2018 Poker run good or die

[TXSooner518 2438]

Why do we think a "spewy" player is going to fold, when he raised UTG?  Have you played with the young black guy a lot? If not, he doesn't know you're pegged at JJ+.

If we are expanding 3-bet range, I would rather 3-bet stuff that plays OK if called, like smaller pairs, suited aces, suited connectors, than junk like Q4o. Otherwise we have to really size up our 3-bets, since getting called in bloated pot with J5o is the drizzling shits. But then, we are risking too much to not win enough. So I would go with a balanced 3-bet sizing, with hands that have some hope when called. Would rather have JTs than A8o, for example.

[TXSooner518 2438]

2 minutes ago, Lurch said:

 

He’s taken a fair bit from me and usually plays w the $5/10 crew. It was really a baffling play.

One of the other $5/10 guys opened over a straddle to $35. I raised to $75 on button w QQ, all fold and he calls.

T42 rainbow. He check calls my $85.

K. Chk/chk

8. He leads $100 and I call to see his K6o.

I have no idea how these guys do it.

 

So you opened over a 35 raise to 75, someone cold-called the 75 with K6o, and then the person who made it 35, folded for 40 more into a pot of 200 closing the action??? Jesus H Christ, I need in this game.

The K6 player in this hand can either see your cards or is dreadful at poker, period.

[deech 2291]

 

 

2 minutes ago, TXSooner518 said:

So you opened over a 35 raise to 75, someone cold-called the 75 with K6o, and then the person who made it 35, folded for 40 more into a pot of 200 closing the action??? Jesus H Christ, I need in this game.

The K6 player in this hand can either see your cards or is dreadful at poker, period.

My response was going to be....where is this game again?  LOL

 

When this happens you thank the poker gods for the luxury of finding you people that play this poorly.

 

Also agree with Sooner regarding your 3-bet variance being suited connectors and/or suited one-offs in position as opposed to K-shit or Q-shit.

Edited October 16, 2018 by deech

[TXSooner518 2438]

If the UTG raiser in our AA hand is the same K6 guy here, we should be raising the AA to like 125 on the button. If he is cold-calling 75 with K6o, he isn't folding anything he 6x UTG to a raise to 125.

[Lurch 5931]

So you opened over a 35 raise to 75, someone cold-called the 75 with K6o, and then the person who made it 35, folded for 40 more into a pot of 200 closing the action??? Jesus H Christ, I need in this game.
The K6 player in this hand can either see your cards or is dreadful at poker, period.

Not the same guy. Different $5/10 guy this time. Just the two of us in this hand

[TXSooner518 2438]

1 minute ago, Lurch said:

 

Not the same guy. Different $5/10 guy this time. Just the two of us in this hand

 

He was the guy who made it 35?  Or someone went 35-fold after he cold-called the 75?

[Lurch 5931]

Why do we think a "spewy" player is going to fold, when he raised UTG?  Have you played with the young black guy a lot? If not, he doesn't know you're pegged at JJ+.

 

Hadn’t played with him before. He was leading out in first dozen hands or so. I hadn’t seen him call down w junk yet. Looked like he was just being aggressive until someone pushed back. I just didn’t think SB or BB would join so I’d have plenty of opportunity to take advantage of him post flop. No reason to push him off pre

 

And, I’m a middle aged white dude. A young black dude has me pegged at JJ+ before sitting down

[Lurch 5931]

He was the guy who made it 35?  Or someone went 35-fold after he cold-called the 75?

UTG+1 made it $35. SB, BB, UTG all folded to my raise. UTG+1 called w K6o

[TXSooner518 2438]

 

8 minutes ago, Lurch said:

 

Hadn’t played with him before. He was leading out in first dozen hands or so. I hadn’t seen him call down w junk yet. Looked like he was just being aggressive until someone pushed back. I just didn’t think SB or BB would join so I’d have plenty of opportunity to take advantage of him post flop. No reason to push him off pre

 

And, I’m a middle aged white dude. A young black dude has me pegged at JJ+ before sitting down

If we think SB is solid, he's also noticed the spewiness, and is going to want to come in with hands that can flop well. And we aren't trying to push him off pre, but we are too deep to try to just trap. I like your flat better in a tourney-type situation where we are 30-50 BB deep so we can comfortably stack off on the flop without regret. If we are stacking off with $350 behind and $60 in the pot, we are going to be beat a decent amount when all the money goes in, let alone if we are stacking off $800. 

