Prioritizing the Congressional Investigations into Trump

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

Where the hell do the democrats start?  

[Upgrayedd 5,804]

With her emails?

[lemonlime 5,503]

Emoluments.

[Upgrayedd 5,804]

Anything that causes the release of his tax returns.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

I think the democrats should focus on the goal of swaying public opinion (Republicans) towards the idea of removing Trump.  

They should outline a slow methodical path in exposing Trump’s corruption that resonates with the American public. 

Start calling witnesses that have already been interviewed by the Mueller team for obstruction or Russia ties.  That way they can’t get away with lying so easily.

I know the Briskets will say none of this matters but it’s worth a shot. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[SmokeyTheBear 5,562]

Start with tax returns. Politically, it is easy to be aggressive on it as it has been a common ask of Presidents. Then start unraveling things from there. Shouldn't be much of a leap to start drawing out tax crimes, mob ties, Russia ties, etc. 

[Biff Tannen 45,491]

One fingernail at a time.

[hpslugga 4,043]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

I think the democrats should focus on the goal of swaying public opinion (Republicans) towards the idea of removing Trump.  

They should outline a slow methodical path in exposing Trump’s corruption that resonates with the American public. 

Start calling witnesses that have already been interviewed by the Mueller team for obstruction or Russia ties.  That way they can’t get away with lying so easily.

I know the Briskets will say none of this matters but it’s worth a shot. 

Dude, you don’t understand.

Trump’s following isn’t rooted in politics. A political following has an element of combustibility, meaning it could all break down and explode given the right circumstances and no politician is above that.

Trump? His following is based in faith, which is the most dishonest root of a position that is possible to take. His defenders will defensively defend him by 1) asserting claims that are completely without evidence and 2) argue entirely in spite of evidence. They have a name for that in religious circles. It’s called “apologetics.” How does one get involved in apologetics? Simple: become hopelessly indoctrinated towards such a ridiculous cause. No amount of evidence Robert Mueller can show will convince trump’s base that this is anything other than a “witch hunt.”

[GhostOfTomJoad 9,307]

Slugga just saved me some typing. Apologetics is a perfect description for Trumpkins. A friend of mine--who sports a 'Taxes = Theft' bumper sticker--stands LOUDLY behind Trump's stance that he 1) can't release his taxes due to being audited (a lie), and 2) any taxes Trump avoided paying through illegal actions is a good thing & proof that he outsmarted the system. 

She's white knighted Trump. Any evidence of his wrongdoing is proof that the Deep State wants him eliminated as a message to all citizens: obey or be destroyed.

[Tuco 5,076]

I would focus on general fuckery of the Executive Branch, rather than specifically going after Trump.  The Mueller report will drown out anything they are able to get out of Trump.  And, considering the House investigations/testimonies inevitably slide into obvious partisanship, with both sides saying stupid shit, the Republicans will be able to paint the Mueller investigation as being partisan.  If the Mueller report comes back not too bad on Trump, then you circle back around to the Trump specific stuff like tax-returns and emoluments.  I think doing so now just muddles the water with stuff most people already assume to be true. 

My number 1 through 10 would be the investigation of the family separation and the treatment of migrant children in ICE/BP camps.  It's not an issue that law enforcement would otherwise investigate.  It's an issue that I think is generally favorable to the Democrats, and may become much more so as additional details come out.  And...and here's a big thing... it's a human rights issue that the Democrats could drive positive change in.  I'm not a Democrat because I think a donkey is a cooler mascot than an elephant.  There are substantial differences between the parties, and this one.  This isn't about driving Trump's approval rating down or winning the Senate in 2020.  It's about being on the right side of history, and, more than that, it's about accelerating the time frame in which that history plays out.  And, hopefully, it's about exposing the ugly repercussions of the anti-immigrant rhetoric and eventually driving it out of any viable political campaign.  

After that, I'd look at the potential scandals for the various Secretaries, including the sweetheart deal for the contractor in the aftermath of the Puerto Rico Hurricane Maria.  

