride.  

Oswalt had 10 productive seasons.  Just ten.  That won't get you in the Hall of Fame unless your name is Koufax.  Sorry.  Hell, I think Berkman has a better shot than Roy O.

[Scraps 13,586]

Wagner should be in over Oswalt, and I don't even think he deserves it

Edited December 3, 2018 by Scraps

[Pato del Muerto 52,696]

Without looking at stats, I don’t feel that oswalt or berkman are hofers. 

And I’ve really mellowed over the last decade on who I think should get in. 

I’m now curious as to how pettitte and mussina compare to each other, because my gut tells me that if one gets in, the other  should too.  

[Beau Vine 54,498]

Doesn't mean he should get in, but there are guys with lesser careers in the HoF, such as Dizzy Dean, Catfish Hunter, Lefty Gomes, and Chief Bender.  

Roy obviously needed a more colorful name.  

[henrygandorf 29,198]

my opinion on the ozzie vs vizquel debate-

even though their careers technically overlapped, they basically played in different eras (and different leagues).  comparing the mid 80's in the nl to the mid 90's in the al (especially in the indians lineup) may as well be comparing 2 players who played 4 decades apart.  and as someone has mentioned, vizquel played at the same time 3-4 awesome ss were coming up and dominating in the al, which meant he was never "the" definitive guy at his position in his league, which is something the hof voters care about.  to that point, he was an all-star only 3x (15x for ozzie) and at least a couple times, he had his manager helping to pick the backups.

he was a defensive master, and may have been in already under different circumstances.  put him in a different decade, sure, why not.  but times change, and the voters aren't expected to just measure stats across decades, especially defensive stats.

he only had 1 top 25 mvp finish (6 for ozzie), which again, shows his measure against his counterparts and league at the time.  something they care about.

i'm not saying he should or shouldn't get in, but i understand why it's a hard sell, and why you can't just put him next to ozzie and use a goose/gander argument.  put simply, if you have to start digging around to prove whether someone is or isn't in, they're probably not a "hall-of-famer" to begin with.  it should be obvious.

[tx 3 putt 77,678]

i hated ozzie smith, still do

fuck him 

[Helobious 9,489]

On 12/3/2018 at 12:18 PM, Beau Vine said:

Doesn't mean he should get in, but there are guys with lesser careers in the HoF, such as Dizzy Dean, Catfish Hunter, Lefty Gomes, and Chief Bender.  

Roy obviously needed a more colorful name.  

That's Vernon "Lefty" Gomez, with a Z. Yan wishes he was related to such greatness. 

[TexArcher 38,204]

I love the Astros and I wouldn't put Roy O or Berkman in.  

[cafe society 2,879]

It's silly to limit BBWAA voters to a 10 player limit, I can make a case for 14, but here are my 10:

Bonds, Clemens, Halladay, Edgar, Crime Dog, Moose, Mariano, Rolen, Schilling, Walker.   I would also likely vote in Vizquel and Sheffield.  Kent's defensive prowess/metrics would need to be plumbed, and I think that Berkman may have a case.  Admittedly, I am a big hall guy.  

 

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

Berkman should have been brought up a season earlier and played two more.  He’d be in.  

[Beau Vine 54,498]

We have the 2nd-dumbest ballot submitted:

[Scraps 13,586]

 

 

 

We have the 2nd-dumbest ballot submitted:

 

I agree. He needs to sub more guys who played for the Stros for Mariano, walker, edgar and omar

 

[Pato del Muerto 52,696]

Didn’t tejada play for Houston briefly?  

[Scraps 13,586]

Yes and Pettitte, Ankiel, Oliver. Could even count Freddy Garcia if you wanted

[Beau Vine 54,498]

6 minutes ago, Scraps said:

Yes and Pettitte, Ankiel, Oliver. Could even count Freddy Garcia if you wanted

You forgot about Schilling.

[Scraps 13,586]

He had Schilling marked already

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

I really wish voters were required to provide a written explanation for their choices. Many do so anyway, but it should be a requirement. I'd be fascinated to read about the mental gymnastics these guys go through to end up with these selections. 

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

Man, Andruw Jones seemed like a certain HOFer for a while. He was around 65 WAR with nearly 400 HR through his age-30 season. Then he never played another full season, topping out at 331 PAs in 2009. He was a great, great player in his 20s. 

[cafe society 2,879]

4 hours ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Man, Andruw Jones seemed like a certain HOFer for a while. He was around 65 WAR with nearly 400 HR through his age-30 season. Then he never played another full season, topping out at 331 PAs in 2009. He was a great, great player in his 20s. 

Yep.  He was a joy to watch and seemed to be on the fast-track to the hall.

[runthebone 8,052]

I saw some analysis that was pretty convincing that taking offensive era into account, Smith was much better than Vizquel.

 

Anyway, Rivera really should be unanimous.  

