Donald Trump 2019

[TornACL 7675]

Just wait til we're in another civil war and dipshit white trash are desperately trying to flee to Mexico, and are told by the Federales to go fuck themselves and turn around. 

[David Dennison 18652]

2 minutes ago, retread said:

^ Imagine the brainstorming sessions that Rs have behind closed doors with a nice glass of wine. How do we keep this going?

The only way they can keep it going is to become more racist, more insular, and instill more fear in their base of supporters. They've been doing that for over 40 years now. They have no choice. They've done nothing to expand their base and welcome new voices into the party. It is a party based on white grievance and victimhood. It works every so often, but not always. One of these days it won't work at all and you'll know that America has changed forever. That is their biggest fear from an electoral standpoint because it means their tactics cannot work. The party will have to change if it wants to keep enriching the people it really works for: the wealthy.

[JimmyJames 12271]

8 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

No, he doesn't understand that. He's the dumbest person to ever serve as president. He's a bona fide moron and people support him because they are deplorable. This country is filled with awful, racist morons who are terrified that their way of life is threatened. And they should be. America is changing and they are going to be left behind, no matter how many Donald Trumps they elect. 

This is why the Republican Party is actively trying to subvert our democracy. They see the writing on the wall. 

[David Dennison 18652]

Just now, JimmyJames said:

This is why the Republican Party is actively trying to subvert our democracy. They see the writing on the wall. 

Absolutely. But they can't stop it. It's what makes me giddy. White people are losing and I think it's hilarious.

[WhatTheBuck 28705]

26 minutes ago, Ten Bears said:

Does he really not understand that North Korea's "Wall" is to keep their own people in?

 

I assume that's a rhetorical question. But, just in case, of course he doesn't. 

[Fozzz 152]

53 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

Here for the FDR was just as bad as Stalin takes.

Begging the question here. 

[Brisketexan 104557]

Absolutely. But they can't stop it. It's what makes me giddy. White people are losing and I think it's hilarious.

It’s not hilarious at all. Because they’ve decided that if they can’t have this constitutional Republic, nobody can. They’ll destroy it before they see it fall into the hands of the mud people. And they’re well along the way to doing just that.

[David Dennison 18652]

Just now, Fozzz said:

Begging the question here. 

It was really Truman who was as bad as Stalin.

Nukes and stuff.

[JimmyJames 12271]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Absolutely. But they can't stop it. It's what makes me giddy. White people are losing and I think it's hilarious.

Not all white people. Poor rural and blue collar whites have been losing for going on 40 years now. Thanks primarily due to republican backed policies, although dems played their part too.

Whites in the big cities though are doing just fine and since they primarily vote dem, the rural and blue collar whites vote for monorail con men like trump as some sort of revenge. The republicans are the party of nihilism so trump fits right in there. 

[Fozzz 152]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

It was really Truman who was as bad as Stalin.

Nukes and stuff.

I reject the entire framing. Those Kulaks...they had it coming. 

[David Dennison 18652]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

It’s not hilarious at all. Because they e decided that if they can’t have this constitutional Republic, nobody can. They’ll destroy it before they see it fall into the hands of the mud people. And they’re well along the way to doing just that.

I disagree. Democrats will be in charge again and much of the rot of this presidency will be undone with a stroke of a pen because they couldn't get any actual legislation passed. It's a house of cards that can be easily undone by the next Democratic president.

[retread 2951]

52 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The only way they can keep it going is to become more racist, more insular, and instill more fear in their base of supporters.  

41 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It’s not hilarious at all. Because they’ve decided that if they can’t have this constitutional Republic, nobody can. They’ll destroy it before they see it fall into the hands of the mud people. And they’re well along the way to doing just that.

Yep. The baseline assumption is that the Ds cannot be allowed to retake the Senate or WH. Yes elections should represent the voters' will during normal times, but we are in very dangerous times with the marauding hordes of MS-13 infiltrating our country and the Ds trying to foist Socialsim on us all.

It would probably be shocking to hear some of the R ideas being bandied about behind closed doors. The 40% might not find those ideas radical at all. 

 

[BrickHorn 18186]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

And yet we continue to associate, fraternize, and embrace his supporters as friends, neighbors, and relatives. We (myself included) do not have the courage to shun these people socially. 

