The Declining Wealth of the Bottom 90%

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

3 hours ago, RPM said:

siap but welders make bank. It's a wandering job, but steady and pays extremely well. My BIL went from doing power plant refits to owning his own fabrication business building oilfield equipment. His son is now following in his footsteps doing power plant refits pulling down around $75K/yr. Downside is all the time away from home.

The contract guy we use at our ranch has his own truck rig and makes probably $200k a year.  He was making 6 figures in the early 90s.  He’s an awesome welder.  Our ranch hands can weld the simple stuff well.  But this man is an artist.  

[ChiTownDoc 21,102]

38 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

The contract guy we use at our ranch has his own truck rig and makes probably $200k a year.  He was making 6 figures in the early 90s.  He’s an awesome welder.  Our ranch hands can weld the simple stuff well.  But this man is an artist.  

Yep.  Good welders make more than your average doctor.  And they don’t go 300k in the hole during school while spending a decade after high school to get there...

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

4 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

Yep.  Good welders make more than your average doctor.  And they don’t go 300k in the hole during school while spending a decade after high school to get there...

And ya blow a weld ya move on.  There's not malpractice insurance like a doc has to carry and you get to work outside at different places all the time .

[ChiTownDoc 21,102]

10 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

And ya blow a weld ya move on.  There's not malpractice insurance like a doc has to carry and you get to work outside at different places all the time .

I really think if you don't love medicine, you shouldn't do it anymore.  I've sold out to the PE route and don't 'need' to see patients (for money) anymore but I love it.  When people say 'thank you' in the business world, they mean 'fuck you' just as often...a genuine thank you goes a long ways. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

14 minutes ago, ChiTownDoc said:

I really think if you don't love medicine, you shouldn't do it anymore.  I've sold out to the PE route and don't 'need' to see patients (for money) anymore but I love it.  When people say 'thank you' in the business world, they mean 'fuck you' just as often...a genuine thank you goes a long ways. 

Yeah, you shouldn't work at a career if you don't enjoy it, if at all possible. I know that's just not realistic for everyone though.   I practice architecture, and love what I do. 

 I've taken some welding courses at the local HS, to be able to work on my old car. Welding is a friggin' blast, and you can make serious coin, if you have a good work ethic of course. I could see myself in that field.  My problem is I'd start creating shit that was more art than work.

[F250 28,691]

5 hours ago, NBMisha said:

And, repeat, folks do not react according to class lines any more, but according to group identity.  Drumph was the first white politician to get this and act on it.  Economic policy pleasure or pain will have only highly muted effect at the ground level.  Emotional messages are the new coin of the political realm.  Emotional messages made real with horrific actions are best.

 

I wonder what a thoughtful, morally purposeful approach, based on this paradigm, would be?

Exploiting racial tensions in order to mask class strife is an old and fairly common practice. The big Populist movement in the late 1800s was countered through race riots and the propagation of white supremacy. It didn't take a lot of effort to breakup the politically aligned poor whites and blacks that were a threat to the Republican and Democrat parties. Kleetus just needed a white robe and to be told he was better than his black neighbors, so he could ignore the fact they both shared the same economic hardships.

 

 

 

[ChiTownDoc 21,102]

6 minutes ago, F250 said:

Exploiting racial tensions in order to mask class strife is an old and fairly common practice. The big Populist movement in the late 1800s was countered through race riots and the propagation of white supremacy. It didn't take a lot of effort to breakup the politically aligned poor whites and blacks that were a threat to the Republican and Democrat parties. Kleetus just needed a white robe and to be told he was better than his black neighbors, so he could ignore the fact they both shared the same economic hardships.

 

 

 

This shit is so true.  Look at Trump’s war on the browns.  He can’t get on his knees fast enough for rich brown people (Saudis) but fools the rubes into thinking they’re better than the colored folk.  Rubes gonna be rubes.  

[Fudge Nuggets 19,151]

20 hours ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

What would Midland-Odessa be?   I’m having a hard time with that.  

