QBs and the SEC: Oil and Water

[sushihorn 3233]

For obvious demographic reasons, the SEC region produces the largest pool of talent at most positions.  The ESPN hype helps the SEC mostly keep them at home.  But a glaring exception to this is the QB position.  Start with the fact that less than 10% of the QBs in the NFL come from the SEC.  That is a shockingly low number and less than half what they send to the league at other positions.  To me the explanation is simple but the supporting factors are complex.  My take is they don’t get great raw material, the coaching and development are far from top notch and the QBs are not challenged by SEC defenses.  This is obscured by the overall talent surrounding the QBs and offenses that don’t make heavy demands on QBs.

It starts with the fact that the best teams in the SEC do not run complex passing attacks.  Few of them run passing spread at all and none do it well.  HS football tends to emulate the top college programs in their area so this filters down to the HS level.  In contrast, spread has become the dominant offense in the Big XII and is widely used by many excellent HS programs in the State of Texas.  Southlake Carroll started 20 years ago, with others following quickly; Westlake and Lake Travis are some of the prime examples today.  Bottom line: Texas produces well coached HS QBs ready to direct and lead complex passing offenses.  Look at the freshman campaigns of Bradford, Colt, Mayfield and Mahomes among others. 

The core SEC region (pre-expansion) doesn’t do much of that.  The fact that 2 of the 3 leading passers in the SEC are from Hawaii and most of the QBs in the league are from outside the core area is a tacit admission that there’s not that much home-grown talent at this key position.  In addition to the two Hawaiians, both Alabama schools brought in players from Texas and others hail from MI, NJ, OH and OK.  To top things off the best home-grown HS talent of the last decade+ chose to play in the ACC.  To further reinforce the point, Bama recruited top 5 pro-style QBs 3 consecutive years this decade.  They had #4 twice (David Cornwell from OK, Cooper Bateman from UT) and #2 (Blake Barnett from CA).  This was followed by the #4 dual threat (Hurts) who came from Texas and Tua from Hawaii.  This is clearly a pattern.  The bottom line is that in total opposition to the talent picture at most positions, the SEC is a talent-POOR region for HS quarterbacks.

The QB situation is a longstanding issue for the SEC.  Their best passing QBs of the last 20 years are a Texan (Stafford from Highland Park) and 2 sons of an NFL pro bowler who got plenty of coaching at home (Mannings).  Cam Newton is arguably the only elite SEC QB produced by HS programs in the region for many years.  The next best SEC QB of the last 10 years to originate in the Southeast is probably AJ McCarron, which pretty much says it all.  McCarron was massively hyped, finally drafted in the 5^th round and looks like a career backup – which truly exemplifies QB play in the SEC.

QB development is not a strength for SEC programs to put it mildly.  Of those 4 top QB recruits to Bama I listed earlier, only Hurts and Tua made much impact.  And no one would call either one a polished passer against disguised modern defenses.  Tua and Fromm looked polished until they faced superior pass defenses – which they never do in the SEC.  Plenty of guys put up big numbers in that league without being great passers: see aforementioned AJ McCarron.  Remember that Jevan Snead was one of the best passers in the SEC the moment he stepped on campus in Oxford.  The SEC QBs in the NFL further illustrate the point.  Two (Eli and Stafford) played college ball before the radical changes on offense became widespread.  Stafford was trained in the Texas HS system at Highland Park, Eli at his father’s knee.  Neither required much training at the college level; they were good from day 1.  Dak has the characteristic weaknesses of an SEC QB: poor ability to read coverages and blitzes.  Cam Newton is really the only counter-example.

For a long time, the offensive strategy for the better SEC teams has been to bludgeon opponents with a gigantic O Line and big, powerful RBs.  They would mix in deep shots just to keep you honest.  That’s why you heard Bama, Georgia and LSU QBs described as bus drivers or game managers for years.  This has begun to change recently but mostly at the margin.  Passing has increased but mostly in the form of run game extensions like WR screens and low risk short passes like quick hitches against off coverage.  With great athletes at WR this can result in huge YAC plays but does little to prepare passers to throw against 8 man drops and disguised coverages generally.  If you watch the video of the decision making process that Mike Leach instills in his QBs, the difference is like night and day for development.  SEC QBs generally read one defender, either pre-snap for short passing or the CB when throwing the deep ball at single coverage.  That style requires a strong and accurate arm but not too much thinking.

For reference, the entire SEC, which historically spans 9 states has 4 starting QBs in the NFL: Eli, Stafford, Dak and Cam.  High schools in the State of Texas alone have produced double digits.  Austin area HS programs have 3: Drew Brees, Nick Foles and Mayfield.  Don’t expect anything to change until the leading powers in the SEC radically overhaul and modernize their passing games.

