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2019 Poker run gooder or die thread


AUS-97HORN

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  On 6/18/2019 at 6:07 PM, Lurch said:

You’re not “into it for” anything. What you’ve contributed to a pot is never interesting.

3rd pair is fantastic when they’re chasing draws and folding irrelevant suited connectors and missed sets.

 

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Yeah, I didn't comment on it earlier, but you mentioned this very accurately on AUS-HORN's hand. "Invested in" isn't a good way to think of any poker hand. For example, if you're 8 handed, playing 400/800 blinds, lots of players will over defend the BB if playing BB ante, since they are "in it for 1600", though you should be playing exactly the same as you are if it was 400/800/100.  

Current pot size, remaining stacks, current equity, number of outs to improve, equity if you improve, how much you can win if you improve all matter. How much you personally have put in the pot does not.

  On 6/18/2019 at 6:11 PM, Lurch said:

 


I’d guess it would be declared a misdeal for a fouled deck. No one could trust the rest of the deck so it wouldn’t be fair to players in the hand

 

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Yep yep.

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  On 6/18/2019 at 6:07 PM, Lurch said:

 


You’re not “into it for” anything. What you’ve contributed to a pot is never interesting.

3rd pair is fantastic when they’re chasing draws and folding irrelevant suited connectors and missed sets.

 

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Let's be real.  How many times are you winning pots with a small pocket pair that does not connect with the flop?  Rarely.  And when it does hit, I'd rather have more people in the pot because the likelihood that one of them has a piece and will continue with me is higher.  Yes, you will sometimes lose with a set.  But that doesn't happen very often.,

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  On 6/18/2019 at 6:21 PM, Chewbacca said:
Let's be real.  How many times are you winning pots with a small pocket pair that does not connect with the flop?  Rarely.  And when it does hit, I'd rather have more people in the pot because the likelihood that one of them has a piece and will continue with me is higher.  Yes, you will sometimes lose with a set.  But that doesn't happen very often.,


Frequently, when I’m on the button and the aggressor. Especially in $1/2.

UTG limps $2
UTG+1 limps $2
Lurch on BTN bets $12
SB folds
BB folds
UTG calls
UTG+1 folds.

$29 pot

Flop Jh6d2c

UTG checks
Lurch bets $15

UTG folds.

Lurch nets $14 after rake and we have no idea what cards lurch held. 44, AA or 72o.

Happens all day, every day in this situation. Hands like this are what keeps me afloat when I’m card dead. They’re especially lucrative vs weak players that overpay to chase and then fold to a river bet.

Yes, this doesn’t always go well. Occasionally UTG 3 bets and you congratulate him on his kings and fold. Occasionally UTG floats the flop and the turn and jams the river. Generally, that’s not a bluff. If I saw these happening enough I might consider that I’ve been made, but I can’t recall the last time I felt that at $1/2. $2/5 on the other hand has definitely had occasions where I knew that they knew.
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  On 6/18/2019 at 6:21 PM, Chewbacca said:

Let's be real.  How many times are you winning pots with a small pocket pair that does not connect with the flop?  Rarely.  And when it does hit, I'd rather have more people in the pot because the likelihood that one of them has a piece and will continue with me is higher.  Yes, you will sometimes lose with a set.  But that doesn't happen very often.,

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In position with the action limped to you, so you can be the aggressor?  All the time.  But to Sooners point, it hardly matters on those pots if you have 96o or 44.

 

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  On 6/18/2019 at 7:54 PM, VolenteHawk said:

In position with the action limped to you, so you can be the aggressor?  All the time.  But to Sooners point, it hardly matters on those pots if you have 96o or 44.

 

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Exactly.  So basically you're bluffing.  I like to do that situationally, and it usually works out, but I'm typically not looking to inflate the pot with a small pocket pair unless I hit the flop.  

 

Although I will concede that if you have a weak/passive table, I'll do it a lot more.  The tables I was playing at WSOP and Aria this weekend were not weak, nor were they passive, so that is probably coloring my take here a bit.

