Dallas Cowboys 2019 Offseason Thread of Mediocrity

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

21 minutes ago, Drew said:

And the reverse is true too.  You don't think Dak's team has a really good argument for getting more than Wentz?

I believe they have a good argument, but if both are healthy and all things are equal, I’d take wentz over Dak. I know a lot of y’all disagree, but I don’t see how that’s even debatable (with the caveat that both are 100% healthy). If you’re asking me who would I rather have in the 4th quarter in a tie/one score game (money time), I’ll probably take Dak. If you’re asking who is more reliable from a “knowing exactly what you’re going to get from game to game” standpoint, I’ll take Dak. But wentz is a lot more talented. A lot more. Plus, he’s looked like an MVP caliber player two years ago and at times last year. The only real question with wentz is his health, and that’s a real question (obviously), and his leadership qualities. Those questions are going to be answered one way or another this year.

 

I’d be a lot more comfortable giving wentz 32mil a year and hoping that he stays healthy than i would be giving Dak 32+mil a year and hoping that he continues to progress. Both are gambles, but one seems like bad luck as much as anything. The other is going to take a lot of hard work with a coaching staff that we still don’t know for sure that we can trust. Wentz has that obvious advantage over Dak. A coaching staff that is innovative, and a front office that seems to make a lot of smart decisions. Our front office makes good decisions as well, but then there’s the coaching staff...

Edited August 13, 2019 by youdunnf'dup

[Drew 2,408]

Who you'd take wasn't the question, and honestly not worth debating as most would take Wentz over Dak, BUT there are huge red flags(like his health...anytime you gotta say "IF he stays healthy" it's not a good thing) with him that bring his value down IMO.

The point was that a case could be made for BOTH guys getting paid more than the other. 

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

7 minutes ago, Drew said:

Who you'd take wasn't the question, and honestly not worth debating as most would take Wentz over Dak, BUT there are huge red flags(like his health...anytime you gotta say "IF he stays healthy" it's not a good thing) with him that bring his value down IMO.

The point was that a case could be made for BOTH guys getting paid more than the other. 

Sure, but that doesn’t mean it would be smart to do it. We have to dig in on this one. Dak shouldn’t be getting paid more than Wentz if wentz’s number is 32mil a year. He just shouldn’t. Even giving him the exact same contract makes me cringe, but that’s as high as I would be willing to go. 30mil would’ve gotten it done before wentz got his contract. But I commend the front office for holding off, since we don’t know if he’s actually worth it yet. 

Dak needs to swallow his pride and realize wtf is going on around him. Zeke needs to get paid. Amari needs to get paid. He’s a better player when those guys are out there. If he doesn’t realize that, he isn’t as smart as I thought he was. 

Edited August 13, 2019 by youdunnf'dup

[Tired Horn 738]

2 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

4 hours ago, futureman said:

how many endorsements will dak get backing up josh allen in buffalo?

How much per hour will Mike White make stocking shelves at Home Depot? 12?

Depends on what state he settles in when he washes out of football.

But he'll damn sure be an unstoppable shelf stocking machine.

[Drew 2,408]

19 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Sure, but that doesn’t mean it would be smart to do it. We have to dig in on this one. Dak shouldn’t be getting paid more than Wentz if wentz’s number is 32mil a year. He just shouldn’t. Even giving him the exact same contract makes me cringe, but that’s as high as I would be willing to go. 30mil would’ve gotten it done before wentz got his contract. But I commend the front office for holding off, since we don’t know if he’s actually worth it yet. 

Dak needs to swallow his pride and realize wtf is going on around him. Zeke needs to get paid. Amari needs to get paid. He’s a better player when those guys are out there. If he doesn’t realize that, he isn’t as smart as I thought he was. 

I really don't think the money he gets matters all that much except to fans who don't understand how any of this works, and stupid media members making it out to be something it's not.

Just like Wentz' deal. It's not 32 mil a year, and that amount doesn't matter at all anyways.  It's the guarantees and how long until his cap hit is palatable.

People are jumping off a cliff at the idea of paying him the same as Wentz, when in reality that's not what it'll be.  It'll end up being average out to 27 Mil a year(less than the Franchise) and from all the numbers thrown out so far, it would really only be a 3 year extension or something like that.  Not some long term 5 year deal with tons of dead money.

 

And for the record, if Dak shouldn't be paid 32 mil a year, than Wentz should be getting that.  And Cousins and Jimmy G shouldn't be getting what they're getting either.

[totallynotabuttpirate 5,400]

Why does everyone automatically assume that Dak (& Cooper) would've signed earlier for less money? You don't think they have every incentive to wait as the market keeps going crazy? 

