Cattle & Ranching

[Herbie Hancock 7393]

Getting ready to spray end of this week if the cooperates. Rezilon up to $344/quart from $269 last year. Glyphosate $99/2.5 gallon jug from $46. 33-0-0 down to $560/ton from a high of $980 at the end of July.  Still $230 more per to. than this time two years ago. 

[UT_OB1 2227]

35 minutes ago, Kennythetiger said:

All of them. 

 

34 minutes ago, Amos Moses said:

Lol. More than you can handle, probably.

We sold all our cows at the end of last year. Mixed emotions but the drought this year and crazy fertilizer prices took a heavy toll. Maybe we’ll get back in if stuff ever calms down or it rains again.

 

21 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

You wouldn't have enough land if it was 1,170 acres. 

Kind of the answers I was expecting but hoping someone would say well you can get close. 
 

I just mainly want the land but it’s too expensive and too far from work

Edited February 21, 2023 by UT_OB1

[Herbie Hancock 7393]

Sprig if for coastal and charge $190/roll to all these high maintenance barrel racers that think their horse can't exist on anything besides the finest caviar. That would be the biggest profit margin. Just don't stick your dick in one, they're crazier than a shithouse rat and then you'll be the sucker I sell $190 rolls of hay to.

[UT_OB1 2227]

15 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

Sprig if for coastal and charge $190/roll to all these high maintenance barrel racers that think their horse can't exist on anything besides the finest caviar. That would be the biggest profit margin. Just don't stick your dick in one, they're crazier than a shithouse rat and then you'll be the sucker I sell $190 rolls of hay to.

I’ve already got a wife, I don’t need anymore crazy in my life. 

[UT_OB1 2227]

35 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

Sprig if for coastal and charge $190/roll to all these high maintenance barrel racers that think their horse can't exist on anything besides the finest caviar. That would be the biggest profit margin. Just don't stick your dick in one, they're crazier than a shithouse rat and then you'll be the sucker I sell $190 rolls of hay to.

So how do you find these high maintenance barrel racers to sell to, or are there centralized feed stores that you sell the coastal rolls to for $190 and they sell to the racers?

[RMac5 1551]

You just gotta find one, she’ll tell the rest of the world.

[UT_OB1 2227]

@Herbie Hancock So i need some more info now that you've given me that much.  At $170 per bale that seems very doable, but if it were that easy everyone would be a hay farmer.  Math in my head says 4 bales/acre, 3 cuts per year (should I expect less? I've read some getting 6), and if I can only utilize 75 of the acres, I'm making $170k a year.  But I know it isn't that easy and there are costs.  What type of $/bale goes in to seed and fertilizer?  When it comes time to bale, how much do you end up paying someone to do that?  Or do you need $1mil in equipment to do it yourself?  You've got me about 2/3 of the way to deciding to quite my job and be a hay farmer, I just need a little more info.  

[Herbie Hancock 7393]

I was 100% being sarcastic. If you want to get into farming/ranching to get rich, go ahead and save yourself the years of headache and frustration and go down to Salvation Army and pay a bum whatever is in your savings account to kick you in the nuts REAL effin hard. Results will be similar.

ln a great year I make in the neighborhood of 500 or so round bales. At the end of the year I cover all of my expenses, with enough left to upgrade or buy a new implement or two and then cover my startup costs for the next year.
 

My grandmother makes a modest living off of her land, but she's on 2900 acres. She runs around 200 head, up from 150 five years ago but down from 600 in the late 90's. The typical rule of thumb is you need 3, preferably 5, acres of grass for every head you want to run unless you have a shit ton of hay to feed. Another rule of thumb is it's hard to feed a profit into a cow. Whatever money you're thinking about spending on this place, take it and buy a house in Cabo instead lol.

[hornmpa96 2632]

The only way any of this works economically is if your land is free or purchased many years ago.

[UT_OB1 2227]

Well. Those dreams are crushed. I’ll move on to something else 

[fattyflattie 4639]

20 hours ago, UT_OB1 said:

You've got me about 2/3 of the way to deciding to quite my job and be a hay farmer, I just need a little more info.  

