Tesla

[Biff Tannen 46151]

Apparently 146k pre-orders so far.  That blows my damn mind.

[Blotto 24011]

Its a fully refundable $100 deposit. I wouldn't doubt that a large number of deposits are just TSLA stockholders. 

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4999]

36 minutes ago, SquishMitten said:

Maybe it’s like high-fashion runway shows? Trot out something completely absurd, but then the actual line that follows is toned down to something that’s actually wearable, but still “inspired by” elements of the runway design?

The whole concept car thing isn't much different than the fashion industry, but not usually to such extremes.

[Jkwellborn 7032]

Its a fully refundable $100 deposit. I wouldn't doubt that a large number of deposits are just TSLA stockholders. 

That’s pretty laughable if true. Gotta prop stuff up

[Lhorn 5090]

And then the batteries.  Shall we discuss environmental impact of everything that surrounds that mirage?
Naw, let's just go get a taco.
I'm hungry.

What is the current plan for used batteries and their projected impact on the environment? Seems that it’s being completely ignored. Maybe with newer batteries are more recyclable?

[Biff Tannen 46151]

53 minutes ago, Lhorn said:

What is the current plan for used batteries and their projected impact on the environment? Seems that it’s being completely ignored. Maybe with newer batteries are more recyclable?

https://electrek.co/2019/04/16/tesla-battery-recycling-system/

[YChang 3566]

Had no idea how some of y’all are so concerned about environmental impact of batteries and electricity generation.

[52-80 19377]

 

[Cajun 11772]

1 hour ago, YChang said:

Had no idea how some of y’all are so concerned about environmental impact of batteries and electricity generation.

Entertainment seekers everywhere love a pithy fantasy/hypocricy tale.

Good stuff.

[Fudge Nuggets 19453]

4 hours ago, Cajun said:

And then the batteries.  Shall we discuss environmental impact of everything that surrounds that mirage?

Naw, let's just go get a taco.

I'm hungry.

I like tacos.

[Cajun 11772]

6 minutes ago, Fudge Nuggets said:

I like tacos.

 

Edited November 24, 2019 by Cajun

[AeroHorn 793]

11 hours ago, Girdwood said:

Where the fuck do you think electric power comes from you fucking idiot? 

Why you mad though?

For information in easy to understand format, I suggest you get started by perusing the DOE website. https://www.energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/electric-vehicle-benefits. More online searching would definitely be educational.

Personally, I get my electricity from the solar panels on my roof. For my state,  California, about 50% is clean/renewable source energy, with 43.5% being solar, hydro, wind and geothermal, and depending on how you see nuclear, add 8.7% to it. Even if 100% is from burning non-renewable unclean sources, burning it at a power plant instead of in the car engine has many advantages, the main ones being much higher efficiency power extraction, emissions kept much lower and handled more efficiently, and those that are released to atmosphere are away from where people live.

Texas is not up there yet, but it has tremendous potential for wind and solar. Of course, there are challenges, the main one being the uneven production from solar and wind, but there are many solutions being developed. 

Any other questions?

 

[immortal13 4059]

45 minutes ago, AeroHorn said:

Why you mad though?

For information in easy to understand format, I suggest you get started by perusing the DOE website. https://www.energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/electric-vehicle-benefits. More online searching would definitely be educational.

Personally, I get my electricity from the solar panels on my roof. For my state,  California, about 50% is clean/renewable source energy, with 43.5% being solar, hydro, wind and geothermal, and depending on how you see nuclear, add 8.7% to it. Even if 100% is from burning non-renewable unclean sources, burning it at a power plant instead of in the car engine has many advantages, the main ones being much higher efficiency power extraction, emissions kept much lower and handled more efficiently, and those that are released to atmosphere are away from where people live.

Texas is not up there yet, but it has tremendous potential for wind and solar. Of course, there are challenges, the main one being the uneven production from solar and wind, but there are many solutions being developed. 

Any other questions?

 

You're a dumbass

[Pato del Muerto 53451]

52 minutes ago, AeroHorn said:

Why you mad though?

For information in easy to understand format, I suggest you get started by perusing the DOE website. https://www.energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/electric-vehicle-benefits. More online searching would definitely be educational.