Signing Dak in February would've taken a market-setting deal. RW set the market, now Dak has to fit under it. 

[DougO 5,247]

1 hour ago, Trey3216 said:

He can land every weed eater on the hook from 30 ft away.  He deserves $12.50

Though he will drop several trying to get them out of the box.

[DougO 5,247]

16 minutes ago, Drew said:

And for the record, if Dak shouldn't be paid 32 mil a year, than Wentz should be getting that.  And Cousins and Jimmy G shouldn't be getting what they're getting either.

They really shouldn't, but that's the way NFL go.

[Drew 2,408]

Absolutely.

[SurlyBDR 22,783]

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

Drew, what are you actually arguing on this? I feel like you’re waffling really hard on this one. What is your actual take on this situation. What do you think you should do. I don’t mean to just rail on you like some people do in this thread, but you’re not really giving your opinion on the situation. If you’re Stephen Jones, what do YOU do?

[futureman 22,458]

31 minutes ago, youdunnf'dup said:

Drew, what are you actually arguing on this? I feel like you’re waffling really hard on this one. What is your actual take on this situation. What do you think you should do. I don’t mean to just rail on you like some people do in this thread, but you’re not really giving your opinion on the situation. If you’re Stephen Jones, what do YOU do?

you have two years of the tag to work with.  make dak prove it and if he does, then give him all that money and if he wants too much just tag him.  (spoiler: he won’t prove it)

[Loch Ness Monster 3,533]

If Dak is asking anymore than 33 a year I would dig in hard if I was Stephen.

 

[Surly Bevo 24,908]

20 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

If Dak is asking anymore than 33 a year I would dig in hard if I was Stephen.

 

I wouldn't even dig in I would just give their camp the old "ok we will take it under advisement" and cease all discussion for the rest of the season.

[SurlyBDR 22,783]

 

Edited August 14, 2019 by SurlyBDR

[SurlyBDR 22,783]

 

[kevwun 15,787]

One day the NFL is going to figure out that all of the bullshit that goes on with player contracts is because they aren't guaranteed.  This shit almost never happens in the MLB or the NBA.

[Bone3421 716]

One day the NFL is going to figure out that all of the bullshit that goes on with player contracts is because they aren't guaranteed.  This shit almost never happens in the MLB or the NBA.

Every dollar left in zekes contract is guaranteed...if he plays

[Vic Mackey 47,031]

 

[Junior Miller 1,502]

2 hours ago, kevwun said:

One day the NFL is going to figure out that all of the bullshit that goes on with player contracts is because they aren't guaranteed.  This shit almost never happens in the MLB or the NBA.

Also because MLB has no salary cap and NBA has a very very soft cap. Also, the NBA knows you need 2 to 3 superstar level players plus some low cost decent players to win a title so they don't mind paying superstar level players max deals. 

The NFL is completely different and I think does it right. Hard cap to keep teams from money whipping everyone, and you need quality on both offense and defense across 45 players to be able to challenge for titles. The QB is the most important but you can't win with just a great QB alone. You want to sign that QB, WR, and RB to massive deals? Ok, go ahead but now your margin in the draft is razor think and if you don't hit on multiple starter level players every draft you're going to field a weaker team. 

[kevwun 15,787]

You can keep that without also encouraging star players to hold out for new contracts because their deals aren't fully guaranteed.

Edited August 14, 2019 by kevwun

[Drew 2,408]

Drew, what are you actually arguing on this? I feel like you’re waffling really hard on this one. What is your actual take on this situation. What do you think you should do. I don’t mean to just rail on you like some people do in this thread, but you’re not really giving your opinion on the situation. If you’re Stephen Jones, what do YOU do?

As said above dig in at right about Wentz or a tick above. That’s it.

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

We don’t have to keep talking about this, but I would offer wentz’s exact same contract, cringe while doing it, and say this is the best we’re gonna do. Then deep down, I would hope he says no so he can play out his contract. Then reevaluate after the season. 

[futureman 22,458]

Just now, youdunnf'dup said:

We don’t have to keep talking about this, but I would offer wentz’s exact same contract, cringe while doing it, and say this is the best we’re gonna do. Then deep down, I would hope he says no so he can play out his contract. Then reevaluate after the season. 

if that’s how you feel why in god’s name would you even offer him the contract?  tell him to shut up and go play and get his 3 for 30 from some other stupid team after 2019.

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

Because I don’t think he’s going to accept that contract. But that’s a fair point, I guess.

