2020 Senate Elections

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

1 minute ago, troph said:

we already have universal health care - at least emergency health care - and it's the most expensive it could ever be, in the ER.  it's paid by local taxes usually. but the poor, once stabilized, are kicked out and told to go home.  they might be back, they might not be.  they may die at home, or die in the hospital in the ER.  truth is if we organized our healthcare like reasonable humans, it's probably close to paid for already with healthcare at the local level unburdended and other folks not having to pay for premiums.  there is no rational basis and for the love of Jesus Christ himself there is no moral basis to deny universal healthcare as a privilege of being human in a modern world.  none.

Ok. But what does that even mean. There’s 4 words there that have vastly different meaning to different people. 

[troph 24563]

17 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Ok. But what does that even mean. There’s 4 words there that have vastly different meaning to different people. 

everyone in our country should get healthcare coverage similar to that you and I have.  medicare for all basically.  I think it makes economic and moral sense.

Edited September 9, 2020 by troph

[FondrenRoad 4378]

I mean, we don’t let people buy flood insurance when there’s a storm in the gulf, we don’t let people buy house insurance after their house burns down and we don’t let people buy any kind of insurance after the catastrophic event happens. We also don’t let people die in the street (typically) on the flip side so it’s not like there’s a good answer. But why the hell have I spent upwards of $250,000 (and counting) so far in my life (I’m a man! I’m 42) if it’s not necessary to have when I get cancer or sometime in my family has a heart attack or something. 
there’s a huge free rider problem that exists as long as America is a mostly kind and caring country that I don’t see any solution to. All that said- dude is a moron for saying any of this out loud at his candidates event and he deserves whatever blowback comes his way. But yeah at some point what can society do and what is it’s responsibility?  Pallatative care?  Cutting edge?  Try everything possible?  Death panels?  Doctors rationing off care. 
I don’t see any good answer for any of this, but I’m all ears. Dying under a bridge sounds awful and giving everyone platinum care, whether they bought insurance or can pay for it or not, seems impractical and likely to bankrupt society. You tell me how it’s fixed. I’m all ears on this one. 

This is why single payer is a better system. That way people can't choose to opt out while healthy and then try to opt in when they become sick. And they can all pay in to the system via their taxes. Our opt in insurance model simply isn't an efficient way to pay for or distribute healthcare.

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

9 minutes ago, troph said:

everyone in our country should get healthcare coverage similar to that you and I have.  medicare for all basically.  I think it makes economic and moral sense.

Maybe on the economic. On the moral that depends upon improving health outcomes in the aggregate for more people than what the current system does, and Weighs various opportunity costs for what we could do with that money societally. I suspect that would be the case but law of unintended consequences can be a bitch. You can set out to improve a system and actually make it worse. 
And I’m a bronze medal Obama care recipient. I suspect my health coverage is much shittier than yours. So you are comparing, I suspect, two different things when you lump us together. Which is a problem. 
this whole thing is insanely complicated when you get to working for out the devil in the details. I think a lot of that is being hand waived away. 

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

7 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

This is why single payer is a better system. That way people can't choose to opt out while healthy and then try to opt in when they become sick. And they can all pay in to the system via their taxes. Our opt in insurance model simply isn't an efficient way to pay for or distribute healthcare.

Single payer helps in that regard, sure. But it’s got other problems I’m sure. I literally hate what we currently do so I’m not waiving pom poms for the current system or opposed to reform that makes sense. 
there’s literally only one thing I’m 100% opposed to and that’s denying additional coverage or higher quality care for those who want something better than whatever universal care ends up being and are willing to pay for that themselves. That would be my only non negotiable. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[troph 24563]