Bakersfield, CA.  Hot, dry, dusty oil fields.

[ADHD 28]

Yes. Exactly. Bakersfield CA is the one of the worst places on Earth. I think HST said as much in Fear & Loathing in LV.

[happyfunball 481]

16 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

The contract guy we use at our ranch has his own truck rig and makes probably $200k a year.  He was making 6 figures in the early 90s.  He’s an awesome welder.  Our ranch hands can weld the simple stuff well.  But this man is an artist.  

Deep water welders were making just north of 100K in early 2000s but lifespan was around 40. 

Anyone citing welders vs doctor pay is bs. Follows Republican lies that that poor people are lazy rather than they gutted the middle class 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,092]

On 12/21/2018 at 9:47 AM, Larry T. Spider said:

Agree and I’m in education. In Texas I rarely see anybody retiring before 60 unless they have a rich spouse. If you teach from 25 to 60 in Texas you will get roughly 80% of the average of your best 5 years. Not too bad but you have to remember no SS in most cases. 

Yes, No SS, but you also did not pay in.  I have friends who are teachers who are outraged they do not get SS.  I asked them if they paid in, they said, no, but they should get it anyway.  Lulz.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,092]

On 12/20/2018 at 6:40 PM, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

Since 1979, the share of total personal income going to the bottom 90% of workers has fallen from 58% to 46.6%. The fall has been fairly steady, with brief respites:






My question for the board is: how long can this trend continue before anarchy is loosed upon the land?

Is this Nominal Wages or Real Wages?  If this is nominal wages, this is bleak, but I guarantee the real wages graph looks even worse.  

[Incredulity 11,555]

https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/tables/time-series/historical-income-people/p01ar.xls

2017 per capita wages are over 50% higher than 1979 per capita wages.(in 2017 dollars)

So the bottom 90% are getting a smaller piece of a much larger pie. Not sure that is the path to “anarchy being loosed”.

I am not clear if they are included, but if not, all transfer payments should be included in the OP calculation.

[Bozo_Casanova 26,284]

You're looking at the wrong data. Per capita income has risen because that the pie has gotten larger, but that doesn't mean the real wages of the bottom 90% have risen much. 

Here's a better and more specific look from Pew Research.

[Larry T. Spider 1,741]

2 hours ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Yes, No SS, but you also did not pay in.  I have friends who are teachers who are outraged they do not get SS.  I asked them if they paid in, they said, no, but they should get it anyway.  Lulz.

I paid in on every other job I’ve had and on my second job. I’ll still take trs but I’ve been  paying into SS since the day I turned 16.

[BrickHorn 18,194]

6 hours ago, happyfunball said:

Deep water welders were making just north of 100K in early 2000s but lifespan was around 40. 

Anyone citing welders vs doctor pay is bs. Follows Republican lies that that poor people are lazy rather than they gutted the middle class 

If everyone in the Bottom 90% would get up off the couch and start welding, they’d all be as rich as doctors!

[ADHD 28]

5 Billion bucks might be available for bids on a steel shank wall! Independent welders gonna get rich. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,414]

Every sign is that the rich will continue to get richer at a level we haven’t seen in the last hundred years or so.  And the poor will make up a larger percent of the population.  I don’t think you will find anyone that will say that trend  is good.    However the only solution is massive govt forced wealth redistribution and most seem against that as being inherently unfair to the rich.  

America wont be leading the world in deploying an universal basic income.

american children will need to understand that a middle to upper middle class lifestyle requires starting at a young age.  There are fewer and fewer jobs that pay well with low education.     But even take the welder job that we’re discussing.  I Doubt you can go from starting a welding 101 class to earning 100k in a year.   You still need a to build your education and experience which takes commitment.

[Incredulity 11,555]

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

You're looking at the wrong data. Per capita income has risen because that the pie has gotten larger, but that doesn't mean the real wages of the bottom 90% have risen much. 

