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Formula 1 2019

wood

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wood
wood

Oh hell yes.

Goofyboy
Goofyboy
Austinvines
Austinvines

My wife’s coz was at qualifying on a terrace and took some cool pics.

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Anton Chigurh

Anton Chigurh 3319

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It was a bit dirty for me, especially with what they have penalized this year already.

 

Charles was actually ahead until just before the apex.

 

99231da5a1647727db6aa874627e8d95.jpg

 

Mid corner they were still fine, at which point Max got a bit loose on his unwinding of the wheel.

 

7bbe4e5df5c6ac72f238efb05ef7731a.jpg

 

It’s very similar to Nico/Lewis 2016 in T1, though Nico was much more egregious. The problem is that Max hasn’t really been penalized for his moves like this in the past so he knows he can usually get away with it.

 

It’s hard for max to defend it because one lap earlier the same thing happened with the correct result. But, it’ll be interesting to see what happens. If you penalize Vettel in Canada you’ve gotta penalize this one (I know they aren’t the same thing).

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utee94

utee94 15852

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3 hours ago, Goofyboy said:

Vettle made a mistake and should have been penalized.

Max didn’t make a mistake. He took the corner. Charles lost the corner as soon as he took the wide line. He could have slowed. Max got wide.

If Max had stayed on a legitimate racing line then I might agree.  He did not, and I do not.  Like AC said, the previous lap same thing happened, Max drove it correctly, and wasn't able to take the corner.

In clean racing you don't get to push another car entirely off the track.  Max knew exactly what he was doing, because he did it right 1 lap earlier, he was getting frustrated and desperate, and he cheated. Typical Max. If you're going to penalize Vettel in Canada, then this absolutely should have been a penalty too. 

 

Edited by utee94
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Goofyboy

Goofyboy 3294

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Canada was Vettle running across a corner and cutting the track. Max won the corner already with the inside line. Charles just as easily could have slowed. With Canada, Hamilton has zero chance to go for it before Vettle cut him off. The difference is that Vettle cut the track.

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utee94

utee94 15852

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Why should Charles slow?  Why on Earth would he concede a corner that Max couldn't win without dirty racing, forcing him off the track? A corner that Max had already proven the lap before that he could not take when he did it the right way.  So why should Charles have to slow down just to let a cheater take a corner he didn't earn? That doesn't make any sense at all.

Max broke the rules and forced another driver entirely off the track because he couldn't take the corner cleanly without cheating.  Very simple and clearcut to me.

Edited by utee94
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utee94

utee94 15852

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7 minutes ago, Anton Chigurh said:

If you’re gonna make that move you gotta be inch perfect. Max was clumsy (as he is with most of his moves). Hamilton is the master at it but he would do it after the corner and placed his car perfectly (several times with Nico).

It really, really undermines the sport, when they continue to allow this jackass to just hack his way through the field. It's not good racing, it's not good FOR racing. It's actually an embarrassment to people who do their job well-- like Lewis.

Edit: And I really think if Max had just been patient, he'd have been able to make a legitimate pass within the next lap.  His tires were better, his car was performing, all he needed to do was exhibit the slightest bit of restraint and he would have had the position fair and square.  But he simply can't help himself.  He's just a complete douche nozzle.

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Capn81

Capn81 373

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It really, really undermines the sport, when they continue to allow this jackass to just hack his way through the field. It's not good racing, it's not good FOR racing. It's actually an embarrassment to people who do their job well-- like Lewis.
Edit: And I really think if Max had just been patient, he'd have been able to make a legitimate pass within the next lap.  His tires were better, his car was performing, all he needed to do was exhibit the slightest bit of restraint and he would have had the position fair and square.  But he simply can't help himself.  He's just a complete douche nozzle.