It’s not a matter of courage.  It’s a matter of persuasion.  Shunning drives the wedge deeper.  It’s counterproductive.  One side is slipping towards authoritarianism.  The only way to win them back is to appeal to their hearts.  Which they still have.  

This isn’t 1930s Germany.  The US isn’t a homogeneously Anglo society with a relatively small, isolated minority population that is easily scapegoated.  We are an integrated, ethnically and culturally diverse nation. 99.9% of Trumpists have a close black, Latino, Asian, gay, liberal, Jewish, Muslim, or atheist friend or family member.  Focus their attention on how Trumpism would hurt that person.  Point out others who would lose dear friends, sons, daughters, wives, etc. if the nasty far right divisiveness ever takes hold.  Prep them to push back when they hear that shit.  You can be conservative and still say “I love people who are different than I am and I’ll fight for their right to life, liberty, and happiness here in the USA.”  

That’s the only way we win this thing, imo.  People have to respect each other enough to push back against their own political tribe when the leaders try to divide us.

Edited June 30, 2019 by BrickHorn

[Biff Tannen 45491]

Spoke to the in-laws over the weekend about the debates.  FIL actually liked Mayor Pete, but kept insinuating that his decision of whether or not to vote for the dotard again depended on who the Dems nominate.  I fear he will yank that R lever like he's starting a mower.  He works too hard and often to pay attention to all the hideous and childish daily activity of the dotard and still is acting like this is normal left/right politics.

Edited June 30, 2019 by Biff Tannen

[retread 2951]

"I would have voted for any D except <insert nominee>."

[Mojo Hand 4580]

14 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

It’s not a matter of courage.  It’s a matter of persuasion.  Shunning drives the wedge deeper.  It’s counterproductive.  One side is slipping towards authoritarianism.  The only way to win them back is to appeal to their hearts.  Which they still have.  

This isn’t 1930s Germany.  The US isn’t a homogeneously Anglo society with a relatively small, isolated minority population that is easily scapegoated.  We are an integrated, ethnically and culturally diverse nation. 99.9% of Trumpists have a close black, Latino, Asian, gay, liberal, Jewish, Muslim, or atheist friend or family member.  Focus their attention on how Trumpism would hurt that person.  Point out others who would lose dear friends, sons, daughters, wives, etc. if the nasty far right divisiveness ever takes hold.  Prep them to push back when they hear that shit.  You can be conservative and still say “I love people who are different than I am and I’ll fight for their right to life, liberty, and happiness here in the USA.”  

That’s the only way we win this thing, imo.  People have to respect each other enough to push back against their own political tribe when the leaders try to divide us.

If that worked, Trump wouldn't be rock-solid at 40ish % no matter what he does.   People have been trying to work on their relatives for 3 years, and the ones who remain fervent Trump supporters just don't care.  You can point out who will be hurt all you want, but they won't believe you because it's all fake news to them.  It's a cult, and it's extremely hard to talk someone out of being in a cult.   Unless you've got a deprogrammer on retainer, it's not going to happen. 

[JimmyJames 12271]

9 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

If that worked, Trump wouldn't be rock-solid at 40ish % no matter what he does.   People have been trying to work on their relatives for 3 years, and the ones who remain fervent Trump supporters just don't care.  You can point out who will be hurt all you want, but they won't believe you because it's all fake news to them.  It's a cult, and it's extremely hard to talk someone out of being in a cult.   Unless you've got a deprogrammer on retainer, it's not going to happen. 

My dad has reached the “if trump says something he disagrees with then CNN put out a fake video of trump” stage. He bought into trump way before most did though so he’s all in. 

My nephew on the other hand is still reachable. Alls I do is just point out the ridiculousness of whatever it was that trump just said or did and he can’t argue much. Not all of them are gone. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

30 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

We are an integrated, ethnically and culturally diverse nation. 99.9% of Trumpists have a close black, Latino, Asian, gay, liberal, Jewish, Muslim, or atheist friend or family member.  Focus their attention on how Trumpism would hurt that person. 

What you posted is true in urban environments. It isn't true in rural environments. Much of the South is still just black and white with very little integration and very few cross race relationships and friendships.  While they do have gay and atheist family members, those family members usually move away and there is a don't ask don't tell policy during holidays. And while tolerance of gay people is increasing in the rural south, atheists still must stay in the closet. 