[cafe society 2,879]

Ozzie was light-years better than Omar, who I actually believe to be borderline, but I am tired of listening to the bitching and if they let Rabbit Marinville and Jack Morris in, why not?

 

[patrickdrinksbeer 793]

harold baines. how the fuck did this new committee ever get approved?

[Beau Vine 54,498]

I loooooooooved Harold Baines when I was growing up.

There is no fucking way Harold Baines is a Hall of Famer.  

His high voting mark was 6.1%.  

He's now the worst Hall of Famer elected since the early 70's when Frankie Frisch and Bill Terry were putting their buddies in.  

I will no longer bitch about Jack Morris getting in the HoF, because as much as I loved Baines and as much as I thought Morris was horribly overrated, Jack Morris has a better Hall of Fame case than Harold Baines.  

Makes me wonder how voters who haven't submitted a ballot are going to consider Edgar Martinez now.  Or Fred McGriff.  Or...

 

Wow.

[spystud13 2,371]

Magglio Ordonez has the same career bWAR as Baines. 

[Beau Vine 54,498]

This seriously blows my mind.

I literally don't remember anyone writing a column advocating Harold Baines for the Hall of Fame.  

Yet he's now in the Hall of Fame.  

And now for the next 30 years, people are going to write columns advocating guys for the Hall of Fame by comparing them to Harold Baines.  

[Firemans4Horn 18,204]

1 hour ago, patrickdrinksbeer said:

harold baines. how the fuck did this new committee ever get approved?

Disaster. And what the fuck does Lou Whitaker have to do to make it in the hall?

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

Yeah, bizarre. Harold Baines? He's certainly not a HOFer by modern metrics. And he doesn't hit any of the traditional statistical thresholds. The highest he ever finished in MVP voting was 9th. 

I...yeah...what?

[CBT 1,287]

The BBWAA proves again they are a collective group of fucktards.

[spystud13 2,371]

You’re point isn’t wrong, but... 

 

 

[Scraps 13,586]

What a crock of shit.  

 

[pepper brooks 580]

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 4:01 PM, Helobious said:

How can he justify voting Sosa and Clemens but not Bonds? 

well probably because there is exactly zero proof Clemens ever PED, and I don't believe any proof on Sosa either (but I may be "mis-remembering" on sosa).  The real question is how you vote Pettitte and not Bonds.  Pettitte was not only a know PED user, but also caught lying about it when his dad announced on Houston radio that he had picked up the delivery of steroids for andy.  odd that he seemingly gets a pass.  

 

Tragic that Harold Baines got in.  Good lord.  it isn't the "hall of pretty good for really nice dudes who played a long time".  Crazy it took this long for Lee Smith.  That guy should have been in looooong ago.  I have no idea the rationale on some of these votes.  

[pepper brooks 580]

Berkman and Oswalt are not HOF players.  I do think Wagner is.  Guy was flat out dominate for a long period of time.  

[Beau Vine 54,498]

16 minutes ago, pepper brooks said:

well probably because there is exactly zero proof Clemens ever PED, and I don't believe any proof on Sosa either (but I may be "mis-remembering" on sosa). 

There's also zero proof Bonds used PEDs.

[Beau Vine 54,498]

9 hours ago, spystud13 said:

You’re point isn’t wrong, but... 

 

 

The breakdown of the committee was as follows:

Hall of Famers: Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Pat Gillick, Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Joe Morgan, John Schuerholz, Ozzie Smith, Joe Torre

Executives: Al Avila (Tigers), Paul Beeston (Blue Jays), Andy MacPhail (Phillies), Jerry Reinsdorf (White Sox)

Media: Steve Hirdt (Elias Sports Bureau), Tim Kurkjian (ESPN), Claire Smith (ESPN)

 

They probably elected him just to get Joe Morgan to shut up about all of his RBIs.

[pepper brooks 580]

34 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

There's also zero proof Bonds used PEDs.

not true.  there was proof in court he used steroids.  They couldn't prove that he knew he was getting steroids, but there was proof of steroid use.  

[henrygandorf 29,198]

2 hours ago, pepper brooks said:

Berkman and Oswalt are not HOF players.  I do think Wagner is.  Guy was flat out dominate for a long period of time.  

dominant.

i'll do this by myself if i have to.

[Hank Chinaski 6,324]

3 hours ago, pepper brooks said:

not true.  there was proof in court he used steroids.  They couldn't prove that he knew he was getting steroids, but there was proof of steroid use.  

Yeah, I don't see any justification for Barry Bonds not being elected. He could have retired before the '99 season (when he allegedly began using PEDs) and he was a HOFer. Then he apparently started using and became significantly better than all the other PED users. So deduct 20% of his value from those last few seasons if you want to and he's still an MVP-level player. 

I get wanting to discount his numbers for his 2001-2004 seasons, because they were nuts. But he's one of the 10-12 best players in history, regardless.