2018 Poker run good or die

[Lurch 5922]

Dude. I just took a brutal beat in a fairly significant tourney where I had a solid chip stack nearing the money and you want to tell me (a guy playing 200 hrs a month) I don’t have any idea what my opponent has... several times.

BEST case scenario, you’re drunk.

[ztejas 43411]

Um. No. Something you said intrigued me and I wanted to know where you were coming from.

Just wanted to understand your reasoning. I was focusing on one statement you made - I'm sure you're a good player. 

[TXSooner518 2438]

but if a player like that wants to keep throwing chips into the oblivion you might as well raise him when you have a good hand, fold when you don't, or reverse it and make it unpredictable so he can't tell when you're bluffing*. Use his tendency against him - don't be prisoner to it. 

Why if a player is going to bet anything he has would we want to stop him from doing that when we have a good hand?

Exploiting opponent tendencies is how to make the most money. Some people love to call. Vs those people you just bet-bet-bet with Lurch’s hand here. Some people love to push people off hands when they feel weakness. Vs those people you check flop or bet flop small and check turn. Some people love to fold. Vs those people you don’t win much when you flop like this which is annoying but the good news is they fold when you have KJ and bet this flop.

[TonyTexas 10508]

Lulz at ztejas getting into a poker pissing match with Lurch and Sooner. Guy is a beating.

[deech 2272]

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

[justhookit 4191]

2 hours ago, TonyTexas said:

Lulz at ztejas getting into a poker pissing match with Lurch and Sooner. Guy is a beating.

It was better when his vomit was contained to the football board. Now it appears he’s oozed in here and the basketball board too, which was bad enough. Someone lock him in the cloak room if he ventures there.

[housious 468]

13 hours ago, ztejas said:

Hey man I don't care if you want to listen to me or not. I'll take your money anytime you want, just give me a time and place. 

Just trying to talk cards. Something you said seemed odd to me and I pointed it out as such. 

Are you always this cunty?

[ztejas 43411]

14 minutes ago, housious said:

Are you always this cunty?

Probably

[ztejas 43411]

4 hours ago, TXSooner518 said:

 

Why if a player is going to bet anything he has would we want to stop him from doing that when we have a good hand?

Exploiting opponent tendencies is how to make the most money. Some people love to call. Vs those people you just bet-bet-bet with Lurch’s hand here. Some people love to push people off hands when they feel weakness. Vs those people you check flop or bet flop small and check turn. Some people love to fold. Vs those people you don’t win much when you flop like this which is annoying but the good news is they fold when you have KJ and bet this flop.

 

Thanks. Was just asking for context and an explanation - apologies for being a drunk asshole. 

[October sky 61]

Is anyone playing any online these days? Is it still just Bovada, carbon and ACR?

[Lurch 5922]

I see guys playing ACR at the tables still. I think Bovada spun off poker to another brand

 

IIRC, there seemed to be pretty good evidence of someone playing w god mode in ACR, so research carefully before buying in.

[Chewbacca 7767]

No long sob story here, just a quick reminder that Sooner is not the only one who can randomly get kicked in the nuts at the tables.  Playing a tournament on Saturday night.  Down to 7k in chips (blinds were somewhere around 300/600).   UTG opens up for 1500, it folds around to me on the button.  Look down at KQss (best hand I had seen in 2-3 orbits) and I shove.  UTG shows me his 72o and I assume he's going to fold.  I laugh and say he has live cards and he makes the call.  No love on the flop and he spikes a 7 on the turn.  He said he made the call because I told him that he had live cards.  So because he could rule out 22 and 77 he called for over half his stack with the worst starting hand in poker.  And won.  SMH

[Lurch 5922]

Keep in mind, he was only a 70/30 dog and was being offered 5500 to win 15500 (35%) so not too out of line assuming he had a shitload of chips and ICM wasn’t a big factor.

 

That said, opening UTG w 72o in the first place is certainly on the questionable side!

 

ETA: just caught that calling was over half his stack. Yikes, indeed.

[TXSooner518 2438]

Yeah, math-wise not terrible to actually call once we know we have live cards, so as long as we aren't near the bubble, etc., but the open in the first place is horrendous, especially with reshove stacks behind, and especially when you have less than 20 BB. Also losing in this spot just feels SO MUCH MORE GROSS than the math indicates, for one b/c 72o and for two b/c the play by him was so bad and pointless to begin with.