[WBT 20443]

Nice post.  Allow me to play devil's advocate with this gif of excellent qb play by Chad Kelly:

[Cajun 11675]

^^Needs Benny Hill theme

[futureman 22424]

1 hour ago, sushihorn said:

For obvious demographic reasons, the SEC region produces the largest pool of talent at most positions.  The ESPN hype helps the SEC mostly keep them at home.  But a glaring exception to this is the QB position.  Start with the fact that less than 10% of the QBs in the NFL come from the SEC.  That is a shockingly low number and less than half what they send to the league at other positions.  To me the explanation is simple but the supporting factors are complex.  My take is they don’t get great raw material, the coaching and development are far from top notch and the QBs are not challenged by SEC defenses.  This is obscured by the overall talent surrounding the QBs and offenses that don’t make heavy demands on QBs.

 

It starts with the fact that the best teams in the SEC do not run complex passing attacks.  Few of them run passing spread at all and none do it well.  HS football tends to emulate the top college programs in their area so this filters down to the HS level.  In contrast, spread has become the dominant offense in the Big XII and is widely used by many excellent HS programs in the State of Texas.  Southlake Carroll started 20 years ago, with others following quickly; Westlake and Lake Travis are some of the prime examples today.  Bottom line: Texas produces well coached HS QBs ready to direct and lead complex passing offenses.  Look at the freshman campaigns of Bradford, Colt, Mayfield and Mahomes among others. 

 

The core SEC region (pre-expansion) doesn’t do much of that.  The fact that 2 of the 3 leading passers in the SEC are from Hawaii and most of the QBs in the league are from outside the core area is a tacit admission that there’s not that much home-grown talent at this key position.  In addition to the two Hawaiians, both Alabama schools brought in players from Texas and others hail from MI, NJ, OH and OK.  To top things off the best home-grown HS talent of the last decade+ chose to play in the ACC.  To further reinforce the point, Bama recruited top 5 pro-style QBs 3 consecutive years this decade.  They had #4 twice (David Cornwell from OK, Cooper Bateman from UT) and #2 (Blake Barnett from CA).  This was followed by the #4 dual threat (Hurts) who came from Texas and Tua from Hawaii.  This is clearly a pattern.  The bottom line is that in total opposition to the talent picture at most positions, the SEC is a talent-POOR region for HS quarterbacks.

 

The QB situation is a longstanding issue for the SEC.  Their best passing QBs of the last 20 years are a Texan (Stafford from Highland Park) and 2 sons of an NFL pro bowler who got plenty of coaching at home (Mannings).  Cam Newton is arguably the only elite SEC QB produced by HS programs in the region for many years.  The next best SEC QB of the last 10 years to originate in the Southeast is probably AJ McCarron, which pretty much says it all.  McCarron was massively hyped, finally drafted in the 5^th round and looks like a career backup – which truly exemplifies QB play in the SEC.

 

QB development is not a strength for SEC programs to put it mildly.  Of those 4 top QB recruits to Bama I listed earlier, only Hurts and Tua made much impact.  And no one would call either one a polished passer against disguised modern defenses.  Tua and Fromm looked polished until they faced superior pass defenses – which they never do in the SEC.  Plenty of guys put up big numbers in that league without being great passers: see aforementioned AJ McCarron.  Remember that Jevan Snead was one of the best passers in the SEC the moment he stepped on campus in Oxford.  The SEC QBs in the NFL further illustrate the point.  Two (Eli and Stafford) played college ball before the radical changes on offense became widespread.  Stafford was trained in the Texas HS system at Highland Park, Eli at his father’s knee.  Neither required much training at the college level; they were good from day 1.  Dak has the characteristic weaknesses of an SEC QB: poor ability to read coverages and blitzes.  Cam Newton is really the only counter-example.

 

For a long time, the offensive strategy for the better SEC teams has been to bludgeon opponents with a gigantic O Line and big, powerful RBs.  They would mix in deep shots just to keep you honest.  That’s why you heard Bama, Georgia and LSU QBs described as bus drivers or game managers for years.  This has begun to change recently but mostly at the margin.  Passing has increased but mostly in the form of run game extensions like WR screens and low risk short passes like quick hitches against off coverage.  With great athletes at WR this can result in huge YAC plays but does little to prepare passers to throw against 8 man drops and disguised coverages generally.  If you watch the video of the decision making process that Mike Leach instills in his QBs, the difference is like night and day for development.  SEC QBs generally read one defender, either pre-snap for short passing or the CB when throwing the deep ball at single coverage.  That style requires a strong and accurate arm but not too much thinking.

 

For reference, the entire SEC, which historically spans 9 states has 4 starting QBs in the NFL: Eli, Stafford, Dak and Cam.  High schools in the State of Texas alone have produced double digits.  Austin area HS programs have 3: Drew Brees, Nick Foles and Mayfield.  Don’t expect anything to change until the leading powers in the SEC radically overhaul and modernize their passing games.

 

tldr.  cliffs?

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

17 minutes ago, futureman said:

tldr.  cliffs?