You sound butthurt. Get in there, Max!
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Bone3421

Bone3421 716

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Looks like i missed a fun one....
Austrian GP isnt a strong track for hamilton it seems with only one win there...granted it has only been held for 6 years of his career

See if he can keep the strangle hold at silverstone in a 2 weeks...won 4 in a row there before vettel knocked him to 2nd last year

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wood

wood 11243

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Nice day for McLaren. Lando P6, Sainz holds off Kimi at the end to get P8, up from 19. Solidly 4th now.

LMAO at Gasly...getting lapped by his teammate. First time since 2012 that the race winner has lapped his teammate. 

Renault dropping back a bit it seems. Haas, wtf? KMag lost out to Russel in a Williams for P19 LOL. 

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Anton Chigurh

Anton Chigurh 3319

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Nice day for McLaren. Lando P6, Sainz holds off Kimi at the end to get P8, up from 19. Solidly 4th now.

LMAO at Gasly...getting lapped by his teammate. First time since 2012 that the race winner has lapped his teammate. 

Renault dropping back a bit it seems. Haas, wtf? KMag lost out to Russel in a Williams for P19 LOL. 

 

I have McLaren drivers on my fantasy team now. Great value. MAG did have a drive thru but yeah I think this is one of the few tracks they could at least do “okay” (for their Formula 1.9 standards) at.

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Anton Chigurh

Anton Chigurh 3319

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I have McLaren drivers on my fantasy team now. Great value. MAG did have a drive thru but yeah I think this is one of the few tracks they could at least do “okay” (for their Formula 1.9 standards) at.

 

Oops. They = Williams.

 

Also, Haas really can’t figure out the tires during the race. In Q they seem to be able to, but it doesn’t transfer to the race.

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52-80

52-80 19226

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7 hours ago, Bone3421 said:

Looks like i missed a fun one....
Austrian GP isnt a strong track for hamilton it seems with only one win there...granted it has only been held for 6 years of his career

See if he can keep the strangle hold at silverstone in a 2 weeks...won 4 in a row there before vettel knocked him to 2nd last year

Mercedes said they have heating issues at this track year after year, and this year they were doing engine management (i.e. coasting) for almost a quarter of the length of the lap.  Hence Bottas letting Max zip by on the straight

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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 33072

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There is no way that shouldn't be a penalty on Verstappen if Vettel got penalized in Canada. You pull about even heading into a turn and through the apex on the inside and then finish the turn still basically even with your outside tires on the edge of the track? That was pretty much BS and I'm not exactly a Ferrari fan (I'm an anyone but Mercedes fan only because of their win rate; well that and their Nazi collaboration I guess).

In Canada Vettel didn't "cut the track" in an intentional manner, he was trying to regain control of the car after snap oversteer. Vettel was at least defensibly unintentional. Verstappen's was clearly and obviously 100% intentional in driving Leclerc off the track.

Also forgot to mention that the stewards' explanation that "Verstappen was just focused on getting out of the turn as fast as possible" as though that absolves leaving no room for another driver and sending him off the track is absurd. Good news, drivers! Now you don't ever have to leave room for opponents as long as you're "focused on getting through the turn as fast as possible.

Edited by Huckleberry
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52-80

52-80 19226

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37 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

There is no way that shouldn't be a penalty on Verstappen if Vettel got penalized in Canada. You pull about even heading into a turn and through the apex on the inside and then finish the turn still basically even with your outside tires on the edge of the track? That was pretty much BS and I'm not exactly a Ferrari fan (I'm an anyone but Mercedes fan only because of their win rate; well that and their Nazi collaboration I guess).

In Canada Vettel didn't "cut the track" in an intentional manner, he was trying to regain control of the car after snap oversteer. Vettel was at least defensibly unintentional. Verstappen's was clearly and obviously 100% intentional in driving Leclerc off the track.

