2023 Republican Government Shutdown: Same Shit, Same Story

[TornACL 7691]

It seems like the only deals he's ever struck in his life are shady real estate investments to an audience of criminals looking to launder money. 

 

[SuingToGetAMessageBoard? 3861]

Just now, TornACL said:

It seems like the only deals he's ever struck in his life are shady real estate investments to an audience of criminals looking to launder money. 

 

What I'm getting the feeling is that there just so many people in the world that want to do a deal that they just won't ever walk away.   That's what he is used to dealing with.

[Brisketexan 104800]

What I'm getting the feeling is that there just so many people in the world that want to do a deal that they just won't ever walk away.   That's what he is used to dealing with.

There’s also something to this. It constantly amazes me how often we lawyers are litigating a disastrous deal that everyone should have walked away from before it got off the ground. But they wanted to do a deal...

[Crusher 127]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

They don’t have to win. They just have to drag it out. They can. It happens all the time, including against county commissioners.

And the wall can’t be built without a full condemnation process - a declared emergency doesn’t void the constitution. You can only take my property for a public purpose, and I am entitled to just compensation. Well-developed law under the 5th amendment. I can litigate both issues. To death. I have actual experience in this field.

 

I'm not a lawyer so bear with me. How would a property owner in a theoretical case like I outlined, where Trump declares a National Emergency and the Supreme Court finds that he can indeed do this, how would a land owner ever expect to get satisfaction from the courts? The Supreme Court has already de facto ruled against them when they said Trump could build his wall in the first place?

[Brisketexan 104800]

I'm not a lawyer so bear with me. How would a property owner in a theoretical case like I outlined, where Trump declares a National Emergency and the Supreme Court finds that he can indeed do this, how would a land owner ever expect to get satisfaction from the courts? The Supreme Court has already de facto ruled against them when they said Trump could build his wall in the first place?

The condemnation question wouldn’t be before SCOTUS. Only the executive order and his authority to issue it would be. Then, when the govt shows up to try to build the wall at Joe Rancher’s place, there’s a totally separate 5th amendment challenge. The question of “scope of executive authority” and “public purpose” are two separate inquiries and standards. That’s very condensed, but it’s a snapshot.

[achooloco 1066]

13 minutes ago, Crusher said:

I'm not a lawyer so bear with me. How would a property owner in a theoretical case like I outlined, where Trump declares a National Emergency and the Supreme Court finds that he can indeed do this, how would a land owner ever expect to get satisfaction from the courts? The Supreme Court has already de facto ruled against them when they said Trump could build his wall in the first place?

Crusher is the spankytoes of the anastisis both sides contributors...

[Crusher 127]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

The condemnation question wouldn’t be before SCOTUS. Only the executive order and his authority to issue it would be. Then, when the govt shows up to try to build the wall at Joe Rancher’s place, there’s a totally separate 5th amendment challenge. The question of “scope of executive authority” and “public purpose” are two separate inquiries and standards. That’s very condensed, but it’s a snapshot.

Thanks for the explanation.

Is there any precedent for a case like I outlined? Where under a declaration of national emergency the government could act and settle at a later date? If not, would you expect for a case like this to make it quickly through the process or be drug out as can happen when the government wants to bleed cash from a plaintiff? I would think the Government would push it quickly to the top as they would have that as an interest and a favorable SCOTUS.

 

 

[LongestHorn 759]

Ending the government shutdown was so easy, even a Caveman could do it.

[atomheartbevo 89511]

7 hours ago, swraith said:

Congress will not reach an agreement by Feb 15.

The drama will continue for the reality TV star.

Nope.  The airport issues broke that dam.   Corporate America is going to make sure Turtle and the others know not to let things get to that point again. 

[Michael Knight 12955]

all this winning is getting exhausting

[Aqua Buddha 14532]

6 hours ago, SuingToGetAMessageBoard? said:

What I'm getting the feeling is that there just so many people in the world that want to do a deal that they just won't ever walk away.   That's what he is used to dealing with.