10 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Maybe on the economic. On the moral that depends upon improving health outcomes in the aggregate for more people than what the current system does, and Weighs various opportunity costs for what we could do with that money societally. I suspect that would be the case but law of unintended consequences can be a bitch. You can set out to improve a system and actually make it worse. 
And I’m a bronze medal Obama care recipient. I suspect my health coverage is much shittier than yours. So you are comparing, I suspect, two different things when you lump us together. Which is a problem. 
this whole thing is insanely complicated when you get to working for out the devil in the details. I think a lot of that is being hand waived away. 

you want to pay or not pay for extra that's your american perogative if you have means, but there is a moral rationale for all people to have basic healthcare covered.  we all know people who had an illness and were sent home to die because they didn't have health coverage.  I'm not comparing you to me, I'm comparing those with nothing to those with anything from a basic plan to a cadillac plan. we need to decide what base plan all people should have (I think Medicare is a great place to start, if it's good enough for my grandmother then it's good enough for my neighbor) and make sure no one has less than at least that base plan.  To claim there is no moral imperative for that kind of coverage is playing mental twister with people's lives.

[troph 24563]

and I'm saying my taxes should go up.  I'm also saying maybe yours don't.  maybe you should have a net amount back in your pocket when you take current taxes + health care costs and compare to a maybe higher tax with no health care costs --> maybe for you that should be a net increase in money in your pocket.  look, it's time we stop fucking people over as a society on some preconceived notion that getting fucked is better than the alternative.  no the alternative is we take our immense wealth and we as a society become our brother and our sister's keeper.  goddammit I'm so sick and tired of the politics in this.  kindness, doing the right thing and taking care of people isn't hard, it's quite easy.  what's hard is the contortions we do in order to justify fucking people over because the alternative is so much worse.  that's the moral rationale and the moral imperative.

Edited September 10, 2020 by troph

[pyrohornIII 4809]

So how long has Cornyn held his senate seat?  22 years?  And here we are still looking for the answers to our healthcare issues.   

Doesn't seem like he's doing all that bang-up a job solving this (or anything), but you go ahead and vote for him.   He's clearly the right choice.

 

Tobacco and alcohol have made billions off of the American public, knowing about addictions and health concerns to using their products.  Sugar is another huge addictive product being pushed.   Acceptable sizes of soft drinks has grown from 6.5 ounces to 44 oz or better.  Bags of chips have tripled in size and price.  

People are making money off of Americans and slowly killing them over time with their unhealthy products.  Little warning labels, confusing nutrition labels  and no real education, not even an attempt at it.  Not taken seriously.  

Still I think those corporations should be held accountable and money put aside for education.  They did it with big tobacco.  That was a half ass attempt.   I am not saying they have to pay for everything, but they should do something to help change the overall health of the nation, at least.  

We dropped the number of smokers dramatically with years of ad campaigns against smoking.  We need to start the same thing for diabetes and heart health, at the very least.

Edited September 10, 2020 by pyrohornIII

[Cairn Horn88 8184]

Cornyn has finally come out from under his desk where he’s been hiding for the past 3 years.....surfaces to tell everybody how well he has been helping us here in Texas.....and not one push-back to the clown under the big top.  Vote him out.

[thepop 4409]

12 hours ago, StassneyHorn said:

For the “Where is MJ?” folks. Starts today on tv

 

Here it is:

 

[thepop 4409]

I know it's a waste but I'm giving her a donation. Cornyn just pisses me off.

[troph 24563]

Oh great now she’s going to mansplain to us why she’s better than Cornyn. Ugh.

[hayden_horn 11360]

9 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Me. Me. Me. You are talking about me right here. I’m sitting it out. If I thought my vote was necessary to put cornyn over the top I’d probably deign to leave my home and cast it, but I’m not going to bother showing up to vote for someone I’m at best indifferent toward when the top of the ticket is marked by someone I loathe. 
If I felt some moral imperative to vote, like some around here do, I’d show up and pull the lever for Cornyn without even thinking 2 seconds about it, while also writing myself in for potus or something equally stupid (maybe just no vote). I think you are right that a lot Of this will happen and cornyn will run way in front of Trump. 

honestly, with his behavior over the past year or two, peaking with his corona beer post, i cannot fathom how anyone could possibly be a supporter of cornyn. his fall from grace into flat out nihilism has been spectacular. fuck john cornyn.

