"Under 21"

[TahoeHorn 107]

How should society treat people in the 18-21 age group?  Or maybe it's 16-25.

We have a lot of discussions around making contracts, entering military service, voting, driving, buying alcohol, buying cigarettes, buying guns, and even renting a car and getting good insurance rates.  Society doesn't really have a coherent way to treat teens and young adults.  What's your answer?

One of the major societal problems is what I call 16 year old boy disease.  You know better but you do it anyway.  I had it.  Virtually every boy has it.  If you have it bad enough you ruin your life for good.  Most of us have had a number of life experiences which were caused by 16 year old boy disease for which we could have died or gone to prison.  But we were lucky.  Most of us are pretty much cured of 16 year old boy disease by 25.  At 21 we are partially cured.  Girls have much milder cases and get cured more quickly.  Most get cured by 21.

Anyone with a bad case of 16 year old boy disease shouldn't be engaging in potentially life ruining activity - activity which requires moderation and judgement to avoid bad consequences.  And they shouldn't be making decisions which impact the lives of others.

Should age be the sole basis for determining the rights of young adults?  And what age? I don't have a good answer.  But I am troubled that we are not consistent.  When I was a boy most everything except military service was 21.  But the Vietnam War seemed to be the impetus for a lot of change (If you're old enough to ...).  I'm inclined to think the old way may have made more sense.

[softlynow 1812]

You can rationalize it all you like, but you’re too old for her. 

[Incredulity 11650]

18

Old enough to fight in a war, old enough to vote, drink, drive, fuck,..........

[Incredulity 11650]

Also, we don't need more rules or regulations that delay adulthood and responsibility.  This country is already stuffed full of 28 year old man boys.

[Brian Fantana 6679]

Just now, Incredulity said:

18

Old enough to fight in a war, old enough to vote, drink, drive, fuck,..........

This. It's a simple point but it's one I agree with. 21 is a weird milestone to impose. It should be 18 like most of the rest of the world. If you're old enough to sign your life over, you're old enough to legally down a shot of whiskey in my book.

[Hank Kingsley 20904]

What are we gonna do about old people?

 

[Don Keibals 113]

Definitely should be 18 for everything or 21 for everything, not a mix of both.  Was watching one of those reality cop shows and they busted 2 20 year olds drinking and told them they had to call an adult to pick them up??? wft?  Their parents had to come get them. really strange

[pyrohornIII 4814]

Between technology and governance, the ability for a teen to get a job outside of fast food is pretty difficult.   When I was 16 nearly every kid in my small town worked on a farm, at a gin or elevator, in a mom and pop store or gas station.   Other than fast food and grocery stores those opportunities are gone.

On the other hand, more people are outsourcing yard service, dog washing, and other menial tasks, so some enterprising kids are filling these gaps in smaller communities.  

[TahoeHorn 107]

3 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

What are we gonna do about old people?

 

I don't know if this is serious or not but I live with my dad who is almost 93, and the question is very real.  For example, when do I start sitting in with him when he talks with his doctor.  Today I don't.  But I drive.  The list is long of decisions I will have to make regarding when to "take over" a responsibility.

[pyrohornIII 4814]

5 minutes ago, Don Keibals said:

Definitely should be 18 for everything or 21 for everything, not a mix of both.  Was watching one of those reality cop shows and they busted 2 20 year olds drinking and told them they had to call an adult to pick them up??? wft?  Their parents had to come get them. really strange

I agree with this.  Drinking age used to be 18, but then MADD happened. 

[Don Keibals 113]

I remember reading an article not too long ago saying that most college presidents wanted changed back to 18.  Also are you sure it was MADD? I seem to remember it had something to do with 18 year olds in high school being able to buy alcohol for their high school buddies--maybe it was a combo of both.

 

here's one of the articles:  College Presidents Urge Rethink On Drinking Age

Edited March 28, 2018 by Don Keibals

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

3 minutes ago, pyrohornIII said:

I agree with this.  Drinking age used to be 18, but then MADD happened. 

Angry bitches: Fucking shit up since the dawn of time

[pyrohornIII 4814]

2 minutes ago, TahoeHorn said:

I don't know if this is serious or not but I live with my dad who is almost 93, and the question is very real.  For example, when do I start sitting in with him when he talks with his doctor.  Today I don't.  But I drive.  The list is long of decisions I will have to make regarding when to "take over" a responsibility.

