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Innocent New York man billed $4,600 for police rectal probe

Victorious1

By Victorious1
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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105787

Posted
Posted
2 minutes ago, Victorious1 said:

drugs, or no drugs, we're going in...

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46637634 

That stuff has happened before. 

And my thought has always been pretty simple: sue the FUCK out of the hospital for malpractice.  They performed a medical procedure without patient consent.  That's a slam-dunk.  And establish early on, as a matter of law, that a "warrant" doesn't create either 1) an OBLIGATION on the hospital (you can't order a medical professional to perform a procedure), or 2) patient consent.

If I were representing a hospital in these situations, our policy would be simple.  We will do such procedures only with patient consent.  If you get a warrant to go up his ass, GREAT -- take him outta here, and crawl up his ass all you want.  But we aren't going to do it for you.  Because we don't have the patient's consent.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105787

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

Thread title is a bit misleading. Innocent of having drugs in his butt, yes. But he had drugs in his car, fought the officers during the arrest, and seemingly would be a quality player in the local recidivist fantasy league.

Doesn't matter.  This isn't about whether the warrant was proper, or whether he was a bad guy.  I'm talking about a private medical enterprise, including a licensed physician, performing surgery on a man without his consent.  They shouldn't do that.  Ever.

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futureman

futureman 22566

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Doesn't matter.  This isn't about whether the warrant was proper, or whether he was a bad guy.  I'm talking about a private medical enterprise, including a licensed physician, performing surgery on a man without his consent.  They shouldn't do that.  Ever.

surgery?  a finger in the ass isn’t surgery.  and criminals do hide shit in their ass sometimes.  this particular criminal gave indications that he was hiding shit in his ass, on top of being a social parasite and having a very unfavorable disposition.  

and then this quote: “Doctors initially refused to perform the procedure, until advised by a hospital lawyer that Mr Jackson did not have a legal right to refuse.”

hospital lawyer?  sounds like he’s legit.  is he wrong or are you wrong?  

and also, fuck that guy.  he’s a piece of shit, the bill was dropped, and he’ll probably sue and win money.  social parasite.  fuck him.

 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105787

Posted
Posted
Just now, futureman said:

surgery?  a finger in the ass isn’t surgery.  and criminals do hide shit in their ass sometimes.  this particular criminal gave indications that he was hiding shit in his ass, on top of being a social parasite and having a very unfavorable disposition.  

and then this quote: “Doctors initially refused to perform the procedure, until advised by a hospital lawyer that Mr Jackson did not have a legal right to refuse.”

hospital lawyer?  sounds like he’s legit.  is he wrong or are you wrong?  

and also, fuck that guy.  he’s a piece of shit, the bill was dropped, and he’ll probably sue and win money.  social parasite.  fuck him.

 

If I'm the hospital lawyer, I don't give a shit if he does or doesn't have a legal right to refuse.  My hospital isn't going to put itself at risk for your constitutionally-iffy practice (and it is NOT clearly established -- this was more than a finger up his ass.  Significantly more).  Our practice is simple: patient consent, or no procedure. The hospital is under NO legal obligation to perform the procedure.  Absent such obligation, no fucking way should they do it.

And here's an important fact: constitutional law and related matters aren't built on fact-patterns that involve little old ladies on their way to church.  They are built on folks who are probably less-than-savory in their life choices.  Doesn't matter if he's a good guy or bad guy -- the constitution is what it is, and patient consent is what it is.

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futureman

futureman 22566

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

If I'm the hospital lawyer, I don't give a shit if he does or doesn't have a legal right to refuse.  My hospital isn't going to put itself at risk for your constitutionally-iffy practice (and it is NOT clearly established -- this was more than a finger up his ass.  Significantly more).  Our practice is simple: patient consent, or no procedure. The hospital is under NO legal obligation to perform the procedure.  Absent such obligation, no fucking way should they do it.

And here's an important fact: constitutional law and related matters aren't built on fact-patterns that involve little old ladies on their way to church.  They are built on folks who are probably less-than-savory in their life choices.  Doesn't matter if he's a good guy or bad guy -- the constitution is what it is, and patient consent is what it is.