People 40 and under are altogether better about it though so change is coming.  My older family in the deep South think Houston and Dallas are hellish warzones and they think much worse of DC, NYC, and LA.  There is nothing you can do that will make them change their minds.  

[RomaVicta 29775]

2 hours ago, Fozzz said:

Do you think Obama would not agree that running a country requires killing people?  If would not agree, then did he do so in sport?  Was he bored? 

Wow. Sophistry in the name of bloody tyranny. 

Killing people = Political purges and mass murder = Bombing Collateral damage = Slaughtering Millions in concentration camps

Tucker Carlson equates the United States with North Korea just as the president once exonerated Putin for his bloody hands because we killed people.

I'm seeing a repeated rationale for absolute rule by violent means coming from the seat of power. This is despicable and to be fought by any means. 

Thanks for revealing, even if in sick jest, the thought pathway to subjugating a free people.

 

[BrickHorn 18186]

21 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

If that worked, Trump wouldn't be rock-solid at 40ish % no matter what he does.   People have been trying to work on their relatives for 3 years, and the ones who remain fervent Trump supporters just don't care.  You can point out who will be hurt all you want, but they won't believe you because it's all fake news to them.  It's a cult, and it's extremely hard to talk someone out of being in a cult.   Unless you've got a deprogrammer on retainer, it's not going to happen. 

You don’t have to convince them all.  And you don’t have to win the very next battle.  It’s about staying in their ear.  Chipping away.  Being that angel on the shoulder, who keeps coming back to say “I know you’re a good person” even when they make stupid fucking decisions.

At some point, enough Trumpists will wake up and say “Oh my God, what was I thinking?”  I’ve already seen it.  Not with every Trump voter I’ve talked to.  But with enough.  I’ve heard that audible gasp in response to the “I worry about how this will hurt [insert dear friend here].  He’s [insert targeted minority].”  I’ve seen the light bulb click on.  Not every time and not with every Trump voter.  But with enough to know it’s a better strategy than shouting “YOURE A FASCIST ASSHOLE!”  Which is of course what I’d love to yell at many of them.

Edited June 30, 2019 by BrickHorn

[RomaVicta 29775]

2 hours ago, Lobo said:

As nervous as it makes me that she has any clearance or advisory capacity in our government, the one bit of good news in this exchange is that she's still a self-aware human being.  She wanted to come to the adult table, to demonstrate that she was one of the powerful women of the world (a worthy goal), and to chime in with a token (albeit worthless) bit of input.  She looked nervous, uncomfortable, but wanting to assert herself.  Every mid-level executive has done that at a conference or fundraiser with the big wigs in the room.  Yeah, she fucked it up but who among us hasn't done something akin to this (albeit on a lesser stage)?  She fumbled into it and fumbled out of it, but you can see the "I want to nail this...fuck I didn't nail it" all over her face and body language.  She's from a shit-tastic family and I don't know she's done/said anything I agree with in 30+ years...but at least we know she's not a complete sociopathic alien.  She'll still look for a way to enable her father to start an unnecessary war because molesters typically keep hold over their victims for years...but I'm looking for the positives in life this week.

That's really dumb.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

I disagree. Democrats will be in charge again and much of the rot of this presidency will be undone with a stroke of a pen because they couldn't get any actual legislation passed. It's a house of cards that can be easily undone by the next Democratic president.

Maybe. We won't know the true state of our regulatory agencies until Trump is out.  Do you think retiring nuclear physicists at the NRC are being replaced with qualified individuals if they are being replaced at all?  And agencies like the NRC aren't even being openly attacked like the State Dept or EPA.  He is actively trying to hollow them out. 

I do think we can overcome 4 years since there won't be enough attrition to erase all the expertise, but 8 years would be enough to result in a large if not complete loss of knowledge. 

[BrickHorn 18186]

5 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

What you posted is true in urban environments. It isn't true in rural environments. Much of the South is still just black and white with very little integration and very few cross race relationships and friendships.  While they do have gay and atheist family members, those family members usually move away and there is a don't ask don't tell policy during holidays. And while tolerance of gay people is increasing in the rural south, atheists still must stay in the closet. 

People 40 and under are altogether better about it though so change is coming.  My older family in the deep South think Houston and Dallas are hellish warzones and they think much worse of DC, NYC, and LA.  There is nothing you can do that will make them change their minds.  