Here's a better and more specific look from Pew Research.

The per capita data I posted was adjusted to current dollars

 

Real wage calculations are subject to debate in regards to the correct inflation adjustment.

Edited December 23, 2018 by Incredulity

[Foosters 17,734]

19 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Every sign is that the rich will continue to get richer at a level we haven’t seen in the last hundred years or so.  And the poor will make up a larger percent of the population.  I don’t think you will find anyone that will say that trend  is good.    However the only solution is massive govt forced wealth redistribution and most seem against that as being inherently unfair to the rich.  

America wont be leading the world in deploying an universal basic income.

american children will need to understand that a middle to upper middle class lifestyle requires starting at a young age.  There are fewer and fewer jobs that pay well with low education.     But even take the welder job that we’re discussing.  I Doubt you can go from starting a welding 101 class to earning 100k in a year.   You still need a to build your education and experience which takes commitment.

The US is now towards the bottom of the list when it comes to socio-economic mobility among developed nations. If you want to improve your lot in life, I'm afraid you've picked a difficult place to try and attain it.

[David Dennison 18,660]

40 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Every sign is that the rich will continue to get richer at a level we haven’t seen in the last hundred years or so.  And the poor will make up a larger percent of the population.  I don’t think you will find anyone that will say that trend  is good.    However the only solution is massive govt forced wealth redistribution and most seem against that as being inherently unfair to the rich.  

America wont be leading the world in deploying an universal basic income.

american children will need to understand that a middle to upper middle class lifestyle requires starting at a young age.  There are fewer and fewer jobs that pay well with low education.     But even take the welder job that we’re discussing.  I Doubt you can go from starting a welding 101 class to earning 100k in a year.   You still need a to build your education and experience which takes commitment.

The problem with Americans is that they don't realize that the massive government forced wealth redistribution that has been going on since the beginning of the industrial revolution is also inherently unfair to the working class and poor. 

[Incredulity 11,555]

21 minutes ago, Foosters said:

The US is now towards the bottom of the list when it comes to socio-economic mobility among developed nations. If you want to improve your lot in life, I'm afraid you've picked a difficult place to try and attain it.

According to the Economic Policy Institute( same as OP).  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Policy_Institute

It is affiliated with the labor movement,^[3][4][5] and is usually described as presenting a liberal^[6]viewpoint on public policy issues.

[David Dennison 18,660]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

According to the Economic Policy Institute( same as OP).  

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_Policy_Institute

It is affiliated with the labor movement,^[3][4][5] and is usually described as presenting a liberal^[6]viewpoint on public policy issues.

Are you doing better than your parents?

[Bozo_Casanova 26,284]

The per capita data I posted was adjusted to current dollars
 
Real wage calculations are subject to debate in regards to the correct inflation adjustment.

Imagine being this obtuse

[Incredulity 11,555]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Are you doing better than your parents?

Yes. 

Yourself?

[David Dennison 18,660]

1 minute ago, Incredulity said:

Yes. 

Yourself?

No.

[SaucyJack 3,487]

Depends a lot on what your parents’  annual income was/is.

[David Dennison 18,660]

Just now, SaucyJack said:

Depends a lot on what your parents’  annual income was/is.

Or wealth. 

[SaucyJack 3,487]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Or wealth. 

 Absolutely.  I am acquainted with persons that are doing much better than their  parents. However, it will be very difficult for these persons’ children to surpass  their current lifestyle.  

 I get the gist of your question, though. 

[horn4life 3,755]

Here is the political problem in a nutshell, there are a shit ton of RiCH people that are able to create income without baying any income or extremely little income tax.  What this does is shift nearly ALL the burden for paying for Social Security, Medicare, and funding the government onto wage workers.  If you receive a paycheck it's that FICA box.  It's basically right now 6.2% for both the employer and the employee.  So 6.2% of every dollar earned in the employee's income is put aside to fund the BIG areas of expense that NO politician wants to touch.