[futureman 22,458]

best case scenario: dak doesn’t sign a contract and plays the season where we struggle to 7-9.  ginger fired.  sean payton hired and brings bridgewater with him.  amari and zeke get signed.  super bowl 2020.

[SurlyBDR 22,783]

20 minutes ago, futureman said:

best case scenario: dak doesn’t sign a contract and plays the season where we struggle to 7-9.  ginger fired.  sean payton hired and brings bridgewater with him.  amari and zeke get signed.  super bowl 2020.

[futureman 22,458]

our future qb1 weighs in on last week’s game. 

https://www.dallascowboys.com/news/white-i-m-better-than-what-i-put-on-the-field

Quote

OXNARD, Calif. – Mike White has three offensive coaches who have been in his exact position: a backup quarterback getting his first game snaps in nearly an entire calendar year.

After such a long wait, last Saturday’s preseason opener against San Francisco didn’t go as planned.

The key is how last year’s fifth-round draft pick responds.

“Kit (quarterbacks coach Jon Kitna) and (offensive coordinator) Kellen (Moore) and JG (head coach) Jason (Garrett) kind of hinted that to me, is it happens,” White said Monday. “You can’t skip steps in this league. Everyone goes through their learning curves and their experiences.

“So that’s what I’m treating this game as and just moving forward and knowing that I’m better than what I put on the field the last game.”

White took over for starter Dak Prescott and fellow backup Cooper Rush in the third quarter of Saturday’s 17-9 defeat. He played the final six drives, completing 9 of 20 passes for 87 yards for a 57.7 rating.

He was sacked on each of his first three series and fumbled twice, losing one that led to a 49ers field goal.

“Mike White probably had the roughest outing of the group,” Garrett said. “The ball was on the ground a couple of times, some decision making probably not as clean as it needed to be, some technique stuff. But again, a great learning experience for him, too. He hasn’t played a lot of football.

“That is what these games are all about, you come back and you look at it, why were you going there, what were you doing here, you process that, you learn from it and you put it behind you.”

 

Garrett was encouraged by White’s final series, when he drove the offense 89 yards to the 49ers’ 4-yard line and the brink of a potential game-tying situation down eight points. San Francisco forced four straight incomplete passes to seal the win, but overall White managed the clock well in a two-minute situation that the team has simulated here in Oxnard.

“There was some good and there was some bad, just like any game,” White said. “It might be more bad than good, but a lot of learning experience. And that’s part of being a young guy.”

It remains to be seen if the Cowboys keep both backups on the roster for a second straight season. Rush had the edge in the first game. White believes he’s got more to offer than the tape from Saturday showed.

“These next three games is what I’m going to use to prove it,” he said.

 

[EvilCaseMcCoy 691]

10 hours ago, futureman said:

our future qb1 weighs in on last week’s game. 

https://www.dallascowboys.com/news/white-i-m-better-than-what-i-put-on-the-field

 

Sounds like a bunch of excuses to me.  He's gotta do better.  

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

He’s just gotta be as good as rush so he can get reps with the 2nd team (and probably first team). Problem is...he’s not as good as rush

[tokamak 6,429]

The Ringer on Kellen Moore and the Cowboys' new offense: https://www.theringer.com/nfl-preview/2019/8/15/20806357/dallas-cowboys-new-offense-dak-prescott-ezekiel-elliott-kellen-moore

[gsoda3 3,260]

5 hours ago, EvilCaseMcCoy said:

Sounds like a bunch of excuses to me.  He's gotta do better.  

what part of it sounded like excuses?

[gsoda3 3,260]

28 minutes ago, tokamak said:

The Ringer on Kellen Moore and the Cowboys' new offense: https://www.theringer.com/nfl-preview/2019/8/15/20806357/dallas-cowboys-new-offense-dak-prescott-ezekiel-elliott-kellen-moore

Quote

Last year, Prescott’s 67.7 completion percentage was 2.1 percentage points higher than his expected completion percentage (xCOMP), which is calculated based on receiver separation. A completion percentage higher than a player’s xCOMP typically means a quarterback performed better than his scheme would suggest.

interesting.  

[futureman 22,458]

38 minutes ago, gsoda3 said:

interesting.  

there’s nothing interesting about checkdowns

[Vic Mackey 47,031]

[Magus Ossis 2,799]

2 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

interesting.  

Quote

Last year, Prescott’s 67.7 completion percentage was 2.1 percentage points higher than his expected completion percentage (xCOMP), which is calculated based on receiver separation. A completion percentage higher than a player’s xCOMP typically means a quarterback performed better than his scheme would suggest.