There are liberals in the rural south.  Just as there are in the ultra-conservative Midwest.  My dad has a sister who is the only liberal in her generation of a very large family.  She’s beloved, despite her politics.  Trumpists would demonize her as a capital-L Librul.  Do her brothers and sisters really believe she is evil incarnate?  Because that’s what Fox News and Trump mouthpieces everywhere would have them believe.  

You use that example as a way to get them thinking.  To defuse the anger.  Everyone’s spoiling for a fight because they’ve abstracted the other side to a nameless, faceless evil.  Show them that the monster they’re about to swing at is actually their sister.  Their son.  Their childhood friend.  

[Catdaddyhorn 3444]

21 hours ago, 4th&Five said:

 

This is one of the areas where cultural competence could actually add some color to what's really taking place here.  There's a discussion currently going on within the black community about whether black immigrant encroachment and utilization of the gains made by African American descendants of slaves (ADOS) has gone too far.  Whether it be through affirmative action education measures, small business set asides, or any number of programs,  there's a feeling within the black community that the actual community these measures were created for isn't benefiting from them at a sufficient enough level.  Many of the tweets referenced here are actually meant to amplify the strong feelings surrounding this debate.  But as is often the case when black issues are discussed, both the media, and in this instance Don Jr, are ill-informed and are clumsily attaching the wrong analysis to what's actually taking place.  Kamala Harris and other black media personnel are well aware of what's going on but it benefits her, and honestly in this case black people in general, to let the above view on what's happening here carry on unabated. The funny thing here is that the Russians have a better handle of what's going on within the black community than our fellow Americans.  

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 minute ago, BrickHorn said:

You don’t have to convince them all.  And you don’t have to win the very next battle.  It’s about staying in their ear.  Chipping away.  Being that angel on the shoulder, who keeps coming back to say “I know your a good person” even when they make stupid fucking decisions.

At some point, enough Trumpists will wake up and say “Oh my God, what was I thinking?”  I’ve already seen it.  Not with every Trump voter I’ve talked to.  But with enough.  I’ve heard that audible gasp in response to the “I worry about how this will hurt [insert dear friend here].  He’s [insert targeted minority].”  I’ve seen the light bulb click on.  Not every time and not with every Trump voter.  But with enough to know it’s a better strategy than shouting “YOURE A FASCIST ASSHOLE!”  Which is of course what I’d love to yell at many of them.

IMO you don't have to convince any of them.   There's more than enough votes to defeat Trump.  Marginalize his supporters and move on, I say. 

[BrickHorn 18186]

8 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

IMO you don't have to convince any of them.   There's more than enough votes to defeat Trump.  Marginalize his supporters and move on, I say. 

And what?  Keep driving that wedge deeper and deeper?  Foster four more years of partisan resentment?  Keep pouring gasoline on this fire?

We’ve spent decades driving towards ever more partisanship in this country.  It’s gotten to the point that the side currently in power is openly talking about authoritarian murder as defensible governance.  You think that stops if the other side drives enough of its own enraged electorate to the polls?  Have you not seen posts from Surly liberals suggesting that the only solution is a purge of conservatives?  I have, and it’s fucking shameful and disgusting.  And if you think winning in 2020 will end the far right threat, then you haven’t been paying attention.  

We either take the high road to defuse this shit and keep working to mend fences, on the basis that we are all Americans despite our differences, or this country will find itself on a civil war or a violent autocracy in the near future.  Liberal tyranny is not the solution.  

Edited June 30, 2019 by BrickHorn

[Message Board User 12389]

 

[Biff Tannen 45491]

1 hour ago, Mojo Hand said:

If that worked, Trump wouldn't be rock-solid at 40ish % no matter what he does.   People have been trying to work on their relatives for 3 years, and the ones who remain fervent Trump supporters just don't care.  You can point out who will be hurt all you want, but they won't believe you because it's all fake news to them.  It's a cult, and it's extremely hard to talk someone out of being in a cult.   Unless you've got a deprogrammer on retainer, it's not going to happen. 

This actually reminds me of another thing FIL that kind of stunned me.  He said everything is fake news.  Fox, CNN, all of it.  I told him there are plenty of legitimate news sources if you look and he basically said he didn't have time.  