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

10 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

honestly, with his behavior over the past year or two, peaking with his corona beer post, i cannot fathom how anyone could possibly be a supporter of cornyn. his fall from grace into flat out nihilism has been spectacular. fuck john cornyn.

I have no idea what you are talking about with regards to corona beer post in particular or cornyns behavior in general. He’s always seemed to me to be beige paint go along to get along boring and a non entity. I’ve never followed anything he’s done (but I think bozo says his constituent service is much better than Cruz- maybe even good- but I could be making that up). 

[hayden_horn 11360]

Just now, Wulaw Horn said:

I have no idea what you are talking about with regards to corona beer post in particular or cornyns behavior in general. He’s always seemed to me to be beige paint go along to get along boring and a non entity. I’ve never followed anything he’s done (but I think bozo says his constituent service is much better than Cruz- maybe even good- but I could be making that up). 

 

he has also lost all scruples and is basically a trump mouthpiece these days. @Bozo_Casanova did once compliment his constituent service, and i have no idea how that has changed or not, honestly, but his descent recently has me regretting every vote i've cast for the man. fuck him.

[Disco Strangler 1865]

I have donated to M J.  That said . . . Her best chance for victory is being the only viable candidate as Trump self-immolates and takes every treasonous R down with him.  So, I give her a 50/50 shot.  

As a corollary, John C was a fellow San Antonian who rose to power under “normal” Republican principles and was someone I disagreed with, but never thought was anti- American, anti-democracy or nihilistic (fucker was on Tx Sup Ct and signed my law license).  It has never been more clear that he is not only complacent but complicit in the complete subversion of our democracy.   A canary in the coal mine as to what Trump would do to the (R) party (spoiler alert: he turned it into a glory hole for himself and his yes-men).

Not to short-change him, but Ted Cruz is a piece of shit, yet he is the bastard who we always knew he was. However, Corny  is worse because he bent the knee, folded up any ‘principles’ he had and has been the Trump cheerleader that would embarrass anyone who know what real character looks like. He turned a blind eye as Trump took a flamethrower to our Constitution, himself took the tea-party position of no compromises as whip in the senate, toasted COVID-19 with a Corona beer, and lastly stopped answering constituent emails asking for a dialogue on his role on important Texas issues in the Senate  Fuck Corny.  

 

[BradInATX 9208]

3 hours ago, troph said:

we already have universal health care - at least emergency health care - and it's the most expensive it could ever be, in the ER.  it's paid by local taxes usually. but the poor, once stabilized, are kicked out and told to go home.  they might be back, they might not be.  they may die at home, or die in the hospital in the ER.  truth is if we organized our healthcare like reasonable humans, it's probably close to paid for already with healthcare at the local level unburdended and other folks not having to pay for premiums.  there is no rational basis and for the love of Jesus Christ himself there is no moral basis to deny universal healthcare as a privilege of being human in a modern world.  none.

This was the argument that, when made to me many years ago by someone who I respect, got me to start considering that UHC might be the way to go, or at least a public option. I've used it amongst several more Republican leaning friends, typically with success. Not that it's going to turn them into Democrats all of the sudden (though a couple of them are sitting 2020 out), but it's a new avenue of making moderates and reasonable Republicans think about it reasonably. 

[hornmpa96 2598]

Has Cornyn figured out if children can get the Corona Virus yet?

[Bozo_Casanova 26284]

11 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

 

he has also lost all scruples and is basically a trump mouthpiece these days. @Bozo_Casanova did once compliment his constituent service, and i have no idea how that has changed or not, honestly, but his descent recently has me regretting every vote i've cast for the man. fuck him.

