Formula 1 2019

[Constant 6844]

Finally saw the race. That was awesome watching Hamilton reel in Verstappen. Merc is just ridiculous. 

[wood 11747]

16 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Yep, Hamilton drove amazingly but this win was because of his team. He didn't want to pit and argued against it.

Red Bull should have been willing to drop a second behind Hamilton on fresh tires. Would have been a hell of a ballsy move and probably all hindsight but they should have realized Mercedes had good info on the hard tires because of Bottas. So when Mercedes pitted Hamilton Red Bull should have realized there was a really good reason that they were willing to try to make up 20 seconds in 20 laps.

Or just go ahead and just pit ahead of Merc to take the opportunity away from them. Had they done that, at worst, they'd have been in the lead with Lewis close. Horner keeps saying Merc "just rolled the dice", but what really happened was the Red Bull left the door open. Merc saw it & took advantage.

Edited August 5, 2019 by wood

[wood 11747]

On 8/4/2019 at 11:01 AM, MC Fresh Breath said:

I picked McLaren as a mid-pack team to root on this year.  Maybe I jumped on a good bandwagon(?). 

Yeah McLaren is really coming on, and this was a track they thought they'd struggle at coming in. Also, Sainz finishing ahead of Gasly was impressive - but not so much for Gasly, who was in DRS range of Sainz almost the entire race. Gasly getting lapped by Max is also pretty wow.

[wood 11747]

 

[Huckleberry 34409]

I think you and I are on the same page. But if Verstappen had pitted on the next lap once they saw Hamilton put on fresh mediums Verstappen would have come out behind Hamilton.

I find it a little harder to criticize them for not pitting first because they didn't really have as much info on how quickly the hards were degrading as Mercedes had. Bottas had an awful opening to the race through mostly bad luck but that ended up giving Mercedes great data on hard tire degradation that Red Bull didn't have. When Hamilton came into the pits at the end of lap 48 Bottas had been on a set of hard tires for 40+ laps. Hamilton pitted around Lap 30 or 31 which means he would have had to run hards for nearly 40 laps to the end of the race. Verstappen was trying to run them for over 45 laps. That's the info Mercedes had that told them Verstappen was going to run out of tires in a bad way.

Red Bull didn't have that info but when Mercedes pitted Hamilton that was the moment they should have recognized the information advantage Mercedes had.

[utee94 16071]

Either way, I don't think it's hindsight to say RBR should have pitted Max either just before, or just after, Lewis.  Then we'd have likely seen the two duel it out for many, many laps, rather than Lewis easily reeling in Max at the end and dusting him by something like 18 seconds in 2 laps to finish.

 

Regardless, fun racing, and way more than "just another Hamilton" #1. Ask Fred, he'd know.

 

 

[Goofyboy 3428]

He didn’t easily reel him in. He had to nail 19 perfect laps to catch Max. At first Max was matching Lewis’ lap times. Epic drive by Lewis and great call by Merc.

[Huckleberry 34409]

I don't see it that way at all. It was done when the decisions were made. The fact Verstappen was matching him before his tires were completely done actually contradicts your theory that it was pure driver skill that allowed Hamilton to catch up. At the time the pass was made Verstappen's lap times had increased by basically 4 seconds. He easily reeled him in, the fact it happened after 19 laps doesn't mean it required perfect driving. That's when it had to happen because that's when the hard tires went dead for Verstappen.

[Anton Chigurh 3334]

Yeah, man. All drivers are the same. Just look at Max and Pierre.

[Hawndoh 2409]

Max had no tires. Hamilton caught him because of the strategy. They were pretty equal outside of that.

The two of them very nearly lapped the field. 

[Anton Chigurh 3334]

Max had no tires. Hamilton caught him because of the strategy. They were pretty equal outside of that.
The two of them very nearly lapped the field. 

Sure, Lewis and Max were equal.

The field isn’t equal.