If anything, you could have raised smaller like you did in your QQ hand (I don't like that sizing there BTW). I still don't see very many players 6x'ing UTG and then folding to any kind of reasonable 3b.

5 minutes ago, Lurch said:

 

UTG+1 made it $35. SB, BB, UTG all folded to my raise. UTG+1 called w K6o

 

Well that's still heinous by UTG1, but at least there was only one player being awful instead of the two I originally thought.

Edited October 16, 2018 by TXSooner518

[Lurch 5931]

If we are expanding 3-bet range, I would rather 3-bet stuff that plays OK if called, like smaller pairs, suited aces, suited connectors, than junk like Q4o. Otherwise we have to really size up our 3-bets, since getting called in bloated pot with J5o is the drizzling shits. But then, we are risking too much to not win enough. So I would go with a balanced 3-bet sizing, with hands that have some hope when called. Would rather have JTs than A8o, for example.

I got the idea from a Jonathan Little hand. Though, he was explaining it in the context of a tourney.

[Lurch 5931]

It occurs to me now that K6 dude may have been employing that very strategy.

Imagine it’s his 20% time to balance 99+/AK, and he does so w K6. When he called me pre I thought 99-JJ, AJs+, AK.

On air flop he probably check raises JJ, but check calls w that entire range excluding maybe the AJs and AQs that didn’t hit any of the three suits on the board. So, Kosher so far.

K turn might weed out a few more of the missed AJs and AQs, but the others check call again, probably. TT might check raise at this point and had his range been a bit wider w QJ we may see a raise w those too. Regardless, still sort of on point, and now he’s hit top pair. My check back on turn killed the AA, AK and KQ from my range. He may well have easily seen QQ or JJ as my only viable hands.

Making his river bet... perfect?

[TXSooner518 2438]

I think you narrowed him way too far pre. He isn't folding a single hand he made it 35 with to a raise to 75. Again, I hate that sizing, depending on stack depth. We are announcing "WE HAVE A BIG HAND IN CASE YOU HIT" without charging him for the privilege, and an A or K will come over 40% of the time. I don't like changing raise sizes based on our hand if we are playing players we will ever play again, but 75 there is much better with AA since obv no overcards can come.

I also think you are giving him a bit too much credit. Raising K6 UTG1 is just going to be a losing play period. I haven't been able to watch the whole JL video, but he is 3betting against a button open, which is an entirely different dynamic. He is 3b'ing not because OMG J2, but because his opponent's range is wide and he can take the initiative away and put him to the test.

Here, K6 guy's thinking was likely "ooh, straddle, more money in the pot, king is a good card, RAISEITUP", then can't fold to tiny raise.  Check-calling this flop with no pair no draw is again pretty dreadful unless he has some very very specific read on you to have JJ or QQ, because he can then take away the pot on a T, K, or A most likely (even still that is only going to turn about 1/4 of the time, and that is reliant on KNOWING you have JJ-QQ and not AK, AA, KK, etc.

Once the turn comes, I think he plays fine. I agree that he can assume you don't have AA or KK there, though I would reasonably frequently check back AK or KQ there in your shoes. River bet is standard value bet for him, and reasonable.

[Lurch 5931]

I think you narrowed him way too far pre. He isn't folding a single hand he made it 35 with to a raise to 75. Again, I hate that sizing, depending on stack depth. We are announcing "WE HAVE A BIG HAND IN CASE YOU HIT" without charging him for the privilege, and an A or K will come over 40% of the time. I don't like changing raise sizes based on our hand if we are playing players we will ever play again, but 75 there is much better with AA since obv no overcards can come.
I also think you are giving him a bit too much credit. Raising K6 UTG1 is just going to be a losing play period. I haven't been able to watch the whole JL video, but he is 3betting against a button open, which is an entirely different dynamic. He is 3b'ing not because OMG J2, but because his opponent's range is wide and he can take the initiative away and put him to the test.
Here, K6 guy's thinking was likely "ooh, straddle, more money in the pot, king is a good card, RAISEITUP", then can't fold to tiny raise.  Check-calling this flop with no pair no draw is again pretty dreadful unless he has some very very specific read on you to have JJ or QQ, because he can then take away the pot on a T, K, or A most likely (even still that is only going to turn about 1/4 of the time, and that is reliant on KNOWING you have JJ-QQ and not AK, AA, KK, etc.
Once the turn comes, I think he plays fine. I agree that he can assume you don't have AA or KK there, though I would reasonably frequently check back AK or KQ there in your shoes. River bet is standard value bet for him, and reasonable.

