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Ted Lange

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elfenix

elfenix 34658

Posted
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

But, should Oak Cliff and South Oak Cliff in Dallas be combined, merely because geography is better?

i don't know shit about dallas burbs or dallas texmex, despite the username.  i'm not the person to ask about this.

11 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

Is Austin monolithic?  Dallas?  Houston?  San Antonio?

That's why I want to a better explanation of communities of interest...

no and i don't think anyone claimed they were.  bozo didn't say communities of interest, he said local community and local interest. the interest of the urban core is different than the interest of the farmer in prairie lea and both are different from the interest of the commuter in cypress, katy, or kingwood.  yet the gerrymanderers use those areas to dilute others.   largely because they've gotten really good at predicting how (or whether, just as importantly) individuals vote. 

i'd say we have a pretty strong need to add seats to the HoR so that districts can be more local.  but as i said somewhere around here, in a era of big data and partisan gerrymanders being A-OK under the current court majority's concept of the constitution, i don't trust anyone to actually draw the districts. certainly not the political parties. 

 

 

i'm waiting for this site to come up because it might be interesting to play around with for a bit:

https://davesredistricting.org/maps#

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106618

Posted
Posted

On topic....got this nutbar shit in a PM from someone who REALLY thinks that’s it’s important that we know Sima’s ethnicity. It’s, like, SUPER important:

 

 

 

 

I noticed you guys talking about this Sima Ladjevardian from Texas running for Congress — just want to correct the record she is Not Armenian - she’s Persian Iranian - many of their surnames also end with “ian”. Armenian-Americans are bipartisan - and most of us support Dan Crenshaw : He stands up for Christians in the Middle East. We love and respect him. He also stood by us on the side of Truth and Justice with the Resolution of Armenian Genocide adopted in fall 2019. Ladjevardian is Not Armenian. She’s Iranian. [/Quote]

 

Remember, guys, do NOT support her. Because she’s Iranian.

 

Signed, supporters of a political party that is totally NOT racist

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ChiTownDoc

ChiTownDoc 21323

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

On topic....got this nutbar shit in a PM from someone who REALLY thinks that’s it’s important that we know Sima’s ethnicity. It’s, like, SUPER important:

 

 

 

 

 

You don't have to tell us who it was.  But...Has that person ever got high af on meth and taken it up the poopchute from a tranny?  

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106618

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Posted
You don't have to tell us who it was.  But...Has that person ever got high af on meth and taken it up the poopchute from a tranny?  

New random poster, actually. And he clearly thinks Iranians are scum...not like a certain jersey wearer who thinks Persians are gods chosen people.
While his party uses that exact same ethnicity as a disqualifier. It would be funny if it wasn’t so damned pathetic. He worships at their altar, and they think he’s scum because he’s Iranian.
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ChiTownDoc

ChiTownDoc 21323

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2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:


New random poster, actually. And he clearly thinks Iranians are scum...not like a certain jersey wearer who thinks Persians are gods chosen people.
While his party uses that exact same ethnicity as a disqualifier. It would be funny if it wasn’t so damned pathetic. He worships at their altar, and they think he’s scum because he’s Iranian.

Iranian Irony.  Sadz

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MaybeACoordinator

MaybeACoordinator 8350

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

On topic....got this nutbar shit in a PM from someone who REALLY thinks that’s it’s important that we know Sima’s ethnicity. It’s, like, SUPER important:

 

 

 

 

 

Persian, Armenian....in Sima's case what really truly matters is that it's all pink in the middle. 

sima-ladjevardian-wearing-bulgari-at-bul

That, and she's brilliant and not Dan fucking Crenshaw.

 

 

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Post Oak

Post Oak 20551

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2 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

I follow her on FB, as it’s my district. She needs to pick up her game. It’s pretty weak and sparse, just calling Cyclops out over covid repeatedly. Needs more teeth, more variance, and more activity. 

That's what I noticed about MJ too.  She needs to get dirty now.

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SydneyCarton

SydneyCarton 49325

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7 minutes ago, Post Oak said:

That's what I noticed about MJ too.  She needs to get dirty now.