[Biff Tannen 45491]

1 hour ago, BrickHorn said:

We either take the high road to defuse this shit and keep working to mend fences, on the basis that we are all Americans despite our differences, or this country will find itself on a civil war or a violent autocracy in the near future.  Liberal tyranny is not the solution.  

I think this is ultimately correct, but Mojo's solution becomes more attractive when you realize that most of these people do not believe objective truth.  I don't know how you fix that.

[Bama Chick 28596]

 

I wish they would’ve kidnapped him and demanded ransom from Congress.

[henrygandorf 29174]

23 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

And what?  Keep driving that wedge deeper and deeper?  Foster four more years of partisan resentment?  Keep pouring gasoline on this fire?

We’ve spent decades driving towards ever more partisanship in this country.  It’s gotten to the point that the side currently in power is openly talking about authoritarian murder as defensible governance.  You think that stops if the other side drives enough of its own enraged electorate to the polls?  Have you not seen posts from Surly liberals suggesting that the only solution is a purge of conservatives?  I have, and it’s fucking shameful and disgusting.  And if you think winning in 2020 will end the far right threat, then you haven’t been paying attention.  

We either take the high road to defuse this shit and keep working to mend fences, on the basis that we are all Americans despite our differences, or this country will find itself on a civil war or a violent autocracy in the near future.  Liberal tyranny is not the solution.  

anyone preaching unity and togetherness now is wasting their breath.

win the election, unite the country afterwards.  not before.

[Biff Tannen 45491]

He's still sitting on chairs like they are toilets.

[Bama Chick 28596]

What you posted is true in urban environments. It isn't true in rural environments. Much of the South is still just black and white with very little integration and very few cross race relationships and friendships.  While they do have gay and atheist family members, those family members usually move away and there is a don't ask don't tell policy during holidays. And while tolerance of gay people is increasing in the rural south, atheists still must stay in the closet. 
People 40 and under are altogether better about it though so change is coming.  My older family in the deep South think Houston and Dallas are hellish warzones and they think much worse of DC, NYC, and LA.  There is nothing you can do that will make them change their minds.  

Eh I can’t speak for Texas but in places like Alabama and Georgia and Mississippi - even rural areas - there are A LOT of interracial couples in the 30 and younger set.

A great many Trumpkins have mixed race grandchildren and great grandchildren.

And while they may love them they probably still aren’t comfortable with the whole thing.

Seriously, white country gals love them some black men. That’s where the generational racism is being broken in the rural south but unfortunately I don’t think it’s trickling up to the older generations to make a meaningful difference.

[BrickHorn 18186]

12 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

anyone preaching unity and togetherness now is wasting their breath.

win the election, unite the country afterwards.  not before.

I’m not saying don’t try to win the election.  I’m saying don’t think winning one election will end the threat of far right extremism.  And I’m also saying: don’t think playing to our side’s worst instincts will win the election.

In my view, the Dems are making a huge mistake by running as far left as possible.  That could cost us in 2020 but, even if we win, wild-ass pendulum swings every four years will only amplify the partisan divide.  

[David Dennison 18652]

6 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

I’m not saying don’t try to win the election.  I’m saying don’t think winning one election will end the threat of far right extremism.  And I’m also saying: don’t think playing to our side’s worst instincts will win the election.

In my view, the Dems are making a huge mistake by running as far left as possible.  That could cost us in 2020 but, even if we win, wild-ass pendulum swings every four years will only amplify the partisan divide.  

Dems have to run as far left as possible to get nominated.

They will return to the center for the general.

[Bama Chick 28596]

And what?  Keep driving that wedge deeper and deeper?  Foster four more years of partisan resentment?  Keep pouring gasoline on this fire?
We’ve spent decades driving towards ever more partisanship in this country.  It’s gotten to the point that the side currently in power is openly talking about authoritarian murder as defensible governance.  You think that stops if the other side drives enough of its own enraged electorate to the polls?  Have you not seen posts from Surly liberals suggesting that the only solution is a purge of conservatives?  I have, and it’s fucking shameful and disgusting.  And if you think winning in 2020 will end the far right threat, then you haven’t been paying attention.  
We either take the high road to defuse this shit and keep working to mend fences, on the basis that we are all Americans despite our differences, or this country will find itself on a civil war or a violent autocracy in the near future.  Liberal tyranny is not the solution.  

Taking the high road is admirable but what do you do when the opposition not only breaks every rule but makes up new ones at every turn?