The sec region  produced low  talent level  at QB so they do the smart thing and recruit  out of state.  

[Homesickhorn 2202]

Nice post.  Allow me to play devil's advocate with this gif of excellent qb play by Chad Kelly:

I was dove hunting in south Texas when that happened. It happened right after Nick Rose shanked the extra point against Cal. I’d wrangled the Longhorn fans to come back inside because they’d given up on the Texas game, only for them to watch that kick.

[Smax 3800]

Makes our lack of a good qb over the past 8 years tougher to swallow..

[sushihorn 3233]

40 minutes ago, futureman said:

tldr.  cliffs?

Thesis summary was at the end of the opening paragraph:

Quote

My take is they don’t get great raw material, the coaching and development are far from top notch and the QBs are not challenged by SEC defenses.  This is obscured by the overall talent surrounding the QBs and offenses that don’t make heavy demands on QBs.

 

[Zavala 1384]

ya run a low risk low reward offense when this is your coach

I can't wait for the Gators to get back to a really fun offense once they get a competent QB. The Gators had a great offense with Danny Wuerffel, Jesse Palmer, Rex Grossman, Chris Leak, then Timmy Tebow. I think this guy knows what the fuck he is doing with a college power-spread offense too. He just needs to get his guys and they will be great, not just $EC great, but great.

[TXSG8R 3360]

Florida signed Jeff Driskel and Jacoby Brissett in the same year, both Florida products who had the pleasure of playing under Muschamp. Great raw material that was stunted by a defensive goon who wanted to control clock. He wound up driving the better product (Brissett) away and made Driskel into a fucking basket case. The development isn’t limited by the assistants, plenty move to and from the SEC with mixed results. The development is limited by trying to beat Bama

The problem is the elephant that is spreading its seed across the SEC. Schools keep hiring from the Saban tree and they just come in trying to duplicate a blueprint that is predicated on having a clear talent advantage over your opponent. As much as it’s nice to believe that you can just come in with a spread QB and beat Bama, the reality is you need at least comparable talent. That’s why Clemson is the only team that’s doing it consistently. 

SEC teams not named Bama aren’t worried about beating teams outside the SEC, because until you can overcome Bama, the shit really doesn’t matter. The conference is just tilted that way because those fuckers have tipped the scales so far. Kirby and Georgia made a valiant attempt, but it will be interesting if they can maintain it with the talent they are losing. That’s where Bama breaks most teams. Keeping 5 star talent on the bench waiting their turn is fucking impossible for any serious length of time outside of Bama and Clemson. 

[Kyrie Eleison 9312]

bias is leaking.

in the history of the Big 12, only one B12 quarterback has won an NFL playoff game....

Mahomes. this year.

contrast with Peyton, Eli, Cam Newton since the B12 has been in business.

but whatever...you be you.

[Doc Sam Beckett 5785]

I don't think you can say the region is poor for high school QBs. I bet there are a lot more than you are counting when you look beyond the secsecsec conference...

[Treefidy 1463]

14 minutes ago, Kyrie Eleison said:

bias is leaking.

in the history of the Big 12, only one B12 quarterback has won an NFL playoff game....

Mahomes. this year.

contrast with Peyton, Eli, Cam Newton since the B12 has been in business.

but whatever...you be you.

Dude, his post is not about the B12.  It's about the SEC and how they place 583,980,864 players into the league except at QB, and why.

Its still a mostly regional sport, and the SEC recruits their heavily laden area with a heavy fist, but they get shitty QBs or they go recruit better ones from out of footprint.  

I know y'all are a charter member and all, but seriously fuck SEC and the false greatness narrative.   Bama is really fucking good and recruits better than anyone for a decade now.   LSU is probably the 2nd best team in the league and you were 10-3, not exactly immortal.  

See you in September.  

[runthebone 7933]

You, sir, no Paul Finebaum or Verne Lundquist.  

 

And I mean that as a compliment.

[TheFlagship 432]

48 minutes ago, Kyrie Eleison said:

bias is leaking.

in the history of the Big 12, only one B12 quarterback has won an NFL playoff game....

Mahomes. this year.

contrast with Peyton, Eli, Cam Newton since the B12 has been in business.

but whatever...you be you.

This is indicative of NFL bias, not actual talent. 

[TonyTexas 10485]

[Homesickhorn 2202]

This is pretty badass.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

1 hour ago, Kyrie Eleison said:

bias is leaking.

in the history of the Big 12, only one B12 quarterback has won an NFL playoff game....

Mahomes. this year.

contrast with Peyton, Eli, Cam Newton since the B12 has been in business.

but whatever...you be you.

Bythat measurement Wouldn't Michigan be the clear winner?   .

[Dennis Taylor 18725]

1 hour ago, Kyrie Eleison said:

bias is leaking.

in the history of the Big 12, only one B12 quarterback has won an NFL playoff game....

Mahomes. this year.

contrast with Peyton, Eli, Cam Newton since the B12 has been in business.

but whatever...you be you.

