The OxyContin family

[Nice Guy Eddie 13507]

In another article, the Sackler attorney had the balls to say that this latest ruling is keeping money away from those who need help from the opioid epidemic. 

[Chad Fuck 17658]

In another article, the Sackler attorney had the balls to say that this latest ruling is keeping money away from those who need help from the opioid epidemic. 

That’s what the Debtors attorney always says about Plaintiff creditors - “We’re really doing you a favor and making this more fair for everyone.” It’s horseshit.

[TwiceHorn 31435]

1 minute ago, Chad Fuck said:

That’s what the Debtors attorney always says about Plaintiff creditors - “We’re really doing you a favor and making this more fair for everyone.” It’s horseshit.

How do you think this goes?  Apparently there's a circuit split on the validity of these liability limitations?

[tx 3 putt 76862]

Fuck them !!!

[Chad Fuck 17658]

How do you think this goes?  Apparently there's a circuit split on the validity of these liability limitations?

I don’t know but it certainly is one of the biggest bk issues of our time.

I have, however, heard J&Js counsel get up in court just this week and tell the bk judge that J&J - a $400 billion market cap co - would really be doing about 30k cancer victims (the only impaired creditors in the case) a favor by denying them their day in court before a jury. That it would be right and just to do so. This has been a refrain in tort driven bankruptcies for a long time. Makes me ragey.

It hits bankruptcy judges in their sweet spot, but it is also a weak spot because invariably judges just can’t see tort defendants hiding the ball. What would be obvious to a run of the mill state trial judge just doesn’t hit the radar of bankruptcy judges. It makes me a little ragey that bk judges see obvious attempts to sidestep the tort system by otherwise healthy companies and they just can’t help themselves from saying “the bankruptcy system can fix it!” It is not the bankruptcy courts’ role to allow otherwise healthy companies to escape their tort liabilities because those liabilities are inconvenient. It appears the District Court agrees - apparently a judge who sees trials often gets it - but we shall see at the Court of Appeals now.

[pronghorn 44]

Shocked that there is gambling in here!

[TwiceHorn 31435]

On 12/19/2021 at 7:02 AM, Chad Fuck said:

I don’t know but it certainly is one of the biggest bk issues of our time.

I have, however, heard J&Js counsel get up in court just this week and tell the bk judge that J&J - a $400 billion market cap co - would really be doing about 30k cancer victims (the only impaired creditors in the case) a favor by denying them their day in court before a jury. That it would be right and just to do so. This has been a refrain in tort driven bankruptcies for a long time. Makes me ragey.

It hits bankruptcy judges in their sweet spot, but it is also a weak spot because invariably judges just can’t see tort defendants hiding the ball. What would be obvious to a run of the mill state trial judge just doesn’t hit the radar of bankruptcy judges. It makes me a little ragey that bk judges see obvious attempts to sidestep the tort system by otherwise healthy companies and they just can’t help themselves from saying “the bankruptcy system can fix it!” It is not the bankruptcy courts’ role to allow otherwise healthy companies to escape their tort liabilities because those liabilities are inconvenient. It appears the District Court agrees - apparently a judge who sees trials often gets it - but we shall see at the Court of Appeals now.

Yeah, it seems bankruptcy judges just see these "collateral proceedings" as an annoyance to their administration of the case.

On the other hand, though, it does seem like there is some risk to tort plaintiffs, without a defendant in BK, or even with but without some sort of "administration" of their claims, of the FIFO problem for some late-claiming, or late-to-judgment plaintiffs left with nothing to collect.

Limitation of liability seems to be a blunderbuss solution to a more narrow problem, though.

Edited December 20, 2021 by TwiceHorn

[Chad Fuck 17658]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Yeah, it seems bankruptcy judges just see these "collateral proceedings" as an annoyance to their administration of the case.

On the other hand, though, it does seem like there is some risk to tort plaintiffs, without a defendant in BK, or even with but without some sort of "administration" of their claims, of the FIFO problem for some late-claiming, or late-to-judgment plaintiffs left with nothing to collect.

Limitation of liability seems to be a blunderbuss solution to a more narrow problem, though.

