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Are SEC defenses really that good?

sushihorn

By sushihorn
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sushihorn

sushihorn 3233

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The Big XII is widely acknowledged as the premier offensive conference in CFB.  SECSEC fans try to claim that their conference plays superior defense.  The former is very easy to substantiate given the offensive innovation and demand for offensive coaches from the Big XII in addition to the numbers themselves.  The later is actually an opinion with very little foundation in fact.

The claim of great SEC defense is often countered by other conference fans pointing out how bad the offenses are.  To some extent this is a circular argument on both sides as conferences are largely closed systems.  This is especially true in the SEC, which schedules very few quality opponents OOC and a ton of cupcakes – making inter-conference analysis particularly difficult.

To try and analyze this, I’ve take the biggest hole in that closed system: the move of 2 teams from the Big XII to the SEC.  Missouri and aggy were mid-tier competitors in Big XII football and they are pretty much the same in their new conference.  Looking specifically at offense though, you can see that their offenses have not fallen off by facing SEC defenses. 

aggy had a good passing attack in the Big XII but it was nothing special for this conference.  When they shifted to the SEC, their numbers immediately got better and their conference ranking went up enormously.  They were #16 in passing in 2009, followed by #18, 17, 14 (1st SEC year), 7, 12, 39, 20, 47, 35.  There was no passing drop off until they decided to go with a non-mobile QB Allen full time in 2015.

Mizzou was well into decline as they left the B12 and that continued their first 4 years in the SEC.  Their passing offense went from #14 in the country in 2009 to 32, 63, 77 (1st SEC year), 41, 99 and 112.  How did they reverse that decline?  By going back to their Big XII roots and hiring Josh Heupel as OC.  Mizzou immediately became the 2nd best offense in the SEC and was #1 in conference the next year.  When Heupel moved on to UCF, MU hired a strongly SEC-rooted OC and saw an immediate decline.

There really isn’t any evidence that moving to the SEC hurt the passing offenses that aggy and Mizzou had developed for Big XII play.  There are some great defenses in the SEC along with some really bad ones.  But there's little evidence that the average defense is any better than their Big XII counterparts.

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sushihorn

sushihorn 3233

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2 minutes ago, hookem48 said:

aggy didn't develope a Big 12 offense and take it to the SEC, it was a Conference USA or whatever U of H was offense that kicked the SEC's defenses asses.

Sumlin was an assistant in the Big XII for 6-7 years before taking the head job at UH.  But the point is that SEC defenses didn't shut down what we can now see was mediocre offensive coaching by the standards of our conference.

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dingleberryswitzer

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10 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

Sumlin was an assistant in the Big XII for 6-7 years before taking the head job at UH.  But the point is that SEC defenses didn't shut down what we can now see was mediocre offensive coaching by the standards of our conference.

Kingsbury was their first OC in the sec as well.

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wood

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1 hour ago, sushihorn said:

The Big XII is widely acknowledged as the premier offensive conference in CFB.  SECSEC fans try to claim that their conference plays superior defense.  The former is very easy to substantiate given the offensive innovation and demand for offensive coaches from the Big XII in addition to the numbers themselves.  The later is actually an opinion with very little foundation in fact.

 

The claim of great SEC defense is often countered by other conference fans pointing out how bad the offenses are.  To some extent this is a circular argument on both sides as conferences are largely closed systems.  This is especially true in the SEC, which schedules very few quality opponents OOC and a ton of cupcakes – making inter-conference analysis particularly difficult.

 

To try and analyze this, I’ve take the biggest hole in that closed system: the move of 2 teams from the Big XII to the SEC.  Missouri and aggy were mid-tier competitors in Big XII football and they are pretty much the same in their new conference.  Looking specifically at offense though, you can see that their offenses have not fallen off by facing SEC defenses. 

 

aggy had a good passing attack in the Big XII but it was nothing special for this conference.  When they shifted to the SEC, their numbers immediately got better and their conference ranking went up enormously.  They were #16 in passing in 2009, followed by #18, 17, 14 (1st SEC year), 7, 12, 39, 20, 47, 35.  There was no passing drop off until they decided to go with a non-mobile QB Allen full time in 2015.

 

Mizzou was well into decline as they left the B12 and that continued their first 4 years in the SEC.  Their passing offense went from #14 in the country in 2009 to 32, 63, 77 (1st SEC year), 41, 99 and 112.  How did they reverse that decline?  By going back to their Big XII roots and hiring Josh Heupel as OC.  Mizzou immediately became the 2nd best offense in the SEC and was #1 in conference the next year.  When Heupel moved on to UCF, MU hired a strongly SEC-rooted OC and saw an immediate decline.

 

There really isn’t any evidence that moving to the SEC hurt the passing offenses that aggy and Mizzou had developed for Big XII play.  There are some great defenses in the SEC along with some really bad ones.  But there's little evidence that the average defense is any better than their Big XII counterparts.

 

Great post.

1 hour ago, Auto Driller said:

No

Great post.

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sushihorn

sushihorn 3233

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1 minute ago, Napoleon said:

I feel like SEC defenses on average have larger/more athletic defensive linemen than other conferences. That is their greatest strength.

Have large athletic defensive linemen is a good place to start when putting together a defense, but more than just that is needed..