[hpslugga 4,043]

42 minutes ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

She's white knighted Trump. Any evidence of his wrongdoing is proof that the Deep State wants him eliminated as a message to all citizens: obey or be destroyed.

See and that’s how you know it’s religious in nature: its unfalsifiability. 

“There’s evidence against Trump? DEEP STATE!!!” 

“Spicer said something about the inauguration that wasn’t true? ALTERNATIVE FACTS!!!“

”The media presented definitive evidence that the Wall is a total fraud at every level? FAKE NEWS”

It’s all about these stupid two-word phrases that they think are loaded with intelligence, but all they really do is reflect how massively idiotic they really are. Of course they can’t accept that, yet they’re the ones calling other people “snowflakes!”

[TwiceHorn 31,264]

If the dems really want to do something different, they will hold any hearings outside public view and generate reports and pursue special counsel where appropriate. 

 

Otherwise, the hearings are nauseating political theater that distracts them from doing their jobs. They already don't do them, they don't need another excuse. 

[TexArcher 37,508]

Start with tax returns, since they can subpoena those on Day 1.

And I expect the Mueller investigation to drop bombs soon after that.  I think he's had the bombs for a long time and all he's been waiting on is the blue House that will actually give a shit about, you know, treason.

Emoluments will be the icing on the cake and an effective way to show the American people that the Republicans, those self-proclaimed defenders of the Constitution, didn't give half a shit about the rule of law for two years.

Edited December 31, 2018 by TexArcher

[yaqdum 182]

1 hour ago, hpslugga said:

Trump’s following isn’t rooted in politics. A political following has an element of combustibility, meaning it could all break down and explode given the right circumstances and no politician is above that.

Trump? His following is based in faith, which is the most dishonest root of a position that is possible to take. His defenders will defensively defend him by 1) asserting claims that are completely without evidence and 2) argue entirely in spite of evidence. They have a name for that in religious circles. It’s called “apologetics.” How does one get involved in apologetics? Simple: become hopelessly indoctrinated towards such a ridiculous cause. No amount of evidence Robert Mueller can show will convince trump’s base that this is anything other than a “witch hunt.”

i think we all agree with that.  forget trying to change those minds.  nothing can reach them once faith has taken hold.

concentrate on edifying the rest.  there is a large block of people who are in various stages of being torn.  nail them down with the gravity of the crimes.  the untouchables are a smaller percentage than they might seem.

[ndawg 1,242]

The plan shouldn't be to go after the die hard fanatics first. Rather, congress should aim to wear away at those adjacent to the die hards -- these are the people who have been susceptible to buying in to the "both sides" nonsense that the fanatics spout, but have never really got behind Trump themselves.

The first thing the House needs to do is stop letting Trump control the news cycle. That means they need to go on the attack, and they need to anticipate Trump's counterpunches, always bringing the focus back to Trump's criminal behaviour.

[Tuco 5,076]

4 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

If the dems really want to do something different, they will hold any hearings outside public view and generate reports and pursue special counsel where appropriate. 

 

Otherwise, the hearings are nauseating political theater that distracts them from doing their jobs. They already don't do them, they don't need another excuse. 

I don't want to rely on Americans reading Congressional reports to change our current direction, nor do I want to rely on the media providing reasonably accurate summaries of those reports.  On the shit with migrant kids, put that on TV.  Stick the public's nose in it.  We did this.   

[TwiceHorn 31,264]

1 minute ago, Tuco said:

I don't want to rely on Americans reading Congressional reports to change our current direction, nor do I want to rely on the media providing reasonably accurate summaries of those reports.  On the shit with migrant kids, put that on TV.  Stick the public's nose in it.  We did this.   

But the average American pays no attention to this crap. They should be geared towards generating evidence for criminal prosecution or impeachment. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

1 hour ago, hpslugga said:

Dude, you don’t understand.

Trump’s following isn’t rooted in politics. A political following has an element of combustibility, meaning it could all break down and explode given the right circumstances and no politician is above that.