Your first point re "collateral proceedings" as annoyance is absolutely spot on.  They are focused on getting a deal done.  They are rarely focused on whether the Debtor should be there in the first place.  But that's an honest mistake on their part, because seeing a Debtor show up that really should't be in bankruptcy is so rare to begin with.  They don't want to believe it even when you put all the evidence in front of them.  It's roughly analogous to tort judges giving wide latitude to a plaintiff's decision on where to file.  But man, sometimes some plaintiffs need to get poured out too.  

I'm not sure I follow on your other points.  Expound please.

[Parliament 14228]

Using the words a moron can understand, legally, should any of these people go to jail?  Pay out their entire net worth and die poor, sure.  But pound-me-in-the-ass prison?

I'm kinda x threading with the Dopesick thread on the movie board.  I'm sure it's a bit sensationalized, but if the Sacklers are HALF that bad...  I just about lost it when they mentioned trying to get a label for kids.

[ChiTownDoc 21139]

58 minutes ago, Parliament said:

Using the words a moron can understand, legally, should any of these people go to jail?  Pay out their entire net worth and die poor, sure.  But pound-me-in-the-ass prison?

I'm kinda x threading with the Dopesick thread on the movie board.  I'm sure it's a bit sensationalized, but if the Sacklers are HALF that bad...  I just about lost it when they mentioned trying to get a label for kids.

If there's thousands of people in jail for selling a few grams of blow... and there's still people in jail for peddling weed?  Then yes, they 100% should be in jail.  

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4974]

That logic doesn't follow. I'm not commenting on this case, but just because someone else is unjustly jailed doesn't make it just to jail another. We need criminal justice reform in this country, not regress.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13507]

Hard to say who belongs belong in jail. I'm sure some of the Sacklers were rich people that just saw money appear in their accounts each month and were oblivious as to the operations of their firm. I would concede that they could have easily been ignorant of the criminal aspect of their family business. 

But if you replace the names Purdue Pharma and Sackler with Tijuana Cartel and Arellano-Felix, would the ignorant cousin still get the benefit of only paying a percent of their wealth as a penalty just because they were not an active criminal?

EDIT: I can understand the dilemma in having non-violent people in prison versus only confiscating their money. However Purdue Pharma ruined lives, and drug addicts facilitated further crime and violence. Purdue Pharma and the Sackler might argue that imprisonment of any of them doesn't help society heal. that could be said of ANY criminal facing jail time. Justice isn't always about what is best for society but what is right.

Edited December 21, 2021 by Nice Guy Eddie

[DDD Dad 14324]

I was on Oxycontin for about 5 days earlier this month so this hits close to home.  Thankfully I didn't have any euphoria or desire to keep taking once I had gotten over the first few days after surgery (I think I threw out one or two remaining doses).

[Kyrie Eleison 9312]

personally and professionally, i find this thread fascinating on a variety of levels...no doubt due in some measure to the range of emotion it is producing in me.

[Seger78 258]

Just saw this thread. Highly recommend Empire of Pain by Patrick Radden Keefe if you're interested in a full history of the Sackler Family and the rise of opioids. Spoiler alert, that family is full of shit bags.

[TwiceHorn 31435]

On 12/20/2021 at 2:45 PM, Chad Fuck said:

Your first point re "collateral proceedings" as annoyance is absolutely spot on.  They are focused on getting a deal done.  They are rarely focused on whether the Debtor should be there in the first place.  But that's an honest mistake on their part, because seeing a Debtor show up that really should't be in bankruptcy is so rare to begin with.  They don't want to believe it even when you put all the evidence in front of them.  It's roughly analogous to tort judges giving wide latitude to a plaintiff's decision on where to file.  But man, sometimes some plaintiffs need to get poured out too.  

I'm not sure I follow on your other points.  Expound please.

I just mean that, sure there are already thousands or hundreds of thousands of tort claimants against Purdue.  Probably ready and able to file suit.

But then there are others, still in the throes of addiction, that may not be able to sue for another couple of years.

And some will be in jurisdictions where they get a judgment in a year, some two, some three.

Maybe it's all a class-action?  But there are still going to be tons that don't opt-in.