Cash game I had trucked a guy pretty solidly, he opens $15 on the button off $100, I'm BB with AQ and just move in, he calls 72, we each flop a pair, he turns two pair and wins and tells me he "was tired of getting run over."  You showed me buddy!

[po elvis 2070]

i've never played a tournament where your cards weren't dead when you turned them over like that, even heads up.

[TXSooner518 2438]

i've never played a tournament where your cards weren't dead when you turned them over like that, even heads up.

Sure you have. WSOP for one would not kill a hand. TDA rules say explicitly the hand isn’t dead. You would get a penalty tho.

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

On 12/8/2018 at 10:48 PM, ztejas said:

You're ignoring my point. Deferring the raise to get more chips in the middle is poker 101. I was more focusing on what you wrote about "knowing he'll bet with anything in this spot". 

If you know he's going to bet with anything, regardless of his pocket, it seems like you are losing control of the table in that scenario. You're basically admitting you have no idea what he has. 

I'm being pedantic and I apologize, but if a player like that wants to keep throwing chips into the oblivion you might as well raise him when you have a good hand, fold when you don't, or reverse it and make it unpredictable so he can't tell when you're bluffing*. Use his tendency against him - don't be prisoner to it. 

Z, the guy had a set, he wasn't going anywhere on that flop unless he put him on AA or QQ

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

On 12/11/2018 at 7:33 AM, po elvis said:

i've never played a tournament where your cards weren't dead when you turned them over like that, even heads up.

There was a cash game here in Colorado where the guy threw his cards in, but not the muck, he threw them towards the dealer, the other guy turns over his cards and says I bluffed you.  Hero picks up his hands and said no you didn't.  I got you

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

On 12/10/2018 at 12:34 PM, Chewbacca said:

No long sob story here, just a quick reminder that Sooner is not the only one who can randomly get kicked in the nuts at the tables.  Playing a tournament on Saturday night.  Down to 7k in chips (blinds were somewhere around 300/600).   UTG opens up for 1500, it folds around to me on the button.  Look down at KQss (best hand I had seen in 2-3 orbits) and I shove.  UTG shows me his 72o and I assume he's going to fold.  I laugh and say he has live cards and he makes the call.  No love on the flop and he spikes a 7 on the turn.  He said he made the call because I told him that he had live cards.  So because he could rule out 22 and 77 he called for over half his stack with the worst starting hand in poker.  And won.  SMH

Had this one guy call me, I think for 80 bucks post flop.  Runner runner straight.

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

The bad beat is up to 500k out in Blackhawk.  Long ass drive, but.....

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

21 hours ago, Barry_McCokiner said:

The bad beat is up to 500k out in Blackhawk.  Long ass drive, but.....

Won 700 playing 1/3.   Half the table is there to play connectors and then fold when it doesn’t hit.  Thanks bad beat special  

 

 

quick question I generally won’t put in u less I know I lead or can out play opponent on flop  I was small blind and ha kJ/s   Raised 10  got called by bb reraised button, who was desperate   But I knew I was trailing so I folded  at that moment I had 900 on the table and that’s a quick hand to release, but knowing I trailed I left   Sure enough board eventually would’ve hit my flush   So question is do you ever beer away from science and logic and say “I have a feeling this will hit”

 

 

 

 

[Lurch 5922]

Logically, no, you should never make a decision on what cards you _feel_ will come. When I catch myself thinking that way, I know it’s time to reset or leave. We’re spending all of our time patiently waiting to take advantage of such players... why throw it away falling into the same trap?

 

By the way, when you notice yourself recognizing “damn, I would have hit! Should have called”, it’s time to force yourself to start counting every time you would have missed. Take special note of how often you would then have been sucked into losing a huge pot. (Ie, with your KJs, the board comes K82 5 T rainbow and your opponent has AK.) You’ll get the point pretty quick! I did this to stop myself from calling every limped pot from the SB. Now, I note the $3 I just saved myself and count it as a win.

 

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

30 minutes ago, Lurch said:

Logically, no, you should never make a decision on what cards you _feel_ will come. When I catch myself thinking that way, I know it’s time to reset or leave. We’re spending all of our time patiently waiting to take advantage of such players... why throw it away falling into the same trap?

