How Republicans are undermining our institutions

[CO Horn 172]

17 hours ago, DalTxHornFan said:

TLDR -- The IRS now has fewer auditors because there are more sophisticated ways of analyzing taxpayer compliance than just doing the old-fashioned field audits.

Yes, there are more sophisticated ways of analyzing taxpayer compliance.  However the IRS is probably 10-20 years behind the curve in technology.  Also, returns today are much more complex than they were 50 years ago.

[Anastasis 23699]

5 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

Ain't nobody like the tax man. 

Jesus tolerated one, but he made him get in line behind the prostitutes. Ordinal ranking sounds about right. 

[Anastasis 23699]

The True Defenders of Democracy!

 

[Al Bundy's Napoleon Hand 13619]

29 minutes ago, CO Horn said:

Yes, there are more sophisticated ways of analyzing taxpayer compliance.  However the IRS is probably 10-20 years behind the curve in technology.  Also, returns today are much more complex than they were 50 years ago.

We need tax reform!

[Anastasis 23699]

Just a little friendly harassment of law abiding business owners by one of the essential components of democracy.  Surly's always been a big fan of government misuse of civil forfeiture procedures. 

https://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2017reports/201730025fr.pdf

 

 

WHY TIGTA DID THE AUDIT

In October 2014, a new policy was instituted by IRS Criminal Investigation (CI) that it would no longer pursue the seizure and forfeiture of funds related to legal source structuring. In the same month the policy changed, the New York Times reported that CI had been seizing funds in structuring investigations without filing a criminal complaint. Property owners were left to prove their innocence, and many gave up trying. This audit was initiated to evaluate the IRS’s use of seizures against property owners suspected of structuring transactions to avoid Bank Secrecy Act reporting requirements.

WHAT TIGTA FOUND

Most of the seizures for structuring violations involved legal source funds from businesses. While current law does not require that the funds have an illegal source (e.g., money laundering or criminal activity other than alleged structuring), the purpose of CI’s civil forfeiture program is to interdict criminal enterprises. As a result, $17.1 million was seized and forfeited to the Government in 231 legal source cases. CI primarily relied on patterns of banking transactions to establish probable cause to seize assets for structuring violations. In most instances, interviews with the property owners were conducted after the seizure to determine the reason for the pattern of banking transactions and if the property owner had knowledge of the banking law and had intent to structure. CI procedures required agents to give subjects advice of rights in Title 26 cases (i.e., Internal Revenue Code) but not in Title 31 cases. In only five of the 229 interviews conducted, noncustodial statements of rights, such as the right to remain silent, were provided. For 54 investigations, the property owners provided realistic defenses or explanations, and for 43 of those cases, there was no evidence they were considered by CI. In 202 interviews, the property owners were not adequately informed of important information, such as the purpose of the interview, by CI during the interview. The outcomes for legal source cases lacked consistency. In 37 investigations, the Government appeared to have bargained nonprosecution to resolve the civil case. CI also needs to improve its process for identifying grand jury information.

 

Edited December 12, 2018 by Anastasis

[elfenix 34658]

the semantic argument is eliding the actual question, which is if the IRS has the funding/staff/resources available to properly collect the taxes it's charged with collecting, and, assuming not, whether a) the resources it does have are being spent in the best manner possible to collect taxes; and b) should further funding be appropriated.  i'm guessing a) is 'no' because the IRS is being charged with squeezing blood from turnips.  dunno about b), a) should probably be improved first.

[Brisketexan 106629]

42 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Just a little friendly harassment of law abiding business owners by one of the essential components of democracy.  Surly's always been a big fan of government misuse of civil forfeiture procedures. 

https://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2017reports/201730025fr.pdf

 

A perfectly valid criticism of the entity's conduct.  Shit, I suspect that the IRS is probably as ripe or more ripe for such criticism than 90% of the agencies out there.

Not a particularly valid criticism of the entity's existence and reason therefor.

I can do the same exercise with police departments, the military, the courts, etc. etc. ad infinitum.  Shit, you've done it yourself (lots of justified criticism of the military and cops, for example).  Every institution that is a valid and legitimate part of government....because those institutions are staffed by humans...will have a story of abuse, misconduct, etc.  That is not an argument against the entity's existence.  That's an argument against its conduct, and/or how people in power have abused and misused the agency.

Hell, I'm a pretty big critic of cops.  Lots of abuse of power.  But I am still a staunch defender of the fact that we need and should have local law enforcement entities.  It's one of the foundations of an ordered society.

You're not doing well with the logic on this thread.