Honestly it’s not just dirty. It’s activity. A post or tweet every other day spamming him on Covid isn’t enough. I want to see her taking about issues 3-4 times a day on a FB (I don’t use Twitter). And more than covid. Attack everyrhing his dumb ass has said, and he’s said some dumb shit. His voting record. Get dirty if you want but step one is get active. This passive bullshit isn’t going to cut it, and she’ll get embarrassed. 

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Huckleberry

Huckleberry 34407

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Posted
On 7/17/2020 at 7:53 PM, Wulaw Horn said:

That’s different than the tweet I responded to. That tweet was on keeping with the standards of that day. 

Do you not see the problem with being presented with over a dozen cases of someone being a dangerous idiot and the only thing you bother to respond to is "HEY WAIT A SECOND. In this one example he wasn't being a dangerous idiot."

Who gives a shit?

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client may very well have killed 14 of the 15 people he's accused of killing, BUT WAIT A SECOND he didn't kill that one. You must acquit. Thank you."

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ryskey

ryskey 449

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On 7/17/2020 at 9:59 PM, Ag with kids said:

Somehow I got sucked back into this thread...

But, I've pondered this question a few times since the last time I was here.

Explain to me in detail exactly the cost it has.  Explain how that cost is related to and not related to partisanship.   Also explain how local community and local interest representation is completely different than anything partisan.  Additional points if you can describe how districts can be drawn that don't have any partisan influence. Be sure to allow for laws that require a certain number of majority minority districts, which, not surprisingly, are completely partisan and will be hard to reconcile with the overall plan.

Then, describe how these districts can be drawn IN REALITY, NOT IN THEORY taking into account the limited amount of representatives seats in state legislatures and the HoR as well as population.

Your questions have been answered pretty extensively, just takes a little searching.  Lots of advanced tech in GIS, analytics, advanced algorithms, and AI have made all of this pretty quantifiable and pretty fast.  That's all unfortunately being used right now to make gerrymandering worse.  Let's just start using it for good instead of for bullshit.

Start here:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/we-drew-2568-congressional-districts-by-hand-heres-how/

You'll notice scenarios that basically outline the criteria you provided.  If the goal is to redraw districts in a way that is completely blind to partisan influence, #7 and #8 do that.  If you think counties are an adequate representation of "communities of interest," you'd probably prefer #8 (you can switch maps at the top):

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-maps/#Compact

This is also a good read if you're interested in how to do this without partisan influence, but also allowing some resource allocation capabilities:

https://phys.org/news/2017-11-algorithm-combat-gerrymandering.html

This all really isn't any different from the technology that city planners use to place resources throughout the community (link above mentions placing fire stations so you can serve the most people with the fewest resources).  It's also generally the approach big chains (McDonald's etc) use to place restaurants in order to keep profitability high.  

You can do something even more simple like minimize the average ratio of perimeter to area for all districts.

Our society and economy are already very good at solving these problems, and in the exact ways you described.  The problem is the lack of political will to use them or advocate for them.

At some point, Dems will be the ones in control of how districts are drawn.  I don't want that, and you probably don't either.  Why not get on board right now and prevent the generational yoyo of partisan gerrymandering bullshit?  It's terrible in both directions.  

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Foosters

Foosters 18225

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Posted
58 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Do you not see the problem with being presented with over a dozen cases of someone being a dangerous idiot and the only thing you bother to respond to is "HEY WAIT A SECOND. In this one example he wasn't being a dangerous idiot."

Who gives a shit?

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client may very well have killed 14 of the 15 people he's accused of killing, BUT WAIT A SECOND he didn't kill that one. You must acquit. Thank you."

Wulaw is this board's Susan Collins. Lots of folks fall for the principled conservative shtick.

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hayden_horn

hayden_horn 11401

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On 7/17/2020 at 11:06 PM, Ag with kids said:

No.  I'm asking @Bozo_Casanova to explain this.  He's called me out twice here.