Like he three models on the backside of their career who agreed to marry him.

[Aqua Buddha 14532]

6 hours ago, TornACL said:

It seems like the only deals he's ever struck in his life are shady real estate investments to an audience of criminals looking to launder money. 

 

Exactly.  Whenever someone tells who a great business person he is, challenge them to name 3 deals he's made.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13425]

Pelosi isn’t going to give trump $1for the wall.   He can have his border security money but for the wall he gets 0.0. 

And wouldn’t surprise me if pelosi somehow figures out a way to prevent the national emergency being declared.  She schooled the WH and understands trumps breaking points.

On a separate note, this will be a bad weekend at the WH. Trump can yell that he didn’t cave but no one is buying it .  At best, the conservative news site and channels are silent on the question.   Everyone else: he caved.  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23366]

McConnell called Trump on Thursday to say that the shutdown could not hold because some of his members were in revolt. 

Edited January 26, 2019 by Hugo Stiglitz

[HenryJames 65931]

 

[DigglerontheHoof 21099]

5 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

McConnell called Trump on Thursday to say that the shutdown could not hold because some of his members were in revolt. 

but, but, but Trump assured us the Reps had NEVER been more united on the wall.   Ass clown.

[Dahobbs 17498]

8 hours ago, Crusher said:

Thanks for the explanation.

Is there any precedent for a case like I outlined? Where under a declaration of national emergency the government could act and settle at a later date? If not, would you expect for a case like this to make it quickly through the process or be drug out as can happen when the government wants to bleed cash from a plaintiff? I would think the Government would push it quickly to the top as they would have that as an interest and a favorable SCOTUS.

 

 

Eminent domain cases do not get resolved in less than 2 years. It doesn't happen. You are conflating several different questions: (1) whether the president has authority to issue an emergency declaration under these circumstances, (2) whether the border can seize the lands under eminent domain, and (3) if 2 is yes, how much the government must pay the landowners. All three of those questions have distinctive legal and factual inquiries. And all three would ultimately require at least two, and probably 3 levels of review (district court, appellate court, supreme court). Even under a very aggressive schedule, that isn't likely to conclude in less than two years.

And, I think the most optimistic situation for the government would be one year to resolve the legal challenges. That leaves very little time for any actual construction of anything. Point being, a wall is 100% not being built within two years. Even if everything goes to perfectly for Trump, you'll have just the bare groundwork prior to the next President coming in. Oh, and since the available money is well short of what would actually be needed to acquire the property and construct a wall, you wont even have that.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Dahobbs

[Nice Guy Eddie 13425]

12 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Eminent domain cases do not get resolved in less than 2 years. It doesn't happen. You are conflating several different questions: (1) whether the president has authority to issue an emergency declaration under these circumstances, (2) whether the border can seize the lands under eminent domain, and (3) if 2 is yes, how much the government must pay the landowners. All three of those questions have distinctive legal and factual inquiries. And all three would ultimately require at least two, and probably 3 levels of review (district court, appellate court, supreme court). Even under a very aggressive schedule, that isn't likely to conclude in less than two years.

And, I think the most optimistic situation for the government would be one year to resolve the legal challenges. That leaves very little time for any actual construction of anything. Point being, a wall is 100% not being built within two years. Even if everything goes to perfectly for Trump, you'll have just the bare groundwork prior to the next President coming in. Oh, and since the available money is well short of what would actually be needed to acquire the property and construct a wall, you wont even have that.

Out of curiosity, has the govt ever seized land under the guise of a national emergency?  I just wonder if a national emergency can allow them to bypass the normal eminent domain processes. 

 

[Brisketexan 104800]

Thanks for the explanation.
Is there any precedent for a case like I outlined? Where under a declaration of national emergency the government could act and settle at a later date? If not, would you expect for a case like this to make it quickly through the process or be drug out as can happen when the government wants to bleed cash from a plaintiff? I would think the Government would push it quickly to the top as they would have that as an interest and a favorable SCOTUS.
 