Trump? His following is based in faith, which is the most dishonest root of a position that is possible to take. His defenders will defensively defend him by 1) asserting claims that are completely without evidence and 2) argue entirely in spite of evidence. They have a name for that in religious circles. It’s called “apologetics.” How does one get involved in apologetics? Simple: become hopelessly indoctrinated towards such a ridiculous cause. No amount of evidence Robert Mueller can show will convince trump’s base that this is anything other than a “witch hunt.”

Trump's base isn't as monolithic as you think. 

1. the Cult 45 members that will never be swayed, I'd put them at 15-20%. 

2.  the 401k Trumpers that don't care what Trump does as long as the portfolio is earning (5-10%).

3.  the team Republican Trumpers that are supportive because of the R by his name.  They don't like the tweets, the lying, or even the agenda but they will tolerate it up to a certain point because they're Republicans. (10-20%)

Just need to start chipping away at two and three. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[yaqdum 182]

8 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Trump's base isn't as monolithic as you think. 

1. the Cult 45 members that will never be swayed, I'd put them at 15-20%. 

2.  the 401k Trumpers that don't care what Trump does as long as the portfolio is earning (5-10%).

3.  the team Republican Trumpers that are supportive because of the R by his name.  They don't like the tweets, the lying, or even the agenda but they will tolerate it up to a certain point because they're Republicans. (10-20%)

Just need to start chipping away at two and three. 

whale's head.

[Tuco 5,076]

16 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

But the average American pays no attention to this crap. They should be geared towards generating evidence for criminal prosecution or impeachment. 

I take the opposite view of Congressional hearings.  Ideally they are used to understand where the failings in the system are.  That way they can inform themselves (and the public) to make the system better, either by adjusting the laws or by providing more resources to execute the laws.  They are horrible for any kind of criminal investigation.  Yes, they can (and should) provide Congressional oversight of the Executive.  But, in this case, there is already a significant investigation of Trump.  The emoluments issue is the only one I think is worth a second one, but the criminality will be tough.  That's a subject that public awareness is more important than an evidence trail. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

Did anyone live through Watergate?  Wasn’t it the public hearings that opened the floodgates towards Nixon’s resignation? 

[lemonlime 5,503]

Emoluments.  Public hearings.  The Senate GOP will do nothing.  But at least there's a public record to shame them with.  Along with whatever Mueller finds.  Make republicans' trump support as uncomfortable as it can be.  Expose how shameless these fucksticks are.

Edit to add: there should also be public hearings on kiddy concentration camps.  Expose these fuckstains.

Edited December 31, 2018 by lemonlime

[shnsajax 3,589]

What kind of fight do you expect for Trump's taxes as I am assuming there will be one?

[pyrohornIII 4,809]

45 minutes ago, ndawg said:

The plan shouldn't be to go after the die hard fanatics first. Rather, congress should aim to wear away at those adjacent to the die hards -- these are the people who have been susceptible to buying in to the "both sides" nonsense that the fanatics spout, but have never really got behind Trump themselves.

The first thing the House needs to do is stop letting Trump control the news cycle. That means they need to go on the attack, and they need to anticipate Trump's counterpunches, always bringing the focus back to Trump's criminal behaviour.

Yes, I agree with this.  I think that the public is hungry for facts now, and the House needs to uncover more and more each day and add them to a running summary. Eventually, the crimes by all involved will add up enough to break most backs except for the staunchest Trumpkins.

2 hours ago, hpslugga said:

Dude, you don’t understand.

Trump’s following isn’t rooted in politics. A political following has an element of combustibility, meaning it could all break down and explode given the right circumstances and no politician is above that.

Trump? His following is based in faith, which is the most dishonest root of a position that is possible to take. His defenders will defensively defend him by 1) asserting claims that are completely without evidence and 2) argue entirely in spite of evidence. They have a name for that in religious circles. It’s called “apologetics.” How does one get involved in apologetics? Simple: become hopelessly indoctrinated towards such a ridiculous cause. No amount of evidence Robert Mueller can show will convince trump’s base that this is anything other than a “witch hunt.”