At the same time the very wealthy have found in the GOP, a group of folks that wants the check for their campaign far more than they want a fiscally sound country. For the super Uber Rich spending a few hundred million over time to recieve billions in tax cuts is a no brainer.  So The GOP rewards their "investors" with lower and lower taxes, making their contribution to the expense pies smaller and smaller and smaller.  The tax cuts given to wealthy GOP "investors" never, ever, ever have paid for themselves at any point in time. EVER! So the costs must be shifted onto the masses of middle and low wage earners.

The burden shifts to middle and lower wage earners has also accelerated in other areas which used to receive a larger contribution from tax evenue streams. For example educaton costs have skyrocketed as the GOP took over State legislatures the last 20 years. Those dollars no longer dedicated in investing in helping the middle/lower class raise themselves into higher income earning via a college education is no longer a worthy investment in the future.  Instead the future must be mortaged via student loans, for the middle and lower class wage earners.

The bottom line is that Increasingly annual increase in wealth is NOT defined as "income" and thus there is no 6.2% contribution from those increasing their wealth the most.  The taxes to pay for healthcare, social security, and infrastructure receive vastly smaller porportional contributions from the wealthy. In essence they do not pay their fare share, when compared to those wage earners funding our government programs.  There is no opportunity for wage earners to shift their incomes into say daividend checks that do not incur FICA taxes. So the playing field is unfair.

 

Edited December 23, 2018 by horn4life

[Parliament 14,138]

...there are a shit ton of RiCH people that are able to create income without baying any income or extremely little income tax. 

I hear this quite often. Not saying I disagree with you, but I'd like to know more about how they manage to do this. I wanna know it isn't a straw man..

[happyfunball 481]

3 minutes ago, Parliament said:

 

I hear this quite often. Not saying I disagree with you, but I'd like to know more about how they manage to do this. I wanna know it isn't a straw man..

 

I know many families that foundations only exist to support their kids lifestyle

[TwiceHorn 31,283]

16 minutes ago, happyfunball said:

I know many families that foundations only exist to support their kids lifestyle

While yes there are wealthy investor types that rarely generate income and family offices probably don't generate much income either, distributions are going to be taxed as income, but not wages of course. 

[Parliament 14,138]

Any growth that is retained (not paid out to the rich kids) would no be taxed. But how do you write Paris Hilton a check for her new boob job without incurring at least Capital Gains?

[elfenix 34,171]

Is this Nominal Wages or Real Wages?  If this is nominal wages, this is bleak, but I guarantee the real wages graph looks even worse.  

Doesn't matter since it's a percentage.

[Incredulity 11,555]

6 hours ago, Parliament said:

Any growth that is retained (not paid out to the rich kids) would no be taxed. But how do you write Paris Hilton a check for her new boob job without incurring at least Capital Gains?

Narrator:  You don’t.

[happyfunball 481]

9 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

While yes there are wealthy investor types that rarely generate income and family offices probably don't generate much income either, distributions are going to be taxed as income, but not wages of course. 

Operating expenses not income. The foundation owns the car, house, flight tickets

[G650 14,107]

It's a problem for sure, but not as big as it's made out to be. It only affects .001% of the populace. The estate tax as well is only impacting a microscopically small amount of people.

 

Most of the people in hear saying it's ok though are not in the tax bracket to have any clue.

[SKJ 1,305]

I know we only fuck 10's here, but are we all supposed to be billionaires, too?

[Incredulity 11,555]

17 minutes ago, happyfunball said:

Operating expenses not income. The foundation owns the car, house, flight tickets

Self dealing is not allowed.  There has to be a foundation purpose for operating expenses.  

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/private-foundations/acts-of-self-dealing-by-private-foundation

Now tax laws can be  broken, but its just like any other tax cheat.  

[Dnaguy 11,777]

5 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Self dealing is not allowed.  There has to be a foundation purpose for operating expenses.  

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/private-foundations/acts-of-self-dealing-by-private-foundation

Now tax laws can be  broken, but its just like any other tax cheat.  