What's going to be left for the tail-end charlies?

It seems the limitation of liability almost exclusively affects tail-end charlies.

[XYZ 2154]

10 hours ago, Kyrie Eleison said:

personally and professionally, i find this thread fascinating on a variety of levels...no doubt due in some measure to the range of emotion it is producing in me.

Like, how many levels?

[Kyrie Eleison 9312]

33 minutes ago, XYZ said:

Like, how many levels?

well…i’m a recovering addict whose addiction started with an opioid script, and have published my experiences with addiction and recovery.  and i’m a lawyer who at one time did mass tort in the area pharmaceutical litigation but now practice criminal law.  
 

so yeah…personal and professional.  

[XYZ 2154]

On 12/21/2021 at 11:04 PM, Kyrie Eleison said:

well…i’m a recovering addict whose addiction started with an opioid script, and have published my experiences with addiction and recovery.  and i’m a lawyer who at one time did mass tort in the area pharmaceutical litigation but now practice criminal law.  
 

so yeah…personal and professional.  

Weren’t you also an ordained minister, or am I missremembering?

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19100]

The Sackler galleries at the Met have all been renamed.  I believe there was also a big push to remove all Sacklers from all the big nonprofit boards as well.  I believe the Louvre also removed their name from the walls.  I hope all the big institutions do that.  

[Kyrie Eleison 9312]

19 hours ago, XYZ said:

Weren’t you also an ordained minister, or am I missremembering?

that is correct…i graduated from divinity school prior to going to law school.  

[Scooter Monzingo 820]

On 12/26/2021 at 4:20 PM, Kyrie Eleison said:

that is correct…i graduated from divinity school prior to going to law school.  

You have a interesting story. I have been misreading you. Mea culpa

[Kyrie Eleison 9312]

7 hours ago, Scooter Monzingo said:

You have a interesting story. I have been misreading you. Mea culpa

you have zero to apologies for, my man.   i’m grateful for your inquiries, in fact.  
 

a bit more…i had a total shoulder arthroscopy (shoulder replacement surgery) this morning.  and i’m trying to do my recovery opiate free…prior to surgery i met with my ortho and an anesthesiologist and came up with a plan that includes a nerve block that hopefully will last three days (so far, so good), and a cocktail gabapentine, 800 mg Motrin and robaxin.   if i e per break through pain, i’ll head to my PCP or ER a shot of Dilaudid to hopefully get back on top of. 
 

But right this very second even though i'm numbed up and immobile in this sling, i  can feel it.  and it’s only going to worse.  

i don’t know is this going to work. 

my options are very limited on what i can do we’re that situation arise. 

[Scooter Monzingo 820]

17 minutes ago, Kyrie Eleison said:

you have zero to apologies for, my man.   i’m grateful for your inquiries, in fact.  
 

a bit more…i had a total shoulder arthroscopy (shoulder replacement surgery) this morning.  and i’m trying to do my recovery opiate free…prior to surgery i met with my ortho and an anesthesiologist and came up with a plan that includes a nerve block that hopefully will last three days (so far, so good), and a cocktail gabapentine, 800 mg Motrin and robaxin.   if i e per break through pain, i’ll head to my PCP or ER a shot of Dilaudid to hopefully get back on top of. 
 

But right this very second even though i'm numbed up and immobile in this sling, i  can feel it.  and it’s only going to worse.  

i don’t know is this going to work. 

my options are very limited on what i can do we’re that situation arise. 

Keep the faith brother. Fuck being held hostage to the demon..

[High Plains Drifter 11024]

 

On 12/20/2021 at 7:45 PM, Parliament said:

Using the words a moron can understand, legally, should any of these people go to jail?  Pay out their entire net worth and die poor, sure.  But pound-me-in-the-ass prison?

I'm kinda x threading with the Dopesick thread on the movie board.  I'm sure it's a bit sensationalized, but if the Sacklers are HALF that bad...  I just about lost it when they mentioned trying to get a label for kids.

 

legally? Dunno, not a lawyer. Morally? absolutely.

 

On 12/20/2021 at 8:44 PM, ChiTownDoc said:

If there's thousands of people in jail for selling a few grams of blow... and there's still people in jail for peddling weed?  Then yes, they 100% should be in jail.  