 

By the way, when you notice yourself recognizing “damn, I would have hit! Should have called”, it’s time to force yourself to start counting every time you would have missed. Take special note of how often you would then have been sucked into losing a huge pot. (Ie, with your KJs, the board comes K82 5 T rainbow and your opponent has AK.) You’ll get the point pretty quick! I did this to stop myself from calling every limped pot from the SB. Now, I note the $3 I just saved myself and count it as a win.

 

Yeah, I'm the kind of guy that does that too.  Count my misses and then pat myself on the back. I was just up so big, I definitely thought about it, but folding was a sound poker play in that I knew I was behind, but it was a hand that is easily discarded post flop as well.

[TXSooner518 2438]

Yeah, you have to make the right play at the time based on the info you have at the time, regardless of "feel", and regardless of what cards come. You can be "glad" you folded AJ in a tough spot when it comes 954, or "annoyed" you folded when it comes JJ3, but neither of those flops made the fold "good" or "bad", the info you had at the time makes it good or bad.

I couldn't really decipher the action from your post, but one other thing to consider with hands like KJs or QJs is that when you are deep you can frequently play them for raises, not for top pair value, but as suited connectors. If you do that, it's critical that you remember we aren't trying to play big pots with one pair, and have to be able to fold one pair when it is beaten.

Pretty sure in your hand, you were SB, which makes it the hardest to get value of suited connectors, being OOP, but just something to consider when $900 deep, those hands that can make big straights and flushes have value beyond top pair.

Edited December 17, 2018 by TXSooner518

[bigup2dahorns 3343]

 
I did this to stop myself from calling every limped pot from the SB. Now, I note the $3 I just saved myself and count it as a win.
 

It took me awhile to make this small improvement to my game but it definitely is the way to go over the longer term. The whole “any two cards” mentality and “it’s only $1 or $3” adds up over time but also can put you in a bad spot, playing out of position as well. Some of the bigger pots I lost while learning this lesson were limped pots, some in the SB. Now I tread very carefully.

[Lurch 5922]

I think you have to be careful not to confuse playing deep with having newfound freedom to play a shitload more hands. Another trap I am very careful to avoid.

[BERT 4358]

28 minutes ago, Lurch said:

I think you have to be careful not to confuse playing deep with having newfound freedom to play a shitload more hands. Another trap I am very careful to avoid.

This gets me in trouble a lot. I'll get up quite a bit and try and open my range, but it's usually against the wrong damn players and before i know it i'm back to even or worse, rebuying. 

[BERT 4358]

Had a long session yesterday. Played really bad early on. Like calling or shoving with top pair and the pre flop raiser would have an over pair. Shit i know better than to do but i still do it. Slow play a flopped set of 10's on a flush draw board. Should've shoved on the turn and didn't, let the guy catch his flush for cheap. Terribly played by me. Go through $500 quick that way. So i have a choice to just go home or buckle down, get $500 more and play better. I chose to play better.

So i grind my ass back to being even. No really exciting hands to get me there just trying to take small/medium pots down early. So i have probably $1100ish in front of me when i get KQ off and call the button straddle of $10. There's 3 of us in the pot (4 handed at this time, it's late) and i'm in the cutoff. Flop comes Q26 rainbow. Checked to me and i bet $25, one guy calls and now i'm last to act. Turn is another Q, checks to me and i bet $45 and this guy calls. Him calling that has me thinking he has some bullshit Q and possibly already has a full house. River is a K, perfect, and this time he leads out for $25(weird) and i tank thinking about how much will this guy call off. He has roughly $160 behind so i put in $200 and he calls and shows AQ. I got lucky as fuck!! But i guess that needs to happen from time to time.

Ended up winning $340 after all that time. I was happy to say the least. 

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

2 hours ago, TXSooner518 said:

Yeah, you have to make the right play at the time based on the info you have at the time, regardless of "feel", and regardless of what cards come. You can be "glad" you folded AJ in a tough spot when it comes 954, or "annoyed" you folded when it comes JJ3, but neither of those flops made the fold "good" or "bad", the info you had at the time makes it good or bad.

I couldn't really decipher the action from your post, but one other thing to consider with hands like KJs or QJs is that when you are deep you can frequently play them for raises, not for top pair value, but as suited connectors. If you do that, it's critical that you remember we aren't trying to play big pots with one pair, and have to be able to fold one pair when it is beaten.

