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Tom Brady Is UnFucking Real

Vic Mackey

By Vic Mackey
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ztejas

ztejas 43266

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1 minute ago, smuggs said:

Drama queen nonsense. Post exactly what he said if it was so horrific. Or shut the fuck up and take the loss, pussy.

 

I think he said "nanny nanny boo boo, stick your head in doo doo, I have more super bowls than you do"

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Scooter Monzingo

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10 hours ago, orangecat92 said:

...and I almost forgot....the score that some people care abou the most..

Super Bowls won by Tom Brady without Belichek.....1

Super Bowls won by Belichek without Brady.............0

 

I think Tom is determined to keep his advantage in this area. 

 

 

I get your point. It may be semantics. but Bill Belicek has 8 rings, six in NE, two with Giants.

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smwhorn

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I was about half listening at the end of the game but thought I heard Romo say something like:

1.  While TB was on the Patriots, of the four major professional leagues, the Patriots had the highest winning % of any team.

2  Before TB got to Tampa Bay, of the four major professional leagues, the Bucs had the worst winning % of any team.

3.  TB goes to TB and wins the Super Bowl.

Did my bourbon consumption cause me to mis-hear this info?

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gsoda3

gsoda3 3236

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6 minutes ago, smwhorn said:

I was about half listening at the end of the game but thought I heard Romo say something like:

1.  While TB was on the Patriots, of the four major professional leagues, the Patriots had the highest winning % of any team.

2  Before TB got to Tampa Bay, of the four major professional leagues, the Bucs had the worst winning % of any team.

3.  TB goes to TB and wins the Super Bowl.

Did my bourbon consumption cause me to mis-hear this info?

that's what i heard

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Vic Mackey

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1 minute ago, Texas St. Armadillos said:

Romo also said that Mahomes was going to play in and win a ton more Super Bowls.  

They said the same about Brees and Rodgers earlier in their careers. Both have never been back. Russell Wilson was supposed to get back a lot after he lost to Brady in 2014. Not only has he not got back, he hasn't gotten past the divisional round. This shit is hard unless you are Brady. Mahomes is very young and damn good but this league has a way of humbling even the best. It's even did it to Brady at certain points in his career. Mahomes will get back I think do doubt but how many times?

The crazy thing about this Super Bowl was Brady was almost being overlooked and counted out. Mahomes is the young fresh QB who took the league by storm. So many wrote off Brady because of his age and he can't hang with Mahomes. The old man took KC to school. Once Brady got into a rhythm, KC had no answer. And this was the second game in a row Brady leads them to a TD to end the half. That changed the game completely. Extended the leads. Went from 14-10 to 21-10 in GB and 14-6 to 21-6 last night. He would have hit Evans for like a 60yd TD had he not been tripped. Evans got past his man and Brady launched a great ball that Evans would have ran right under. Crazy thing is, KC took the timeout trying to get the ball back on that drive when it was 3rd and 2. They gambled and then lost.

Aside from a late game spurt last year against SF, KC's offense in the Super Bowl has been pretty bad. Mahomes was off all game. Even aside from the pressure and drops, he was not the same. He did not have the magic.

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Vic Mackey

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6 minutes ago, Valmy77 said:

Not if he continues to get hit like he did last night. 

Yep. His body is not built for those hits (then again, is anyone's?). But, he is not Big Ben's stature where he can withstand more hits.

I will say, Mahomes pulled out some fucking magical throws going to the ground last night that hit his guys in the hands. That would have been some of the greatest in SB history and would have changed the game. But it wasn't their night at all. From the first drive, their offense was off.

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Funk Doctor Spock

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Just now, Vic Mackey said:

Yep. His body is not built for those hits (then again, is anyone's?). But, he is not Big Ben's stature where he can withstand more hits.

I will say, Mahomes pulled out some fucking magical throws going to the ground last night that hit his guys in the hands. That would have been some of the greatest in SB history and would have changed the game. But it wasn't their night at all. From the first drive, their offense was off.

Yep. Some of those throws he was making while going to the ground were eye popping. I honestly thought at least two would be TD's. It was insane. 

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Bigbend1812

Bigbend1812 12889

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5 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

They said the same about Brees and Rodgers earlier in their careers. Both have never been back. Russell Wilson was supposed to get back a lot after he lost to Brady in 2014. Not only has he not got back, he hasn't gotten past the divisional round. This shit is hard unless you are Brady. Mahomes is very young and damn good but this league has a way of humbling even the best. It's even did it to Brady at certain points in his career. Mahomes will get back I think do doubt but how many times?

The crazy thing about this Super Bowl was Brady was almost being overlooked and counted out. Mahomes is the young fresh QB who took the league by storm. So many wrote off Brady because of his age and he can't hang with Mahomes. The old man took KC to school. Once Brady got into a rhythm, KC had no answer. And this was the second game in a row Brady leads them to a TD to end the half. That changed the game completely. Extended the leads. Went from 14-10 to 21-10 in GB and 14-6 to 21-6 last night. He would have hit Evans for like a 60yd TD had he not been tripped. Evans got past his man and Brady launched a great ball that Evans would have ran right under. Crazy thing is, KC took the timeout trying to get the ball back on that drive when it was 3rd and 2. They gambled and then lost.

Aside from a late game spurt last year against SF, KC's offense in the Super Bowl has been pretty bad. Mahomes was off all game. Even aside from the pressure and drops, he was not the same. He did not have the magic.

dan marino holy shit GIF

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UncleSonny

UncleSonny 6559

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11 hours ago, Spider2YBanana said:

We easily have the best WR corps he's ever had

Come on, 2007 Pats with Moss, Welker, Stallworth, and Watson is a better receiving group than this Tampa team. The Bucs had very good receivers this year, that team had the 2nd best WR in NFL history in his prime plus a guy who had 112 catches. 