Some of these same apologetics are the ones that insist on creation over evolution, some even going so far as flat earthers.  They look to be contrary, just for the sake of it.  They want to come out the other side and be right, so they can tell everyone how dumb we are and smart they were to see it all so clearly to start with.  Hence Qturds. 

51 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

Start with tax returns, since they can subpoena those on Day 1.

And I expect the Mueller investigation to drop bombs soon after that.  I think he's had the bombs for a long time and all he's been waiting on is the blue House that will actually give a shit about, you know, treason.

Emoluments will be the icing on the cake and an effective way to show the American people that the Republicans, those self-proclaimed defenders of the Constitution, didn't give half a shit about the rule of law for two years.

If you want to harm Trump, you destroy his myth, you expose him, like Toto did with the Wizard of Oz.  Lay it out step by step, the failed businesses, the bailouts by laundering, and finish with the emoluments.  But above all, show that every deal he has made has been a bust, that his wealth is not close to a billion, never has been, and in fact under his control his wealth declined considerably.

35 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Trump's base isn't as monolithic as you think. 

1. the Cult 45 members that will never be swayed, I'd put them at 15-20%. 

2.  the 401k Trumpers that don't care what Trump does as long as the portfolio is earning (5-10%).

3.  the team Republican Trumpers that are supportive because of the R by his name.  They don't like the tweets, the lying, or even the agenda but they will tolerate it up to a certain point because they're Republicans. (10-20%)

Just need to start chipping away at two and three. 

There are a lot of people out there who are tired of all this.  Have been from the start.  They don't have time for politics, its boring and who do you believe anyway?  Some of these people are in your last two groups and a lot are just out there not caring, just going along with what peers and family say.  

Their interest levels are on golf, hunting, fishing, sports, soap operas, celebrity gossip.  You find a way to dumb down the findings in a daily briefing, and start a webpage somewhere that keeps a running list of the facts and how they play together, then you have an in to them.  Like one of those big crime walls with all the threads linking clues to suspects.  Most are loathe to waste any time trying to put the pieces together and ignore everything, figuring there is nothing that can sink our great country.  But they do love a good soap.  A lot of them were raised on Dallas, remember?

 

[TwiceHorn 31,264]

I just tend to think the public notice function is overrated, particularly in comparison to the time spent by a legislative body. And it is too susceptible to politicization due to being accessed by most of the public via their selected bias sources. 

The subpoena power is overrated because contempt of Congress is an unwieldy and ineffective "stick."  Also a subpoena to a sitting president presents the same type separation of powers issues as an indictment by the judicial branch, only probably magnified by the susceptibility to political manipulation. 

Edited December 31, 2018 by TwiceHorn

[lemonlime 5,503]

Nothing's going to happen to trump regardless.  When this is all over, though, there needs to be clear public record of how utterly contemptible and spineless Graham, Paul, Ryan, McConnell, Sasse, McCarthy, Collins, Murkowski and so on are.

[RomaVicta 29,775]

I was going to put this on the indictment thread until I saw this thread. In the shitstorm gathering on the horizon, its malodorous volume reaching high towards the firmament, I hope the possibility of market manipulation by Trump is taken up.

I've wondered if he were doing it in smaller ways before when he would name different companies in his rants about how good things are. I mused aloud here about how attacking the Fed Chair would have such a predictably negative impact on the market that fortunes could be made shorting stocks that would otherwise be unlikely to decline in value.

Trump introduces an artificial and unprecedented doubt about the fed. It seems off the cuff like most of rants seem to be. However, he surrounded himself with Wall Street advisers. He also surrounded himself with crooks and con men. These sets of people must have some overlap. It's inevitable.

Imagine Trump presented with an easy way to make a lot of money in a few days. His henchmen know ways to profit and hide the way they do it. Trump thinks he knows more than these idiots and likely orders Kushner and Junior to overplay their hands. There would be a money trail.