“Not allowed.”

Punishable by Presidential electoral win.

[Incredulity 11,555]

1 minute ago, Dnaguy said:

“Not allowed.”

Punishable by Presidential electoral win.

Enforce the laws already on the books.

[G650 14,107]

24 minutes ago, SKJ said:

I know we only fuck 10's here, but are we all supposed to be billionaires, too?

No, quite the opposite is my point. It's just such a random data point that it doesn't matter to the overall picture much. 

[ChickenSandwich 9,798]

20 hours ago, horn4life said:

Here is the political problem in a nutshell, there are a shit ton of RiCH people that are able to create income without baying any income or extremely little income tax.  What this does is shift nearly ALL the burden for paying for Social Security, Medicare, and funding the government onto wage workers.  If you receive a paycheck it's that FICA box.  It's basically right now 6.2% for both the employer and the employee.  So 6.2% of every dollar earned in the employee's income is put aside to fund the BIG areas of expense that NO politician wants to touch.

At the same time the very wealthy have found in the GOP, a group of folks that wants the check for their campaign far more than they want a fiscally sound country. For the super Uber Rich spending a few hundred million over time to recieve billions in tax cuts is a no brainer.  So The GOP rewards their "investors" with lower and lower taxes, making their contribution to the expense pies smaller and smaller and smaller.  The tax cuts given to wealthy GOP "investors" never, ever, ever have paid for themselves at any point in time. EVER! So the costs must be shifted onto the masses of middle and low wage earners.

The burden shifts to middle and lower wage earners has also accelerated in other areas which used to receive a larger contribution from tax evenue streams. For example educaton costs have skyrocketed as the GOP took over State legislatures the last 20 years. Those dollars no longer dedicated in investing in helping the middle/lower class raise themselves into higher income earning via a college education is no longer a worthy investment in the future.  Instead the future must be mortaged via student loans, for the middle and lower class wage earners.

The bottom line is that Increasingly annual increase in wealth is NOT defined as "income" and thus there is no 6.2% contribution from those increasing their wealth the most.  The taxes to pay for healthcare, social security, and infrastructure receive vastly smaller porportional contributions from the wealthy. In essence they do not pay their fare share, when compared to those wage earners funding our government programs.  There is no opportunity for wage earners to shift their incomes into say daividend checks that do not incur FICA taxes. So the playing field is unfair.

 

Bullshit, it’s a 1% problem shared by “both sides”  Democrat run NY has almost completely evaporated their middle class as well as California.  Wake the fuck up  

In 2015 the middle class took home just 13.5 percent of all state income, an anemic figure that's dead last in the nation, underlining why they've been continually priced out of the Big Apple and the American Dream.

But in contrast it's an unprecedented boom time for our top 20 percent of earners, who accounted for a staggering 54.2 percent of all earned income in New York last year.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/new-york-city-middle-class-gone-wealthy.amp

After factoring for costs of living, California is the poorest state in the union. An average of 14 percent of Americans live below the poverty line by census measures. Compare that with the 19 percent of Californians who live below the poverty line and the situation is clear

Despite having just 12 percent of the national population, California represents nearly a third of all Americans on welfare. Federal taxpayers shell out more than half of the $6.7 billion in the California Work Opportunities and Responsibility to Kids program. In Texas, 6 percent of families in poverty receive welfare. In California, the figure is 66 percent. Can you guess where the poverty rate is lower? Not California.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/opinion/finance/412928-middle-class-is-disappearing-in-california-as-wealth-gap-grows%3famp

Both sides are guilty as fuck and it takes some extreme blinders to think otherwise. 

Your team is not the good guy, they have replaced defending the middle class with trickle up poverty and focus on the poor. They have replaced the African American progress with illegal immigrant progress because they now out number the African american population within the United States.  

No one’s hands are clean, and the ability of the Devil to convince the world he doesn’t exsist seems to work well with you. 