Also forgot to mention that the stewards' explanation that "Verstappen was just focused on getting out of the turn as fast as possible" as though that absolves leaving no room for another driver and sending him off the track is absurd. Good news, drivers! Now you don't ever have to leave room for opponents as long as you're "focused on getting through the turn as fast as possible.

you'd only have to look at verstappens line and braking point for the other 70 laps to see that that's not the optimal one.  he did it full well knowing he couldnt beat leclerc in racing -- not rubbing -- as evident in the previous lap.  and knowing that the reputation he built for himself sheds him of most blame; "it's just max being max! hyuck". 

 

he was playing a game of chicken and had nothing to lose.  no drivers or constructors or intra-team position up at stake.  charles meanwhile needs his first win and to prove himself against vettel.  maybe if they weren't in open-wheeled cars, it'd be a different ending

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Anton Chigurh

Anton Chigurh 3319

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you'd only have to look at verstappens line and braking point for the other 70 laps to see that that's not the optimal one.  he did it full well knowing he couldnt beat leclerc in racing -- not rubbing -- as evident in the previous lap.  and knowing that the reputation he built for himself sheds him of most blame; "it's just max being max! hyuck". 
 
he was playing a game of chicken and had nothing to lose.  no drivers or constructors or intra-team position up at stake.  charles meanwhile needs his first win and to prove himself against vettel.  maybe if they weren't in open-wheeled cars, it'd be a different ending


Agree except for that I do think he had a fast enough car to pass. He could’ve done it cleanly with a perfect line to defend into T4.
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wood

wood 11243

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3 hours ago, 52-80 said:

you'd only have to look at verstappens line and braking point for the other 70 laps to see that that's not the optimal one.  he did it full well knowing he couldnt beat leclerc in racing -- not rubbing -- as evident in the previous lap.  and knowing that the reputation he built for himself sheds him of most blame; "it's just max being max! hyuck". 

 

he was playing a game of chicken and had nothing to lose.  no drivers or constructors or intra-team position up at stake.  charles meanwhile needs his first win and to prove himself against vettel.  maybe if they weren't in open-wheeled cars, it'd be a different ending

I agree it was dodgy, and I'd like to see more policing of guys forcing people off on corner exit, but we just don't  see it. Alonso and others used to complain about it a lot, but finally gave up and joined the club. 

There's nothing that says Max has to take the optimal line when attacking, or a consistent line through the corner from lap to lap. We esp very commonly see sub-optimal lines being taken by both the defender and the aggressor in tight battles like that one. Leclerc should have opted for a line much less optimal than the racing line on that entry. There was no way Max was getting around him on the outside, but Charles just left a huge open-door invitation on the inside. Max might have gotten him later, but in that situation, you have to defend one corner at a time.

I wouldn't have been surprised with a stewards' decision either in favor of Max or Charles. Such is the way corner exits are regulated in F1.  

One thing I'm fairly sure of though ... get rid of DRS and Max never overtakes Charles.

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wood

wood 11243

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1 minute ago, Goofyboy said:

Any one impressed with George Russel?? He’s passing people in what has to be the worst car on the grid.

Yeah I think he's done a very good job so far. Also very impressed with Lando so far. Great race yesterday. Albon looking good too.

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wood

wood 11243

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1 minute ago, mcbrisket said:

Does Gasly make it the whole season at RBR?

He might, but he shouldn't. He shouldn't be there in the first place. I said it as soon as he was confirmed for that seat and caught a lot of shit for it (not here, I don't think).

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utee94

utee94 15852

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22 minutes ago, wood said:

He might, but he shouldn't. He shouldn't be there in the first place. I said it as soon as he was confirmed for that seat and caught a lot of shit for it (not here, I don't think).

I definitely don't recall anyone giving you shit for that here.  I think many of us were somewhat skeptical.

Occasionally I felt like he had a flash or two of something good, but I felt similarly about Kvyat early on as well, and see how that's turned out...

 

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faps

faps 806

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I guess that would be the next question. Who would they replace him with? Has Kvyat shown he's matured and is no longer the torpedo? Albon probably still too green and could use another season at TR. Do you go outside of F1 and bring in O'Ward?