Pretty sure in your hand, you were SB, which makes it the hardest to get value of suited connectors, being OOP, but just something to consider when $900 deep, those hands that can make big straights and flushes have value beyond top pair.

Yep. Would’ve been a huge hand for not a lot of money initially.  Oh well

[pearlandhorn 3269]

On 12/8/2018 at 11:19 PM, Lurch said:

92k at 1500/2500/2500

Folds to me w As9c in SB. I make it 6k vs very solid middle aged black dude that plays all of our big tourneys. He’s been beating me up a bit and has 100k. He pulls his BB back and thinks a bit like he’s going to raise, but then just calls.

Ah 9h 8c. Sweet. I check to him, knowing he’ll bet with anything in this spot. Sure enough, he throws out 7k quickly. I’m not thrilled with the potential draw and decide a check raise to 20k will make him pay to chase. He makes it 45k. WTF? I decide he must have a mega draw (JThh, etc) and go ahead and shove.

He snaps w 88. FUCK.

Out.

I'm not nearly as seasoned as you are Lurch and I most likely would have taken this line.  However, given how wet the board is, I'd be afraid that it would check back on the flop if the BB just wanted to take a free card.  In my opinion, a raise was in order after you checked the flop regardless.  Gotta charge them to draw.

[Lurch 5922]

Totally reasonable and I’m leading out 95% vs pretty much anyone else. This guy, though, had been very aggressive with me and a check raise not only gets me more value than the check/fold I expected, but importantly it also protects some of my checks in future hands with him. Ie, he may slow down his betting in this situation vs me if he knows there is a very real possibility I’ll check raise him.

[VolenteHawk 495]

On 12/8/2018 at 11:48 PM, ztejas said:

If you know he's going to bet with anything, regardless of his pocket, it seems like you are losing control of the table in that scenario. You're basically admitting you have no idea what he has. 

I'm being pedantic and I apologize, but if a player like that wants to keep throwing chips into the oblivion you might as well raise him when you have a good hand, fold when you don't, or reverse it and make it unpredictable so he can't tell when you're bluffing*. Use his tendency against him - don't be prisoner to it. 

Well, we can learn about his cards by leading out, but against most of his range we're only going to learn that they sucked when he mucks them...and we've won the minimum amount possible with top two pair.  If he raised back at us, we haven't much delineated between hitting a set mine, AK, and a reasonable semi-bluff on a draw...which kindof matters given what we hold.

To Sooner's point, his pre-flop range is annihilated...generally speaking, we want him betting into us as often as possible and don't much care what he has.  Sometimes, when he hits a set we can't sniff out, that will screw us.  We pay for that by dragging his pot buying attempts, missed draws, and overvaluing AK-ish.

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by VolenteHawk

[AUS-97HORN 11757]

and this is why he's considered one of the best in the world.  

He had more than enough chips to afford the call..... but he gives it up.

 

Im calling there almost every single time.

 

 

[spystud13 2371]

I dug his Pauly D after the turn. 

[Chewbacca 7767]

Yeah, DN is the best in the business with that shit.  I'm probably paying that dude off every time.

[Lurch 5922]

The number of times he’s been recorded correctly identifying out loud his opponent’s hands is insane. He’s one of the greatest ever for a reason

[deech 2272]

Snap call.  What a nit.  LOL

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

DN is a beast, one of my favs

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

3 hours ago, Lurch said:

The number of times he’s been recorded correctly identifying out loud his opponent’s hands is insane. He’s one of the greatest ever for a reason

I think I saw him on ESPN call someone on j/8.

[Modessit 5598]

My wife is always amazed when he says "here comes the 4 of diamonds" and the next card is the 4 of diamonds.

[ztejas 43411]

On 12/17/2018 at 10:10 AM, TXSooner518 said:

Yeah, you have to make the right play at the time based on the info you have at the time, regardless of "feel", and regardless of what cards come. You can be "glad" you folded AJ in a tough spot when it comes 954, or "annoyed" you folded when it comes JJ3, but neither of those flops made the fold "good" or "bad", the info you had at the time makes it good or bad.