I am right there with you.   My mother has fairly mild dementia at 90,  but we just can't see her going into a home, so I take care of her.  I have been her medical advocate for almost 10 years now.  She can't hear shit, can't remember shit, so I have to sit in to be her memory.    

You know, a thread on caring for our parents in situations like this would be pretty good.  Under help?

 

[RDCanecutter 26381]

I remember back when I was 9 I overheard some old successful dude saying all he needed to make all his money was knowing how to read and write, and do basic arithmetic. I was at school the next day and realized I knew all that stuff, and they were wasting my time from that point on. I vowed that I would quit school and just start making piles of money.

But laws and the prejudices of others conspired to keep me inside the school box.

Pretty much been downhill since then.

[hayden_horn 11362]

20 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

18

Old enough to fight in a war, old enough to vote, drink, drive, fuck,..........

i tend to agree with this. it's also old enough to face prosecution as an adult. 

which is sort of another tangential topic here. why do we prosecute minors as adults. how is that even legal? either the age means something or it doesn't.

[InkaUtexas 25859]

18 for all. Old enough to go to war, old enough to drink and vote no to war. 

[DanRydell 799]

Driving seems a hell of a lot more dangerous than voting.

The age to be prosecuted as an adult should also match the voting age.

[Cheeseweasel 26438]

9 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

I remember back when I was 9 I overheard some old successful dude saying all he needed to make all his money was knowing how to read and write, and do basic arithmetic. I was at school the next day and realized I knew all that stuff, and they were wasting my time from that point on. I vowed that I would quit school and just start making piles of money.

But laws and the prejudices of others conspired to keep me inside the school box.

Pretty much been downhill since then.

Something, something, something....now I live in Alabama.

RIP.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

What about earning a living playing in the NFL at age 18 or 19? Because 99% of players can not.  Why is that? 

I know it’s in the NFL CBA rules between the players and owners that a person must be three years removed from high school to be NFL eligible but why is that?

I’ve been of the opinion if you’re good enough to earn a living playing football at age 18, you should be allowed to do so if you choose.

Edited March 28, 2018 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Hefeweizen 5310]

42 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

What are we gonna do about old people?

 

Death panels. Thanks Obama. 

[Hank Kingsley 20904]

31 minutes ago, TahoeHorn said:

I don't know if this is serious or not but I live with my dad who is almost 93, and the question is very real.  For example, when do I start sitting in with him when he talks with his doctor.  Today I don't.  But I drive.  The list is long of decisions I will have to make regarding when to "take over" a responsibility.

Sorry to hear that, Tahoe.  

But I was referencing the "16 yo boy disease", and what I would call the "75 year old man disease".  Should old people  be making decisions that impact other people's lives?

 

 

[softlynow 1812]

As a lawyer, I think we need more variety in the ages when things are permissible. The more confusion y'all have, the more job stability I have.

[bernorange 8359]

I mentioned this topic in the Gun Control thread on the old forum.  We should have consistent laws with respect to the age of adulthood.  I'm not sure that 18 is necessarily the best demarcation as kids are still in high school at that age.  I would like to see a threshold that ensures kids are out of high school before society recognizes them as adults.  JMO.

[softlynow 1812]

26 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

i tend to agree with this. it's also old enough to face prosecution as an adult. 

which is sort of another tangential topic here. why do we prosecute minors as adults. how is that even legal? either the age means something or it doesn't.

As with all things legal, age means something except when it doesn't.

[TahoeHorn 107]

8 minutes ago, Hank Kingsley said:

Sorry to hear that, Tahoe.  

But I was referencing the "16 yo boy disease", and what I would call the "75 year old man disease".  Should old people  be making decisions that impact other people's lives?

 

 

I'd have a mandatory retirement age for government officials, including judges, Congress and the Prez and Veep.  It would require a Constitutional Amendment.  But that's a new thread.