What do you like my raise at? $105?

[TXSooner518 2438]

Just now, Lurch said:

 

What do you like my raise at? $105?

 

What's the effective stack?  Yeah, generally $90-110 there, unless we are extremely short. Look at it this way, if we decide to mix in A3s or 44 to our 3b range, are we ever going 75 with those hands in that spot?

[Lurch 5931]

Check-calling this flop with no pair no draw is again pretty dreadful unless he has some very very specific read on you to have JJ or QQ, because he can then take away the pot on a T, K, or A most likely (even still that is only going to turn about 1/4 of the time, and that is reliant on KNOWING you have JJ-QQ and not AK, AA, KK, etc.

Watching them on the stream, I see the $5/10 crew floating a ton of flops, fwiw. They know each other VERY well, though, so they’re leveling each other a lot more than I would assume is their standard play at a random table.

[TXSooner518 2438]

1 minute ago, Lurch said:

 

Watching them on the stream, I see the $5/10 crew floating a ton of flops, fwiw. They know each other VERY well, though, so they’re leveling each other a lot more than I would assume is their standard play at a random table.

 

Out of position even?  Much different calling a headsup c-bet in position than check-calling OOP.  Also would be much different holding, say, AQ here, vs K6, as we actually might be good, and have reasonable chance at 6 outs when not.

[Lurch 5931]

What's the effective stack?  Yeah, generally $90-110 there, unless we are extremely short. Look at it this way, if we decide to mix in A3s or 44 to our 3b range, are we ever going 75 with those hands in that spot?

$500.

Agree.

[Lurch 5931]

I think I’ll build some $2/5 preflop ranges and share for discussion

 

[Lurch 5931]

This thread is fascinating. So much more to poker than how I play (get drunk, wait for good cards sometimes, bet half pot or more, if my opponent raises he ain’t got shit)

It’s what makes the game so intriguing to me. It’s seeming simplicity (how many of us have young kids that understand the basics well enough to play?) hides just how deep it can be developed with time and effort. I’m probably on my 4th or 5th “phase” of discovering a more advanced way of viewing the strategy and each time has been eye opening. When you look back on how you previously approached it, you can’t help but laugh at how naive you were, but at the same time there’s recognition that there are still a ton of players even far more advanced.

Or you can just drink and take shots at draws which is also a lot of fun...

[Lurch 5931]

$2/5 on a very active table.

 

I complete the SB w 53dd on a rare limped pre flop. 6 ways, $30 pot.

 

5c 5h 8d. I open to $25. Folds to MP who calls. Others fold. $80 pot.

 

Kd. I make it $45. He raises to $150. I jam for $450 total. He has me covered and snaps w 56o. Near freeroll. $980 pot.

 

7d. And we’re having fun again

 

 

[TXSooner518 2438]

Wheeee! And I watched the JL video. I agree with his concept of 3b bluffing with the bottom of your call range and top of your fold range. For his hand he was defending BB against a small button raise so J2s is in that zone. It would be considerably different, say, being on the button facing a $25 open from MP.

In that spot maybe our 3b bluff hands are things like Q8s, A4s, 76o, QTo. Depending on player tendencies and stack depths, both the opener and the blinds behind us.

[Lurch 5931]

It’s been a good 4 hours

[Tailgate 3022]

Nice stack

[Lurch 5931]

Put me back in the black for the month. I got trounced in my third session of Oct, so I put myself in detention ($2/2) to dig out of the hole and get my shit together. $2/2 turned out to be more challenging than $2/5!

[Lurch 5931]

Last night was a nice smooth ride ...

Oct 16 - 6hrs - +$1,415 (+$890)
1: +$45 ($545)
2: +$95 ($640)
3: +$545 ($1,185)
4: +$890 ($2,075)
5: -$385 ($1,690)
6: +$225 ($1,915)

Now check out this start tonight

Oct 17
1: +$80 ($880) $300 add-on
2: -$880 ($500) $500 add-on
3: +$1,390 ($1,890)

Flopped bottom 2 vs top 2 and we got it all in on the flop during hour 2.