[Hawndoh 2409]

Nobody has made the claim the field is equal. 

[Anton Chigurh 3334]

People have made the claim that what Lewis did was easy though, as if the car drove itself to the end. What goofyboy said is correct.

 

Just like when he set fastest lap on 31 lap old hard tires in Silverstone. Pretty awesome stuff.

 

[Anton Chigurh 3334]

Merc poster their pit wall for this race. Good stuff as always.

Also, if you haven’t seen Germany, it’s a good one.

Might as well put Silverstone here too.

[utee94 16071]

20 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

People have made the claim that what Lewis did was easy though, as if the car drove itself to the end. What goofyboy said is correct.

 

Just like when he set fastest lap on 31 lap old hard tires in Silverstone. Pretty awesome stuff.

 

I said he reeled him easily.  Which he did.  The pit stop strategy for Max was a failure.  The moment he didn't pit within 1-2 laps of Lewis, before or after, the race was over.  I totally agree with @Huckleberry here.  Max finished 18 seconds behind Lewis.  His tires went off and he was done.

Edited August 7, 2019 by utee94

[Anton Chigurh 3334]

I said he reeled him easily.  Which he did.  The pit stop strategy for Max was a failure.  The moment he didn't pit within 1-2 laps of Lewis, before or after, the race was over.  I totally agree with [mention=1821]Huckleberry[/mention] here.  Max finished 18 seconds behind Lewis.  His tires went off and he was done.

 

He pit for new softs on lap 67 to set fastest lap after he was passed.

[Huckleberry 34409]

1 hour ago, Anton Chigurh said:

People have made the claim that what Lewis did was easy though, as if the car drove itself to the end. What goofyboy said is correct.

 

Just like when he set fastest lap on 31 lap old hard tires in Silverstone. Pretty awesome stuff.

 

It really was easy, it's just that we didn't know how easy at the time (although the Mercedes team seemed VERY confident on the radio with Hamilton). Hamilton drove great but it turned out he didn't actually need to. He probably could have lapped a half second slower every time and still caught him in the end. 

In the moment, though, Hamilton couldn't be sure and drove amazingly well. 

[utee94 16071]

Forgot about that last pit, I was pretty much done with the race then.  But good point.

And yes, I'm not taking anything away from the way Lewis drove to catch him.  But I don't believe "perfect" laps were necessary to win the race.  Lewis's pit stop, and Max's lack of one, had already decided it.

 

[wood 11747]

1 hour ago, Anton Chigurh said:

People have made the claim that what Lewis did was easy though, as if the car drove itself to the end. What goofyboy said is correct.

 

Just like when he set fastest lap on 31 lap old hard tires in Silverstone. Pretty awesome stuff.

 

I'm not saying either was easy. But the strategy (& Red Bull leaving that option uncovered) is what made it all possible, & Lewis thought it was a bad call. Max's tires were old and degrading rapidly, esp the last few laps before he pitted way too late. Some people (not you) act like Lewis is the only driver who could've pulled that off. No way. 

Edited August 7, 2019 by wood

[wood 11747]

Looks like Mexico City's staying on the calendar...

[elfenix 34662]

Part of me thinks RB should have put Max on reds with like 10 to go. Would have put Max out about 8 seconds behind Lewis with much better tires.

[52-80 19374]

they're both top drivers.  clearly tier 1 in the sport. 

they both had clean air and were just racing against the clock. 

the variance in their respective lap times for their last 20 laps are nearly identical.  and especially in the last 10 laps, their times fell progressively and monotonically as the tires started to degrade.

 

so both had good performances in that neither made a clear driver's mistake.  and 1 won due to better equipment at the right moment.

mathematically speaking the outcome was predictable. 

mercedes' pit decision was a no-brainer.  i do agree that with RB's sim data, they too shouldve pitted for fresher tires (not sure what tires they had available...?).