And we both used to have actual civil discourse on the subject...which is why I didn't make my post an attack or an ad hominem.  I have a lot of respect for him.

Maybe I'm trying (and I know I'll fail) to raise the level of discourse here...

well, you're just asking questions.

this is the tactic that i despise. look at that fucking district map of texas and defend that shit. your questions are, in essence, a defense of that. you are trying to ask someone else how to fix something that is so broken you cannot defend it.

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StassneyHorn

StassneyHorn 6755

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, ryskey said:

Your questions have been answered pretty extensively, just takes a little searching.  Lots of advanced tech in GIS, analytics, advanced algorithms, and AI have made all of this pretty quantifiable and pretty fast.  That's all unfortunately being used right now to make gerrymandering worse.  Let's just start using it for good instead of for bullshit.

Start here:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/we-drew-2568-congressional-districts-by-hand-heres-how/

You'll notice scenarios that basically outline the criteria you provided.  If the goal is to redraw districts in a way that is completely blind to partisan influence, #7 and #8 do that.  If you think counties are an adequate representation of "communities of interest," you'd probably prefer #8 (you can switch maps at the top):

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-maps/#Compact

This is also a good read if you're interested in how to do this without partisan influence, but also allowing some resource allocation capabilities:

https://phys.org/news/2017-11-algorithm-combat-gerrymandering.html

This all really isn't any different from the technology that city planners use to place resources throughout the community (link above mentions placing fire stations so you can serve the most people with the fewest resources).  It's also generally the approach big chains (McDonald's etc) use to place restaurants in order to keep profitability high.  

You can do something even more simple like minimize the average ratio of perimeter to area for all districts.

Our society and economy are already very good at solving these problems, and in the exact ways you described.  The problem is the lack of political will to use them or advocate for them.

At some point, Dems will be the ones in control of how districts are drawn.  I don't want that, and you probably don't either.  Why not get on board right now and prevent the generational yoyo of partisan gerrymandering bullshit?  It's terrible in both directions.  

Thanks for posting. Their gerrymandering podcast series from a couple years goes into in depth discussions on all of this. Listened to the episodes in one day during a thunderstorm and have posted here before. Definitely worth the listen and hits on all angles.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-gerrymandering-project/id1336743759

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Wulaw Horn

Wulaw Horn 19560

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2 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Do you not see the problem with being presented with over a dozen cases of someone being a dangerous idiot and the only thing you bother to respond to is "HEY WAIT A SECOND. In this one example he wasn't being a dangerous idiot."

Who gives a shit?

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client may very well have killed 14 of the 15 people he's accused of killing, BUT WAIT A SECOND he didn't kill that one. You must acquit. Thank you."

I wasn’t responding to anything other than what I saw, which was literally the one tweet posted that I responded to as a gotcha. If 20 of them were posted I’d not have responded to anything. I didn’t know there was more than what I was responding to. If that means I got “owned” whatever. Guilty of not knowing there were 19 other tweets. I’m sure I will be able to pick Myself up and move on, but I’m the meantime nothing I said was wrong. 

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gmr548

gmr548 16681

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Posted
Hey man, I live at 2222 and Mopac.  My rep is Michael McCaul, whose district takes a sliver of central Austin, then fans out east to catch La Grange, Brenham, etc and goes all the way to Katy.  How is someone supposed to serve the interests of Central Austin AND the good people of Columbus, TX.?  Not a whole lot of overlap there.
Lived in the same NW Austin portion of TX-10 for the past few years. My girlfriend moved back in with her parents in Cypress, NW Houston suburb, while attending graduate school. Same fucking congressional district. Meanwhile, Austin and Houston are split to all hell. My mom near Parmer and MoPac is in a different district. Ridiculous.

Also, McCaul is the largest residential water user in Austin and one of the richest house members. Fuck that sack of shit.
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SydneyCarton

SydneyCarton 49325

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Posted
1 hour ago, Irwin F Fletcher said:

Seems like there are a few of us Surly assholes in Dan's district. We should see if Sima wants to hold a SurlyPac happy hour at some point. 