Hour 3 was highlighted by flopping top set over second set for +$650. Guy rebuys and let’s chip runner place his stacks neatly, then guy demolishes his own stack and leaves table for 30 mins. He’s actually a pretty nice dude but that put him on mega tilt

[Lurch 5931]

I raise a limper to $30 w KK from CO and he and three others come along. $120 pot.

 

J84 rainbow. Two checks to me, I make it $85. Button (probably top 5 tourney guys here, 30yo white guy) calls.

 

J. What do I do here?! I check and he makes it $115. Now what? He’s about $1k and I have him covered

 

 

 

[VolenteHawk 495]

Puke fold.

[AUS-97HORN 11809]

8 hours ago, Lurch said:

I raise a limper to $30 w KK from CO and he and three others come along. $120 pot.

J84 rainbow. Two checks to me, I make it $85. Button (probably top 5 tourney guys here, 30yo white guy) calls.

J. What do I do here?! I check and he makes it $115. Now what? He’s about $1k and I have him covered

sounds like this guy knows your play as well. 

So if its not normal for you to check a paired turn after leading the bets preflop & flop action, hes probably playing you being scared of the J. 

However if you almost always check a paired turn, then I would say its a much higher chance that he has something other than a J here.  And 88 & 44 would both be possible since it was only $25 more to call to go set mining.   and obviously Jx would also be possible, especially suited on the button.

calling the $115 isnt horrible, but the issue is, what do you do when the river throws up a blank and you check and he fires out a pot sized bet of $500 on the river?

if you dont normally check the paired board, I would say you gave a tell by checking and he's exploiting it.   If you normally check in that spot, I would say he knows that and probably has something strong.

either way, I almost always let it go unless you just know hes bluffing.

Edited October 18, 2018 by AUS-97HORN

[TXSooner518 2438]

29 minutes ago, VolenteHawk said:

Puke fold.

 

28 minutes ago, AUS-97HORN said:

sounds like this guy knows your play as well. 

So if its not normal for you to check a paired turn after leading the bets preflop & flop action, hes probably playing you being scared of the J. 

However if you almost always check a paired turn, then I would say its a much higher chance that he has something other than a J here.  And 88 & 44 would both be possible since it was only $25 more to call to go set mining.   and obviously Jx would also be possible, especially suited on the button.

calling the $115 isnt horrible, but the issue is, what do you do when the river throws up a blank and you check and he fires out a pot sized bet of $500 on the river?

if you dont normally check the paired board, I would say you gave a tell by checking and he's exploiting it.   If you normally check in that spot, I would say he knows that and probably has something strong.

either way, I almost always let it go unless you just know hes bluffing.

I think the turn is a very clear call actually. He can be bluffing, and he can be betting worse for value. We can evaluate the river when we see what it is and what he does. For example, his most likely bluff hand is T9, so if a 7 or Q peels and he bombs it, we are doing much worse now against his range and we can comfortably fold. 

The turn is the most obvious "scare card" in the deck, and tourney players exploit fold equity and pressure as a manner of course. If we are check-folding KK here, we are literally only continuing with AJ and 88? That's waaayyyy too weak.

[Lurch 5931]

I folded and hated myself for it. I knew he was going to test me on the river and I would be looking at another $3-500 bet for showdown. I’d rather not play with this guy, but he had just sat and there weren’t any seats for me to change to on our full table. I ended up calling it a night just a few orbits later. Finished up $800 so I couldn’t be too bitter!

[Lurch 5931]

I think the turn is a very clear call actually.

Check call here vs lead out frequency?

[Lurch 5931]

sounds like this guy knows your play as well. 

Quite likely. This dude is legit. I would not at all be surprised if he studies daily and has a book on all of us regs. He’s very focused and serious. One of the few guys I’d simply rather not play. The other big time players I enjoy the challenge of trying to outplay them.

[TXSooner518 2438]

8 minutes ago, Lurch said:

 

Check call here vs lead out frequency?

 

I would lead out against sticky call station types, and check-call against bluffy, aggro, or thinking players. So definite check-call against this guy.

For those who want to fold, are we ever checking with AJ or 88 here? If not, we are capping our range, and if we are folding one of the best hands in our range, we are just giving this guy free reign to buttfuck us. 