Wow. Moneyballing football to the point of distinguishing QB from team. I shouldn't be surprised, but I hadn't thought of it.

[Junior Miller 1,502]

2 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

interesting.  

The problem with that is they calculate receiver separation by how close a DB is to a receiver when he catches the ball. In this offense basically every throw Dak makes, even the simplest of throws, count as low separation because they're all low to medium range and almost all different variations of stop routes. The DBs are almost always going to be within a step on those. 

It's why you just can't really evaluate Dak accurately until he plays in an offense that he has to be the guy to make the plays, and an offense that is predicated on more timing routes and movement instead of so many easy stop routes. If you look at his 2018 I believe he only surpassed 300 yards 3 times all season and had several games under 200 yds passing. That's pathetic for a time when every advantage possible in the rules is set up for massive passing yards. If he's going to be a 30+ million QB he's going to have to do it with a weaker line and less weapons once free agency and cap tears this team apart, and he hasn't shown an ability to do it. 

The 3rd quarters last season were absolutely pathetic. There's no valid excuse for paying so much money to an offense that puts up such few passing yards and is bottom half of the league in points scored (and almost close to last in points through 3 quarters). Once the defense is depleted by age and free agency he won't have the luxury of being mediocre to bad for 3 quarters then turning it on late to pull out a one possession win. 

[C-Man 27,224]

13 minutes ago, Junior Miller said:

The problem with that is they calculate receiver separation by how close a DB is to a receiver when he catches the ball. In this offense basically every throw Dak makes, even the simplest of throws, count as low separation because they're all low to medium range and almost all different variations of stop routes. The DBs are almost always going to be within a step on those. 

It's why you just can't really evaluate Dak accurately until he plays in an offense that he has to be the guy to make the plays, and an offense that is predicated on more timing routes and movement instead of so many easy stop routes. If you look at his 2018 I believe he only surpassed 300 yards 3 times all season and had several games under 200 yds passing. That's pathetic for a time when every advantage possible in the rules is set up for massive passing yards. If he's going to be a 30+ million QB he's going to have to do it with a weaker line and less weapons once free agency and cap tears this team apart, and he hasn't shown an ability to do it. 

The 3rd quarters last season were absolutely pathetic. There's no valid excuse for paying so much money to an offense that puts up such few passing yards and is bottom half of the league in points scored (and almost close to last in points through 3 quarters). Once the defense is depleted by age and free agency he won't have the luxury of being mediocre to bad for 3 quarters then turning it on late to pull out a one possession win. 

I remember 3rd quarters being pretty bad but I can't find the Cowboys' scoring per quarter very easily. Strangely enough, the third was Dak's best quarter statistically though he threw fewer passes and had fewer runs than in any other quarter. I'm trying to remember how things went -- was it the defense not being able to get off the field as well in the third or did we go more conservative and call more running plays in the third?

Split	Value	Cmp	Att	Inc	Cmp%	Yds	TD	1D	Int	Rate	Sk	Yds	Y/A	AY/A	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD	1D
Quarter	1st Qtr	81	121	40	66.94	932	3	43	2	91.3	7		7.7	7.45	13	67	5.2	2	5
	2nd Qtr	93	140	47	66.43	990	7	53	2	97.6	17		7.1	7.43	23	77	3.3	1	6
	3rd Qtr	76	104	28	73.08	731	6	35	2	103.5	17		7.0	7.32	6	41	6.8	0	2
	4th Qtr	96	151	55	63.58	1131	5	51	2	91.8	15		7.5	7.56	33	114	3.5	3	12

Zeke's usage seemed pretty consistent with the rest of his games, at least from a carries standpoint.

Split	Value	Att	Yds	Y/A	TD	1D	Tgt	Rec	Yds	Y/R	TD	1D	Ctch%	Y/Tgt
Quarter	1st Qtr	82	315	3.8	1	18	22	19	177	9.3	1	7		8.0
	2nd Qtr	68	365	5.4	0	16	23	20	156	7.8	1	6		6.8
	3rd Qtr	72	379	5.3	0	17	20	16	79	4.9	0	5		4.0
	4th Qtr	72	351	4.9	5	22	28	20	135	6.8	1	4		4.8
	OT	10	24	2.4	0	3	2	2	20	10.0	0	0		10.0
	1st Half	150	680	4.5	1	34	45	39	333	8.5	2	13		7.4
	2nd Half	144	730	5.1	5	39	48	36	214	5.9	1	9		4.5

[Drew 2,408]

3 hours ago, gsoda3 said:

interesting.  

Yup.