I don't know much about Wall Street other than what you pick up in the news and movies. It does seem that once investigators from SDNY or SEC turn their attention on someone, they're really good at sifting through the deceptions to find their perp.

I'll predict, and I rarely predict anything, that either an indictment or news story emerges in the next 18 months about how the market crash was prompted for money. Likely someone in Trump's camp fumbles the off shore accounts or just sets them up in such a way that an industrious child could figure them out.

Trump will be discovered to have been told that the market would recover quickly and not damage his claim to economic genius. It just also seems so easy to me.

I wouldn't be surprised if a pattern of such activity is also uncovered. I suspect law enforcement or reporters more in tune than I am have already begun looking into this. 

[ADHD 28]

You can investigate Trump for what he will do as you investigate him.

[hpslugga 4,043]

1 hour ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

Trump's base isn't as monolithic as you think. 

1. the Cult 45 members that will never be swayed, I'd put them at 15-20%. 

2.  the 401k Trumpers that don't care what Trump does as long as the portfolio is earning (5-10%).

3.  the team Republican Trumpers that are supportive because of the R by his name.  They don't like the tweets, the lying, or even the agenda but they will tolerate it up to a certain point because they're Republicans. (10-20%)

Just need to start chipping away at two and three. 

You can’t chip away at 3 for the same reason I just illustrated: no possible, available evidence could ever move them to change their position. Yeah it could be that they dislike Trump, but the R next to his name compels them either to defend it or stay silent, and that’s just as bad.

You say “up to a certain point,” but i guarantee you that republicans who are against him were already so. Bill Kristol, for example, isn’t a reformed Trumpanzee: he was against him from the start. Now, Kristol and his ilk come with their own baggage, and they’d even go as far as supporting impeachment for that reason, but again, they’ve taken that position from the start and you don’t need to waste time trying to convince them of anything.

The difference between them and you is that while you both support impeachment, they’re salivating over the prospect of President Pence.

[yaqdum 182]

4 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

You can’t chip away at 3 for the same reason I just illustrated: no possible, available evidence could ever move them to change their position. Yeah it could be that they dislike Trump, but the R next to his name compels them either to defend it or stay silent, and that’s just as bad.

i doubt very seriously that that is right.  i think you are still talking about the core group nutballs.  the majority of hardcore republicans are probably americans first.  the nutballs have never been americans first.  to reach the hardcore republicans you have to hit them hard, and that is coming.   soon but not sooner.

[atomheartbevo 89,409]

Anything that causes him to just constantly melt down on Twitter, more so than usual. Maybe he threatens Pelosi and Schumer, or directs the DOJ to something illegal, etc.   

I want to see the full second-half meltdown.  Not this putzing around in the first quarter type-of-meltdown we’ve been seeing.   

[Thetexashammer 1,062]

The result of these investigations is going to be Trump's reelection. It's the opposite of "a better vision for America", which is what the Dem candidate will be trying to sell. It's just getting down in the mud with him.

We have an electoral process to handle this.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Thetexashammer

[hpslugga 4,043]

46 minutes ago, yaqdum said:

the majority of hardcore republicans are probably americans first. 

There’s no reason to assume that

[hobbes2702 12,799]

1 hour ago, Thetexashammer said:

The result of these investigations is going to be Trump's reelection. It's the opposite of "a better vision for America", which is what the Dem candidate will be trying to sell. It's just getting down in the mud with him.

We have an electoral process to handle this.

I think holding people accountable to the law is a pretty good vision for America.

[kevwun 15,624]

1 hour ago, Thetexashammer said:

We have an electoral process to handle this.

You should remind several GOP state governments about that.

[Thetexashammer 1,062]

21 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I think holding people accountable to the law is a pretty good vision for America.

Good luck with that. You have my blessing and encouragement.

[Biff Tannen 45,491]

2 hours ago, Thetexashammer said:

The result of these investigations is going to be Trump's reelection. It's the opposite of "a better vision for America", which is what the Dem candidate will be trying to sell. It's just getting down in the mud with him.

We have an electoral process to handle this.