 

Well, because what we’re going talking about are individual constitutional rights under the 5th amendment, I can think of only one precedent that stands for the proposition that an Executive Order of any sort can effectively say “fuck all that constitutional rights bullshit” - Korematsu, the SCOTUS case allowing for the Japanese internment.
Of course, Korematsu has been officially repudiated by the SCOTUS (ironically enough, in Trump v Hawaii last year) and is actually used as an example of the worst decisions ever made by the court. So, for this admin to rely on Korematsu as precedent is actually something we should all be ready for.

[Dahobbs 17498]

3 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Out of curiosity, has the govt ever seized land under the guise of a national emergency?  I just wonder if a national emergency can allow them to bypass the normal eminent domain processes. 

 

There are cases sort of like that. Troops seized a hotel building in Panama while the area was under attack. Ultimately the government wasn't liable under the takings clause because there was an emergency and because the taking wasn't just for the public benefit, but for the specific benefit of the hotel as the troops were protecting it. I am not aware of an analog that required long term seizure in order to construct a permanent structure. 

[Aqua Buddha 14532]

1 hour ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Out of curiosity, has the govt ever seized land under the guise of a national emergency?  I just wonder if a national emergency can allow them to bypass the normal eminent domain processes. 

 

I'm not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV but Truman tried seizing control of the steel industry and the courts shot him down.  Don't know the legal background but it's very similar.

[SquishMitten 10402]

If it ever gets to this point, which I don’t think it will, the determination of “just compensation” is going to be massive. It’s not the land value that’s going to be the issue, it’s going to be access to the Rio Grande. Without it, all those ranches along the Texas border will be unsustainable.

[cactusflinthead 27596]

3 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Eminent domain cases do not get resolved in less than 2 years. It doesn't happen. You are conflating several different questions: (1) whether the president has authority to issue an emergency declaration under these circumstances, (2) whether the border can seize the lands under eminent domain, and (3) if 2 is yes, how much the government must pay the landowners. All three of those questions have distinctive legal and factual inquiries. And all three would ultimately require at least two, and probably 3 levels of review (district court, appellate court, supreme court). Even under a very aggressive schedule, that isn't likely to conclude in less than two years.

And, I think the most optimistic situation for the government would be one year to resolve the legal challenges. That leaves very little time for any actual construction of anything. Point being, a wall is 100% not being built within two years. Even if everything goes to perfectly for Trump, you'll have just the bare groundwork prior to the next President coming in. Oh, and since the available money is well short of what would actually be needed to acquire the property and construct a wall, you wont even have that.

How many cases are ongoing in regards to W's wall building? 

[JimmyJames 12271]

2 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, because what we’re going talking about are individual constitutional rights under the 5th amendment, I can think of only one precedent that stands for the proposition that an Executive Order of any sort can effectively say “fuck all that constitutional rights bullshit” - Korematsu, the SCOTUS case allowing for the Japanese internment.
Of course, Korematsu has been officially repudiated by the SCOTUS (ironically enough, in Trump v Hawaii last year) and is actually used as an example of the worst decisions ever made by the court. So, for this admin to rely on Korematsu as precedent is actually something we should all be ready for.

The korematsu decision was terrible, but citizens united helped give us trump, so it’ll go down as the worst decision ever, even besting dred Scott. And it was authored by that so called “moderate” Kennedy. So I nominate him for the worst Supreme Court Justice ever. 

[horn4life 3758]

So now we are going to see two weeks of negotiation behind closed doors.  Rather than have open and honest debate in both houses with silly things like amendments and votes, that would force compromise.  Instead McConnell and Schumer will try to come up with something that Pelosi and Trump will accept.  Only problem is what Trump won't accept one day he will accept two weeks later.  Something Trump would accept yesterday he won't accept tomorrow...