This is correct.  They are definitely bigger, stronger and slower in the SEC.  It's why they are better run stoppers than pass rushers.  What is under appreciated is the loss of quickness from using bigger players in the front 6/7.  They are a step slower to begin with and they lose even more in change of direction.  Unless a LB aligns outside as an overhang defender, he's going to have a hard time chasing down bubble screens.  There's a reason why there is so much YAC on short passes in that conference.

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austintiger

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SEC is no different than any other conference. We have good teams and bad teams. It's just the best conference overall because of one thing...Nick Saban. Take out Saban and it's nothing special. I honestly don't know how Aggies are going to be able to emotionally handle saban retiring. We'll probably need you guys to do welfare checks for us.

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Machinator

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1 minute ago, austintiger said:

SEC is no different than any other conference. We have good teams and bad teams. It's just the best conference overall because of one thing...Nick Saban. Take out Saban and it's nothing special. I honestly don't know how Aggies are going to be able to emotionally handle saban retiring. We'll probably need you guys to do welfare checks for us.

Are you a tiger of the Mizzou, Auburn, or LSU variety?

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chase25

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3 minutes ago, austintiger said:

SEC is no different than any other conference. We have good teams and bad teams. It's just the best conference overall because of one thing...Nick Saban. Take out Saban and it's nothing special. I honestly don't know how Aggies are going to be able to emotionally handle saban retiring. We'll probably need you guys to do welfare checks for us.

No give backs

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sushihorn

sushihorn 3233

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2 hours ago, joeycovers said:

SEC puts its best athletes on D

B12 puts its best athletess on O

SEC Dlines are more built for NFL but doesn't make them "better". 

Like the SEC, the NFL has historically been very risk averse on offense.  That is starting to change and that change is one reason why a failed HC in the Big XII just got snapped up as an OC by the pros.

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Vic Mackey

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3 hours ago, po elvis said:

last year Georgia gave up this to SEC teams:

3, 0, 14, 28(mizzou who scored 16 on us), 7, 10, 40, 13, 7, 26 (Bama).

they gave up 48 to OU.

End thread. SEC defenses look good when they play the antiquated SEC offenses who have a hard time with the forward pass. But look at what they look like when they play a spread team that knows what they are doing i.e. OU and Clemson. They get torched. Hell Wake Forest butt fucked Aggy up and down the field last year.

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Bill Lumbergh

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It's interesting watching sec and big 12 teams play.  Coaches build their teams to beat what other teams in their conferences do best. 

Defenses, especially in the sec, are built to defend big offensive lines and power backs.  The offenses, by and large, are pretty vanilla and don't stress you in a way to warrant building a defense the way you have to in the big 12.

The style of offense played by most of these teams isn't going to excite the top spread qb recruits, and as a result qb play in the league isn't very dynamic.  All of this leads to conservative game plans designed not to give the game away (eg, run a lot behind or big offensive line).  If you don't trust your qb or your offense to be efficient or dynamic, you'll play in a protective bubble that makes it very easy to scheme against you and can give the appearance that the defense is dominating you.

 The style of offense played in the big 12 demands a completely different style of defense.  You don't build your defense to shut these offenses down, only to contain/keep up with them.  You can't load up on run cloggers or they'll be put on an island every game against slots, rbs, and 4th wrs.

What big 12 defenses are not built to stop are strong power running games.  We don't see them all year, and the way sec offenses rep these plays is how leach reps his pass patterns or gtech reps the option.  They're just a lot better and more practiced at executing these plays than you are at defending them.  They also have better personnel to run the plays than you have to defend them. 

Last years ou/GA game is a good microcosm of all of this.  Both teams qbs threw for at or above their season average.  Both teams rbs hit their season high marks.  Both teams offenses had great days and defenses had terrible days because they simply aren't built to stop what the other team does best. 

Which is "better" is impossible to say, but it's absolutely a myth that big 12 offenses only thrive bc the defenses are bad.  If anything, the defenses are bad bc the offenses dictate that they must be.

The only outlier to all of this is Bama, who have had the players and coaches to be dominant at whatever style they've run for the past few years.  That's the myth that the entire sec is living on right now, although it's one that's starting to fall apart as Bama installs a more progressive offense and putting up more big 12 like numbers on those sec defenses. 

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Disco Missile

Disco Missile 456

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3 hours ago, Napoleon said:

I feel like SEC defenses on average have larger/more athletic defensive linemen than other conferences. That is their greatest strength.

Have large athletic defensive linemen is a good place to start when putting together a defense, but more than just that is needed..

 

3 hours ago, sushihorn said:

This is correct.  They are definitely bigger, stronger and slower in the SEC.  It's why they are better run stoppers than pass rushers.  What is under appreciated is the loss of quickness from using bigger players in the front 6/7.  They are a step slower to begin with and they lose even more in change of direction.  Unless a LB aligns outside as an overhang defender, he's going to have a hard time chasing down bubble screens.  There's a reason why there is so much YAC on short passes in that conference.

This is really the biggest difference. In the MB days we used to have really great d lines and that's what set us apart. No matter what offense you're up against, if you are in the backfield and disrupting plays in the first 2-3 seconds the opposing team is not going to be successful. That's why the 'highest scoring offense in the history of college football' managed 14 points against Florida and Leach's Tech teams would routinely get held to a TD or two by middle-of-the-road SEC teams. Their ability to get penetration with their down linemen makes all the difference.

Beyond that they have some great talent here and there, but really people are just talking about Bama, LSU, and sometimes Georgia and Florida when they talk about "SEC defense".

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