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Sooner and Lurch making great points as always. In cash games I tend to lean more towards Lurch's opinion with 44 on the button. It's real close however. Like 77+ I'm 100% raising over limpers. 66-22 I may be more inclined to limp behind on button depending on villians in hand. Arguing 96o vs 44 has its merits, however 44 plays easier/better versus typical villains' limp/calling ranges. Generally speaking. 

Edited by CBT
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  On 6/18/2019 at 8:15 PM, Chewbacca said:
Exactly.  So basically you're bluffing.  I like to do that situationally, and it usually works out, but I'm typically not looking to inflate the pot with a small pocket pair unless I hit the flop.  
 
Although I will concede that if you have a weak/passive table, I'll do it a lot more.  The tables I was playing at WSOP and Aria this weekend were not weak, nor were they passive, so that is probably coloring my take here a bit.


Is it bluffing when you have the best hand? Because your 44 is more often than not the best hand pre when you’re limped to on the button. When checked to on the flop, your bet is a semi bluff at worst. And, again, quite likely the best hand.
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  On 6/18/2019 at 7:45 PM, Lurch said:

So if we’re limping behind w 44 on the button, what is the rest of our button limp behind range?

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Offsuit connectors, 22-66 or so, some suited kings, offsuit broadways, lower suited connectors and one/two gappers. Against tricky/trappy tables I will limp most of my button hands here that I really wanna see the flop with, like suited aces, etc. 

  On 6/18/2019 at 8:15 PM, Chewbacca said:

Exactly.  So basically you're bluffing.  I like to do that situationally, and it usually works out, but I'm typically not looking to inflate the pot with a small pocket pair unless I hit the flop.  

 

Although I will concede that if you have a weak/passive table, I'll do it a lot more.  The tables I was playing at WSOP and Aria this weekend were not weak, nor were they passive, so that is probably coloring my take here a bit.

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Totally agree that on some tables, raising is CLEARLY the best play. Where people see too many flops, and also fold too many flops, you are printing money raising and c-betting. My default is to limp, and I think limping is clearly best on tables that players are tricky/trappy, and/or really sticky post-flop. Lurch's example hand where he c-bets J63 and gets a fold is great, but when 55, AT, Q9 with a backdoor flush draw are all calling, we are in a bad spot on the turn. If those hands all fold the flop, then yep, awesome, we should be doing exactly that.

  On 6/18/2019 at 8:17 PM, CBT said:

Sooner and Lurch making great points as always. In cash games I tend to lean more towards Lurch's opinion with 44 on the button. It's real close however. Like 77+ I'm 100% raising over limpers. 66-22 I may be more inclined to limp behind on button depending on villians in hand. Arguing 96o vs 44 has its merits, however 44 plays easier/better versus typical villains' limp/calling ranges. Generally speaking. 

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Yeah, the higher the pocket pair, the better raising is. We have more boards we like and we dominate more of our opponents' range (the difference in equity for example between 44 and 77 against a hand like 86s or A5s). I was being a bit exaggerated with 96o, but if you told me: $1/2 cash game, $200 stack depth, you went $12 pre over 2 limps and got 2 callers, you're on button, would you rather have J9s or 44, I will take J9s for sure. 

Edited by TXSooner518
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  On 6/18/2019 at 8:35 PM, Lurch said:

 


Is it bluffing when you have the best hand? Because your 44 is more often than not the best hand pre when you’re limped to on the button. When checked to on the flop, your bet is a semi bluff at worst. And, again, quite likely the best hand.

 

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It's often bluffing post flop if you miss.  It's also bluffing with the 96o that Volente was referring to.

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  On 6/18/2019 at 8:35 PM, Lurch said:

Is it bluffing when you have the best hand? Because your 44 is more often than not the best hand pre when you’re limped to on the button. When checked to on the flop, your bet is a semi bluff at worst. And, again, quite likely the best hand.

 

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Ehhh, against the two limping ranges I showed earlier we have 33% equity 3 ways with 44. 

Are you c-betting all flops? I think there are a lot of flops where we will have well under 33% equity against two limp-callers with 44. 

I am curious as to your plan if it goes $12-call in front of you and you have 44 on button. Flat or 3b?

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One of those dudes is usually folding. And, that equity doesn’t include fold equity which is a critical factor in this discussion. I’m riding that BTN for all it’s worth.