Trump is again back to basically three choices. Let the Senate go big and add in Dreamers, border security funding, immigration judges etc.  Basically the same sort of bill that passed the Senate with 68 votes, that was blocked by the GOP from a vote BECAUSE IT WOULD HAVE PASSED.  The Second choice is to shut the government down again, hoping that fire doesn't again burn, on a 70/30 issue. Door number three is the one I could see Trump trying to use and that is declaring a National Emergency for a politcal slogan.

I personally hope Trump thinks he looks strong and powerful by declaring a National Emergency.  Then you can watch the GOP tear itself apart trying to support a level of stupidity never ever before seen in politics.  And watch the stabilization of support for Trump flutter futher downward.  As Republicans in the Senate begin to see their only chance at not getting wiped out in 2020 is voting to impeach and hoping that a reset with a noble knight of the people like Mike Pence will energize the base  not lose so many Senate seats they can't block the Dems expanding the Supreme court to 11 or 13 judges.

Edited January 26, 2019 by horn4life

[Hugo Stiglitz 23366]

Whatever Trump does, he will fuck it up.

[retread 2951]

He doesn't have many other talking points (domestically) that resonate as well with his base. If he declared a national emergency and it got shot down in court, he would still have that issue floating out there to scream about at his 2020 rallies. I guess he could also hold it over the heads of the Senate Rs when the next budget bill comes up. Who knows.

Edited January 26, 2019 by retread

[relapse98 634]

18 hours ago, retread said:

I don't know how that works when it goes to the courts. What evidence do you present? Anecdotes about women in back seats with duct taped mouths?

Well that, and the fake number about 63,000 citizens killed by aliens that he overheard in Arizona and they keep parroting.

[Francisco 2.0 32355]

Taken yesterday during the President's announcement the shutdown was over.  Take a good hard look at these folks. Not a single one of them is remotely qualified for the job they hold.  Our Presidential cabinet is composed of D-Listers, people past their time, and people that should have never, ever been even considered for a cabinet position.  With a cabinet like this, it's a fucking miracle the country is still running.   Just look at the incompetence on display:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chad Fuck 17594]

Where’s goodhair?

[Atx71 146]

1 hour ago, retread said:

He doesn't have many other talking points (domestically) that resonate as well with his base. If he declared a national emergency and it got shot down in court, he would still have that issue floating out there to scream about at his 2020 rallies. I guess he could also hold it over the heads of the Senate Rs when the next budget bill comes up. Who knows.

The hypocrit will jump on the abortion train next. 

 

Watch.

[atomheartbevo 89511]

27 minutes ago, Chad Fuck said:

Where’s goodhair?

Somebody told Perry he’s in charge of securing our nuclear arsenal, so he’s been following this guy around and keeping him safe  

 

[retread 2951]

1 hour ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Taken yesterday during the President's announcement the shutdown was over.  Take a good hard look at these folks. Not a single one of them is remotely qualified for the job they hold.  Our Presidential cabinet is composed of D-Listers, people past their time, and people that should have never, ever been even considered for a cabinet position.  With a cabinet like this, it's a fucking miracle the country is still running.   Just look at the incompetence on display:

[Jack Straw 2954]

21 hours ago, TornACL said:

It seems like the only deals he's ever struck in his life are shady real estate investments to an audience of criminals looking to launder money. 

 

And paying off trashy porn stars.  And he managed to fuck that up too.  

[Hugo Stiglitz 23366]

 

[Hank Kingsley 20834]

5 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Thinking about that 20+ minute dressing down Bennet gave Cruz just a few days ago. Any moral human would have taken those words to heart in some way. 

But Cruz just doubles down and knowingly lies to the American public. For party. For power. For hate. For fear. He truly is an evil person. 