And how do you convince people to listen to their better angels when they actually literally refuse to acknowledge facts?

Because when the leader of the senate publicly says he’ll refuse to follow the rules and 40% of the voters actively refuse to listen to anything that they don’t already believe, I truly don’t know how you fight that.

And I’ve used hyperbolic rhetoric about purging the deplorables and I cannot speak for anyone else but I obviously don’t mean killing them.

I just think the Democrats have to win power via elections by getting the 60% to the polls and then just politically ignore those who are to far gone. These people have proven they’ll never compromise and frankly I’m tired of politicians continuing to try.

Our country didn’t compromise with the Bull Connors and George Wallaces back in the 60s. We told them they were shit and passed laws to make them irrelevant.

[Message Board User 12389]

 

[atomheartbevo 89409]

4 hours ago, Lobo said:

As nervous as it makes me that she has any clearance or advisory capacity in our government, the one bit of good news in this exchange is that she's still a self-aware human being.  She wanted to come to the adult table, to demonstrate that she was one of the powerful women of the world (a worthy goal), and to chime in with a token (albeit worthless) bit of input.  She looked nervous, uncomfortable, but wanting to assert herself.  Every mid-level executive has done that at a conference or fundraiser with the big wigs in the room.  Yeah, she fucked it up but who among us hasn't done something akin to this (albeit on a lesser stage)?  She fumbled into it and fumbled out of it, but you can see the "I want to nail this...fuck I didn't nail it" all over her face and body language.  She's from a shit-tastic family and I don't know she's done/said anything I agree with in 30+ years...but at least we know she's not a complete sociopathic alien.  She'll still look for a way to enable her father to start an unnecessary war because molesters typically keep hold over their victims for years...but I'm looking for the positives in life this week.

That's oddly specific.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

47 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

 

Eh I can’t speak for Texas but in places like Alabama and Georgia and Mississippi - even rural areas - there are A LOT of interracial couples in the 30 and younger set.

A great many Trumpkins have mixed race grandchildren and great grandchildren.

And while they may love them they probably still aren’t comfortable with the whole thing.

Seriously, white country gals love them some black men. That’s where the generational racism is being broken in the rural south but unfortunately I don’t think it’s trickling up to the older generations to make a meaningful difference.

 

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, and rural statistics are tough to find as separate statistics, but in 2015, interracial marriages made up 6% of Birmingham marriages and 3% of Jackson, MS.  Both in the bottom 10 of metro areas with Jackson having the lowest rate of interracial marriage overall.

https://www.citylab.com/equity/2017/05/interracial-marriage-in-cities-pew-report/527217/

The only numbers I found for Alabama children were from 2012-2013.  In that school year, only 1.19% of schoolchildren identified as two or more races.  Now I'm sure that's gone up some over the last 5 years, and maybe there are some mixed race kids that identify as black or white rather than both.  But even accounting for that, you are still probably looking at less than 5%.

https://ballotpedia.org/Public_education_in_Alabama 

And I don't doubt that white Bama girls like black men, but they aren't bringing them home to meet their parents very often.

There is also some perception at play.  If you go to the mall and see 5 to 10 interracial couples, you might remember seeing them while not remembering how many of the 100s of monoracial couples were at the mall today.

I will say though that large urban area statistics are likely skewed by the prevalence of white-asian, black-asian, white-latino, and black-latino couples.  White guy - Asian girl often seems like its the default pairing in NYC.  Black-white couples probably don't occur at a much greater rate in NY or LA than they do in Bama.

[Guest Lobo]

They all suck.  Watch what she did though, she did something that crave attention and power and a seat at the table.  It’s funny to laugh at but you can see she’s very uncomfortable.  Unlike her father and husband, she at least may be a human being.  That’s how I’ve looked in her situation.  Just not as ass sexy.  

[Brisketexan 104557]

You don’t have to convince them all.  And you don’t have to win the very next battle.  It’s about staying in their ear.  Chipping away.  Being that angel on the shoulder, who keeps coming back to say “I know you’re a good person” even when they make stupid fucking decisions.
At some point, enough Trumpists will wake up and say “Oh my God, what was I thinking?”  I’ve already seen it.  Not with every Trump voter I’ve talked to.  But with enough.  I’ve heard that audible gasp in response to the “I worry about how this will hurt [insert dear friend here].  He’s [insert targeted minority].”  I’ve seen the light bulb click on.  Not every time and not with every Trump voter.  But with enough to know it’s a better strategy than shouting “YOURE A FASCIST ASSHOLE!”  Which is of course what I’d love to yell at many of them.