I hear you, brother.  amen.

but, you’re not a hospital lawyer.  and the guy from the article is.  so I’m inclined to believe him unless you can provide your own hospital lawyer credentials or the journalist somehow misreported his quote.  you also say the basis for this situation is not clearly established but you did so without providing any validation for your claim save for frothy emotional appeals.  the hospital lawyer, on the other hand, says it’s all above board.  a hospital wouldn’t hire no dope lawyer.  and you post on surly most of the day.  I’m gonna side with the big time lawyer here. 

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BottleRocket

BottleRocket 655

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, futureman said:

surgery?  a finger in the ass isn’t surgery.  and criminals do hide shit in their ass sometimes.  this particular criminal gave indications that he was hiding shit in his ass, on top of being a social parasite and having a very unfavorable disposition.  

and then this quote: “Doctors initially refused to perform the procedure, until advised by a hospital lawyer that Mr Jackson did not have a legal right to refuse.”

hospital lawyer?  sounds like he’s legit.  is he wrong or are you wrong?  

and also, fuck that guy.  he’s a piece of shit, the bill was dropped, and he’ll probably sue and win money.  social parasite.  fuck him.

 

 

2pgwdf.jpg

 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105787

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, futureman said:

I hear you, brother.  amen.

but, you’re not a hospital lawyer.  and the guy from the article is.  so I’m inclined to believe him unless you can provide your own hospital lawyer credentials or the journalist somehow misreported his quote.  you also say the basis for this situation is not clearly established but you did so without providing any validation for your claim save for frothy emotional appeals.  the hospital lawyer, on the other hand, says it’s all above board.  a hospital wouldn’t hire no dope lawyer.  and you post on surly most of the day.  I’m gonna side with the big time lawyer here. 

I've represented more than one hospital.

I will confess, though, my area of practice didn't involve the intricacies of non-consensual rectal invasion (a subject matter in which my Surly experience gives me something of an edge, I would contend).  

AND....these "hospital lawyers" have made that call the wrong way more than once, and the hospital has ended up writing checks to folks.  The dynamic in play here is the relationship with the local cops and even fear of local law enforcement (see examples of them threatening to arrest health professionals for not following their orders).  And if I'm a doc there, I'm sure as shit not performing a procedure on someone without his consent.  You want it done, Deputy Fife, you can go get your own doc to do it.  I won't do it.

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Constant

Constant 6817

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I've represented more than one hospital.

I will confess, though, my area of practice didn't involve the intricacies of non-consensual rectal invasion (a subject matter in which my Surly experience gives me something of an edge, I would contend).  

AND....these "hospital lawyers" have made that call the wrong way more than once, and the hospital has ended up writing checks to folks.  The dynamic in play here is the relationship with the local cops and even fear of local law enforcement (see examples of them threatening to arrest health professionals for not following their orders).  And if I'm a doc there, I'm sure as shit not performing a procedure on someone without his consent.  You want it done, Deputy Fife, you can go get your own doc to do it.  I won't do it.

Just curious, do you feel the same way about blood draws on a DWI refusal?

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futureman

futureman 22566

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Posted
20 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Private hospitals and doctors shouldn't do those either. 

hypothetical: bozo johnson has a 12-pack and a few xanax in him.  he blasts through a red light and mows down your whole immediate and extended family.  all of them dead.  you’re the only flickering candle left of your bloodline.  the thing is, bozo can handle his shit and act straight even when he’s fucked up.  and so after bulldozing your family tree he’s stayin tight lipped and refuses a breath test.  without proof of intoxication he could get away with murdering your whole goddamn family.  meanwhile you’re catatonic, the police and doctors can’t get you to respond.  you’re in shock.  you can’t believe everyone close to you is dead.  life will never be the same again.  and bozo is about to get away with it.

...

in this situation, would you support bozo having blood drawn without his consent?  answer honestly.