Peyton with the Colts is the only one of those super bowl teams that didn't sport a dominant defense and running game. And Addai and Rhodes were a pretty good duo on the Colts team 

[52-80 19110]

Does half of that argument really matter when he NFL drafted Matt Cassel, who attempted all of 33 passes in his college career?

 

They just want some tall motherfucker with a big arm

[sushihorn 3233]

1 hour ago, Kyrie Eleison said:

bias is leaking.

in the history of the Big 12, only one B12 quarterback has won an NFL playoff game....

Mahomes. this year.

contrast with Peyton, Eli, Cam Newton since the B12 has been in business.

but whatever...you be you.

Sure, let's talk about your bias.  In response to a post about QB talent, you dig up a team performance factoid that even the guy who popularized it finds absurd to refute a thesis about individual players.  You trot out guys who last played in the SEC 20, 15 and 10 years ago while failing to acknowledge that the game has changed radically over the last 10-15 years.  So let's take a look at the NFL draft since 2010 shall we?  BTW I chose that date to make sure to capture the last SEC quarterback drafted in the first round.

The SEC has 1 first rnd QB (Newton in 2011).  The Big XII has 2 of them  in just the last 2 years (Mayfield, Mahomes) and 4 overall (RG3 and Weedon in 2012).  Manziel was recruited to the B12 and coached by B12 Air Raid bro Kliff Kingsbury but played in the SEC.  Call him a wash to be generous to the SEC and he flamed out in the NFL anyway.

Since Cam Newton, no SEC QB has been drafted higher than the 4th round.  In addition to the 4 Big XII QBs already mentioned, OSU's Mason Rudolph (2018 3rd rnd) and WVU's Geno Smith (2013 2nd rnd) were drafted higher than that.  So when looking at QB talent to the NFL this decade it's no contest at all.  The passing numbers coming out of the Big XII should have been a clue that something was going on but most fans just ignored it until they realized it was really important in the last year or two.  With the newfound respect for the Big XII I expect higher draft position for QBs coming out of the league in the future.

[texaslong 678]

1 hour ago, Kyrie Eleison said:

bias is leaking.

in the history of the Big 12, only one B12 quarterback has won an NFL playoff game....

Mahomes. this year.

contrast with Peyton, Eli, Cam Newton since the B12 has been in business.

but whatever...you be you.

Times are changing along with the NFL. They know where the future is going. After watching Fromm (who most believed to be the 2nd best qb in the SEC) get confused by a Big 12 defense, I knew the SEC sucked.

[TonyTexas 10485]

Hard to believe but no QB from either the Big 12 or SWC has started a Super Bowl

 

[sushihorn 3233]

1 hour ago, TXSG8R said:

Florida signed Jeff Driskel and Jacoby Brissett in the same year, both Florida products who had the pleasure of playing under Muschamp. Great raw material that was stunted by a defensive goon who wanted to control clock. He wound up driving the better product (Brissett) away and made Driskel into a fucking basket case. The development isn’t limited by the assistants, plenty move to and from the SEC with mixed results. The development is limited by trying to beat Bama

The problem is the elephant that is spreading its seed across the SEC. Schools keep hiring from the Saban tree and they just come in trying to duplicate a blueprint that is predicated on having a clear talent advantage over your opponent. As much as it’s nice to believe that you can just come in with a spread QB and beat Bama, the reality is you need at least comparable talent. That’s why Clemson is the only team that’s doing it consistently. 

SEC teams not named Bama aren’t worried about beating teams outside the SEC, because until you can overcome Bama, the shit really doesn’t matter. The conference is just tilted that way because those fuckers have tipped the scales so far. Kirby and Georgia made a valiant attempt, but it will be interesting if they can maintain it with the talent they are losing. That’s where Bama breaks most teams. Keeping 5 star talent on the bench waiting their turn is fucking impossible for any serious length of time outside of Bama and Clemson. 

Sadly I think you're right about the thinking of other coaches in the SEC and it's a huge mistake.  Why try to make a 2nd rate copy of what Bama is doing.  You've agreed to play by their rules but with less talent.  Ergo, you WILL lose.  The way to deal with market dominance is by shifting the paradigm.  In business it usually happens with radical changes in technology or organization.  New challengers arise that either neutralize or bypass the advantages of the dominant incumbent.  That really is what the spread has attempted to do.  Neutralize the superior DL by throwing the ball quickly.  Bypass the advantage of a superior opposing OL by being efficient scoring yourself.

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

8 minutes ago, TonyTexas said:

Hard to believe but no QB from either the Big 12 or SWC has started a Super Bowl

 

Well, the Big XII has mostly existed during Tom Brady's stranglehold on the honor, and as for the SWC, I remember Bill Walsh running the Wishbone during a replacements game during a strike, but otherwise, it's not exactly the NFL's bag.