 

Yes, cbet all flops until table teaches me I can’t. At that point it will depend on what I know of the other players, but my default is to cbet

 

Flatting an open/call, which to me is a very different situation than a limped to BTN. THIS is the set mining I’m gung-ho about

 

 

 

 

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  On 6/18/2019 at 8:46 PM, Lurch said:

One of those dudes is usually folding. And, that equity doesn’t include fold equity which is a critical factor in this discussion. I’m riding that BTN for all it’s worth.

 

Yes, cbet all flops until table teaches me I can’t. At that point it will depend on what I know of the other players, but my default is to cbet

 

Flatting an open/call, which to me is a very different situation than a limped to BTN. THIS is the set mining I’m gung-ho about

 

 

 

 

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In games I've played and dealt, I think it needs to be $15 to start getting folds most of the time. If you're in a game where people consistently limp-fold to $12, cool, but like what are we doing with KK or AA here then? 

The equity is still how our hand is doing against theirs, meaning we really don't "have the best hand".  Even against two total random hands, we only have 36%. And we we raise, we gain fold equity, but also our hand is doing worse against their ranges, because they are folding the bottom of their ranges, so we are going against the top of our range. 

I think c-betting KQ9 or some such with 44 against two limp-callers is likely suicide, but it's table-dependent, like most things.

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  On 6/18/2019 at 8:58 PM, Lurch said:

I refuse to believe such a $1/2 table exists!

(only slightly kidding)

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Maybe this is part of the disconnect! In 1/2 games I play or deal, loose passives rule the day and lots of these hands are peeling a normal-sized c-bet on the flop. Against a bunch of weak-tights that are folding everything but top pair, then yeah, I'm raising over limpers basically everything playable and c-betting 80%+ of the time because you're printing.

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  On 6/18/2019 at 8:58 PM, TXSooner518 said:

In games I've played and dealt, I think it needs to be $15 to start getting folds most of the time. If you're in a game where people consistently limp-fold to $12, cool, but like what are we doing with KK or AA here then? 

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Remember, I would have gauged  the table to determine what bet size was likely to get me heads up or 3-way.  I'm not trying to induce folds from everyone.  Generally, the blinds are gone, the original limper calls (quite often because he's not a good player, thus the open limp) and one/none of the subsequent limpers comes along as they were only in it because they thought it was going to be a cheap flop.

I have to play KK/AA the same way, of course.  Don't see any alternative because I'm certainly not limping now!

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  On 6/18/2019 at 9:07 PM, Lurch said:

Remember, I would have gauged  the table to determine what bet size was likely to get me heads up or 3-way.  I'm not trying to induce folds from everyone.  Generally, the blinds are gone, the original limper calls (quite often because he's not a good player, thus the open limp) and one/none of the subsequent limpers comes along as they were only in it because they thought it was going to be a cheap flop.

I have to play KK/AA the same way, of course.  Don't see any alternative because I'm certainly not limping now!

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Right, but sometimes it's our first orbit, or the first time we've seen this player limp, etc., so we have to have a default plan. Sometimes we are way off and make it $10 and everyone folds or $15 and we go 5 to the flop.

Ha, nope, I don't advocate limping KK/AA behind on the button. 😁

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  On 6/18/2019 at 9:00 PM, TXSooner518 said:

Maybe this is part of the disconnect! In 1/2 games I play or deal, loose passives rule the day and lots of these hands are peeling a normal-sized c-bet on the flop. Against a bunch of weak-tights that are folding everything but top pair, then yeah, I'm raising over limpers basically everything playable and c-betting 80%+ of the time because you're printing.

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I think it is.  The $1/2 games I play are generally the weaker regs, the complete novices and the olds.  They dont have deep bankrolls and often buy in for $100.  They get agitated when their limps are raised.  They are almost always fit/fold on the flop, particularly when High-Hand is going on.  They may get tricky with their made hands, so care does need to be taken there.

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  On 6/18/2019 at 9:11 PM, TXSooner518 said:

Right, but sometimes it's our first orbit, or the first time we've seen this player limp, etc., so we have to have a default plan. Sometimes we are way off and make it $10 and everyone folds or $15 and we go 5 to the flop.