[Anastasis 23699]

As I said earlier, I am not opposed to a revenue collection function, nor a law enforcement function. The OP and linked article claimed that budget cuts targeting the IRS was equivalent to undermining our democracy. Further the these funding measures reflect the ideological intent of one political party to dismantle democracy.  That is nonsense.  OMG a bureaucracy "on life support". What is amazing is that any efforts to constrain the scope or spending of federal agencies is couched as an attack against democracy.  Most of us working in the private sector are very familiar with budget cuts, managing expenses, being asked to do more with less, and held accountable to delivery. I reject the argument that managing such realities are an attack on the basic principles of political self determination. All aspects of the government need to get their shit in order and do more with less. I wouldn't rally around the IRS as a hallmark of democratic institutions of governance any more than I would rally around the TSA as a fundamental component of democracy.  But here we are. In the current political environment, you have Surly posters tripping over themselves to hold up the IRS as a beacon of democracy. But I guess that is just the logical struggle of the day. 

Edited December 12, 2018 by Anastasis

[Huckleberry 34407]

If only you could have seen that place. It is the stuff of legend. (Our house, not Oklahoma. Being raised by an older generation gives you an odd perspective.)

I bet being raised by a younger generation gives you an even odder perspective.

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

19 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

23 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

If only you could have seen that place. It is the stuff of legend. (Our house, not Oklahoma. Being raised by an older generation gives you an odd perspective.)

I bet being raised by a younger generation gives you an even odder perspective.

I got a little of both. My mom was 20 when she had me, and then she handed me over to her parents, more or less. My dad was a bit older and after he divorced my mom, he played a much stronger role than she did, but my grandparents were the constants. 

[MaybeACoordinator 8350]

3 hours ago, Chad Fuck said:

This sounds pretty standard for a child of the Depression.  

It was weird. Houston was pretty much in a second Depression then, thanks to the Oil Bust and the S&L meltdown. My grandparents were used to it. I was too, I guess, becauae it was all I knew. 

[David Dennison 19441]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

 In the current political environment, you have Surly posters tripping over themselves to hold up the IRS as a beacon of democracy. But I guess that is just the logical struggle of the day. 

That is one impressive straw man.

[Mdhorn 6153]

On 12/11/2018 at 5:21 PM, Brisketexan said:

oklahoma is the part with paper sacks of trash and roaches, right?

I'd add Kansas.  

[Brisketexan 106629]

As I said earlier, I am not opposed to a revenue collection function, nor a law enforcement function. The OP and linked article claimed that budget cuts targeting the IRS was equivalent to undermining our democracy. Further the these funding measures reflect the ideological intent of one political party to dismantle democracy.  That is nonsense.  OMG a bureaucracy "on life support". What is amazing is that any efforts to constrain the scope or spending of federal agencies is couched as an attack against democracy.  Most of us working in the private sector are very familiar with budget cuts, managing expenses, being asked to do more with less, and held accountable to delivery. I reject the argument that managing such realities are an attack on the basic principles of political self determination. All aspects of the government need to get their shit in order and do more with less. I wouldn't rally around the IRS as a hallmark of democratic institutions of governance any more than I would rally around the TSA as a fundamental component of democracy.  But here we are. In the current political environment, you have Surly posters tripping over themselves to hold up the IRS as a beacon of democracy. But I guess that is just the logical struggle of the day. 

So...were they heavy? The goalposts, I mean. When you moved them. Your initial position is that the IRS isn’t important. Now, you’re arguing about whether the funding argument is on target.

Sorry, you pantsed yourself. Either revenue is important to a government or it’s not. You’re making yourself look even sillier than usual.

[Anastasis 23699]

I am not the one moving goal posts. People like yourself equating a dysfunctional IRS with an essential component of democracy are the ones with fucked up success parameters.  Next go around you are going to tell me that a TSA agent sticking their finger up your ass is essential to democracy, and I'm the fucking asshole moving the goalposts cause maybe I don't get as much enjoyment out of it. 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Anastasis

[Anastasis 23699]

And for the record, under the right circumstances I don't so much mind one knuckle. I just don't particularly appreciate an agent of the government doing it without the proper invitation. 

[David Dennison 19441]

We should probably pay our taxes on the honor system. That should get the government fully funded.

[Anastasis 23699]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

We should probably pay our taxes on the honor system. That should get the government fully funded.

Cause there is nothing we can arrive at between the honor system and a government entity harassing law abiding citizens at threat of violence.  

[Brisketexan 106629]

Cause there is nothing we can arrive at between the honor system and a government entity harassing law abiding citizens at threat of violence.  