I’ll give him credit for good constituent service, which Cruz doesn’t do at all. But otherwise Cornyn has always traded what was best for Texas and Texans for his own advancement and advocacy for his party’s exclusive interest. He’s really @Ag with kids idea of a perfect legislator. Cornyn represents his party and his role in the party, and nothing else. 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Bozo_Casanova

[Biff Tannen 45499]

12 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I’ve never followed anything he’s done

Good reason to vote for someone.

[gmr548 16517]

this whole thing is insanely complicated when you get to working for out the devil in the details. I think a lot of that is being hand waived away. 

Who knew healthcare could be so complicated?

[Ag with kids 581]

19 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I’ll give him credit for good constituent service, which Cruz doesn’t do at all. But otherwise Cornyn has always traded what was best for Texas and Texans for his own advancement and advocacy for his party’s exclusive interest. He’s really @Ag with kids idea of a perfect legislator. Cornyn represents his party and his role in the party, and nothing else. 

Not going to drag me back in the cesspool with unfounded claims...

Carry on...

[Firemans4Horn 17834]

14 hours ago, troph said:

and I'm saying my taxes should go up.  I'm also saying maybe yours don't.  maybe you should have a net amount back in your pocket when you take current taxes + health care costs and compare to a maybe higher tax with no health care costs --> maybe for you that should be a net increase in money in your pocket.  look, it's time we stop fucking people over as a society on some preconceived notion that getting fucked is better than the alternative.  no the alternative is we take our immense wealth and we as a society become our brother and our sister's keeper.  goddammit I'm so sick and tired of the politics in this.  kindness, doing the right thing and taking care of people isn't hard, it's quite easy.  what's hard is the contortions we do in order to justify fucking people over because the alternative is so much worse.  that's the moral rationale and the moral imperative.

Great points. This study just came out and shows quality of life in America going significantly backwards, and access to healthcare being one of the main reasons why: 

The United States, despite its immense wealth, military power and cultural influence, ranks 28th — having slipped from 19th in 2011. The index now puts the United States behind significantly poorer countries, including Estonia, Czech Republic, Cyprus and Greece.

“We are no longer the country we like to think we are,” said Porter.

The United States ranks No. 1 in the world in quality of universities, but No. 91 in access to quality basic education. The U.S. leads the world in medical technology, yet we are No. 97 in access to quality health care.

 

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

18 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I mean, we don’t let people buy flood insurance when there’s a storm in the gulf, we don’t let people buy house insurance after their house burns down and we don’t let people buy any kind of insurance after the catastrophic event happens. We also don’t let people die in the street (typically) on the flip side so it’s not like there’s a good answer. But why the hell have I spent upwards of $250,000 (and counting) so far in my life (I’m a man! I’m 42) if it’s not necessary to have when I get cancer or sometime in my family has a heart attack or something. 
there’s a huge free rider problem that exists as long as America is a mostly kind and caring country that I don’t see any solution to. All that said- dude is a moron for saying any of this out loud at his candidates event and he deserves whatever blowback comes his way. But yeah at some point what can society do and what is it’s responsibility?  Pallatative care?  Cutting edge?  Try everything possible?  Death panels?  Doctors rationing off care. 
I don’t see any good answer for any of this, but I’m all ears. Dying under a bridge sounds awful and giving everyone platinum care, whether they bought insurance or can pay for it or not, seems impractical and likely to bankrupt society. You tell me how it’s fixed. I’m all ears on this one. 

The ACA was a great first step to solving our coverage problems but politics got too involved. Prior to 2008, requiring people to be accountable for their health costs, would have been a GOP ideal. But since Obama wanted it, it was the worst plan in the history of mankind. The ACA was far from perfect but you can't always have a revolution. Instead start with a evolution.

We need to find a method to make coverage affordable. Then either require coverage or tell people they're on their own. Basically make it realistic that people can purchase coverage and if they choose not to, they have to suffer the consequences. Pay cash, gofundme, whatever. 

When you mention rationing, every healthcare system in the world rations. No one has unlimited healthcare on-demand. That ideal is impossible to achieve.