You will be right there voting for him, investigations or not.  Don't try and pretend otherwise.

[Thetexashammer 1,062]

15 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

You will be right there voting for him, investigations or not.  Don't try and pretend otherwise.

I'm not. But I'm not voting for him, I'm voting against Democrats who are consistently a threat to the economy and freedom. Republicans are also a threat to the economy and to freedom, but slightly less so. Plus, Dems don't mind putting babies in blenders, which I just really find off putting.

What are your thoughts on the investigations that I welcome so warmly?

Edited December 31, 2018 by Thetexashammer

[ADHD 28]

The dark web scuttlebutt is that Trump is already indicted, albeit a sealed indictment. Meaning he will have to remain president to survive criminal indictment. Or fanagle a Pence pardon.

So, you bet your sweet ass there's gonna be hearings. Leading up to and after the Mueller report. It's gonna be another Watergate. A grand reality show.

Btw, if the nude selfie is of Trump, we'll someday get a look-see at his scuttlebutt. If it's Milenia or Ivanka, we'll get to see some sweet ass.

[burntorangebongos 10,681]

2 hours ago, hpslugga said:

There’s no reason to assume that

We have to reconcile with the "country before party" republicans at some point. They can cross over to vote Dem and we can help them primary Trump and those politicians that are compromised by Russian/dark money.

I say we have to because we need to come together and all be adults. Demand that of each other,  and never let a game show conman flub his way into the presidency again with stupid shit like"let's build a wall and make Mexico pay for it because we are afraid of non-whites".  If we are better than that, we need to fix what is wrong with us and also reconcile with each other and hold ourselves accountable. It is what we owe the younger generations. It is what we owe to ourselves. The press and the people of the United States let a Trump presidency happen. It is on us to use the experience and move forward together. 

[Biff Tannen 45,491]

14 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

I'm not. But I'm not voting for him, I'm voting against Democrats

So Gary Johnson then?

[horn4life 3,755]

Simplest thing to do is simply recall all the witnesses that testified to GOP softball questions, under oath and under subpeona in an ACTUAL investigation with public testimony.  Simply get them all on record as liars.  Simply put I would guess every single person from the Trump Administration who testified to Congress lied.

Bring them back to testify, then send certified copies of their "before and after" congressional testimony to Mueller.

The other low hanging fruit would be to investigate the Trump Inauguration. Just ask for an itemized accounting for the first thing the Trump Administration actually managed.  It will be a clear that like every other time Trump has gotten his hands on "other people's money" he has used it to enrich himself corruptly.

 

 

[hobbes2702 12,799]

20 minutes ago, Thetexashammer said:

I'm not. But I'm not voting for him, I'm voting against Democrats who are consistently a threat to the economy and freedom. Republicans are also a threat to the economy and to freedom, but slightly less so. Plus, Dems don't mind putting babies in blenders, which I just really find off putting.

What are your thoughts on the investigations that I welcome so warmly?

Really stupid distinction you tried to make there. Explain how democrats are a threat to your freedom, especially more so than the party that wants to ramp prison sentences for weed. We know you’re simply lying as per usual but at least try to stay anchored in reality.

Yea the babies in blenders thing is pretty stupid as well when there are kids dying in a prison at the border.

 

Edited December 31, 2018 by hobbes2702

[ADHD 28]

I've watched two relevant documentaries lately: A) Frontline about Putin B) CNN documentary about Mueller

The upshot is this. If Mueller wants Trump, Trump is a cooked goose. He will get his man. Like a Terminator class android in a FBI director suit.

Putin is a Soviet warrior. He wants to destroy America. And he will similarly stop at nothing to turn the United States into a Russian satellite full of Oligarch loot.

The GOP is committing treason and Trump might as well be a Russian agent, and this is the moral component which guides Mueller relentlessly.

Putin and Mueller are playing chess. Like Bobby Fischer vs Spassky.

Trump is a pawn piece in the middle about to be crushed.

[ADHD 28]

This will make a great movie someday soon.

Moral men vs immoral ones.