Ah. I remember this point in my life.  Couple of drought years killed that shit right quick.  

[Herbie Hancock 7393]

23 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

Ah. I remember this point in my life.  Couple of drought years killed that shit right quick.  

Yep. Last year killed me. Between making 171 total for the entire year and then having to buy over 100 bales at $100 each for fuckin cows I'm gonna be lucky to break even this year. 

[Amos Moses 795]

It is a sad state of affairs for the cattle bidness. Drought, high fuel and fertilizer prices, low sales prices … really shitty all around. We kept a few dorpers but that’s it. Guess we’ll just watch the grass grow if it ever rains.

[GoPokes83 2242]

Question. I grew up on an Oklahoma ranch that went away after my grandfather passed and the land was divided between too many greedy dumbasses. Do any of you think there’s any way possible that someone without significant family land could afford to begin really farming or ranching from scratch these days? Not talking an internet billionaire or some 12 acre boutique overgrown pepper garden calling itself a farm, but just some kid with an ag degree that’s interested in a farm or ranch lifestyle? I honestly think those days are long gone.

[DalTxHornFan 3123]

2 minutes ago, GoPokes83 said:

Question. I grew up on an Oklahoma ranch that went away after my grandfather passed and the land was divided between too many greedy dumbasses. Do any of you think there’s any way possible that someone without significant family land could afford to begin really farming or ranching from scratch these days? Not talking an internet billionaire or some 12 acre boutique overgrown pepper garden calling itself a farm, but just some kid with an ag degree that’s interested in a farm or ranch lifestyle? I honestly think those days are long gone.

It ain't happening in Texas these days.  Recreational use (hunting) far outweighs any ag use in most of the state.  I am fortunate that our family owns some East Texas timberland that can be used for multiple purposes that can be profitable sometimes. 

[Kennythetiger 9500]

6 hours ago, GoPokes83 said:

Question. I grew up on an Oklahoma ranch that went away after my grandfather passed and the land was divided between too many greedy dumbasses. Do any of you think there’s any way possible that someone without significant family land could afford to begin really farming or ranching from scratch these days? Not talking an internet billionaire or some 12 acre boutique overgrown pepper garden calling itself a farm, but just some kid with an ag degree that’s interested in a farm or ranch lifestyle? I honestly think those days are long gone.

Yes, but you won’t see him/her on tv. They’ll be using really shitty equipment and running stocker calves or goats. Taylor Sheridan ain’t calling. 

[crimsonlonghorn 2310]

Little bit off topic, but kind of on topic...

When I visited Cortez, Colorado, a few years ago, one of the major industries is hay farming and I daydreamed about the idea of being a farmer in the area. It was just beautiful. All of western Colorado apparently grows a lot of irrigated grass and alfalfa with so many streams flowing west out of the mountains.

I have no idea how the economics work, but it seemed idyllic. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4980]

With the real estate market like it is right now it isn't likely. To make it work, you would need to find a pretty good sized stretch of pasture land in somewhere like East Texas that doesn't get the drought pressure that the rest of the state does for something like under $2500 per acre. Then you have equipment costs. You'd have to find 50 year old tractors in good working order to basic stuff, as well as implements. You'd also need to run a pretty intensive program that involves stuff like rotational grazing (putting up extra fences) and a terminal F2 hybrid system that requires maintenance of two different herds of cattle. Also, the price of cattle, of which you have none, has to be favorable enough to turn a profit.

[Shoxthemonkey 1983]

The 320a bordering my property just sold for $1.5M. Mostly really good bottom ground with 30a or so of timbered creek bed. Good bird and deer populations. I don't see how they are going to recoup that from farming and selling hunting leases. Raised the asking price for my 80 considerably.

[BabaYaga 15399]

On 2/21/2023 at 2:00 PM, Herbie Hancock said:

I was 100% being sarcastic. If you want to get into farming/ranching to get rich, go ahead and save yourself the years of headache and frustration and go down to Salvation Army and pay a bum whatever is in your savings account to kick you in the nuts REAL effin hard. Results will be similar.

ln a great year I make in the neighborhood of 500 or so round bales. At the end of the year I cover all of my expenses, with enough left to upgrade or buy a new implement or two and then cover my startup costs for the next year.
 