[troph 24563]

it's impossible to achieve and isn't even the best outcome.  people die, best way to die is outside of the hospital without a lot of intense intervention.  I'll ration my end of life care on my own.  when it's time to go, it's time to go.  and knowing that, I'm living it up now.  that's the best healthcare for our elders.  live a good life, the one you want, then hug your loved ones goodbye, say your parting words of wisdom, close your eyes and go to sleep.  we have death all wrong.  we wait and wait then have panic and regrets, we aren't ready and then we hold on for dear life and it's a total cluster.

[Bozo_Casanova 26284]

18 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Not going to drag me back in the cesspool with unfounded claims...

Carry on...

And yet, here you are. The book of Matthew reminds us that no man can serve two masters. You have stated, repeatedly, that the party interest is deserving of representation coming at the expense of community interest representation. Cornyn, in that he represents national party and national party financial interest exclusively in the legislative process is just a pure form of the outcome you've defended in discussions of gerrymandering.  

[Ag with kids 581]

12 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

And yet, here you are. The book of Matthew reminds us that no man can serve two masters. You have stated, repeatedly, that the party interest is deserving of representation coming at the expense of community interest representation. Cornyn, in that he represents national party and national party financial interest exclusively in the legislative process is just a pure form of the outcome you've defended in discussions of gerrymandering.  

[Ag with kids 581]

42 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

And yet, here you are. The book of Matthew reminds us that no man can serve two masters. You have stated, repeatedly, that the party interest is deserving of representation coming at the expense of community interest representation. Cornyn, in that he represents national party and national party financial interest exclusively in the legislative process is just a pure form of the outcome you've defended in discussions of gerrymandering.  

I really don't want to get sucked in...but I do want to point out that this is an incorrect representation of my position (which was in regard to gerrymandering so bringing it up on a Senate thread is odd).

Edited September 10, 2020 by Ag with kids
Someone must not like Aggies since I just got negged for this post...sigh...

[Bozo_Casanova 26284]

20 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

I really don't want to get sucked in...but I do want to point out that this is an incorrect representation of my position (which was in regard to gerrymandering so bringing it up on a Senate thread is odd).

Not really, you've advocated gerrymandering as a way to make a local race a proxy for statewide races for the sole purpose of party representation. Cornyn is a statewide official who only represents party. Freed from any local or apolitical concern, he is the model of what you've advocated at the representative level.   A bunch of local level John Cornyns. 

[Ag with kids 581]

2 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Not really, you've advocated gerrymandering as a way to make a local race a proxy for statewide races for the sole purpose of party representation. Cornyn is a statewide official who only represents party. Freed from any local or apolitical concern, he is the model of what you've advocated at the representative level.   A bunch of local level John Cornyns. 

Again...you've gotten my position incorrect.

[RDCanecutter 26282]

14 hours ago, thepop said:

I know it's a waste but I'm giving her a donation. Cornyn just pisses me off.

A more satisfying move might be to bump into Cornyn, and lift his wallet.

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

Good reason to vote for someone.

I’ve not ever voted for him either. 

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

1 hour ago, gmr548 said:

 

 

Who knew healthcare could be so complicated?

 

So is immigration. So is everything we argue about policy wise. 

[Biff Tannen 45499]

23 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

If I felt some moral imperative to vote, like some around here do, I’d show up and pull the lever for Cornyn without even thinking 2 seconds about it, while also writing myself in for potus or something equally stupid (maybe just no vote)

My bad.  I missed the first part of this.  Why do you even jump into discussions here if you have no intention of voting?

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

My bad.  I missed the first part of this.  Why do you even jump into discussions here if you have no intention of voting?

I like the horse race aspect of elections the same way I like pregame analysis. 
I like talking about how things ought to be but nobody is going to get there with incremental common sense based ways to try to make things a little better and then go from there. 
I’m never going to design a scheme for UT football but I can talk about the offensive coordinator. I’m never going to get the chance to fire Shaka Smart but it doesn’t mean I don’t have an opinion on it. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26284]

6 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

Again...you've gotten my position incorrect.