[TXSG8R 3360]

16 minutes ago, sushihorn said:

Sadly I think you're right about the thinking of other coaches in the SEC and it's a huge mistake.  Why try to make a 2nd rate copy of what Bama is doing.  You've agreed to play by their rules but with less talent.  Ergo, you WILL lose.  The way to deal with market dominance is by shifting the paradigm.  In business it usually happens with radical changes in technology or organization.  New challengers arise that either neutralize or bypass the advantages of the dominant incumbent.  That really is what the spread has attempted to do.  Neutralize the superior DL by throwing the ball quickly.  Bypass the advantage of a superior opposing OL by being efficient scoring yourself.

Yea, but there are plenty of people still living in the 00s when SEC schools were wearing out spread teams with really fast defenses. I think college football has caught up, or in some cases, exceeded the DL play with the SEC now, but people are creatures of habit. 

I think QB play is the bigger differentiator, spread, pro, whatever. And that’s been a big program problem across the board. Outside of Oklahoma, most bell cow programs have struggled to field one good QB, let alone multiple in a row. That is one advantage to the stuff the SEC runs, it can win in spite of QB play in a lot of cases. 

[bullet 1596]

56 minutes ago, dingleberryswitzer said:

Bythat measurement Wouldn't Michigan be the clear winner?   .

Michigan and Southern Miss and Louisiana Tech.

Edited January 15, 2019 by bullet
forgot Terry

[bullet 1596]

5 hours ago, sushihorn said:

For obvious demographic reasons, the SEC region produces the largest pool of talent at most positions.  The ESPN hype helps the SEC mostly keep them at home.  But a glaring exception to this is the QB position.  Start with the fact that less than 10% of the QBs in the NFL come from the SEC.  That is a shockingly low number and less than half what they send to the league at other positions.  To me the explanation is simple but the supporting factors are complex.  My take is they don’t get great raw material, the coaching and development are far from top notch and the QBs are not challenged by SEC defenses.  This is obscured by the overall talent surrounding the QBs and offenses that don’t make heavy demands on QBs.

 

It starts with the fact that the best teams in the SEC do not run complex passing attacks.  Few of them run passing spread at all and none do it well.  HS football tends to emulate the top college programs in their area so this filters down to the HS level.  In contrast, spread has become the dominant offense in the Big XII and is widely used by many excellent HS programs in the State of Texas.  Southlake Carroll started 20 years ago, with others following quickly; Westlake and Lake Travis are some of the prime examples today.  Bottom line: Texas produces well coached HS QBs ready to direct and lead complex passing offenses.  Look at the freshman campaigns of Bradford, Colt, Mayfield and Mahomes among others. 

 

The core SEC region (pre-expansion) doesn’t do much of that.  The fact that 2 of the 3 leading passers in the SEC are from Hawaii and most of the QBs in the league are from outside the core area is a tacit admission that there’s not that much home-grown talent at this key position.  In addition to the two Hawaiians, both Alabama schools brought in players from Texas and others hail from MI, NJ, OH and OK.  To top things off the best home-grown HS talent of the last decade+ chose to play in the ACC.  To further reinforce the point, Bama recruited top 5 pro-style QBs 3 consecutive years this decade.  They had #4 twice (David Cornwell from OK, Cooper Bateman from UT) and #2 (Blake Barnett from CA).  This was followed by the #4 dual threat (Hurts) who came from Texas and Tua from Hawaii.  This is clearly a pattern.  The bottom line is that in total opposition to the talent picture at most positions, the SEC is a talent-POOR region for HS quarterbacks.

 

The QB situation is a longstanding issue for the SEC.  Their best passing QBs of the last 20 years are a Texan (Stafford from Highland Park) and 2 sons of an NFL pro bowler who got plenty of coaching at home (Mannings).  Cam Newton is arguably the only elite SEC QB produced by HS programs in the region for many years.  The next best SEC QB of the last 10 years to originate in the Southeast is probably AJ McCarron, which pretty much says it all.  McCarron was massively hyped, finally drafted in the 5^th round and looks like a career backup – which truly exemplifies QB play in the SEC.

 

QB development is not a strength for SEC programs to put it mildly.  Of those 4 top QB recruits to Bama I listed earlier, only Hurts and Tua made much impact.  And no one would call either one a polished passer against disguised modern defenses.  Tua and Fromm looked polished until they faced superior pass defenses – which they never do in the SEC.  Plenty of guys put up big numbers in that league without being great passers: see aforementioned AJ McCarron.  Remember that Jevan Snead was one of the best passers in the SEC the moment he stepped on campus in Oxford.  The SEC QBs in the NFL further illustrate the point.  Two (Eli and Stafford) played college ball before the radical changes on offense became widespread.  Stafford was trained in the Texas HS system at Highland Park, Eli at his father’s knee.  Neither required much training at the college level; they were good from day 1.  Dak has the characteristic weaknesses of an SEC QB: poor ability to read coverages and blitzes.  Cam Newton is really the only counter-example.