As for 3rd quarters, Bob Sturm broke it down very well along with that Sharp football guy on Twitter.  The Cowboys usually go into the half with leads.  Then the 3rd quarter they play an even safer brand of football with runs and short passes by design.  It's not until the fort quarter, when the other team as come back, that they turn it on again, usually with Dak basically making plays with his feet or outside the pocket to get them wins.  That's why their record in 1 score games is so unusual, and not sustainable

[futureman 22,458]

45 minutes ago, Junior Miller said:

It's why you just can't really evaluate Dak accurately until he plays in an offense that he has to be the guy to make the plays

the only way to properly judge qbs is the eyeball test.  and dak looks like a fucking dipshit back there. 

[Loch Ness Monster 3,533]

Mike White was one of the worst QB I've seen so far in preseason but we'll see what Game #2 looks like.

Dak is probably around the 15th or 16th best starting QB, maybe slightly higher if leadership matters. People calling him god awful are smoking crack. Maybe they missed the Drew Henson, Quincy Carter and Chad Hutchinson days.

[youdunnf'dup 2,147]

1 hour ago, Vic Mackey said:

That sounds a lot like Jerry Jones and company saying tony Pollard looks like the best rookie and he can carry the load. 

[futureman 22,458]

11 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Mike White was one of the worst QB I've seen so far in preseason but we'll see what Game #2 looks like.

Dak is probably around the 15th or 16th best starting QB, maybe slightly higher if leadership matters. People calling him god awful are smoking crack. Maybe they missed the Drew Henson, Quincy Carter and Chad Hutchinson days.

chutch could go 12-4 with this roster. 

[futureman 22,458]

dak is god awful

[gsoda3 3,260]

17 hours ago, Junior Miller said:

The problem with that is they calculate receiver separation by how close a DB is to a receiver when he catches the ball. In this offense basically every throw Dak makes, even the simplest of throws, count as low separation because they're all low to medium range and almost all different variations of stop routes. The DBs are almost always going to be within a step on those. 

It's why you just can't really evaluate Dak accurately until he plays in an offense that he has to be the guy to make the plays, and an offense that is predicated on more timing routes and movement instead of so many easy stop routes. If you look at his 2018 I believe he only surpassed 300 yards 3 times all season and had several games under 200 yds passing. That's pathetic for a time when every advantage possible in the rules is set up for massive passing yards. If he's going to be a 30+ million QB he's going to have to do it with a weaker line and less weapons once free agency and cap tears this team apart, and he hasn't shown an ability to do it. 

The 3rd quarters last season were absolutely pathetic. There's no valid excuse for paying so much money to an offense that puts up such few passing yards and is bottom half of the league in points scored (and almost close to last in points through 3 quarters). Once the defense is depleted by age and free agency he won't have the luxury of being mediocre to bad for 3 quarters then turning it on late to pull out a one possession win. 

i wish they could granularize the analysis into ratings for each qb based on types of throws.  the thing with a movement offense is you're going to have a lot of passes where the receiver is wide open, but you'll also have those timing routes where the receiver's blanketed and the success of the play is dependent on accuracy of throw and execution of route. 

 

i was surprised by the initial quote i posted because from my purely subjective impression of watching dak vs other qbs over the course of the past few seasons i have him ranked in the lower quartile of qbs in terms of accuracy.

[Vic Mackey 47,031]

Tyron Smith not going to play because "his back is starting to act up a little"

Right on schedule.

[Ghost of Shag 2,608]

17 hours ago, futureman said:

chutch could go 12-4 with this roster. 

Lulz.  Mike White couldn't.  

[futureman 22,458]

56 minutes ago, Ghost of Shag said:

Lulz.  Mike White couldn't.  

no, this is wrong.  with the zeke running game, amari cooper, and the witten safety-valve, mike white could get to 13 or 14 regular season wins this year pretty easily. but thanks for you cute attempt in trying to evaluate football.  

[Ghost of Shag 2,608]

1 minute ago, futureman said:

no, this is wrong.  with the zeke running game, amari cooper, and the witten safety-valve, mike white could get to 13 or 14 regular season wins this year pretty easily. but thanks for you cute attempt in trying to evaluate football.  

Your schtick is old.  

 

[EvilCaseMcCoy 691]

1 minute ago, futureman said:

no, this is wrong.  with the zeke running game, amari cooper, and the witten safety-valve, mike white could get to 13 or 14 regular season wins this year pretty easily. but thanks for you cute attempt in trying to evaluate football.  

I really hope you're right dude.  I've got all my cards in the MW panning out bucket.