My grandmother makes a modest living off of her land, but she's on 2900 acres. She runs around 200 head, up from 150 five years ago but down from 600 in the late 90's. The typical rule of thumb is you need 3, preferably 5, acres of grass for every head you want to run unless you have a shit ton of hay to feed. Another rule of thumb is it's hard to feed a profit into a cow. Whatever money you're thinking about spending on this place, take it and buy a house in Cabo instead lol.

Best quote ever about getting rich in ranching:

How do you make a million with cattle & ranching?  Start with five...

[BabaYaga 15399]

Cousin runs Corriente cattle on our place.  Interesting breed.  Skinnier.  Onery.  Good moms.  100% free range fed.  What surprised me is how good their meat is.  Lean and a deep red.  Started as fodder for the Coleman and other local rodeos, but there's a meat market for them now as well.  Small one anyway.  

 

[hornmpa96 2632]

10 hours ago, GoPokes83 said:

Question. I grew up on an Oklahoma ranch that went away after my grandfather passed and the land was divided between too many greedy dumbasses. Do any of you think there’s any way possible that someone without significant family land could afford to begin really farming or ranching from scratch these days? Not talking an internet billionaire or some 12 acre boutique overgrown pepper garden calling itself a farm, but just some kid with an ag degree that’s interested in a farm or ranch lifestyle? I honestly think those days are long gone.

If you’re doing it from scratch, consider leasing land from someone for cheap. There are lots of landowners out there who want the ag exemption but don’t want to run an actual business. 

However the tax exemption for wildlife has made this less a necessity for land owners.

There is no way to do it if you are actually buying the land. Land valuations are way in excess of the actual productive value of the acreage.

[Lat22 4053]

On 2/21/2023 at 11:33 AM, Herbie Hancock said:

Just don't stick your dick in one, they're crazier than a shithouse rat and then you'll be the sucker I sell $190 rolls of hay to.

QFT.

[Spaulding Smails 1568]

So, I'm definitely in the watching from the sidelines crowd here, and I don't have any first hand experience on any of this, but I'm curious if a change in the typical model helps to mitigate some of the skinny margins.  I completely agree on the land being the determining factor in making any of this even remotely feasible.  But, I wonder if a more vertical model to integrate the entire process combined with ancillary cash crops and other livestock creates more profit opportunities along the way.  Granted, it takes the cap ex needed on the front end to another stratosphere, but I have half a mind to run a pro forma on it eventually.  Probably a pipe dream, and I couldn't do it on my few hundred acres in rocky, arid Kimble County, but I'm curious how much of an impact eliminating the profit margins of everything from the feed lot to the packing plant to the retailer have on the overall feasibility of running a cattle operation from a profitability standpoint. 

[Shoxthemonkey 1983]

2 hours ago, Spaulding Smails said:

So, I'm definitely in the watching from the sidelines crowd here, and I don't have any first hand experience on any of this, but I'm curious if a change in the typical model helps to mitigate some of the skinny margins.  I completely agree on the land being the determining factor in making any of this even remotely feasible.  But, I wonder if a more vertical model to integrate the entire process combined with ancillary cash crops and other livestock creates more profit opportunities along the way.  Granted, it takes the cap ex needed on the front end to another stratosphere, but I have half a mind to run a pro forma on it eventually.  Probably a pipe dream, and I couldn't do it on my few hundred acres in rocky, arid Kimble County, but I'm curious how much of an impact eliminating the profit margins of everything from the feed lot to the packing plant to the retailer have on the overall feasibility of running a cattle operation from a profitability standpoint. 

In English, por favor.

[Kennythetiger 9500]

7 minutes ago, Shoxthemonkey said:

In English, por favor.

He wonders if he can do with cows what Tyson and Smithfield did with chickens and pigs. I think most of the research says “Not really”. 