 

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17840

Posted
Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, futureman said:

hypothetical: bozo johnson has a 12-pack and a few xanax in him.  he blasts through a red light and mows down your whole immediate and extended family.  all of them dead.  you’re the only flickering candle left of your bloodline.  the thing is, bozo can handle his shit and act straight even when he’s fucked up.  and so after bulldozing your family tree he’s stayin tight lipped and refuses a breath test.  without proof of intoxication he could get away with murdering your whole goddamn family.  meanwhile you’re catatonic, the police and doctors can’t get you to respond.  you’re in shock.  you can’t believe everyone close to you is dead.  life will never be the same again.  and bozo is about to get away with it.

...

in this situation, would you support bozo having blood drawn without his consent?  answer honestly.

 

From a private hospital or doctor, no, I think that is inappropriate both ethically and legally. The cops can do the blood draw. 

N.B. I too have represented hospitals and doctors, but not in this context. 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105787

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Posted
51 minutes ago, Constant said:

Just curious, do you feel the same way about blood draws on a DWI refusal?

That ship has sailed, the SCOTUS has spoken.

My issue is with the state supposedly requiring a private actor to do their work for them.

14 minutes ago, futureman said:

hypothetical: bozo johnson has a 12-pack and a few xanax in him.  he blasts through a red light and mows down your whole immediate and extended family.  all of them dead.  you’re the only flickering candle left of your bloodline.  the thing is, bozo can handle his shit and act straight even when he’s fucked up.  and so after bulldozing your family tree he’s stayin tight lipped and refuses a breath test.  without proof of intoxication he could get away with murdering your whole goddamn family.  meanwhile you’re catatonic, the police and doctors can’t get you to respond.  you’re in shock.  you can’t believe everyone close to you is dead.  life will never be the same again.  and bozo is about to get away with it.

...

in this situation, would you support bozo having blood drawn without his consent?  answer honestly.

 

By a gov't-employed phlebotomist, sure.  Telling Dr. Jones at the hospital that he MUST do so, even without patient consent?  Nope.

If the gov't wants to perform a medical procedure, and has jumped through the requisite legal hoops to do so, have at it.  But you can't draft me and make me/my hospital/physicians that I employ do so.

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ztejas

ztejas 43787

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, futureman said:

and bozo is about to get away with it.

Sorry, what is he about to get away with? The DWI? That's probably the least of his concerns considering the fact that in your example he's going to be charged with multiple counts of criminally negligent manslaughter. 

But I'm sure he'll be super happy to not have that DWI on his record while he's doing 30 years in the pen. 

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futureman

futureman 22566

Posted
Posted
49 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Sorry, what is he about to get away with? The DWI? That's probably the least of his concerns considering the fact that in your example he's going to be charged with multiple counts of criminally negligent manslaughter. 

But I'm sure he'll be super happy to not have that DWI on his record while he's doing 30 years in the pen. 

ok, well, you’re obviously not a lawyer.  next?

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ztejas

ztejas 43787

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, futureman said:

ok, well, you’re obviously not a lawyer.  next?

I don't have to be a lawyer to know that running a red light (which is illegal) and then killing multiple people because of it (more illegal) will land you in prison being drunk or not. I don't know what the sentence would be. It sure as shit wouldn't be "getting away with it".

Depends on the state, but best case scenario that's, what, a case or two AT LEAST of vehicular manslaughter? And that would only happen if the plaintiff's lawyer was a retarded monkey eating his own shit in front of the judge. I doubt you'd have to draw blood to assume the guy was hammered and be at the mercy of the judge's discretion accordingly. 

But if you want to go run red lights sober killing people in the process and see what happens go for it!

TLDR your analogy fucking sucks

 

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17840

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, GopherRock said:

How the hell does the guy not have a legal right to refuse?

They had a warrant. He could challenge the warrant, and maybe could win, but unfortunately you usually don't get to do that until after the fact. But the private hospital and doctors don't have to carry out the procedure, and ethically they should be barred from doing so. I'm pretty sure he would win a malpractice case. 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105787

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

They had a warrant. He could challenge the warrant, and maybe could win, but unfortunately you usually don't get to do that until after the fact. But the private hospital and doctors don't have to carry out the procedure, and ethically they should be barred from doing so. I'm pretty sure he would win a malpractice case. 