Edited March 28, 2018 by TahoeHorn

[pyrohornIII 4814]

2 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

I think that, as life spans increase and elongate, it only makes sense to lengthen out rather than shorten. Why rush kids through childhood and throw them out to the cold, mean world at 18 when their lifespan is to like 90 instead of 60 like it was in the 1920's (making up numbers, but you get the point).

What I mean to say is that perhaps the 28 year old man-child-- perhaps that is the natural developmental state of a 28 year old who will live to 98 or what have you. Slow down, not speed up is my opinion.

I agree, but i think we should change the expectations of moving right out of high school into college.  It is fine for some, but not for others.   I think it is Switzerland that has a 2 year program where a high school grad decides what field they might want to join, then they work as an intern in that field, be it medical, finance, etc.   If they don't have a field they enter social services through the government or army.   After 2 years of actually working in the field they picked as their future, they have a better idea whether it's really what they want to do, or maybe in fact they can't do it.   Then the government gives them funding to continue with their education.  Not sure about full or partial ride, or what.

I honestly don't know the background of what i just cited, but it has been around at least 20 years.  Maybe it was a plan that never took shape.  I could have the scope of the plan or the country wrong as well. 

But the thrust is to give these kids a chance to breathe and live a little outside of their parents homes, to make a paycheck, sow some wild oats, etc before making a huge decision about their future.    Unfortunately a lot of our scholarship programs are directed at kids going right from high school to college.  I assume that these are carrots to get kids to make better grades in high school. 

[TahoeHorn 107]

24 minutes ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

I think that, as life spans increase and elongate, it only makes sense to lengthen out rather than shorten. Why rush kids through childhood and throw them out to the cold, mean world at 18 when their lifespan is to like 90 instead of 60 like it was in the 1920's (making up numbers, but you get the point).

What I mean to say is that perhaps the 28 year old man-child-- perhaps that is the natural developmental state of a 28 year old who will live to 98 or what have you. Slow down, not speed up is my opinion.

Good point.

Several hundred years ago people became financially independent, socially mature and sexually mature all at about 16.  Today the sexual maturity is about the same but the other two occur much later.  The requirement to be financially independent is profoundly different.  I had, and needed,  financial help till I was about 24 or so.  Today, if you're going to grad school you might need help till you're 28.  Hey if you want to be a brain surgeon you might not be on your own feet until 30 or so.  Should we give mortgages to 18 year olds?  I think usually not.

 

When is the average person in a position to marry, have kids and buy a house?  25?  27?  Not 16 or 18 like 300 years ago.

Edited March 28, 2018 by TahoeHorn

[sheeeit 129]

18 for everything.

[skeeter 454]

1 hour ago, Hank Kingsley said:

What are we gonna do about old people?

 

[Brisketexan 105060]

Lotta okies reading the “age of consent” part of this topic VERY intently.

[High Plains Drifter 11028]

We should make it legal to drink at 18, but not legal to drive (or enlist) until 21.

 

[Brian Fantana 6679]

Yes that's what we need, more 20 pluses that justify not getting a job because they can't drive themselves.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

2 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

We should make it legal to drink at 18, but not legal to drive (or enlist) until 21.

 

Yep. And we need better mass transit. Its kind of bullshit that bars in most parts of the US require driving to get to. Asking an 18 to 24 year old to stay sober while his friends all get drunk is a recipe for creating the drunk driving problem we have. 

[atomheartbevo 89626]

5 hours ago, TahoeHorn said:

When is the average person in a position to marry, have kids and buy a house?  25?  27?  Not 16 or 18 like 300 years ago.

You should probably look into World War II and Vietnam.  Plenty of 18 and 19 year olds getting married and having kids.  Hell, plenty of 16 and 17 year olds getting married in the '40s.

Ironically, more than a few people I went through basic training with, were going in the military because it's one of the few places (at the time) where an 18 or 19 year old with a kid on the way could expect to be taken care of.  At least in the 90s, it was dirt cheap to have a kid while you were in the military.

[Bozo_Casanova 26435]

7 hours ago, Incredulity said:

18

Old enough to fight in a war, old enough to vote, drink, drive, fuck,..........

I agree with you. If you’re old enough to get killed in service to your nation, you’re old enough to be responsible for yourself.

[ndawg 1242]

A better question: why do we treat 25 year old white upper middle class males as "boys" but everyone else as adults?