Personally, I get my electricity from the solar panels on my roof. For my state,  California, about 50% is clean/renewable source energy, with 43.5% being solar, hydro, wind and geothermal, and depending on how you see nuclear, add 8.7% to it. Even if 100% is from burning non-renewable unclean sources, burning it at a power plant instead of in the car engine has many advantages, the main ones being much higher efficiency power extraction, emissions kept much lower and handled more efficiently, and those that are released to atmosphere are away from where people live.

Texas is not up there yet, but it has tremendous potential for wind and solar. Of course, there are challenges, the main one being the uneven production from solar and wind, but there are many solutions being developed. 

Any other questions?

 

Actually I have one. What’s the environmental impact of manufacturing all the wind mills and solar panels and any other clean energy generating devices(including mining or otherwise collecting the raw materials), relative to just mining and burning coal?

how much cleaner is it?

if renewability is the larger driver, what are the life cycles of those means and are there issues with consuming those raw mats over time?

 

[futureman 22691]

7 hours ago, Biff Tannen said:

Apparently 146k pre-orders so far.  That blows my damn mind.

146k pre-orders?  for the homer?  that blows my damn mind. 

[YChang 3566]

Actually I have one. What’s the environmental impact of manufacturing all the wind mills and solar panels and any other clean energy generating devices(including mining or otherwise collecting the raw materials), relative to just mining and burning coal?

Nothing is free of some sort of cost.. from 2013 about solar:

https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/environmental-impacts-solar-power

[Pato del Muerto 53451]

Thanks, that article pretty much addresses my post point by point for solar. 

[troph 25198]

https://electrek.co/2019/04/16/tesla-battery-recycling-system/

A common question we hear is, “What happens to Tesla vehicle battery packs once they reach their end of life?” An important distinction between fossil fuels and lithium-ion batteries as an energy source is that while fossil fuels are extracted and used once, the materials in a lithium-ion battery are recyclable. When petroleum is pumped out of the ground, chemically refined and then burned, it releases harmful emissions into the atmosphere that are not recovered for reuse. Battery materials, in contrast, are refined and put into a cell, and will still remain at the end of their life, when they can be recycled to recover its valuable materials for reuse over and over again.”

.....


The closed-loop battery recycling process at Gigafactory 1 presents a compelling solution to move energy supply away from the fossil-fuel based practice of take, make and burn, to a more circular model of recycling end-of-life batteries for reuse over and over again. From an economic perspective, we expect to recognize significant savings over the long term, as the costs associated with large-scale battery material recovery and recycling will be far lower than purchasing and transporting new materials.”

[troph 25198]

Thanks, that article pretty much addresses my post point by point for solar. 

 

 

It does and for those not reading the article...

 

 

Most estimates for concentrating solar power range from 0.08 to 0.2 pounds of carbon dioxide equivalent per kilowatt-hour. In both cases, this is far less than the lifecycle emission rates for natural gas (0.6-2 lbs of CO2E/kWh) and coal (1.4-3.6 lbs of CO2E/kWh) [6].

 

.2 vs 3.6 for solar vs coal - I think that’s an 1800% differential?

 

And .2 vs 2 for solar vs natural gas - I think that’s a 1000% differential?

 

Fossil fuels are killing us. Batteries and solar and wind are currently our best answer.

 

[AeroHorn 793]

5 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Actually I have one. What’s the environmental impact of manufacturing all the wind mills and solar panels and any other clean energy generating devices(including mining or otherwise collecting the raw materials), relative to just mining and burning coal?

how much cleaner is it?

if renewability is the larger driver, what are the life cycles of those means and are there issues with consuming those raw mats over time?

 

Very important question. Thank you to others who have already answered it. I'll just link to an exhaustive summary by NREL based off of their detailed reports for each energy type (renewable or otherwise). https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy16osti/65645.pdf

They do the whole life cycle analysis, not only for emissions, but also for the use of other natural resources such as water and land. They also include 2000+ installation sites data, and do quite a bit of statistical normalization.

Slide 10 explains their life cycle calculation methodology

Slide 29 summarizes the emissions across different energy sources in terms of green house gasses. As mentioned earlier, renewables are a small fraction of natural gas and coal.

Slides 46 and 49 summarize water usage. Among renewables, Concentrated Solar Power (CSP) has high recirculating water usage (as expected) but photo voltaic and wind use very little water.

Slides 55 and 56 summarize land usage. Since this is uniquely renewable concern, they have listed only these types. As they explain in the text, the very high land use for wind power is not really accurate because the wind turbine has practically no impact on the land and the land can be used for farming, etc.