I’d be interested. I’m considering donating directly. But I’m not liking her chances 

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Hank Scorpio

Hank Scorpio 17924

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Irwin F Fletcher said:

Seems like there are a few of us Surly assholes in Dan's district. We should see if Sima wants to hold a SurlyPac happy hour at some point. 

This is a terrible idea. We’d all just run away as soon as a woman approached us. 

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bolverk

bolverk 30231

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

Honestly it’s not just dirty. It’s activity. A post or tweet every other day spamming him on Covid isn’t enough. I want to see her taking about issues 3-4 times a day on a FB (I don’t use Twitter). And more than covid. Attack everyrhing his dumb ass has said, and he’s said some dumb shit. His voting record. Get dirty if you want but step one is get active. This passive bullshit isn’t going to cut it, and she’ll get embarrassed. 

Send a link of this thread to whomever is running her Facebook account. Her campaign would have a lot to work from. There's probably no place else on the internet that has compiled and criticized his numbnuttery is such a concise and opensourced way. All the content is here.

I'm serious.

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Planet Houston

Planet Houston 4949

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Irwin F Fletcher said:

Seems like there are a few of us Surly assholes in Dan's district. We should see if Sima wants to hold a SurlyPac happy hour at some point. 

 

3 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

I’d be interested. I’m considering donating directly. But I’m not liking her chances 

 

2 hours ago, bolverk said:

Send a link of this thread to whomever is running her Facebook account. Her campaign would have a lot to work from. There's probably no place else on the internet that has compiled and criticized his numbnuttery is such a concise and opensourced way. All the content is here.

I'm serious.

I don’t Facebook, but y’all raise a good point that someone needs to be asking her camp why she isn’t on the offensive. I’m in this district too. I’m all for further brainstorming on this - something more than a modest donation. 

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Ag with kids

Ag with kids 581

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

well, you're just asking questions.

this is the tactic that i despise. look at that fucking district map of texas and defend that shit. your questions are, in essence, a defense of that. you are trying to ask someone else how to fix something that is so broken you cannot defend it.

No, I'm asking bozo to clarify things for me.  I'm an engineer,  Merely telling me "this is bad" or "this is wrong" is useless to me.  I need details about WHY it's bad and WHY it's wrong and also I'd like to understand what his view is on rectifying the unfavorable maps.

NOTE:  This does NOT mean that I think the current maps are good for you reading comprehension-challenged posters...

I read the post above where they came up with a whole bunch of different maps.  But, do those actually meet the @Bozo_Casanova criteria for local and community interests?

The one that was supposed to be the closest was trying to use county boundaries as much as possible...

But, is all of Travis County a community and local interest?  How about Dallas County - Plano and Lancaster are both suburbs of Dallas inside Dallas County...and they have very few community interests,

So, I'm trying to nail down the definitions and requirements for meeting the criteria of local and community interests...

 

Sorry that you just want to insult me.  I used to post a lot on Hornfans and Shaggy...but, I've seen that this place is closer to Democratic Underground than either of those sites...so I stay away,  Got sucked in a little bit lately though...against my better judgement.

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Irwin F Fletcher

Irwin F Fletcher 3555

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Posted
I don’t Facebook, but y’all raise a good point that someone needs to be asking her camp why she isn’t on the offensive. I’m in this district too. I’m all for further brainstorming on this - something more than a modest donation. 
Let's make a difference. I've signed up to volunteer for her campaign (haven't heard back yet) and I know a few influential people that could get a message to her directly.
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Captainant

Captainant 28387

Posted
Posted
42 minutes ago, Ag with kids said:

No, I'm asking bozo to clarify things for me.  I'm an engineer,  Merely telling me "this is bad" or "this is wrong" is useless to me.  I need details about WHY it's bad and WHY it's wrong and also I'd like to understand what his view is on rectifying the unfavorable maps.

NOTE:  This does NOT mean that I think the current maps are good for you reading comprehension-challenged posters...