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relapse98

relapse98 634

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11 minutes ago, mcbrisket said:

I guess that would be the next question. Who would they replace him with? Has Kvyat shown he's matured and is no longer the torpedo? Albon probably still too green and could use another season at TR. Do you go outside of F1 and bring in O'Ward?

Rossi?

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PittsburghTiger

PittsburghTiger 6195

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10 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

There is no way that shouldn't be a penalty on Verstappen if Vettel got penalized in Canada. You pull about even heading into a turn and through the apex on the inside and then finish the turn still basically even with your outside tires on the edge of the track? That was pretty much BS and I'm not exactly a Ferrari fan (I'm an anyone but Mercedes fan only because of their win rate; well that and their Nazi collaboration I guess).

In Canada Vettel didn't "cut the track" in an intentional manner, he was trying to regain control of the car after snap oversteer. Vettel was at least defensibly unintentional. Verstappen's was clearly and obviously 100% intentional in driving Leclerc off the track.

Also forgot to mention that the stewards' explanation that "Verstappen was just focused on getting out of the turn as fast as possible" as though that absolves leaving no room for another driver and sending him off the track is absurd. Good news, drivers! Now you don't ever have to leave room for opponents as long as you're "focused on getting through the turn as fast as possible.

I too am puzzled by how the rules are applied.

9 hours ago, 52-80 said:

you'd only have to look at verstappens line and braking point for the other 70 laps to see that that's not the optimal one.  he did it full well knowing he couldnt beat leclerc in racing -- not rubbing -- as evident in the previous lap.  and knowing that the reputation he built for himself sheds him of most blame; "it's just max being max! hyuck". 

 

he was playing a game of chicken and had nothing to lose.  no drivers or constructors or intra-team position up at stake.  charles meanwhile needs his first win and to prove himself against vettel.  maybe if they weren't in open-wheeled cars, it'd be a different ending

That's one thing I want to look at as well. I was going to give Max the benefit until he basically drove left/straight through that turn. He was nowhere close to the inside of the corner.

7 hours ago, Anton Chigurh said:

 


Agree except for that I do think he had a fast enough car to pass. He could’ve done it cleanly with a perfect line to defend into T4.

 

I think with his tires he would have had a few more chances to get around Charles. 

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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 33072

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The more I think about it the more ridiculous it is. They basically just said that if you're even going through a turn at the apex and you're on the inside that it's okay to simply accelerate as quickly as your car will allow with absolutely no regard for the car on the outside. Will be interesting to see that ruling applied moving forward at turns with walls and gravel closer to the turn (hint: it won't be).

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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 33072

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Dude on the outside might want to hit the brakes or get tagged.

You mean like Hamilton in Canada? Oh wait.

More seriously, they just made it incredibly harder to pass through a turn. Defending is now simply a case of taking the inside line and then driving the challenging car straight off the track even if he's pulled even.

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wood

wood 11243

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1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

The more I think about it the more ridiculous it is. They basically just said that if you're even going through a turn at the apex and you're on the inside that it's okay to simply accelerate as quickly as your car will allow with absolutely no regard for the car on the outside. Will be interesting to see that ruling applied moving forward at turns with walls and gravel closer to the turn (hint: it won't be).

I dunno if it will be or won't be, but it's pretty overwhelmingly been done that way for years. I have thought for years that F1 has a problem when it comes to enforcing how overtaking drivers deal with the overtaken car on corner exit. That problem is that they generally haven't dealt with it and have just let the overtaking driver run the overtaken car right off the track on corner exit under the logic that "the overtaking driver had 'won' the corner and thus had the right to the racing line". It was just a matter of time before we saw someone take it just that little bit farther in a critical, high-profile battle for a high position, and here's the result.

Quote

More seriously, they just made it incredibly harder to pass through a turn. Defending is now simply a case of taking the inside line and then driving the challenging car straight off the track even if he's pulled even.

 I don't like it either, but it's not new.

Edited by wood
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