 

For a long time, the offensive strategy for the better SEC teams has been to bludgeon opponents with a gigantic O Line and big, powerful RBs.  They would mix in deep shots just to keep you honest.  That’s why you heard Bama, Georgia and LSU QBs described as bus drivers or game managers for years.  This has begun to change recently but mostly at the margin.  Passing has increased but mostly in the form of run game extensions like WR screens and low risk short passes like quick hitches against off coverage.  With great athletes at WR this can result in huge YAC plays but does little to prepare passers to throw against 8 man drops and disguised coverages generally.  If you watch the video of the decision making process that Mike Leach instills in his QBs, the difference is like night and day for development.  SEC QBs generally read one defender, either pre-snap for short passing or the CB when throwing the deep ball at single coverage.  That style requires a strong and accurate arm but not too much thinking.

 

For reference, the entire SEC, which historically spans 9 states has 4 starting QBs in the NFL: Eli, Stafford, Dak and Cam.  High schools in the State of Texas alone have produced double digits.  Austin area HS programs have 3: Drew Brees, Nick Foles and Mayfield.  Don’t expect anything to change until the leading powers in the SEC radically overhaul and modernize their passing games.

I

Interesting thoughts.  But the fact is that Manning is only #5 on the SEC passing lists.  He was #1 when he graduated.

#1 Aaron Murray-UGA from Florida

#2 Drew Lock-Mizzou from Missouri

#3 David Greene-UGA from Georgia

#4 Chris Leak Florida-from North Carolina

 

 

And there is a guy from Georgia helped Clemson win a trophy a week or so ago.

I don't know about the other states, but Georgia HS football does plenty of passing and has spread teams.

 

Edited January 15, 2019 by bullet

[sushihorn 3233]

38 minutes ago, bullet said:

Interesting thoughts.  But the fact is that Manning is only #5 on the SEC passing lists.  He was #1 when he graduated.

#1 Aaron Murray-UGA from Florida

#2 Drew Lock-Mizzou from Missouri

#3 David Greene-UGA from Georgia

#4 Chris Leak Florida-from North Carolina

 

 

And there is a guy from Georgia helped Clemson win a trophy a week or so ago.

I don't know about the other states, but Georgia HS football does plenty of passing and has spread teams.

 

Those names are much more a testament to the way football has changed than to their quality as QBs.  I think the 3 older guys never saw the field in the NFL, not sure they were even drafted.  Leak was not from an SEC state.  Lock has good buzz but he is from far outside the SEC core area and was coached by the OG Big XII Air Raid QB Josh Heupel for most of his career.  None of them really challenge the thesis.

[Atticus 3925]

SEC region has had some QBs come out of there lately (Watson, Winston, Jackson, etc.). They just didn't sign to SEC schools.

[Vic Mackey 46939]

4 hours ago, Zavala said:

I can't wait for the Gators to get back to a really fun offense once they get a competent QB. The Gators had a great offense with Danny Wuerffel, Jesse Palmer, Rex Grossman, Chris Leak, then Timmy Tebow. I think this guy knows what the fuck he is doing with a college power-spread offense too. He just needs to get his guys and they will be great, not just $EC great, but great.

 

I always liked the Gators growing up. The 1996 teams was one of my favorites. Talent all over the field. Wuerffel, Anthony, Ike Hilliard, Jacqueez Green, Fred Taylor.

Florida hasn't been the same since they lost to Bama in 2009 SEC title game.

[Hank Chinaski 6310]

2 hours ago, sushihorn said:

Sadly I think you're right about the thinking of other coaches in the SEC and it's a huge mistake.  Why try to make a 2nd rate copy of what Bama is doing.  You've agreed to play by their rules but with less talent.  Ergo, you WILL lose.  The way to deal with market dominance is by shifting the paradigm.  In business it usually happens with radical changes in technology or organization.  New challengers arise that either neutralize or bypass the advantages of the dominant incumbent.  That really is what the spread has attempted to do.  Neutralize the superior DL by throwing the ball quickly.  Bypass the advantage of a superior opposing OL by being efficient scoring yourself.

Yup. This is what Leach did at Tech almost 20 years ago. He knew it was pointless to try to beat Stoops and Mack at their game, so he changed the game. He still didn't beat OU or Texas consistently, but he beat pretty much everyone else and still had his moments against the big 2. 

[TXSG8R 3360]

1 hour ago, sushihorn said:

Those names are much more a testament to the way football has changed than to their quality as QBs.  I think the 3 older guys never saw the field in the NFL, not sure they were even drafted.  Leak was not from an SEC state.  Lock has good buzz but he is from far outside the SEC core area and was coached by the OG Big XII Air Raid QB Josh Heupel for most of his career.  None of them really challenge the thesis.