I read the post above where they came up with a whole bunch of different maps.  But, do those actually meet the @Bozo_Casanova criteria for local and community interests?

The one that was supposed to be the closest was trying to use county boundaries as much as possible...

But, is all of Travis County a community and local interest?  How about Dallas County - Plano and Lancaster are both suburbs of Dallas inside Dallas County...and they have very few community interests,

So, I'm trying to nail down the definitions and requirements for meeting the criteria of local and community interests...

 

Sorry that you just want to insult me.  I used to post a lot on Hornfans and Shaggy...but, I've seen that this place is closer to Democratic Underground than either of those sites...so I stay away,  Got sucked in a little bit lately though...against my better judgement.

In terms of data driven definitions of a badly gerrymandered district, a straightforward examination of lopsided wins and % of votes cast for a party compared to the % of seats they actually win. 

Princeton did a good study on it, it's got some good analytical work. 538 did a podcast series on it, the first 30m episode is a good mini lecture on the empirical definition of gerrymandering

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SydneyCarton

SydneyCarton 49325

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, Irwin F Fletcher said:
5 hours ago, Planet Houston said:
I don’t Facebook, but y’all raise a good point that someone needs to be asking her camp why she isn’t on the offensive. I’m in this district too. I’m all for further brainstorming on this - something more than a modest donation. 

Let's make a difference. I've signed up to volunteer for her campaign (haven't heard back yet) and I know a few influential people that could get a message to her directly.

Not hearing back when offering to volunteer also seems like a bad look to me. Maybe you should have one of your friends link to this thread, like Bolverk suggested? I was hoping her digital campaign was just poor, but I don’t hear radio ads or see TV spend either, and now I’m worried her whole organization is just piecemeal. 

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Sawbonz

Sawbonz 28081

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

well, you're just asking questions.

this is the tactic that i despise. look at that fucking district map of texas and defend that shit. your questions are, in essence, a defense of that. you are trying to ask someone else how to fix something that is so broken you cannot defend it.

I don’t want to get in the weeds with this particular argument but I have to say the “just asking questions” rebuttal is just another form of ad hominem fallacy in many of the cases I’ve seen it used on the internet. Asking questions is an extremely effective method to ascertain consistencies (or inconsistencies) in a position on a topic and fact check the premises that the position rests upon. You may have heard of a guy named Socrates. He was fond of asking questions to get to truth. 

With the exception of obvious trolling, dismissing someone for “just asking questions” is intellectually lazy. This doesn’t seem to be the case here but I could be wrong.   

Ryskey’s response is spot on IMO
 

As far as the ultimate fix for gerrymandering, I think we should significantly increase the number of congressmen. There are 650 MPs in the UK with 1/5 our population. 400 and change representatives for 330M people is ridiculously inadequate 

 

Edited by Sawbonz
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SydneyCarton

SydneyCarton 49325

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I don’t want to get in the weeds with this particular argument but I have to say the “just asking questions” rebuttal is just another form of ad hominem fallacy in many of the cases I’ve seen it used on the internet. Asking questions is an extremely effective method to ascertain consistencies (or inconsistencies) in a position on a topic and fact check the premises that the position rests upon. You may have heard of a guy named Socrates. He was fond of asking questions to get to truth. 

With the exception of obvious trolling, dismissing someone for “just asking questions” is intellectually lazy. This doesn’t seem to be the case here but I could be wrong.   

Ryskey’s response is spot on IMO
 

As far as the ultimate fix for gerrymandering, I think we should significantly increase the number of congressman. There are 650 MPs in the UK with 1/5 our population. 200 and change representatives for 330M people is ridiculously inadequate 

 

I’d be perfectly happy with more reps. But honestly, these motherfuckers already get paid and obscene benefits. And that’s before the graft. Then again, you pay them less maybe they graft more. Maybe smaller districts and a thousand reps would water down the ability for corporations to buy blocks of them? I dunno, just thinking out loud here. 

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Fudge Nuggets

Fudge Nuggets 19407

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Posted
20 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client may very well have killed 14 of the 15 people he's accused of killing, BUT WAIT A SECOND he didn't kill that one. You must acquit. Thank you."