My grandfather shot dead many Germans who may well have been troubled by Hitler. But they still carried his water/carried a rifle for him.

More than enough information is out there. At this point, they know damned well they’re supporting cruelty and evil.

We ARE 1930s Germany. Camps for the undesirables and all. The Reichstag fire and suspension of normal elections and laws is coming.

We’re taking about how to talk to people who are happy to collaborate with an evil regime. That’s delightful. The time for talking will fly right by us. And we’ll be left with no choice but collaboration, silence, or physical resistance. This IS how a republic ends. The script is right there for the reading.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 hour ago, BrickHorn said:

And what?  Keep driving that wedge deeper and deeper?  Foster four more years of partisan resentment?  Keep pouring gasoline on this fire?

We’ve spent decades driving towards ever more partisanship in this country.  It’s gotten to the point that the side currently in power is openly talking about authoritarian murder as defensible governance.  You think that stops if the other side drives enough of its own enraged electorate to the polls?  Have you not seen posts from Surly liberals suggesting that the only solution is a purge of conservatives?  I have, and it’s fucking shameful and disgusting.  And if you think winning in 2020 will end the far right threat, then you haven’t been paying attention.  

We either take the high road to defuse this shit and keep working to mend fences, on the basis that we are all Americans despite our differences, or this country will find itself on a civil war or a violent autocracy in the near future.  Liberal tyranny is not the solution.  

I'm not advocating liberal tyranny.   I'm advocating that we don't treat their murderous authoritianism as a reasonable perspective on the American political spectrum that should be engaged and reasoned with.   It should be treated as the cancer that it is.  Like the Klan and Larouche nuts and every other movement in the same vein that has been marginalized by reasonable society.  The oxygen they've gotten from hijacking a major political party, and then being treated like they belong there, has only strengthened their resolve.  Let them spend their energy buying Trump's future ghostwritten books and following his future radio show or whatever.   They'll crawl back into the holes they came from, and the stigma will do the rest. 

Meanwhile, I believe in progressive policies and I think they'll go a long way towards healing the major divides in this country over time.  I think a big part of the reason we've gotten to this point is that Dems have bent over backwards to accommodate the right for years, and what we've gotten is shitty, watered-down Republican-lite policy from the Dems that has failed and that Dems have taken all of the blame for.   I think Dems should actually enact progressive policies and let the chips fall where they may. 

The Dems won back the House in 2018 not by accommodating Trump voters, but by finally standing up for the good parts of Obamacare.   Which itself was a shitty compromise of a Republican policy, but things like the ban on pre-existing conditions helped enough people to make a big difference 8 years later.    Dems need to focus on that same progressive energy from 2018 going forward.

Outline our vision.   Appeal to the majority of voters that aren't deplorables.  Treat the deplorables as the pariahs they should be.  Pass a progressive agenda into law.   And then see what happens when everyone has health care, and access to higher education, and freedom from crushing student loan debt, and all the rest.  

[GreenspointTexas 9559]

Its gonna take a long time for a majority of the racist, conservative, come and take it crowd of america to die off... but when they do... this country is really gonna fly

[Brisketexan 104557]

There are liberals in the rural south.  Just as there are in the ultra-conservative Midwest.  My dad has a sister who is the only liberal in her generation of a very large family.  She’s beloved, despite her politics.  Trumpists would demonize her as a capital-L Librul.  Do her brothers and sisters really believe she is evil incarnate?  Because that’s what Fox News and Trump mouthpieces everywhere would have them believe.  
You use that example as a way to get them thinking.  To defuse the anger.  Everyone’s spoiling for a fight because they’ve abstracted the other side to a nameless, faceless evil.  Show them that the monster they’re about to swing at is actually their sister.  Their son.  Their childhood friend.  

Brother killed brother in our civil war. Neighbor turned neighbor over to the Gestapo.

Human decency isn’t going to save us because the people who need to practice it are actively cheering its demise.

Fundamentally, the problem with your approach presumes that the republic isn’t already dead. You’re the pilot at the stick of a plane that’s lost a wing. Go ahead and fight like hell to get it under control - I’m there with you, fight till the bitter fucking end - but know this: we’re already dead.