Eh, I think you had an argument about QBs at SEC schools, but Florida alone has plenty of QBs in the league. Teddy Bridgewater, Blake Bortles, Jeff Driskel, Jacoby Brissett, Jameis Winston, Geno Smith, Matt Stafford, Lamar Jackson, and of course, Nathan Peterman. 

 

Edit: state of Georgia has another 7 or 8 in the league. I didn’t realize Bryce Petty was a Georgia kid. 

Edited January 15, 2019 by TXSG8R
Moar stats

[WBT 20443]

17 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Yup. This is what Leach did at Tech almost 20 years ago. He knew it was pointless to try to beat Stoops and Mack at their game, so he changed the game. He still didn't beat OU or Texas consistently, but he beat pretty much everyone else and still had his moments against the big 2. 

Stoops's game was Leach's game.  Big Game Bob doesn't win his national championship without Leach.

[Hank Chinaski 6310]

Just now, WBT said:

Stoops's game was Leach's game.  Big Game Bob doesn't win his national championship without Leach.

That's true. My point was that Leach knew he wasn't going to be able to beat OU or UT at Tech by being conventional. He was always going to be at a talent disadvantage to those two. 

[TXSG8R 3360]

21 minutes ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Yup. This is what Leach did at Tech almost 20 years ago. He knew it was pointless to try to beat Stoops and Mack at their game, so he changed the game. He still didn't beat OU or Texas consistently, but he beat pretty much everyone else and still had his moments against the big 2. 

You can make that same argument for Georgia Tech, or the academies.  Being different will win you some games just because it goes against ingrained tendencies for players playing agains it, but they haven’t won much hardware to put in the trophy case. 

[sushihorn 3233]

25 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

Eh, I think you had an argument about QBs at SEC schools, but Florida alone has plenty of QBs in the league. Teddy Bridgewater, Blake Bortles, Jeff Driskel, Jacoby Brissett, Jameis Winston, Geno Smith, Matt Stafford, Lamar Jackson, and of course, Nathan Peterman. 

 

Edit: state of Georgia has another 7 or 8 in the league. I didn’t realize Bryce Petty was a Georgia kid. 

Not sure how you count Stafford as a Florida player.  He played his HS ball in the D/FW area at Highland Park HS. 

I was only counting current NFL starters.  The numbers roughly triple when counting all backups.  During training camp, 11 of the 117 QBs on NFL rosters were from the SEC:

https://www.al.com/expo/sports/erry-2018/07/a6656a49547348/how-many-former-sec-quarterbac.html

Florida is only fractionally SEC country.  The ACC has a bigger profile in-state with both FSU and Miami.  The SEC also has to complete against UCF and USF now.

Edited January 15, 2019 by sushihorn

[sushihorn 3233]

3 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

You can make that same argument for Georgia Tech, or the academies.  Being different will win you some games just because it goes against ingrained tendencies for players playing agains it, but they haven’t won much hardware to put in the trophy case. 

The academies are under a severe handicap when competing in football.  Army finishing ranked is a huge accomplishment.  Wishbone and variants have 2 severe handicaps relative to the spread: 1) it's a very old offense with well-established schemes to defend it.  2) The offensive style handicaps the passing game to a large degree at a time when rules changes favor the passing game.

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

46 minutes ago, TXSG8R said:

Eh, I think you had an argument about QBs at SEC schools, but Florida alone has plenty of QBs in the league. Teddy Bridgewater, Blake Bortles, Jeff Driskel, Jacoby Brissett, Jameis Winston, Geno Smith, Matt Stafford, Lamar Jackson, and of course, Nathan Peterman. 

 

Edit: state of Georgia has another 7 or 8 in the league. I didn’t realize Bryce Petty was a Georgia kid. 

Matt Stafford is from Texas as are some other NFL QBs; Baker Mayfield, P. Mahomes,  A. Luck,  A. Dalton,  C. Keenum,  C. McCoy,  Chase Daniels,  J. McKown, R. Tannehill,  D. Carr,  RGIII,  N. Foles, D. Brees, etc. At least 11 on that list were starters at some point this season.

Stidham and Murray may get added to that list next season

Edited January 15, 2019 by ShaggyBevo RIP

[Vic Mackey 46939]

6 minutes ago, ShaggyBevo RIP said:

Matt Stafford is from Texas as are some other NFL QBs; Baker Mayfield, P. Mahomes,  A. Luck,  A. Dalton,  C. Keenum,  C. McCoy,  Chase Daniels,  J. McKown, R. Tannehill,  D. Carr,  RGIII,  N. Foles, D. Brees, etc. At least 11 on that list were starters at some point this season.

Stidham and Murray may get added to that list.

4 of the final 8 QBs left these playoffs were from Texas. 

[Zavala 1384]

1 hour ago, Vic Mackey said:

I always liked the Gators growing up. The 1996 teams was one of my favorites. Talent all over the field. Wuerffel, Anthony, Ike Hilliard, Jacqueez Green, Fred Taylor.

Florida hasn't been the same since they lost to Bama in 2009 SEC title game.