 

TL;DR: Very exhaustive full life cycle studies for all natural resources show that renewables, especially solar and wind, have very small impact compared to all other types of energy generation.

Edited November 25, 2019 by AeroHorn

[Biff Tannen 46151]

6 hours ago, AeroHorn said:

TL;DR: Very exhaustive full life cycle studies for all natural resources show that renewables, especially solar and wind, have very small impact compared to all other types of energy generation.

I'm shocked.  SHOCKED I TELL YOU

[Cajun 11772]

And yet...

Quote

Patting yourself on the back for buying a Prius? It might surprise you to find that electric vehicles, dependent on batteries, may have significant negative environmental impact. You may have cut back on greenhouse gas emissions at the pump only to step into other environmental pitfalls.

Here’s something that electric car companies do not want you to know: the materials that make up your car battery are born deep in mines, may be extracted by child labor and in some of the most polluting ways possible. Even if the mining industry were ecologically sustainable, lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries have been known to explode and/or catch fire. Avoiding such incidents, the batteries are extremely difficult to recycle, often resulting in the disposal of a spent, but still toxic and flammable battery in your local landfill.

...

Impact of Extraction

Lithium production in South America doesn’t have so much to do with the element’s availability in the soil, but with water. The Andes mountains are very dry, but the lithium extraction process requires water in no small amount to bring the element up to the surface in a salty brine—500,000 gallons of water per ton of lithium, according to Wired. In some regions in Chile, 65 percent of water is used up in lithium production, diverting it from local food production. The brine then requires 12 to 18 months to evaporate. Any water returned to the farmers could be tainted with chemicals.

...

Another core concern lies in the vast wealth that lithium will represent for these smaller, poorer countries when demand starts to escalate. The lengthy evaporation period for the lithium brine can be sped up by heating the water, a process achieved by burning fossil fuels -- defeating the entire purpose of reducing greenhouse emissions in the first place. But when the price is up and the bottleneck forms, the desire for faster, cheaper production may outweigh our ability to maintain environmental standards.

...

Then there’s cobalt. In addition to the environmental concerns related to lithium production, cobalt mining is unequivocally destructive on multiple levels. Currently, half of the world’s cobalt is produced in the Republic of Congo. Concerning cobalt mining in the Congo region, journalists have revealed human and environmental abuses ranging from child and slave labor, to toxic waste leakage and radioactivity in cobalt mines. “In 2014, according to UNICEF, about 40,000 children were working in mines across southern DRC, many of them extracting cobalt,” The Guardian reported.

Although Tesla is doing everything in its power to lessen the amount of cobalt used in its batteries; reducing cobalt in the cathode directly corresponds to reducing the safety and lifecycle of the battery. Experts say that the lower limit on cobalt has pretty much already been achieved, and to go further would compromise the safety of the car.

Like the mining industry as a whole, graphite and nickel mining is associated with human rights abuses and can lead to pollution in the air and water. Residents near Chinese graphite mines have remarked on the sparkly nature of air particles, with the dust ultimately contaminating food and water supplies. In areas surrounding nickel mines, there have been increased rates of deformities and respiratory problems linked to pollution from nickel mining and smelting. 

In previous interviews addressing materials supply, Tesla has stated that “[suppliers are] three or four layers removed from Tesla. It is obviously quite difficult to have perfect knowledge about everything that happens this far down in the supply chain, but we’ve worked extremely hard to gather as much information as possible and to ensure that our standards are being met.”

etc, etc...

https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDesignArticles/ArticleID/17435/Will-Your-Electric-Car-Save-the-World-or-Wreck-It.aspx

[troph 25198]

And yet...

Patting yourself on the back for buying a Prius? It might surprise you to find that electric vehicles, dependent on batteries, may have significant negative environmental impact. You may have cut back on greenhouse gas emissions at the pump only to step into other environmental pitfalls.

Here’s something that electric car companies do not want you to know: the materials that make up your car battery are born deep in mines, may be extracted by child labor and in some of the most polluting ways possible. Even if the mining industry were ecologically sustainable, lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries have been known to explode and/or catch fire. Avoiding such incidents, the batteries are extremely difficult to recycle, often resulting in the disposal of a spent, but still toxic and flammable battery in your local landfill.