 

if 1 driver deserved more credit than the other, max should be recognized for making the hards last 41 laps, which was well beyond their predicted wear rate.  he had a tougher job of balancing preserving the rubbers vs maintaining a gap.  whereas lewis only needed to drive to a target of 1:19.00 or so

[utee94 16071]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

they're both top drivers.  clearly tier 1 in the sport. 

they both had clean air and were just racing against the clock. 

the variance in their respective lap times for their last 20 laps are nearly identical.  and especially in the last 10 laps, their times fell progressively and monotonically as the tires started to degrade.

 

so both had good performances in that neither made a clear driver's mistake.  and 1 won due to better equipment at the right moment.

mathematically speaking the outcome was predictable. 

mercedes' pit decision was a no-brainer.  i do agree that with RB's sim data, they too shouldve pitted for fresher tires (not sure what tires they had available...?).

 

if 1 driver deserved more credit than the other, max should be recognized for making the hards last 41 laps, which was well beyond their predicted wear rate.  he had a tougher job of balancing preserving the rubbers vs maintaining a gap.  whereas lewis only needed to drive to a target of 1:19.00 or so

Exactament

I'm finding it very difficult to continue praising Max, but there you have it.  I guess I should get used to it, if the silly season rumors are true and he'll be driving at Ferrari soon. 😁

 

[ChickenSandwich 9925]

2 hours ago, 52-80 said:

they're both top drivers.  clearly tier 1 in the sport. 

they both had clean air and were just racing against the clock. 

the variance in their respective lap times for their last 20 laps are nearly identical.  and especially in the last 10 laps, their times fell progressively and monotonically as the tires started to degrade.

 

so both had good performances in that neither made a clear driver's mistake.  and 1 won due to better equipment at the right moment.

mathematically speaking the outcome was predictable. 

mercedes' pit decision was a no-brainer.  i do agree that with RB's sim data, they too shouldve pitted for fresher tires (not sure what tires they had available...?).

 

if 1 driver deserved more credit than the other, max should be recognized for making the hards last 41 laps, which was well beyond their predicted wear rate.  he had a tougher job of balancing preserving the rubbers vs maintaining a gap.  whereas lewis only needed to drive to a target of 1:19.00 or so

Pre-race they said the Hard Tire was good for 50 laps. They didn’t make that. 

[Anton Chigurh 3334]

Pre-race they said the Hard Tire was good for 50 laps. They didn’t make that. 

Yep. Perez did 51, Kvyat 47, Russel 52, Giovinazzi 53, and Kubica 49 laps all on first stints with heavier cars and less downforce. The two stop strat was the fastest until Mercedes and Hamilton made the 3 stop work best. Only 4 cars did a 3 stop, one of them Bottas since he had damage, and of course Max pit after Lewis passed. Max had to push hard to try and keep Lewis behind, which brought him inside the expected tire life window (which the Merc pitwall video explains well).

[52-80 19374]

32 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Pre-race they said the Hard Tire was good for 50 laps. They didn’t make that. 

Pirelli's fastest projection for starting on medium was pitting at 30-35, and running hard for 35-40 laps.

Their longest projection window for hard is 48 laps, (assuming driver started on the softs for 22 laps)

With Max having pitted at 25, assuming he could go for 45 was skirting dangerously close to risky zone.

 

23 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

 

Yep. Perez did 51, Kvyat 47, Russel 52, Giovinazzi 53, and Kubica 49 laps all on first stints with heavier cars and less downforce. The two stop strat was the fastest until Mercedes and Hamilton made the 3 stop work best. Only 4 cars did a 3 stop, one of them Bottas since he had damage, and of course Max pit after Lewis passed. Max had to push hard to try and keep Lewis behind, which brought him inside the expected tire life window (which the Merc pitwall video explains well).