Have I, or are you being unrealistic about what your defense of partisan representation actually means? Having read your position a number of times I think the latter. 

It's kind of like when I argue with socialists about the reality on the ground in communist countries and what communism does. They invariably pull out some variation of the old chestnut that communism hasn't failed because it has never really been tried. Which is of course wrong, it has been tried and it leads to a specific set of outcomes. 

Partisan gerrymandering leads to a specific, predictable set of outcomes and behaviors, all negative. It's not that I don't understand your position. It's that you choose not to accept that the outcome your position is inevitable, or don't accept that it's negative, or both. 

[Ag with kids 581]

1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Have I, or are you being unrealistic about what your defense of partisan representation actually means? Having read your position a number of times I think the latter. 

It's kind of like when I argue with socialists about the reality on the ground in communist countries and what communism does. They invariably pull out some variation of the old chestnut that communism hasn't failed because it has never really been tried. Which is of course wrong, it has been tried and it leads to a specific set of outcomes. 

Partisan gerrymandering leads to a specific, predictable set of outcomes and behaviors, all negative. It's not that I don't understand your position. It's that you choose not to accept that the outcome your position is inevitable, or don't accept that it's negative, or both. 

Yes.

[gmr548 16517]

So is immigration. So is everything we argue about policy wise. 

 

Note: The gif is supposed to be first, but tapa has other plans.

 

There well never be a perfect solution but we've seen enough to know that universal healthcare - and there are several models for this ranging from the UK's NHS to Germany's hybrid system - is the most cost effective, humane way to address the issue.

 

The root issue with healthcare is we have created a society tailor made for awful health outcomes. First world countries don't have better health outcomes than us just because they have universal healthcare, though that's obviously part of it. They don't subsidize an awful diet to the extent we do. They don't prioritize profits for pharma over affordable drugs the way we do. They don't have awful land use and housing policy that encourages a whole range of bad health outcomes the way we do. They don't let poverty become a life crushing burden for those at the bottom of the ladder the way we do.

 

Can do whatever you want with healthcare, and I'm very pro-universal coverage, but we're never solving the problem until we address the above.

 

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

37 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

 

Note: The gif is supposed to be first, but tapa has other plans.

 

There well never be a perfect solution but we've seen enough to know that universal healthcare - and there are several models for this ranging from the UK's NHS to Germany's hybrid system - is the most cost effective, humane way to address the issue.

 

The root issue with healthcare is we have created a society tailor made for awful health outcomes. First world countries don't have better health outcomes than us just because they have universal healthcare, though that's obviously part of it. They don't subsidize an awful diet to the extent we do. They don't prioritize profits for pharma over affordable drugs the way we do. They don't have awful land use and housing policy that encourages a whole range of bad health outcomes the way we do. They don't let poverty become a life crushing burden for those at the bottom of the ladder the way we do.

 

Can do whatever you want with healthcare, and I'm very pro-universal coverage, but we're never solving the problem until we address the above.

 

This gets to the heart of why I’m a conservative (and probably why you aren’t) I think the system fundamentally works about as well as it can, and I fear the law of u intended consequences way more than your run of the mill progressive voter. It’s not that I don’t want everyone to have nice things and the best outcome, it’s I’m worried about throwing the baby out with the bath water and harming the system in some way and making it worse. If you think you are starting with B+ you have less desire to remake things and bring the potential for C- into play because you are chasing A-  so make all chances minor, incremental and see what happens. 
I have Obama care bronze. It’s shitty coverage. It costs my family 1100 a month, and I get no subsidy. It’s actual coverage that my employer has a better coverage option for $1500 a month- but that’s just bc my employer doesn’t offer shittiest coverage possible. But I’m not mad about it. 