...

Impact of Extraction

Lithium production in South America doesn’t have so much to do with the element’s availability in the soil, but with water. The Andes mountains are very dry, but the lithium extraction process requires water in no small amount to bring the element up to the surface in a salty brine—500,000 gallons of water per ton of lithium, according to Wired. In some regions in Chile, 65 percent of water is used up in lithium production, diverting it from local food production. The brine then requires 12 to 18 months to evaporate. Any water returned to the farmers could be tainted with chemicals.

...

Another core concern lies in the vast wealth that lithium will represent for these smaller, poorer countries when demand starts to escalate. The lengthy evaporation period for the lithium brine can be sped up by heating the water, a process achieved by burning fossil fuels -- defeating the entire purpose of reducing greenhouse emissions in the first place. But when the price is up and the bottleneck forms, the desire for faster, cheaper production may outweigh our ability to maintain environmental standards.

...

Then there’s cobalt. In addition to the environmental concerns related to lithium production, cobalt mining is unequivocally destructive on multiple levels. Currently, half of the world’s cobalt is produced in the Republic of Congo. Concerning cobalt mining in the Congo region, journalists have revealed human and environmental abuses ranging from child and slave labor, to toxic waste leakage and radioactivity in cobalt mines. “In 2014, according to UNICEF, about 40,000 children were working in mines across southern DRC, many of them extracting cobalt,” The Guardian reported.

Although Tesla is doing everything in its power to lessen the amount of cobalt used in its batteries; reducing cobalt in the cathode directly corresponds to reducing the safety and lifecycle of the battery. Experts say that the lower limit on cobalt has pretty much already been achieved, and to go further would compromise the safety of the car.

Like the mining industry as a whole, graphite and nickel mining is associated with human rights abuses and can lead to pollution in the air and water. Residents near Chinese graphite mines have remarked on the sparkly nature of air particles, with the dust ultimately contaminating food and water supplies. In areas surrounding nickel mines, there have been increased rates of deformities and respiratory problems linked to pollution from nickel mining and smelting. 

In previous interviews addressing materials supply, Tesla has stated that “[suppliers are] three or four layers removed from Tesla. It is obviously quite difficult to have perfect knowledge about everything that happens this far down in the supply chain, but we’ve worked extremely hard to gather as much information as possible and to ensure that our standards are being met.”

etc, etc...

https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDesignArticles/ArticleID/17435/Will-Your-Electric-Car-Save-the-World-or-Wreck-It.aspx


1. It’s still less impactful on the atmosphere than gasoline.

2. Recycling technology is improving.

3. Many of those problems can/need to be fixed but there are solutions unlike fossil fuels.

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3873]

21 hours ago, SquishMitten said:

Maybe it’s like high-fashion runway shows? Trot out something completely absurd, but then the actual line that follows is toned down to something that’s actually wearable, but still “inspired by” elements of the runway design?

Nope.

With eliminating a tradition chassis and having the body carry the load there are very few shapes that can handle those forces. Add in the 30 times folded hardened steel and no present steel press can stamp it.  Tesla was pretty much left with the shape shown and even that requires scoring the backside to be able to fold it on a straight line.

On the bright side nobody is keying one.

[Pasken 1310]

Just put down a deposit.

[Cajun 11772]

2 hours ago, troph said:

https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDesignArticles/ArticleID/17435/Will-Your-Electric-Car-Save-the-World-or-Wreck-It.aspx


1. It’s still less impactful on the atmosphere than gasoline.

2. Recycling technology is improving.

3. Many of those problems can/need to be fixed but there are solutions unlike fossil fuels.

So take that engineering.com!

[Cajun 11772]

What we need are solar powered wakeboard boats that throw off a kickass curl!

I know you'd agree with me there Troph.

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3873]

17 hours ago, AeroHorn said:

Texas is not up there yet, but it has tremendous potential for wind and solar. Of course, there are challenges, the main one being the uneven production from solar and wind, but there are many solutions being developed. 

Any other questions?

 

Saw an analysis that with present battery prices a Tesla PowerWall can pay off in 10 years for those on the grid that get reduced over night rates. In some ideal locales it can be in as little as 6 years.