What would you have done on a 5 turn?  Lead like $160?

[Lurch 5931]

I want three streets w AJ or 88 so I’m betting them the whole way.

 

 

Had the turn not come A, J or 8 I’d probably bet $150 on turn and $300 on river if it too was clean.

 

Had he checked through on turn, I would have bet $150 on a clean river

[TXSooner518 2438]

5 minutes ago, Lurch said:

I want three streets w AJ or 88 so I’m betting them the whole way.

Had the turn not come A, J or 8 I’d probably bet $150 on turn and $300 on river if it too was clean.

Had he checked through on turn, I would have bet $150 on a clean river

Right, so when we check we are announcing "I WILL FOLD IF YOU BET" if we are giving up KK, especially to a single bet, since we are betting the turn with every single hand we will continue with. Keep in mind, this discussion is about this specific villain. There certainly are some players who we absolutely can and should check-fold KK here, but they are pretty rare.

I would also consider an 8 a clean turn, I would rather see it than a 7 or Q, though he obviously will occasionally turn up with an 8.

Would you take the same line you took with KK here with 99 or TT?  What do you expect this villain to do with 99 or TT here?

[Lurch 5931]

I’d have bet turn w 99 and TT w the extra 4 outs to a straight. I’d expect him to play those exactly as he played here.

[TXSooner518 2438]

1 minute ago, Lurch said:

I’d have bet turn w 99 and TT w the extra 4 outs to a straight. I’d expect him to play those exactly as he played here.

?  We don't have straight outs with those hands on J84J.

[Lurch 5931]

?  We don't have straight outs with those hands on J84J.

Ah right. My bad. Hmm.

I prob check turn then.

[TXSooner518 2438]

Just now, Lurch said:

 

Ah right. My bad. Hmm.

I prob check turn then.

 

and you would still say you think he plays them the same?  call flop, bet turn when checked to?

[Lurch 5931]

and you would still say you think he plays them the same?  call flop, bet turn when checked to?

He might (?) raise the flop occasionally, but otherwise yes. Usually would call flop and bet turn when checked to.

[TXSooner518 2438]

3 minutes ago, Lurch said:

 

He might (?) raise the flop occasionally, but otherwise yes. Usually would call flop and bet turn when checked to.

 

And do we think he would generally raise or call with a J on the flop? Any chance he flats us pre with QQ?

[VolenteHawk 495]

1 hour ago, TXSooner518 said:

I would lead out against sticky call station types, and check-call against bluffy, aggro, or thinking players. So definite check-call against this guy.

For those who want to fold, are we ever checking with AJ or 88 here? If not, we are capping our range, and if we are folding one of the best hands in our range, we are just giving this guy free reign to buttfuck us. 

What would you have done on a 5 turn?  Lead like $160?

I probably would not have checked KK, I probably would have kept betting it...depends a lot on my read of the player.  Once we check the turn and are no longer the aggressor and out of position, I hate everything about the hand.  So, puke fold and find another spot, even though I hate it.

I'm actually fine checking AJ or 88 here and likely would unless I had a calling station to pay me off.

 

Edited October 18, 2018 by VolenteHawk

[TXSooner518 2438]

1 minute ago, VolenteHawk said:

I probably would not have checked KK, I probably would have kept betting it...depends a lot on my read of the player.  Once we check the turn and are no longer the aggressor and out of position, I hate everything about the hand.  So, puke fold and find another spot, even though I hate it.

I'm actually fine checking AJ or 88 here and likely would unless I had a calling station read.

 

I don't necessarily object to checking AJ/88 here, especially to trap against an aggro thinking player.  I would generally bet, because I want the money in, and betting does it easier than checking (just one of the difficulties of being OOP). 

Our hand is still murdering his range on the turn, so check-folding is just too weak, especially when we have communicated to a thinking player that we never have a "strong" hand here. We have one of the very best hands we can have. The only better hands we can have are AA, 88, AJ, and KJs, and we are rarely checking 88, AJ, KJ. We could have 66, 77, 99, TT, QQ, AK, AQ as well in our "bet flop, check turn" range. 