And that's the entirety of my original point.

A private hospital and doctor are not arms of the state executing a warrant.  They are private actors, conducting a medical procedure without the patient's consent (oh, and you wanna know how it's a slam-dunk that it wasn't a gov't action, but rather a private medical procedure?  THEY BILLED HIM FOR IT).  That's a big problem for them.

Edited by Brisketexan
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futureman

futureman 22566

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Posted
2 hours ago, BurntEyes said:

You addressed it earlier, but I think it very important to continue to note pressures that have been caught on video of police over stepping the Constitution and pressuring the fuck out of medical staff to force them to acquiesce.

So not only are terroristic threats being deployed but in some instances out right assault by police to force unconstitutional behavior.

All in the name of the war on drugs.

I'm still flummoxed that so many people can't see the clear flaw in the logic of support for these activities and violations to "make people safer".

 

oh, I’m sure after the 100th asshole you came across that drove drunk and killed someone’s wife and daughter and then fought you while you tried to administer a breathalyzer so you’d have evidence to prosecute him... after dealing with that so many times, sure, I understand getting a little hot under the collar when you know you can’t get a DUI conviction without breath, blood, or urine and you have a warrant to obtain it and nurse focker won’t cooperate.  so focker is a SJW and takes a stand, and the asshole skates the charges and gets to go on drinking at bars while mom and daughter are getting devoured by maggots.  

 

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futureman

futureman 22566

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Yeah man, whatever the fuck you just said.

well I hope when paco jimenez plows through your wife’s front end on a sunday morning and leaves her dead on the side of the road that the nurse at the hospital wherever they take him knocks his ass out and draws that blood so he can go to prison.  

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105787

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Posted
well I hope when paco jimenez plows through your wife’s front end on a sunday morning and leaves her dead on the side of the road that the nurse at the hospital wherever they take him knocks his ass out and draws that blood so he can go to prison.  

Got it. As long as the crime is emotional enough, the constitution and common law don’t matter.
Ok, cool.
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ztejas

ztejas 43787

Posted
Posted

@futureman dude you might be the most retarded person on this entire site and that is a pretty fucking high bar to set.

You have yet to make any attempt to respond to my absolute crucifixion of the dumb-as-retarded-monkey-brain shit example you attempted to lay out to prove the point of consent to giving blood to prove/disprove intoxication.

Beyond that, instead of replying to try and defend yourself here, on this thread, you go find me on another thread and attack me on a completely unrelated note which leads to a fucking admin getting involved to tell me to take it elsewhere.

Either you've had a quite a few too many adult beverages tonight or you are without doubt one of the dumbest people I've ever had the misfortune of dealing with in my life. 

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futureman

futureman 22566

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:


Got it. As long as the crime is emotional enough, the constitution and common law don’t matter.
Ok, cool.

uh, I thought it was you who was being emotional about the perp’s rights?  hospital lawyer knows the law and hospital lawyer said it was cool.  

but emotional brisket says “nay!”

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futureman

futureman 22566

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, ztejas said:

@futureman dude you might be the most retarded person on this entire site and that is a pretty fucking high bar to set.

You have yet to make any attempt to respond to my absolute crucifixion of the dumb-as-retarded-monkey-brain shit example you attempted to lay out to prove the point of consent to giving blood to prove/disprove intoxication.

Beyond that, instead of replying to try and defend yourself here, on this thread, you go find me on another thread and attack me on a completely unrelated note which leads to a fucking admin getting involved to tell me to take it elsewhere.

Either you've had a quite a few too many adult beverages tonight or you are without doubt one of the dumbest people I've ever had the misfortune of dealing with in my life. 

this is awesome.  now tell me about recruiting. 

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 105787

Posted
Posted
uh, I thought it was you who was being emotional about the perp’s rights?  hospital lawyer knows the law and hospital lawyer said it was cool.  
but emotional brisket says “nay!”