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3873]

3 hours ago, Cajun said:

And yet...

https://www.engineering.com/ElectronicsDesign/ElectronicsDesignArticles/ArticleID/17435/Will-Your-Electric-Car-Save-the-World-or-Wreck-It.aspx

Hilarious that the BroBozer drivers are suddenly environmentalist when electric vehicles' impact are involved yet totally uninterested in their ICEs environmental impact.

[Biff Tannen 46151]

24 minutes ago, ShaggyBevo RIP said:

Hilarious that the BroBozer drivers are suddenly environmentalist when electric vehicles' impact are involved yet totally uninterested in their ICEs environmental impact.

One would almost think they aren't arguing in good faith, but surely that couldn't be.

[Cajun 11772]

1 hour ago, ShaggyBevo RIP said:

Hilarious that the BroBozer drivers are suddenly environmentalist when electric vehicles' impact are involved yet totally uninterested in their ICEs environmental impact.

Does a Hybrid Accord count as a BroBozer?

asking for a friend.

You assume a lot.

Edited November 25, 2019 by Cajun

[troph 25198]

What we need are solar powered wakeboard boats that throw off a kickass curl!
I know you'd agree with me there Troph.

Yeah that’s too much. Gotta have priorities! I’ll keep my gas guzzler on the water...

[Cajun 11772]

32 minutes ago, troph said:

Yeah that’s too much. Gotta have priorities! I’ll keep my gas guzzler on the water...

 

[Cajun 11772]

I don't know though Troph...

That's a lot less hideous than that "truck".  I'll have to check and see if topless bitches would be dingin' up my solar panels.

Seems like it'd fit nicely on Lake Austin, right?

[Armybrat 41388]

1 hour ago, troph said:

Yeah that’s too much. Gotta have priorities! I’ll keep my gas guzzler on the water...

Not a fan of blowboats?

[troph 25198]

I don't know though Troph...

That's a lot less hideous than that "truck".  I'll have to check and see if topless bitches would be dingin' up my solar panels.
Seems like it'd fit nicely on Lake Austin, right?

I’m not buying that truck. And that boat you show is slick, even I could get the straight women to hang around with that on LT.

[SquishMitten 10496]

Well, yeah. Looks like something out of a Bond movie. Bitches love Bond. Get yourself a British accent and you’d be set

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2651]

The truck is actually growing on me.  
 

that Said I don’t give two shits about the electric part.  I’ve decided I kid Xian is exited he finally gets a blade runner car. 

[Pato del Muerto 53451]

You still have a horn

[Cajun 11772]

56 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Do don't drive a Prius like me?

Fucking poser, stay out of Austin. (Says the guy that lives in a holler in TN)

On the downside he deer don't hear me coming and look at me like an alien when I sneak up on them on the road.

Looks like I’ve got my next hunting vehicle chosen.

Thanks!!!

[NowThis 931]

- the all granite dashboard seems unsafe in a crash. Do you really want your head smashed on that?

- where are the air vents?

- is the headlight legal, not too bright? I get blinded by extreme lights (f you guys) - particularly on BMW/Mercedes which seem to be stock lights.

- is the bed always covered? Where is the lid stored when open?

- is there a sound system?

[Prepuce of Doom 21285]

 

 

[Pasken 1310]

 

[Biff Tannen 46151]

I actually talked to a co-worker today who pre-ordered one.  I just, I can't make myself like it.

[Blotto 24011]

Apparently Elon drives like a suburban mom forced to drive their husbands F-250.

Quote

While it initially seems like Musk ran a red light leaving Nobu, a closer look at Google Street View shows this particular exit of the parking lot doesn’t have its own light. But Street View also shows that the sign Musk hit is there to tell Nobu patrons they can only make a right turn out of the parking lot. Musk went left, clipping the sign and crossing in front of cars that had just received a green light.

 

[Pato del Muerto 53451]

So it’s not autopiloted?

[B00M 6729]

15 hours ago, Blotto said:

Apparently Elon drives like a suburban mom forced to drive their husbands F-250.

 

This fucking guy. I sweater gawd it's like if Tommy Boy studied engineering for 7 years and used his family fortune to build rockets and cars and shit.

[elfenix 34744]

Delivered 112,000 last quarter, including 92,550 model 3s

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/03/tesla-tsla-4q-2019-production-and-delivery-numbers.html

[Biff Tannen 46151]

Just chugging along.

[CooterBrown 18287]

Spent the day driving my friend’s Model 3. I get the hype now. It is phenomenal.