[Dahobbs 17447]

21 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

This gets to the heart of why I’m a conservative (and probably why you aren’t) I think the system fundamentally works about as well as it can

LOL

You're conservative because you don't live in reality. It isn't a good system. It isn't even a decent system. It is a horrible system. Other systems work better. Our system could work better if we just tried. You're afraid to even do that. It is sad. 

Seriously, how pessimistic do you have to be to believe that the wealthiest nation on earth cannot do better than a system that leaves millions without healthcare coverage, results in the greatest cost for healthcare in the developed world, forces many to choose between food/housing and healthcare, is one of the leading causes of personal bankruptcy (if not the leading cause), and provides worse health outcomes than other developed nations?  

Edited September 10, 2020 by Dahobbs

[gmr548 16517]

This gets to the heart of why I’m a conservative (and probably why you aren’t) I think the system fundamentally works about as well as it can, and I fear the law of u intended consequences way more than your run of the mill progressive voter.

I mean yeah if you're saying you think what we have now is about the best we can do then we have nothing to talk about. I don't know how you'd come to that conclusion though.

Suffice it to say that, while I can agree on not letting perfect be the enemy of good (ironically this is often the kind of point used to argue against universal coverage), I do not think we're starting from a B+ to use your grading analogy. Not even close.

[Dahobbs 17447]

5 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

 

 

I mean yeah if you're saying you think what we have now is about the best we can do then we have nothing to talk about. I don't know how you'd come to that conclusion though.

Suffice it to say that, while I can agree on not letting perfect be the enemy of good (ironically this is often the kind of point used to argue against universal coverage), I do not think we're starting from a B+ to use your grading analogy. Not even close.

 

It would be generous to give our current system a D-. If it was taking the SAT, most of its points would come from getting a name (any name) on paper. 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Dahobbs

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

32 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

LOL

You're conservative because you don't live in reality. It isn't a good system. It isn't even a decent system. It is a horrible system. Other systems work better. Our system could work better if we just tried. You're afraid to even do that. It is sad. 

Seriously, how pessimistic do you have to be to believe that the wealthiest nation on earth cannot do better than a system that leaves millions without healthcare coverage, results in the greatest cost for healthcare in the developed world, forces many to choose between food/housing and healthcare, is one of the leading causes of personal bankruptcy (if not the leading cause), and provides worse health outcomes than other developed nations?  

I’m talking about America as a whole here not any one particular aspect of it. 
Also- our innovation and health care results are very good in developing and being cutting edge. Does anyone truly believe we won’t be the one to come up with a Covid vaccine before the rest of the world?  The next break through in experimental drugs?  Cancer treatments,  surgery? Orthopedics? Whatever you want to say we drive innovation in health care and the rest of the world is a free rider in so many ways. That’s a fact and counts in the grading system. 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Wulaw Horn

[Dahobbs 17447]

3 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I’m talking about America as a whole here not any one particular aspect of it. 
Also- our innovation and health care results are very good in developing and being cutting edge. Does anyone truly believe we won’t be the one to come up with a Covid vaccine before the rest pod the world?  The next break through in experimental drugs?  Cancer treatments,  surgery? Orthopedics? Whatever you want to delay we drive innovation in health care and the rest of the world is a free rider in so many ways. That’s a fact and counts in the grading system. 

So, because the freeway works pretty well, we can't risk fixing the giant pothole in the neighborhood road? 

Why are we worried about what our internal changes would do to the rest of the world? If the rest of the world is free-riding us, wouldn't a truly conservative position be to change our system to place America first? And I'm pretty sure hospitals and doctors would love it if they knew that each and every patient they see could actually pay for their services. Private health insurance companies aren't necessary for us to have good doctors and innovative companies. 