Which was exactly the point of numerous folks earlier in the thread.

The only finger up your ass is your own, and your self-satisfied sniffing of it is a bit unbecoming. But you do you. I ain’t judgy about that sort of thing.

[Brew 3049]

10 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Cause there is nothing we can arrive at between the honor system and a government entity harassing law abiding citizens at threat of violence.  

Not really, because you have so many people trying to game the system. If people paid what they owed, you don’t need the IRS. They don’t which then requires enforcement just the same as if no laws were broken you would need no police. However, humans are a fucked up sort of creature that constantly tries to fuck over / one up the other.

The IRS and their budget cuts are no place for sympathy either though. They hire the lowest common denominator in a lot of cases to fill seats rather than actually going after professionals. I’ve got a degree, an advanced degree, and 20 years into finding every line in the system I can push right up to and there is a ton in the code I still don’t know or understand. I have a lady in my office now doing an audit that works for the IRS who was arrested along with her husband for cooking meth in the attic while two kids were in the house about two years ago. She was ultimately cleared and kept her job, but if you want to take bets I’m probably going to win whatever argument comes up.

The IRS is a broken institution because the tax code is a broken system. I have people that work for me that specialize in specific code sections. They couldn’t do a complete tax return if they had to, but they can wear anyone out on code section whatever. I shouldn’t need them. Simplify the system, automate the system, hire competent people to monitor the system, and most people could pay less than they pay today. Clusterfucks and bureaucracy and pensions are expensive to fund. It’s part of the reason a lot of states (LA being one of the first) are starting to outsource tax collection and audit. Now you get into a scenario where a for profit corporation is performing an audit on a compensatory arrangement which hasn’t been good so far.

[Anastasis 23699]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Which was exactly the point of numerous folks earlier in the thread.

Quote one. I see a series of posters equivocating on those issues. 

[Anastasis 23699]

14 minutes ago, Brew said:

The IRS is a broken institution because the tax code is a broken system

Why you hate democracy.

[David Dennison 19441]

41 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Cause there is nothing we can arrive at between the honor system and a government entity harassing law abiding citizens at threat of violence.  

If you are skirting the tax code, you are not a law abiding citizen. 

[Anastasis 23699]

 

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

If you are skirting the tax code, you are not a law abiding citizen. 

If you ain't rubbing you ain't racing. 

 

In reality, the tax code is such a fucking disaster that if you have an even mildly complex filing you have uncontrollable risk exposure. My shit ain't complex at all, but I say a little prayer and do the cross when I hit the submit button.  

[formermav43 4607]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

If you are skirting the tax code, you are not a law abiding citizen. 

If you’re not doing anything wrong, you don’t have anything to worry about...

5 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Just a little friendly harassment of law abiding business owners by one of the essential components of democracy.  Surly's always been a big fan of government misuse of civil forfeiture procedures. 

https://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2017reports/201730025fr.pdf

 

 

WHY TIGTA DID THE AUDIT

In October 2014, a new policy was instituted by IRS Criminal Investigation (CI) that it would no longer pursue the seizure and forfeiture of funds related to legal source structuring. In the same month the policy changed, the New York Times reported that CI had been seizing funds in structuring investigations without filing a criminal complaint. Property owners were left to prove their innocence, and many gave up trying. This audit was initiated to evaluate the IRS’s use of seizures against property owners suspected of structuring transactions to avoid Bank Secrecy Act reporting requirements.

WHAT TIGTA FOUND

Most of the seizures for structuring violations involved legal source funds from businesses. While current law does not require that the funds have an illegal source (e.g., money laundering or criminal activity other than alleged structuring), the purpose of CI’s civil forfeiture program is to interdict criminal enterprises. As a result, $17.1 million was seized and forfeited to the Government in 231 legal source cases. CI primarily relied on patterns of banking transactions to establish probable cause to seize assets for structuring violations. In most instances, interviews with the property owners were conducted after the seizure to determine the reason for the pattern of banking transactions and if the property owner had knowledge of the banking law and had intent to structure. CI procedures required agents to give subjects advice of rights in Title 26 cases (i.e., Internal Revenue Code) but not in Title 31 cases. In only five of the 229 interviews conducted, noncustodial statements of rights, such as the right to remain silent, were provided. For 54 investigations, the property owners provided realistic defenses or explanations, and for 43 of those cases, there was no evidence they were considered by CI. In 202 interviews, the property owners were not adequately informed of important information, such as the purpose of the interview, by CI during the interview. The outcomes for legal source cases lacked consistency. In 37 investigations, the Government appeared to have bargained nonprosecution to resolve the civil case. CI also needs to improve its process for identifying grand jury information.