[Spaulding Smails 1568]

Ha!  Fair enough.  The Tyson / Smithfield model is a perfect example, but I'm talking about a local, individually owned level.

To rephrase in my native tongue:

If'n a feller had a section or two to run cattle, could he cut them big city boys out of the durn profits by sellin direct without havin to worry about the bank man callin his note every time it got drier'n a popcorn fart?

[hornmpa96 2632]

34 minutes ago, Spaulding Smails said:

Ha!  Fair enough.  The Tyson / Smithfield model is a perfect example, but I'm talking about a local, individually owned level.

To rephrase in my native tongue:

If'n a feller had a section or two to run cattle, could he cut them big city boys out of the durn profits by sellin direct without havin to worry about the bank man callin his note every time it got drier'n a popcorn fart?

That sounds close to the 44 Farms model. 

[DalTxHornFan 3123]

6 minutes ago, hornmpa96 said:

That sounds close to the 44 Farms model. 

Which is apparently generational land held since 1909.  Very hard to make the numbers work with modern-day land costs.

https://44farms.com/our-story/

[davidg 4040]

If you can pay taxes on the land, cover feed and whatever equipment costs you have, you’re doing good.   If you can make a couple hundred bucks or so  per calf even better.   Making a full living raising cattle?  Better have a thousand or so acres of really good pasture with lots of water that’s paid for and and access to some really cheap labor.

 

 

[CHIEF 5102]

On 2/21/2023 at 4:43 PM, hornmpa96 said:

The only way any of this works economically is if your land is free or purchased many years ago.

My Dad's number was $2000/acre to break even. Maybe $5000/acre for sprigged coastal. If you own the land outright, there is money to be made. We would buy cow/calf pairs with the cow already bred back. By the time you sold the second calf, you pretty much had your cow note paid off. If cattle prices were poor, it sometime took the third calf. You have to go way out in the fucking boonies now to find $2k/acre land, and that land can probably only support a cow per 30 acres or so. At our lease, in Benjamin, you can buy farmland at $1k/acre, but it only gets 10 inches of rain per year. The ranch we are on probably runs 60 acres per head.

CHIEF

[UT_OB1 2227]

Can you break even with with just the crop (coastal?) or do you have to have the cow too?

[Gil Bang 26101]

On 2/22/2023 at 9:03 PM, GoPokes83 said:

Question. I grew up on an Oklahoma ranch that went away after my grandfather passed and the land was divided between too many greedy dumbasses. Do any of you think there’s any way possible that someone without significant family land could afford to begin really farming or ranching from scratch these days? Not talking an internet billionaire or some 12 acre boutique overgrown pepper garden calling itself a farm, but just some kid with an ag degree that’s interested in a farm or ranch lifestyle? I honestly think those days are long gone.

 

[fattyflattie 4639]

6 hours ago, UT_OB1 said:

Can you break even with with just the crop (coastal?) or do you have to have the cow too?

Like anything else, it depends.  We’ve had years where we got loads of rain and had grass for days where 30 mins up the road had 2” cracks in the ground.   You can probably buy a small patch, keep it clean clean clean, and make $$ on squares sold to horse people.  You might be the guy who catches rain and has a tremendous 2nd and 3rd cut, while your neighbors are dry.  Or, you could be that guy rolling is ankle in the cracks. Lots of variables and luck involved. Just like chief said, you can do well on bred back cattle with a calf, if the markets right, and you can hold for a bit.  At the end of the day, it’s a lot of work and many do it because it’s as much in them as it is for the little bit of $$ they make.  

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4980]

If you have irrigation on a clean enough patch and put in the work to get it protein tested and all that stuff you can sell square bales to barrel racers for a lot of money. But that requires a pretty decent capital expenditure and a lot of work to keep it clean.

[Herbie Hancock 7393]

300 pounds an acre of 33-0-0 on almost 300 acres at $670/ton will make your heart hurt. One of the bigger checks I've ever written in my life. And of course the rain goes five miles north of us. Got cracks in the ground big enough to shove my index finger all the way in. Pawpaw was right this ain't no way to make a livin

[Hpara759 1781]

On 2/24/2023 at 11:44 AM, CHIEF said:

 in Benjamin

 

what's the Mustang 6 looking like this year?