[SydneyCarton 47884]

2 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I’m talking about America as a whole here not any one particular aspect of it. 
Also- our innovation and health care results are very good in developing and being cutting edge. Does anyone truly believe we won’t be the one to come up with a Covid vaccine before the rest of the world?  The next break through in experimental drugs?  Cancer treatments,  surgery? Orthopedics? Whatever you want to say we drive innovation in health care and the rest of the world is a free rider in so many ways. That’s a fact and counts in the grading system. 

I dont know who's going to be the guy to tell you that Russia is already claiming a vaccine and China has been testing theirs in their army for a month or two now.

No one argues American innovation, dude. That's part of the problem with only the upper tiers of society getting it. It illustrates just how fucked up the system is, and has the opposite point you're clumsily, desperately clinging to, to wit: America's medical care is ranked 1st in the world. American's access to basic healthcare is ranked 100th in the fucking world. The average fucking croatian gets better medical care than a US rank and file citizen. Do you think the fact that our technology and innovation is tops in the world makes that statistic BETTER, or laughably worse? Because if it's anything other than the latter, you're either an idiot or lying to yourself. 

You might as well be looking at a window to a crowd of sick people and saying "Let them eat cake!" 

Edited September 10, 2020 by SydneyCarton

[Blotto 23434]

3 hours ago, Wulaw Horn said:

Whatever you want to say we drive innovation in health care and the rest of the world is a free rider in so many ways

Please expound on that. How are they free riders. Are you suggesting that American pharma and medical device companies must give away the results of their innovation at no cost? I was not aware of that. 

In the case of US company Pfizer, over half of their revenue comes from outside of the US. 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Blotto

[Biff Tannen 45499]

Health care talk in the Senate thread not going away.

[Hank Scorpio 17723]

All those people who can’t afford or have to ration insulin due to its astronomical cost compared to the rest of the developed world should be happy to sacrifice their health so that massive pharmaceutical companies can create cutting edge treatments for rare diseases that cost $750,000 per dose. God bless America. 

Edited September 10, 2020 by Hank Scorpio

[Wulaw Horn 18981]

2 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

I dont know who's going to be the guy to tell you that Russia is already claiming a vaccine and China has been testing theirs in their army for a month or two now.

No one argues American innovation, dude. That's part of the problem with only the upper tiers of society getting it. It illustrates just how fucked up the system is, and has the opposite point you're clumsily, desperately clinging to, to wit: America's medical care is ranked 1st in the world. American's access to basic healthcare is ranked 100th in the fucking world. The average fucking croatian gets better medical care than a US rank and file citizen. Do you think the fact that our technology and innovation is tops in the world makes that statistic BETTER, or laughably worse? Because if it's anything other than the latter, you're either an idiot or lying to yourself. 

You might as well be looking at a window to a crowd of sick people and saying "Let them eat cake!" 

That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying is that we develop drugs for the world bc there’s a pot at the end of the rainbow and companies are incentivized to do so. What if we do away with that ability- and our R&D drops to the level of Europe or Canada?  They can do what they do bc we are doing the heavy lifting of innovating. What I’m saying is that reworking our heath system could kill that innovation. Should we do that anyway?  Maybe!  But there’s going to be costs and trade offs. 
Same with immigration. 
same with defense

same with a shitload of other stuff- we are paying a huge burden that other countries are not, and if we don’t, what happens?  I don’t know and neither do you. I’m admiring it though and you aren’t. You are hand waiving it away. I’m not even saying we shouldn’t do whatever you want to do- I’m just saying there absolutely will be costs people haven’t factored in. That’s it. 
I’m not making policy arguments. I’m saying it’s an absurdly complex eco system and if you think making changes in one spot won’t lead to downstream issues elsewhere you aren’t being honest with yourself. That’s it. 

[Dahobbs 17447]

2 minutes ago, Wulaw Horn said:

I’m not making policy arguments. I’m saying it’s an absurdly complex eco system and if you think making changes in one spot won’t lead to downstream issues elsewhere you aren’t being honest with yourself. That’s it. 

You're scared to even have a conversation with yourself about changing anything. It is pathetic.