Also "finding a better spot" is really more of a tourney thing. Assuming we aren't playing above our bankroll, we should take every +$EV spot in a cash game, since we can just reload, whereas we cannot just reload in a tourney. So taking a meh +$EV spot in a cash game doesn't make us miss a huge +$EV spot later, but taking the meh spot in a tourney and busting means we never see the huge spot later.

[Lurch 5931]

And do we think he would generally raise or call with a J on the flop? Any chance he flats us pre with QQ?

Probably raising w AJ, A4, J8, J4. Flatting KJ, 88, 44, TT, 99, KQ

No way he flats QQ pre. In fact, I’d guess he raises 88+ pre, perhaps taking those out of his range here

[TXSooner518 2438]

1 minute ago, Lurch said:

 

Probably raising w AJ, A4, J8, J4. Flatting KJ, 88, 44, TT, 99, KQ

No way he flats QQ pre. In fact, I’d guess he raises 88+ pre, perhaps taking those out of his range here

 

You did just post a hand where you flatted AA on the button in similar spot, no?  But I agree it's unlikely he has QQ. Why is he raising A4, but not A8 or KJ?  I think he never has J4, and A4 and J8 are pretty unlikely also.

[Lurch 5931]

You did just post a hand where you flatted AA on the button in similar spot, no?  But I agree it's unlikely he has QQ. Why is he raising A4, but not A8 or KJ?  I think he never has J4, and A4 and J8 are pretty unlikely also.

He’s a much better player than me! Flatting AA was terrible for me there and I don’t think he’d make the same mistake.

Raising A4 while likely ahead of other aces, but at risk of losing that on future streets. Flatting A8 as we’re happy to keep opener betting for us with lesser risk of losing our lead. KJ is iffy. I could go either way on it, but am more inclined to just call.

I generally like calling in his spot with monsters and backdoor draws, while raising with middling hands and one card draws.

[TXSooner518 2438]

46 minutes ago, Lurch said:

Raising A4 while likely ahead of other aces, but at risk of losing that on future streets. Flatting A8 as we’re happy to keep opener betting for us with lesser risk of losing our lead. KJ is iffy. I could go either way on it, but am more inclined to just call.

I generally like calling in his spot with monsters and backdoor draws, while raising with middling hands and one card draws.

 

I think raising A4 with 3 yet to act behind, when the PFR bets into 4 players on J84 would be hugely ambitious.  I think the fact that there are 3 hands behind may make him more likely to raise a hand that he almost surely calls closing the action, like KJ.

[Lurch 5931]

I think raising A4 with 3 yet to act behind, when the PFR bets into 4 players on J84 would be hugely ambitious.  I think the fact that there are 3 hands behind may make him more likely to raise a hand that he almost surely calls closing the action, like KJ.

Ignore my A4 thoughts, I was confusing w J4.

[TXSooner518 2438]

5 minutes ago, Lurch said:

 

Ignore my A4 thoughts, I was confusing w J4.

 

And did you mean J8 rather than A8?  That would make a bit more sense also. I think he basically should never show up with J4.

[AUS-97HORN 11809]

for clarification to my thoughts, I said calling the $115 isnt a bad play, but my issue is,  what do we do on the river when a brick hits?  I am more concerned about what to do on the river than I am about what to do on the turn.   Even if nothing else connected hits on the river, what do we do?  

I think we all agree, there really are only 4 cards that can hit the river that we get excited about;  one of the 2 other kings, or one of the 2 other jacks, since 3 jacks on the board makes it much easier to call because it makes the chances of villain having the case J are so low

But barring one of those 4 cards, I cant think of a single card hitting the river that we can call a river bomb bet with.

Do we check the river and then have to deal with a $450+ bet to call?  

If we are positive the J isnt in his range, sure, we can call (and run into 44- lol).

But that river is going to be a hella expensive decision 75% of the time.   There is the chance that your call of the $115 slows him down and he decides to go to showdown with A8 hoping it holds.  But probably 3 out of 4 times hes gonna bomb 80% or more of the pot no matter what he's got. 

Leading out on the river is probably the worst move because other than something like QQ, TT, or A8, there is almost nothing that can call a $175-200 river bet by you that you beat.   So he's either gonna fold, or bomb it to ~$650 (or more)  and now you are basically playing for stacks on the river with 2 pair.

 

obviously in money game that just means you get more cash out of the pocket, but that seems like a long term net negative.

Edited October 18, 2018 by AUS-97HORN