When the group in power chooses to discard and then burn essentially everything that arguably makes us different, special, and good, there’s no recovery from that.

[Mojo Hand 4580]

1 hour ago, BrickHorn said:

I’m not saying don’t try to win the election.  I’m saying don’t think winning one election will end the threat of far right extremism.  And I’m also saying: don’t think playing to our side’s worst instincts will win the election.

In my view, the Dems are making a huge mistake by running as far left as possible.  That could cost us in 2020 but, even if we win, wild-ass pendulum swings every four years will only amplify the partisan divide.  

Sounds like you don't believe in the policies of the left.  Which is fine, if that is your view.  But I disagree.  I think we should run left and govern left, and that will lead to big rewards when voters like what they see. 

[Tom 2959]

34 minutes ago, GreenspointTexas said:

Its gonna take a long time for a majority of the racist, conservative, come and take it crowd of america to die off... but when they do... this country is really gonna fly

 

I know plenty of Trump supporting conservatives under 40.  This idea that their politics will be buried with the boomers and Luby's crowd is wishful thinking.

 

Edited June 30, 2019 by Tom

[BrickHorn 18186]

1 hour ago, Mojo Hand said:

I'm not advocating liberal tyranny.   I'm advocating that we don't treat their murderous authoritianism as a reasonable perspective on the American political spectrum that should be engaged and reasoned with.   It should be treated as the cancer that it is.  Like the Klan and Larouche nuts and every other movement in the same vein that has been marginalized by reasonable society. 

Let me be very clear: I do not advocate excusing or encouraging far right ideology. Far from it.  I believe we should take every opportunity to criticize that ideology and convince those who lean toward it that they are wrong.  

My point is this: you won’t persuade those on the right side of the fence by appealing to logic or, when that fails, insult or accusation (the strategies most of us - myself included - default to). You must appeal to their hearts.  Find something or someone more dear to them than MAGA or Fox News or whatever bullshit they’re wrapped up in, and show how the views they’re told to support would hurt people they care about.  

Basically, don’t tell Trumpists they are stupid.  Show them that their extreme views would hurt people.  It won’t work for everyone, but there are decent people wrapped up in that shit too.  Those are the hearts we need to win over to regain a sense of political stability here.  Fail to do that, and the middle will continue flowing to the extremes.  And your policy of isolation will drive a lot of potentially good centrists to identify with evil.  

It’s just basic human psychology.  Deny it at your (and the republic’s) peril.

[BrickHorn 18186]

46 minutes ago, Tom said:

 

I know plenty of Trump supporting conservatives under 40.  This idea that their politics will be buried with the boomers and Luby's crowd is wishful thinking.

 

That some younger voters support Trump misses the point.  Trump’s approval rating strongly correlates with age.  A majority of the over 65 demographic likes him.  But a majority of the 18-34 demographic dislikes him.  As the Boomers die off, the overall approval rating will trend negative.  

[BrickHorn 18186]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Brother killed brother in our civil war. Neighbor turned neighbor over to the Gestapo.

Human decency isn’t going to save us because the people who need to practice it are actively cheering its demise.

Fundamentally, the problem with your approach presumes that the republic isn’t already dead. You’re the pilot at the stick of a plane that’s lost a wing. Go ahead and fight like hell to get it under control - I’m there with you, fight till the bitter fucking end - but know this: we’re already dead.

When the group in power chooses to discard and then burn essentially everything that arguably makes us different, special, and good, there’s no recovery from that.

We are heading in the wrong direction, but I don’t believe we’re already in a civil war.  There’s one sure way to get there, though, and that’s... to act like we’re already in a civil war.  Which, of course, is exactly what the far right wants.  Why give it to them?

This shit is still fixable.  Those of you declaring it over and done with are just frustrated that logic, reason, and history hasn’t worked to stem the tide of stupidity. Well, no shit.  Half of the US population is below average intelligence.  And you’re surprised they don’t appreciate the consequences of Trump’s attacks on political norms and constitutional ideals?  We need to stop pounding our heads against the wall of logic and start making arguments that have a chance of actually working.  

[Red Five 40633]

Probably covered already, but lulz at Trump claiming that Obama was "constantly begging North Korea for a meeting".