[HornPhD 1368]

7 hours ago, Incredulity said:

18

Old enough to fight in a war, old enough to vote, drink, drive, fuck,..........

Whatever age it is you can sign up to die for your country is the age you should be able to purchase alcohol. 

[RayDog 682]

Two thoughts.

When I girl decides she wants to get fucked there is no law that will stop her from achieving her goal.

Prohibition does not work at any age.

[NIUHuskies 504]

Just throwing this out there, the brain does not fully develop until 21 or 22. 

This might be worth considering with certain things.

 

[Longhorn94 2448]

agree

[FondrenRoad 4378]

18 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

This. It's a simple point but it's one I agree with. 21 is a weird milestone to impose. It should be 18 like most of the rest of the world. If you're old enough to sign your life over, you're old enough to legally down a shot of whiskey in my book.

In most of the world, people don't drive everywhere they go and bars don't have parking lots. Our drinking age is more about automobile operation after alcohol than it is about the alcohol itself. Had we not killed our towns and cities with sprawl, our drinking age would be 18 too. Once self driving cars take over, I imagine we'll set it back to 18. 

Edited March 29, 2018 by FondrenRoad

[Brian Fantana 6679]

12 hours ago, RayDog said:

Two thoughts.

When I girl decides she wants to get fucked there is no law that will stop her from achieving her goal.

Prohibition does not work at any age.

Roy Moore? That you? 

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

5 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Roy Moore? That you? 

RayPugh?

[RPM 26316]

22 hours ago, Incredulity said:

18

Old enough to fight in a war, old enough to vote, drink, drive, fuck,..........

This. 

[Brisketexan 105060]

13 hours ago, NIUHuskies said:

Just throwing this out there, the brain does not fully develop until 21 or 22. 

This might be worth considering with certain things.

 

The brain also degenerates after a certain age.

That also might be worth considering with certain things.

[bernorange 8359]

46 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The brain also degenerates after a certain age.

That also might be worth considering with certain things.

Yeah, I think I'm almost old enough that I should be exempt from most everything.

[AUS-97HORN 11756]

in regards to alcohol, most European countries allow some sort of legal consumption at age 14.  Yes, I know they have a good mass transit transportation system that gets the drunks around without driving, but I honestly think the earlier you get kids to drink ( and technically abuse) alcohol, the quicker they realize they dont need to get obliterated to have a good time.

having roughly 2 years of time to have your alcoholic lebensraum before you drive would probably take the shine off how "cool" alcohol is.  and I am guessing that most kids drinking for the first time will overdue it pretty quickly, and get their first pukefest hangover early on.  I know that deterred the shit out of me for about a year after I got truely blasted the first time in my life.  

I still drank afterwards, but I made a serious effort to cut down on the consumption because I didnt want to relive the porcelain god experience

[AUS-97HORN 11756]

1 minute ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

I started drinking at 15 and it became a huge problem in my life by the time it graduated into a disease. I'd rather not unleash that option upon others who might not be as intrepid about trying to drink too soon, especially considering we are a nation of problem drinkers as it is.

but there is a huge difference between doing something legally, vs illegally.  We all know there is a thrill to breaking laws like drinking and smoking, hell, sometimes driving as well. 

Im not saying its a perfect plan, but if you legalize alcohol earlier in life, it would help make it less "exciting" to drink until you are snockered.  At least thats the opinion of the European countries.  and if you are 15 and legally allowed to drink, I honestly feel like there is less of a chance of abuse happening because its no longer forbidden fruit.

The buildup to being 21 in this country is fucking nuts. all the hoops you have to go through to get alcohol illegally mean that when you DO get it, you fucking go overboard and drink too much because you dont know when you will get to drink again. 

[safe sex 11696]

17 hours ago, NIUHuskies said:

Just throwing this out there, the brain does not fully develop until 21 or 22. 

This might be worth considering with certain things.

 

Closer to 25, based on everything I've been taught. I can't recall if there was any variance seen based on sex, either. 25 seems a little old in terms of logistics for a lot of the activities talked about here.

[Jive Turkey 12594]

Why is this in Politics? Sounds more like a Bada Bing Current Events topic. Unless the end game is veiled request to raise the voting age because Parkland.