 

impressive by Perez, but I'm not sure if the rest of those guys were were pushing their cars for position.  Hell, Kubica might as well have driven the Safety car for the entire season

[wood 11747]

Sean Bull with more throwback liveries on current cars. Love the imagination & originality of  these liveries compared to most now...

[utee94 16071]

Ha!  I love the extra wheel on the Tyrrell! 

[Anton Chigurh 3334]

The Jordan 191 doesn’t quite flow for me, but the 197 does.

Brawn is still one of the best.

The Arrows A-21 works okay.

The Jag I like.

Marlboro McLaren is an all-timer.

The Benetton cars. Hmm. I think the 189 United Colors of Benetton thing is bad. The 192 is alright. It needs a boxier car but it sorta works here.

Earth dreams was bad and still is bad and might be the worst livery ever.

[wood 11747]

Looks like Mexico's new contract is through 2022 and they'll be doing it without public money from now on, a la Silverstone...

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/mexican-grand-prix-2020-contract/4509931/?fbclid=IwAR2tuCTxGHydg4tufOf8zPHgcvleSr24MNKk4rK1B7EZX9TKI4DCqMkbY6A

https://twitter.com/mexicogp/status/1159501973009227782

[wood 11747]

Another set just out. This is great stuff, imho...

[utee94 16071]

I'll say that the John Player Special livery seems to look great on pretty much any model of car.

[Anton Chigurh 3334]

Wow, even the Simtek livery.

[faps 818]

GD I love all of those, keep em coming.

The Parmalat Alfa, Tom Pryce Shadow?, Brawn, Jag, Marlboro McLaren stand out for me.

[Anton Chigurh 3334]

Oh yeah, both Brabhams are great. Looks like BT46B and BT52.

[PittsburghTiger 6320]

I just mentioned in the Movie You Just Watched thread that I just watched this:

 

[PittsburghTiger 6320]

Those refreshed livery are awesome. I always thought the Jaguar was a beautiful car. Just beautiful. Also, even though I never rooted for them, the McLaren is stunning.

Love Emerson Fittipaldi's car. I interviewed him once and the last words he said to me were, "Chow Baby."

Edited August 8, 2019 by PittsburghTiger

[wood 11747]

That Vanwall ... wow.

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

Red Bull goes with Albon, sends Gasly down to Toro Rosso:

https://redbullracing.redbull.com/article/alex-joins-team

[wood 11747]

LOL. What took 'em so long?

[wood 11747]

Dirty air through the ages ...

[wood 11747]

 ... too bad it's not quite up to date.

[utee94 16071]

Make 'em go back to the first one.  Cleaner air, smaller footprint, more passing.

Also bring back refueling and 6-wheel cars.

[52-80 19374]

13 hours ago, utee94 said:

Make 'em go back to the first one.  Cleaner air, smaller footprint, more passing.

Also bring back refueling and 6-wheel cars.

yes!! with bicycling helmets and ski goggles

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

"Keeping a keen eye on the MCL34's aero"

 

https://www.mclaren.com/racing/2019/summer-break/theory-of-evolution/

[TexMexBuddha 994]

Interesting, and quite detailed, article from Engadget on the technical arms race and the challenge for 2nd- and lower-tier teams.

Renault team highlighted: https://www.engadget.com/2019/08/14/formula-1-renault-grand-prix-rules-technical-challenge/

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

That's an interesting article.  Do folks think the budget caps will improve competitiveness in the long run?

Also, I'm guessing that cap doesn't apply to engine manufacturing, correct?  Like, say Honda could spend all they want on engine development?  

 

[wood 11747]

I like the idea. I just don't see how it can be enforced well.

[Anton Chigurh 3334]

Man, Toto is such a big part of this historic Mercedes run. The dude just exudes excellence and is such an incredible leader. It’s amazing what kind of inspiration that can be. He makes Gareth look just incredibly ordinary here.

 

 

 https://youtu.be/v5Lzkcun4qo

 

 

 

[52-80 19374]

and his wife is attractive