 

 

[Anastasis 23699]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

If you are skirting the tax code, you are not a law abiding citizen. 

Also, share your thoughts with the countless law abiding business owners who have been systematically harassed by the IRS using forfeiture procedures. 

[David Dennison 19441]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

If you ain't rubbing you ain't racing. 

In reality, the tax code is such a fucking disaster that if you have an even mildly complex filing you have uncontrollable risk exposure. My shit ain't complex at all, but I say a little prayer and do the cross when I hit the submit button.  

That might be true, but it's not the fault of the IRS.

[Anastasis 23699]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

That might be true, but it's not the fault of the IRS.

https://www.treasury.gov/tigta/auditreports/2017reports/201730025fr.pdf

[Biff Tannen 46061]

This thread sucks

[David Dennison 19441]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Also, share your thoughts with the countless law abiding business owners who have been systematically harassed by the IRS using forfeiture procedures. 

I think it's an extremely narrow issue that has been addressed by the IG.

[Anastasis 23699]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

 I think it's an extremely narrow issue that has been addressed by the IG.

LOL. IRS posture wrt to harassment of law abiding business owners and citizens is a narrow issue. JFC. 

[Brew 3049]

In 20 years I know of zero cases personally where an individual/business was hit with forfeiture proceedings by the IRS. The state tax enforcement divisions are another matter. I know of plenty where you could argue it’s harassment for what they have had to deal with in relation to the IRS.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Brew

[Anastasis 23699]

5 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

This thread sucks

our institutions of democracy are being undermined and you don't give a shit. bastard.

[David Dennison 19441]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

LOL. IRS posture wrt to harassment of law abiding business owners and citizens is a narrow issue. JFC. 

Your issue is with Congress, not the IRS. You know that.

[Brew 3049]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

That might be true, but it's not the fault of the IRS.

The fault of the IRS lies with how they have chosen to enforce compliance with the tax code. They are years behind technologically, they are years behind in tax law changes as an institution, they hire enforcement staff that have no business being in the tax game, etc. They are fighting a battle they can’t win, but they step on their own dicks more than any other government institution I know of.

[David Dennison 19441]

Just now, Brew said:

The fault of the IRS lies with how they have chosen to enforce compliance with the tax code. They are years behind technologically, they are years behind in tax law changes as an institution, they hire enforcement staff that have no business being in the tax game, etc. They are fighting a battle they can’t win, but they step on their own dicks more than any other government institution I know of.

Again, this is a problem with Congress. 

[Brew 3049]

No, the IRS chooses how to allocate it’s budget.

[David Dennison 19441]

Just now, Brew said:

No, the IRS chooses how to allocate it’s budget.

And Congress appropriates the funds. It also has broad oversight powers of not only the IRS, but all of Treasury. If there is a problem with the IRS, it's the duty of our wonderful elected representatives to deal with it.

[Anastasis 23699]

Just now, David Dennison said:

If there is a problem with the IRS, it's the duty of our wonderful elected representatives to deal with it.

[David Dennison 19441]

Just now, Anastasis said:

At least you recognize you're a cynic. Most people don't.

[Brew 3049]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

And Congress appropriates the funds. It also has broad oversight powers of not only the IRS, but all of Treasury. If there is a problem with the IRS, it's the duty of our wonderful elected representatives to deal with it.

You can go in that bullshit circle all day by saying then if there is a problem with Congress, it is the duty of the people to deal with it. Everyone has a master of course, but the IRS could better use it’s resources to deal with enforcement of the tax code. That is an IRS problem.

[David Dennison 19441]

6 minutes ago, Brew said:

You can go in that bullshit circle all day by saying then if there is a problem with Congress, it is the duty of the people to deal with it. Everyone has a master of course, but the IRS could better use it’s resources to deal with enforcement of the tax code. That is an IRS problem.

Well, that's that.

[atomheartbevo 90549]

2 hours ago, Anastasis said:

And for the record, under the right circumstances I don't so much mind one knuckle. I just don't particularly appreciate an agent of the government doing it without the proper invitation. 

[wildcat09 29559]

Anastasis’ commitment to bothsiderism has made him so much more unbearable the farther the GOP has gone down the rabbit hole.

[Smax 3800]

23 hours ago, thrillhammer said:

Rightwing mantra = "Support our troops! Support our troops!"   "Down with taxes! Down with taxes!"

 

whats it like living in a vacuum