Huh? Are you okay?
My comment was literally all about the legal duties and risks of the hospital/doc in such cases. Hospital lawyer was wrong.
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futureman

futureman 22566

Posted
Posted
Just now, Brisketexan said:


Huh? Are you okay?
My comment was literally all about the legal duties and risks of the hospital/doc in such cases. Hospital lawyer was wrong.

I’m fine.  but a legitimate hospital lawyer was quoted in an article in direct opposition to your claim.  and you’re just a fragile prick on surly.  I’m going with hospital lawyer. 

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ztejas

ztejas 43787

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, futureman said:

this is awesome.  now tell me about recruiting. 

I don't think you know a shithole in the ground from your fucking sock drawer. Pick any topic on the planet and I could probably tell you more than you already know. 

Honestly I don't want to trend too far in this direction because it seems like you're going through some shit or blackout drunk or maybe both. I hope you find the help you need and I am never someone to judge anybody regardless of what they have done. Just please don't go off of the deep end about some stupid message board shit. Everyone here is an asshole, that doesn't mean we want you to be dust in the wind.

No hard feelings my man. Sleep this one off. 

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13173

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, futureman said:

hypothetical: bozo johnson has a 12-pack and a few xanax in him.  he blasts through a red light and mows down your whole immediate and extended family.  all of them dead.  you’re the only flickering candle left of your bloodline.  the thing is, bozo can handle his shit and act straight even when he’s fucked up.  and so after bulldozing your family tree he’s stayin tight lipped and refuses a breath test.  without proof of intoxication he could get away with murdering your whole goddamn family.  meanwhile you’re catatonic, the police and doctors can’t get you to respond.  you’re in shock.  you can’t believe everyone close to you is dead.  life will never be the same again.  and bozo is about to get away with it.

...

in this situation, would you support bozo having blood drawn without his consent?  answer honestly.

 

Not by a private hospital. It isn’t the hospitals job to do the police work.

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13173

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, futureman said:

oh, I’m sure after the 100th asshole you came across that drove drunk and killed someone’s wife and daughter and then fought you while you tried to administer a breathalyzer so you’d have evidence to prosecute him... after dealing with that so many times, sure, I understand getting a little hot under the collar when you know you can’t get a DUI conviction without breath, blood, or urine and you have a warrant to obtain it and nurse focker won’t cooperate.  so focker is a SJW and takes a stand, and the asshole skates the charges and gets to go on drinking at bars while mom and daughter are getting devoured by maggots.  

 

10-the-big-lebowski-quotes.gif

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immortal13

immortal13 4059

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

That stuff has happened before. 

And my thought has always been pretty simple: sue the FUCK out of the hospital for malpractice.  They performed a medical procedure without patient consent.  That's a slam-dunk.  And establish early on, as a matter of law, that a "warrant" doesn't create either 1) an OBLIGATION on the hospital (you can't order a medical professional to perform a procedure), or 2) patient consent.

If I were representing a hospital in these situations, our policy would be simple.  We will do such procedures only with patient consent.  If you get a warrant to go up his ass, GREAT -- take him outta here, and crawl up his ass all you want.  But we aren't going to do it for you.  Because we don't have the patient's consent.

Exactly. Since when are the police in control of health care providers? They should told them to fuck off and do it themselves.

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Bookman

Bookman 4731

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

That stuff has happened before. 

And my thought has always been pretty simple: sue the FUCK out of the hospital for malpractice.  They performed a medical procedure without patient consent.  That's a slam-dunk.  And establish early on, as a matter of law, that a "warrant" doesn't create either 1) an OBLIGATION on the hospital (you can't order a medical professional to perform a procedure), or 2) patient consent.

If I were representing a hospital in these situations, our policy would be simple.  We will do such procedures only with patient consent.  If you get a warrant to go up his ass, GREAT -- take him outta here, and crawl up his ass all you want.  But we aren't going to do it for you.  Because we don't have the patient's consent.

https://www.cnn.com/2014/01/16/justice/new-mexico-search-settlement/index.html

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