Edited December 24, 2018 by ChickenSandwich

[G650 14,107]

No middle class? Sounds like a winner to me.

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

3 minutes ago, G650 said:

No middle class? Sounds like a winner to me.

Oh you bastard...........some of my best friends are middle class.

[ADHD 28]

35 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Bullshit, it’s a 1% problem shared by “both sides”  Democrat run NY has almost completely evaporated their middle class as well as California.  Wake the fuck up  

In 2015 the middle class took home just 13.5 percent of all state income, an anemic figure that's dead last in the nation, underlining why they've been continually priced out of the Big Apple and the American Dream.

But in contrast it's an unprecedented boom time for our top 20 percent of earners, who accounted for a staggering 54.2 percent of all earned income in New York last year.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/new-york-city-middle-class-gone-wealthy.amp

After factoring for costs of living, California is the poorest state in the union. An average of 14 percent of Americans live below the poverty line by census measures. Compare that with the 19 percent of Californians who live below the poverty line and the situation is clear

Despite having just 12 percent of the national population, California represents nearly a third of all Americans on welfare. Federal taxpayers shell out more than half of the $6.7 billion in the California Work Opportunities and Responsibility to Kids program. In Texas, 6 percent of families in poverty receive welfare. In California, the figure is 66 percent. Can you guess where the poverty rate is lower? Not California.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/opinion/finance/412928-middle-class-is-disappearing-in-california-as-wealth-gap-grows%3famp

Both sides are guilty as fuck and it takes some extreme blinders to think otherwise. 

Your team is not the good guy, they have replaced defending the middle class with trickle up poverty and focus on the poor. They have replaced the African American progress with illegal immigrant progress because they now out number the African american population within the United States.  

No one’s hands are clean, and the ability of the Devil to convince the world he doesn’t exsist seems to work well with you. 

The last time there was a rising middle class it was under Clinton.

[ChickenSandwich 9,798]

19 minutes ago, ADHD said:

The last time there was a rising middle class it was under Clinton.

17 years ago. Proving my point. 

[David Dennison 18,660]

1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Bullshit, it’s a 1% problem shared by “both sides”  Democrat run NY has almost completely evaporated their middle class as well as California.  Wake the fuck up  

In 2015 the middle class took home just 13.5 percent of all state income, an anemic figure that's dead last in the nation, underlining why they've been continually priced out of the Big Apple and the American Dream.

But in contrast it's an unprecedented boom time for our top 20 percent of earners, who accounted for a staggering 54.2 percent of all earned income in New York last year.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/new-york-city-middle-class-gone-wealthy.amp

After factoring for costs of living, California is the poorest state in the union. An average of 14 percent of Americans live below the poverty line by census measures. Compare that with the 19 percent of Californians who live below the poverty line and the situation is clear

Despite having just 12 percent of the national population, California represents nearly a third of all Americans on welfare. Federal taxpayers shell out more than half of the $6.7 billion in the California Work Opportunities and Responsibility to Kids program. In Texas, 6 percent of families in poverty receive welfare. In California, the figure is 66 percent. Can you guess where the poverty rate is lower? Not California.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/opinion/finance/412928-middle-class-is-disappearing-in-california-as-wealth-gap-grows%3famp

Both sides are guilty as fuck and it takes some extreme blinders to think otherwise. 

Your team is not the good guy, they have replaced defending the middle class with trickle up poverty and focus on the poor. They have replaced the African American progress with illegal immigrant progress because they now out number the African american population within the United States.  

No one’s hands are clean, and the ability of the Devil to convince the world he doesn’t exsist seems to work well with you. 

This is a great argument for taxing the rich and redistributing wealth.

[ChickenSandwich 9,798]

39 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

This is a great argument for taxing the rich and redistributing wealth  

Sorry Commrade.  

Quite the opposite  

Its also a great argument that Democratic policies lead to failure and a change in leadership is needed. 

The more they “redistribute” the worse they make the problem.

Poor Hugo