Kind of worked that way for Henry Lee Lucas; well death sentence got thrown out but all the life sentences still did him in.

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29556

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11 hours ago, Ag with kids said:

No, I'm asking bozo to clarify things for me.  I'm an engineer,  Merely telling me "this is bad" or "this is wrong" is useless to me.  I need details about WHY it's bad and WHY it's wrong and also I'd like to understand what his view is on rectifying the unfavorable maps.

NOTE:  This does NOT mean that I think the current maps are good for you reading comprehension-challenged posters...

I read the post above where they came up with a whole bunch of different maps.  But, do those actually meet the @Bozo_Casanova criteria for local and community interests?

The one that was supposed to be the closest was trying to use county boundaries as much as possible...

But, is all of Travis County a community and local interest?  How about Dallas County - Plano and Lancaster are both suburbs of Dallas inside Dallas County...and they have very few community interests,

So, I'm trying to nail down the definitions and requirements for meeting the criteria of local and community interests...

 

Sorry that you just want to insult me.  I used to post a lot on Hornfans and Shaggy...but, I've seen that this place is closer to Democratic Underground than either of those sites...so I stay away,  Got sucked in a little bit lately though...against my better judgement.

Well one reason the current extent and ridiculousness of gerrymandering is so bad is it has substantially decreased the number of competitive districts. In a competitive district, each party has to nominate a candidate that is at least acceptable to some members of the opposing party, providing an incentive against nominating, say, a dozen QAnon freaks. In a non-competitive district in which someone only really needs to worry about winning a primary, the incentives run the other way: the craziest asshole will probably win, because the craziest assholes in the base are the ones that turn out for primaries.

When you draw the districts in a way that maximizes the number of competitive districts, you get more moderate politics. When you maximize the number of safe seats your party can possibly hold, you get a bunch of dumb, crazy assholes who want to destroy democracy to maintain their power, which I hope you understand really pisses the rest of us off.

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wildcat09

wildcat09 29556

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Posted
4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

I’d be perfectly happy with more reps. But honestly, these motherfuckers already get paid and obscene benefits. And that’s before the graft. Then again, you pay them less maybe they graft more. Maybe smaller districts and a thousand reps would water down the ability for corporations to buy blocks of them? I dunno, just thinking out loud here. 

I think we need more reps but I don't really have a good idea how many more I think would be best, but I absolutely think that reps should also be paid more and be given more money to hire better staff.  Yeah House reps make what a lot of people would consider good money, but there's a reason a ton of them sleep in their offices.

You want good people to run for those jobs? Pay better for them and make it extremely illegal for them to abuse their power for their personal gain (I believe @Brisketexan has frequently recommended double or triple the punishment for public officials caught committing crimes against the public trust). You want bad people to run for them? Pay shit but give them plenty of opportunities for graft. We don't exactly pay dogshit salaries, but we don't pay much for what should be a very important position. So we get a bunch of scum that run for their ability to parlay that experience into lobbying careers.

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Mdhorn

Mdhorn 6153

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Posted
21 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I think we need more reps but I don't really have a good idea how many more I think would be best, but I absolutely think that reps should also be paid more and be given more money to hire better staff.  Yeah House reps make what a lot of people would consider good money, but there's a reason a ton of them sleep in their offices.

You want good people to run for those jobs? Pay better for them and make it extremely illegal for them to abuse their power for their personal gain (I believe @Brisketexan has frequently recommended double or triple the punishment for public officials caught committing crimes against the public trust). You want bad people to run for them? Pay shit but give them plenty of opportunities for graft. We don't exactly pay dogshit salaries, but we don't pay much for what should be a very important position. So we get a bunch of scum that run for their ability to parlay that experience into lobbying careers.

This is the argument applied to police, educators and other public offices.  While I agree, the first things cut are salaries for lower public officials.  Some Congressional interns get to pay high DC housing costs for no wage.  Democrats like AOC lobby to pay more to staffers and the party not in favor?  

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