[CHIEF 5102]

5 hours ago, Hpara759 said:

what's the Mustang 6 looking like this year?

Wetter than last year, but not by much. Had a couple of storms split and go N/S of us. Knox City and Munday have water running down the ditches, the Sixes has had a decent amount as well.

CHIEF

[Armybrat 41016]

Any of you South Texas guys know this rancher? 
Stumbled across the 2010 story while looking up old high school classmates:

http://blog.alexwaterhousehayward.com/2010/08/cowboy-for-21st-century.html

[Herbie Hancock 7393]

I need another fuckin project like I need a hole in the head. A and B range are out thanks to idiot employees. Needs a new starter. AC is out. Remotes leak like a sieve and all 4 tires only hold air for a few hours, but I have a soft spot for old JD's and this one was free.

[Kennythetiger 9500]

Careful what/who you’re calling “old”, son. 

[Herbie Hancock 7393]

Careful what/who you’re calling “old”, son. 

Ha fair point. I'm 36 and it's 44, and I don't think 44 is "old". Just feels like it's ancient given the technology that is in the tractors of today.

[davidg 4040]

I need another fuckin project like I need a hole in the head. A and B range are out thanks to idiot employees. Needs a new starter. AC is out. Remotes leak like a sieve and all 4 tires only hold air for a few hours, but I have a soft spot for old JD's and this one was free.

Probably only has 10 or 11 thousand hrs on it. A little work and youre good for 3 or 4K more.

[Herbie Hancock 7393]

4911 hrs and it's been in my family since it was bought new at the now defunct Bigon Implement in Taylor. It's got plenty of life left in it, just annoying at how neglected/abused it has been the last two decades

[Armybrat 41016]

On 7/17/2023 at 6:26 PM, Herbie Hancock said:

4911 hrs and it's been in my family since it was bought new at the now defunct Bigon Implement in Taylor. It's got plenty of life left in it, just annoying at how neglected/abused it has been the last two decades

I remember that business….on 79 as we drove in towards the west side of Taylor. 
Mrs. Brat doesn’t recall knowing any of the family though.

[RMac5 1551]

On 7/17/2023 at 7:16 AM, Herbie Hancock said:

I need another fuckin project like I need a hole in the head. A and B range are out thanks to idiot employees. Needs a new starter. AC is out. Remotes leak like a sieve and all 4 tires only hold air for a few hours, but I have a soft spot for old JD's and this one was free.

Is it a 3440? 

[Herbie Hancock 7393]

4440.

[fattyflattie 4639]

27 minutes ago, Herbie Hancock said:

4440.

Still worth some good $$$ once you get her back up. As you know, those have almost a cult fan club following.   

[WBT 20763]

On 7/17/2023 at 4:16 PM, Herbie Hancock said:

Ha fair point. I'm 36 and it's 44, and I don't think 44 is "old". Just feels like it's ancient given the technology that is in the tractors of today.

At least you can still work on it yourself

[gyroprotagonist 2595]

On 7/17/2023 at 7:16 AM, Herbie Hancock said:

I need another fuckin project like I need a hole in the head. A and B range are out thanks to idiot employees. Needs a new starter. AC is out. Remotes leak like a sieve and all 4 tires only hold air for a few hours, but I have a soft spot for old JD's and this one was free.

reminds me of my dad's (well grandad's) old JD.  towards the end we had to pull start it with the truck every time with my dad bitching my 12yo old ass out for taking off too fast.  air up the tires for every run.  hydraulics were actually decent and only leaked a bit.  eventually some rainwater got in the engine block and froze and that's all she wrote.  i want to say it was built in the 50s and lasted 35 years or so. 

quick web search and this photo looks the most like what i remember

 

The front wheels were definitely closer together than a lot of the other models and you had use the individual rear tire brake to turn.  Although it could have been a 4010 which was built in the early 60s.