 

Edited January 27, 2019 by Hank Kingsley

[Hank Kingsley 20834]

Also makes me think Beto shouldn't run for President in 2020. He ran against the shittiest human being that represents Texas and barely criticized him. That race was winnable. 

 

[David Dennison 18768]

21 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Also makes me think Beto shouldn't run for President in 2020. He ran against the shittiest human being that represents Texas and barely criticized him. That race was winnable. 

I liked voting for Beto for the Senate.

There's nothing about him (yet) that makes me want to vote for him for president.

Edited January 27, 2019 by David Dennison

[yaqdum 182]

11 hours ago, SquishMitten said:

If it ever gets to this point, which I don’t think it will, the determination of “just compensation” is going to be massive. It’s not the land value that’s going to be the issue, it’s going to be access to the Rio Grande. Without it, all those ranches along the Texas border will be unsustainable.

we would essentially be ceding the river to mexico and establishing a no man's land.

[cactusflinthead 27596]

Lyin Ted is back! Now with facial hair!

Same old shit! New package!

Tell us why 6 of your R friends voted with Schumer.

[atomheartbevo 89511]

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Thinking about that 20+ minute dressing down Bennet gave Cruz just a few days ago. Any moral human would have taken those words to heart in some way. 

But Cruz just doubles down and knowingly lies to the American public. For party. For power. For hate. For fear. He truly is an evil person. 

There’s nothing about Cruz that radiates power, whether it’s his weak chin pubes game, or letting Trump publicly shit on his wife’s mental issues, mock her looks, and question his father’s honor.   

Trump might as well be an incel.   

[UTDD 362]

12 hours ago, SquishMitten said:

If it ever gets to this point, which I don’t think it will, the determination of “just compensation” is going to be massive. It’s not the land value that’s going to be the issue, it’s going to be access to the Rio Grande. Without it, all those ranches along the Texas border will be unsustainable.

Underrated issue.  Plus, you'd have to build the wall in back of the river (the US side) presumably so how are they going to manage this resource for landowners that rely on it?

[Francisco 2.0 32355]

6 hours ago, Chad Fuck said:

Where’s goodhair?

Ya gotta admit; Rick Perry may be the most politically astute cabinet member.  Name a gaffe by him since he took over. Admittedly, that's a pretty low bar given his cohorts.

He knows this is a shitshow, and he keeps himself at arms length.  I'm not saying he's competent, but to this point, he's kept his nose clean.

[Welch 635]

10 hours ago, horn4life said:

I personally hope Trump thinks he looks strong and powerful by declaring a National Emergency.  Then you can watch the GOP tear itself apart trying to support a level of stupidity never ever before seen in politics.  And watch the stabilization of support for Trump flutter futher downward.  As Republicans in the Senate begin to see their only chance at not getting wiped out in 2020 is voting to impeach and hoping that a reset with a noble knight of the people like Mike Pence will energize the base  not lose so many Senate seats they can't block the Dems expanding the Supreme court to 11 or 13 judges.

To be fair, they have plenty of experience in this particular area.

[Fudge Nuggets 19166]

On 1/26/2019 at 1:42 AM, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I hope Trump throws McConnell under the bus someday soon.  He deserves it.

In other news, I have been blocked on twitter by Sebastian Gorka.  

I got put into twitter time out by the RNC.  Worth it.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23366]

 

[JimmyJames 12271]

6 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

It’s a bluff. And a bad one at that. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23366]

8 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

It’s a bluff. And a bad one at that. 

I think Trump will try to shutdown the government again. I don’t know if he will or can due to pressure from Senate Republicans.  However, he’s gonna want another loyalty test. 

He needs to constantly gauge the Senate Republicans allegiances.  

[David Dennison 18768]

19 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

 

Proving yet again that they don't want to make a deal, they want the issue. Gotta keep the base scared, especially the ones who do don't live anywhere near the southern border.

[David Dennison 18768]

The debt ceiling has be addressed on March 1. Let's not forget that.