I couldn't really decipher the action from your post, but one other thing to consider with hands like KJs or QJs is that when you are deep you can frequently play them for raises, not for top pair value, but as suited connectors. If you do that, it's critical that you remember we aren't trying to play big pots with one pair, and have to be able to fold one pair when it is beaten.

Pretty sure in your hand, you were SB, which makes it the hardest to get value of suited connectors, being OOP, but just something to consider when $900 deep, those hands that can make big straights and flushes have value beyond top pair.

I always feel that once I've folded that's it. Maybe I folded because of my cards, maybe I folded because of my stack, maybe I folded to bluff.

Regardless, I try not to let whatever cards come up after that influence my next decision. To me, it's always more about how opponents are playing the table. I'm more interested in seeing what the players still in the hand do with the flop, turn, river, because I think that affects my next play much more than what cards came up. 

I'm definitely not good enough to play percentages and odds to try and guess what card/cards are going to come up next.

As you said, sometimes you make the right call and lose the hand. That's def what burns me the most. It's easier for me to live with flopping when I would have picked up a 3 of a kind or straight or wev - just because it doesn't matter- I was out of the hand anyway. 

[Lurch 5922]

As you said, sometimes you make the right call and lose the hand. That's def what burns me the most. It's easier for me to live with flopping when I would have picked up a 3 of a kind or straight or wev - just because it doesn't matter- I was out of the hand anyway. 

I know it’s easier said then done, but don’t let that bother you! If I agreed to pay you $1 for every role of the dice 1-5, but you pay me $1 for every 6, are you going to be burning the 15% of the time when I hit my 6? Of course not! You’re going to congratulate me, tell me I’m running hot and beg me to go again!

THATS the mindset you want to embrace in such situations

[ztejas 43411]

5 minutes ago, Lurch said:

 

I know it’s easier said then done, but don’t let that bother you! If I agreed to pay you $1 for every role of the dice 1-5, but you pay me $1 for every 6, are you going to be burning the 15% of the time when I hit my 6? Of course not! You’re going to congratulate me, tell me I’m running hot and beg me to go again!

THATS the mindset you want to embrace in such situations

 

Sure. But it sucks when it kicks you off the table.

The last free roll I was at (I'm poor) I was a hand from making the last table and lost a good amount of my chips on a river I win probably 80% of the time. 

I guess what I'm saying is when you need a 1-5 and a 6 comes up it stings.

But shit that's poker.

[Modessit 5598]

You mean like everyone limping to you in the BB so you get a free flop with 64o and the flop is 664 and you're trying to figure out how to pull the most chips when the SB shoves and has you covered so you call to see he has 83 off and the turn is an 8 and the river is an 8? Yeah, that happened.

 

 

[housious 468]

That’s a lot of words without any punctuation. But yeah, that sucks.

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

If opponent bets 20k Dan likely raises there.  Yep bet was too big.  

[Modessit 5598]

Yeah, he said he would have already thrown in chips on a smaller bet.

 

I liked how he talked thru the band - "okay, he called my raise on the flop, then again on the turn..." as he went thru the possible hands that would do and that would eventually result in a 40k raise. Basically narrowed it down to J10 or boat - or bluff - and figured he wouldn't just call the turn with J10 so it must be boat. Doubt I could have laid it down.

 

For you pros, if Dan bets big on the turn instead of checking, can the other guy fold his set?

 

 

[Lurch 5922]

Bet size matters I suppose, but it’s pretty difficult to lay down a set before river because you’re always drawing to a boat. He had 10 outs to a boat or quads, so 20% to catch up on river and that’s only if he thinks Daniel has a straight. He’s more likely to have two pair or one pair w straight draw

[Barry_McCokiner 160]

1 hour ago, Modessit said:

Yeah, he said he would have already thrown in chips on a smaller bet.

 

I liked how he talked thru the band - "okay, he called my raise on the flop, then again on the turn..." as he went thru the possible hands that would do and that would eventually result in a 40k raise. Basically narrowed it down to J10 or boat - or bluff - and figured he wouldn't just call the turn with J10 so it must be boat. Doubt I could have laid it down.

 

For you pros, if Dan bets big on the turn instead of checking, can the other guy fold his set?

 

 

I like talking through my hands, things just add up better.

 

I loved this hand from the stone ages.

 

Arieh vs Murphy

Edited December 19, 2018 by Barry_McCokiner