Ha, nope, I don't advocate limping KK/AA behind on the button. 😁

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If I just sat down, I'd use the 5x+1per rule.  So, an open limp and one caller would be 6BBs, $12.  An open limp and three callers would be $16.

I've noticed when I do this it doesnt take long for others to start matching my bet sizing.  That can be quite informative, because it gives me a bigger sample size to learn from.  I'd guess I have it locked in within 5 orbits most times.

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Alright, here we go. Waiting list for a seat, so let me paint the picture for you.

Typical Tues night at bestbet jax. Four tables of $2/5 running and 5 tables of $2/2. High hand doesn’t begin until 8 (currently 6:30 here) and the casino side of the house is still fairly quiet. There are no big tourneys going on and the jackpot was hit recently so it’s down to $100k

This will be a more difficult night than ideal based off of those factors.

My roll for the night is $600. I’ll sit at $2/2 with $200 and will top off at $100.

I’ll play super tight the first 2-3 orbits (30-45 mins) to learn table and establish a tight image. I’m hoping not to know many of the players since I usually play $2/5, but that might be a stretch on a slower night like this.

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Ok, got on an existing table. Wild already

Seat 1: middle aged black guy w $200
Seat 2: lurch w $200
Seat 3: old Asian (reg) w $900
Seat 4: middle aged white guy w $400 and girlfriend behind (reg)
Seat 5: old black guy w $100
Seat 6: middle age white guy w $100 (likely target)
Seat 7: old black guy w $50 who has rebought twice already while I’ve been here
Seat 8: middle aged white guy w $300. Don’t know him but looks legit
Seat 9: old Asian guy w $150 (reg on $2/5)

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Very first hand, I’m UTG+3. While working w chip runner I look down at QQ. I play it cool and just limp behind first two limpers. Terrible play but I’m not ready to go yet! 1 more limper then BTN makes it $6. BB calls and we all match to go 6-way to flop w $36 in pot

Q82 rainbow. Yatzee! Checks around. God dammit.

J. Checks to me, I go $20. Only BB (shorty in seat 7 calls.

3. He checks, I put him all in for $25 but he folds.

Won the min.

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Several hands later, I check my option in BB w K9o.

6 way w $12 pot

K98 ssx. UTG seat 3 leads out $20. Here we go. Shorty in seat 7 shoves his $27. I call and UTG calls. $93 pot

Qd. I check, UTG makes it $60. I shove, he snaps.... also K9. We chop the remaining $40. Dammit

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4 limps to my BTN w QhQd. I make it $15, BB and all four limpers call.

Oh.

6 way to flop w $90 pot.

Ts 8s 4d. Checks to CO who makes it $12. I just saw him do this earlier but don’t know what it means yet. I make it $45. HJ and CO call. $225 pot

7c. Checks to me. HJ has $55 and CO has $130. I go $75 thinking CO may shove. HJ calls but HJ folds.

Kc and HJ says I win.

$430 stack now

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UTG w 22. I.... limp?

 

2 more limp then BB makes it $15. We all call. $60 pot

 

992. Hey-ooooooo

 

BB makes it $17, I call, others fold. $94 pot.

 

5. He checks w $100 behind. I make it $25 and he just calls.

 

8. He checks and I start counting chips. He holds his stack over the table so I know he’s ready to call my shove. I do, he does. He steam shows his AA when I flip the boat.

 

Back to $450

 

High hand just started and my boat was posted for approximately 7 seconds.

 

 

 

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Two limpers, I follow w 33 in MP. HJ makes it $11. First limper and I call. $36 pot.

 

567. Checks to HJ. He $20, only I call.

 

K. Check to HJ. He confidently fires $50 and I fold.

 

On flop call, I thought maybe AT+ and hoped he’d check turn allowing me to bluff river if I missed

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Table changing quite a bit.
Seat 1 old guy w $75
Seat 2 30ish loud black lady w $30
Seat 3 lurch w$400
Seat 4 mid aged white dude w wizard beard and $200 (reg)
Seat 5 meathead w $125
Seat 6 same target w $300
Seat 7 another meathead w $75
Seat 8 same solid dude w $350
Seat 9 same old asian reg w $350

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