Yeah, great fanbase and game atmosphere too. I got a bunch of family in Gainsville, but still glad I graduated from Texas. It's a superior engineering school. Also, the only Texas school with near the same amount of talent as Florida. 

I got a 1996 natty polo that I wear to games. Although I was only 9 that year and its it's a hand me down lol

[markstanco 12528]

I can't wait for the Gators to get back to a really fun offense once they get a competent QB. The Gators had a great offense with Danny Wuerffel, Jesse Palmer, Rex Grossman, Chris Leak, then Timmy Tebow.

Did 25 year ago fun and gun steve come back? Because dan Mullin isnt him. At all.

[sushihorn 3233]

2 hours ago, Hank Chinaski said:

Yup. This is what Leach did at Tech almost 20 years ago. He knew it was pointless to try to beat Stoops and Mack at their game, so he changed the game. He still didn't beat OU or Texas consistently, but he beat pretty much everyone else and still had his moments against the big 2. 

There's a reason Leach is perfectly qualified to teach that course.  His innovative offense is a virtual case study in asymmetric warfare.

[TXSG8R 3360]

9 hours ago, sushihorn said:

Not sure how you count Stafford as a Florida player.  He played his HS ball in the D/FW area at Highland Park HS. 

I was only counting current NFL starters.  The numbers roughly triple when counting all backups.  During training camp, 11 of the 117 QBs on NFL rosters were from the SEC:

https://www.al.com/expo/sports/erry-2018/07/a6656a49547348/how-many-former-sec-quarterbac.html

Florida is only fractionally SEC country.  The ACC has a bigger profile in-state with both FSU and Miami.  The SEC also has to complete against UCF and USF now.

I just looked up a list, for some reason it showed Stafford being from Florida. Florida isn’t fractionally SEC country, it’s the beating heart of it when it comes to recruiting. Sure, the ACC has two schools in the state, but it’s where the bulk of the skill player talent comes from for the SEC, ACC, and B10. 

UGA and Bama own the panhandle as much as FSU does. Florida owns most of the central part of the state.  Miami owns the 305, but even that has diminished. We regularly pull kids out of broward and dade. By your argument the SEC should be getting fractional credit for Texas?

[TXSG8R 3360]

8 hours ago, markstanco said:

 

 

Did 25 year ago fun and gun steve come back? Because dan Mullin isnt him. At all.

 

He’s not, but he’s brought a functional offense back. People are waiting to see what he can do with an above average QB.  He does seem to get recruiting pretty well, which is something Steve never gave a shit about. 

[Zavala 1384]

9 hours ago, markstanco said:

Did 25 year ago fun and gun steve come back? Because dan Mullin isnt him. At all.

 

Depends on what kind of talent he gets at QB. Forget about Chris Leak?

 

[Kyrie Eleison 9312]

Not sure how you count Stafford as a Florida player.  He played his HS ball in the D/FW area at Highland Park HS. 
I was only counting current NFL starters.  The numbers roughly triple when counting all backups.  During training camp, 11 of the 117 QBs on NFL rosters were from the SEC:
https://www.al.com/expo/sports/erry-2018/07/a6656a49547348/how-many-former-sec-quarterbac.html
Florida is only fractionally SEC country.  The ACC has a bigger profile in-state with both FSU and Miami.  The SEC also has to complete against UCF and USF now.

[TXSG8R 3360]

44 minutes ago, Zavala said:

Depends on what kind of talent he gets at QB. Forget about Chris Leak?

 

Leak's performance is one of the reasons people are more optimistic about Mullen being at the helm.  He retooled Meyer's offense around a passing QB (and a fullback) and made it work.  It was what was missing after Tebow left and John Brantley took over.  Meyer and Addazio couldn't reshape the offense around a passing QB, and that's where the descent for the Florida program began. 

[sushihorn 3233]

2 hours ago, TXSG8R said:

I just looked up a list, for some reason it showed Stafford being from Florida. Florida isn’t fractionally SEC country, it’s the beating heart of it when it comes to recruiting. Sure, the ACC has two schools in the state, but it’s where the bulk of the skill player talent comes from for the SEC, ACC, and B10. 

UGA and Bama own the panhandle as much as FSU does. Florida owns most of the central part of the state.  Miami owns the 305, but even that has diminished. We regularly pull kids out of broward and dade. By your argument the SEC should be getting fractional credit for Texas?

Sure.  Maybe 5-10% now.  Obviously not historically.  I give the SEC full credit for GA despite the presence of GT and virtually nothing in SC due to Clemson's dominance there.

Edited January 15, 2019 by sushihorn

[sushihorn 3233]

36 minutes ago, Kyrie Eleison said:

 

 

Thanks for another irrational non-response.  The link provides DIRECT support for less than 10% of the QBs in the NFL being from the SEC. 

Use your words Phydeaux!

Edited January 15, 2019 by sushihorn