 

On 12/21/2021 at 2:22 AM, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

That logic doesn't follow. I'm not commenting on this case, but just because someone else is unjustly jailed doesn't make it just to jail another. We need criminal justice reform in this country, not regress.

 

The only way we are ever going to get criminal justice reform in this country is when the rich white people start going to jail right along with the poor black people.

 

[Updawg 2266]

you have zero to apologies for, my man.   i’m grateful for your inquiries, in fact.  
 
a bit more…i had a total shoulder arthroscopy (shoulder replacement surgery) this morning.  and i’m trying to do my recovery opiate free…prior to surgery i met with my ortho and an anesthesiologist and came up with a plan that includes a nerve block that hopefully will last three days (so far, so good), and a cocktail gabapentine, 800 mg Motrin and robaxin.   if i e per break through pain, i’ll head to my PCP or ER a shot of Dilaudid to hopefully get back on top of. 
 
But right this very second even though i'm numbed up and immobile in this sling, i  can feel it.  and it’s only going to worse.  
i don’t know is this going to work. 
my options are very limited on what i can do we’re that situation arise. 

Good for you. Keep hanging tough. I’m impressed

[Deej 76750]

8 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

 

legally? Dunno, not a lawyer. Morally? absolutely.

 

 

 

The only way we are ever going to get criminal justice reform in this country is when the rich white people start going to jail right along with the poor black people.

 

So, never?

[BearSchlong 8083]

you have zero to apologies for, my man.   i’m grateful for your inquiries, in fact.  
 
a bit more…i had a total shoulder arthroscopy (shoulder replacement surgery) this morning.  and i’m trying to do my recovery opiate free…prior to surgery i met with my ortho and an anesthesiologist and came up with a plan that includes a nerve block that hopefully will last three days (so far, so good), and a cocktail gabapentine, 800 mg Motrin and robaxin.   if i e per break through pain, i’ll head to my PCP or ER a shot of Dilaudid to hopefully get back on top of. 
 
But right this very second even though i'm numbed up and immobile in this sling, i  can feel it.  and it’s only going to worse.  
i don’t know is this going to work. 
my options are very limited on what i can do we’re that situation arise. 

Buddy, that takes stones. Had mine done a few years back and had the wife dole out the Norcos for a few days.

Fyi Dad passed last week, JBW MC'd the memorial service.

[Kyrie Eleison 9312]

43 minutes ago, BearSchlong said:

Buddy, that takes stones. Had mine done a few years back and had the wife dole out the Norcos for a few days.

Fyi Dad passed last week, JBW MC'd the memorial service.

damn…sorry to hear that, brother.  we’ll say a prayer for y’all tonight.  
 

stones ain’t got nothing to do with it…it’s a choice between one misery and the potential for a much greater misery.  
 

i chose the bird in hand.  
 

but i’ll tell you right now that i’m hurting. 

[BearSchlong 8083]

I get it. And talking about it is so important.

[tbone_ 14106]

damn…sorry to hear that, brother.  we’ll say a prayer for y’all tonight.  
 
stones ain’t got nothing to do with it…it’s a choice between one misery and the potential for a much greater misery.  
 
i chose the bird in hand.  
 
but i’ll tell you right now that i’m hurting. 

How are you hang in?

[Kyrie Eleison 9312]

5 hours ago, tbone_ said:

How are you hang in?

hanging… and it’s slowly getting better.  my medication regimen is gabapentin, 800 mg Motrin and flexaril….and at first it didn’t do much at all to help.  i had 2 days of breakthrough pain after the nerve block wore off and it was excruciating.  but i’m 12 days out now and have had 3 PT sessions under my belt, and the swelling and inflammation have slowly been reduced, so things are now finally and pleasantly tolerable.

i posted this in another thread, but I took this the day before surgery as a momento being that i’ll have to forego the gym for a solid year given that I’m doing the other shoulder in September…

 
this second “pic” was taken yesterday…

big changes for sure, but I’m 54 years old and still clean af.  and that’s all that matters.

appreciate you asking, bro…