It's probably worth noting when considering whether Brady was "lucky" to win any of those Super Bowls (stupid argument, but whatever) is the 2008 season he missed. That was a really good NE team, Matt Cassel got them to 11 wins. The Steelers team that won it that year was good but certainly beatable. Give the Pats a healthy Brady all season and pretty reasonable chance that he adds another title in '08.

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Gene Parmesan

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13 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

They said the same about Brees and Rodgers earlier in their careers. Both have never been back. Russell Wilson was supposed to get back a lot after he lost to Brady in 2014. Not only has he not got back, he hasn't gotten past the divisional round. This shit is hard unless you are Brady. Mahomes is very young and damn good but this league has a way of humbling even the best. It's even did it to Brady at certain points in his career. Mahomes will get back I think do doubt but how many times?

The crazy thing about this Super Bowl was Brady was almost being overlooked and counted out. Mahomes is the young fresh QB who took the league by storm. So many wrote off Brady because of his age and he can't hang with Mahomes. The old man took KC to school. Once Brady got into a rhythm, KC had no answer. And this was the second game in a row Brady leads them to a TD to end the half. That changed the game completely. Extended the leads. Went from 14-10 to 21-10 in GB and 14-6 to 21-6 last night. He would have hit Evans for like a 60yd TD had he not been tripped. Evans got past his man and Brady launched a great ball that Evans would have ran right under. Crazy thing is, KC took the timeout trying to get the ball back on that drive when it was 3rd and 2. They gambled and then lost.

Aside from a late game spurt last year against SF, KC's offense in the Super Bowl has been pretty bad. Mahomes was off all game. Even aside from the pressure and drops, he was not the same. He did not have the magic.

Yeah it was a weird bit, and I have no idea why they brought it up.  Brady's SB appearances and wins aren't some new standard to judge QBs, it's a freak of nature statistic like Wilt's 100 pt game.  There is no point in talking about anyone living up to that.

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Vic Mackey

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Just now, UncleSonny said:

Come on, 2007 Pats with Moss, Welker, Stallworth, and Watson is a better receiving group than this Tampa team. The Bucs had very good receivers this year, that team had the 2nd best WR in NFL history in his prime plus a guy who had 112 catches. 

It's probably worth noting when considering whether Brady was "lucky" to win any of those Super Bowls (stupid argument, but whatever) is the 2008 season he missed. That was a really good NE team, Matt Cassel got them to 11 wins. The Steelers team that won it that year was good but certainly beatable. Give the Pats a healthy Brady all season and pretty reasonable chance that he adds another title in '08.

I think some people forget about how stacked and great that 2007 team was because it gets overshadowed by them losing to Eli in the Super Bowl. There is no way this Bucs WR corp is better than Randy Moss and the rest. That year, Randy Moss and Brady were god damn unbelievable. Wes Welker was damn good.

I find it funny that so many try and downplay Brady's accomplishment this year by saying he joined some stacked team to win. Thereby, what he did was not a big deal.Bullshit. He took a 7-9 team and a franchise who has not made the playoffs in forever and in one season, they win it all. And the path he went through. Brees, Rodgers, Mahomes. No longer did he have the top seed and got a freebie at home against a very lesser team. All the narratives people loved to spew to try and diminish what he did, he refuted all that. Which was he played in an easy division, got freebie wins, always got the top seed and never had to worry about tough games until the championship round. He erased all that this year.

But I'm sure some will still think that dork Rodgers is the real goat lmao.

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Funk Doctor Spock

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15 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

Come on, 2007 Pats with Moss, Welker, Stallworth, and Watson is a better receiving group than this Tampa team. The Bucs had very good receivers this year, that team had the 2nd best WR in NFL history in his prime plus a guy who had 112 catches. 

It's probably worth noting when considering whether Brady was "lucky" to win any of those Super Bowls (stupid argument, but whatever) is the 2008 season he missed. That was a really good NE team, Matt Cassel got them to 11 wins. The Steelers team that won it that year was good but certainly beatable. Give the Pats a healthy Brady all season and pretty reasonable chance that he adds another title in '08.

Man, we'll have to agree to disagree. 

 

Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, and Antonio Brown 

Vs

Moss, Welker, Stallworth? Come on. Moss? For sure. But Welker over AB? Stallworth over Evans or Goodwin? Nah, bro. 

 

I do agree with you about Welker being fucking good, tho. He was great, but on talent alone AB is just better. Period. 

 

Also, fuck Rodgers. 

Edited by Spider2YBanana
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Vic Mackey

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5 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Yeah it was a weird bit, and I have no idea why they brought it up.  Brady's SB appearances and wins aren't some new standard to judge QBs, it's a freak of nature statistic like Wilt's 100 pt game.  There is no point in talking about anyone living up to that.

It's crazy because it seems like the NFL did everything they could to try and create this balance. Making it difficult to create dynasties and rule for so long. This isn't the Packers dominating a 8 team league a million years ago. They did it against free agency and the salary cap. Now one thing I will say that helped that no other team really got to benefit from was Brady always played for way less than what he was worth. Because he didn't need to worry about salary seeing his wife was fucking loaded. Brady should have gotten a $500mill contract a long time ago if he was to be paid what he was really worth. But he never needed this.

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satyanash

satyanash 14281

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(Ian Boyd) Tom Brady: Master talent scout

Quote

What's the main difference between Michael Jordan and his modern challengers LeBron James and Tom Brady? The latter two didn't allow the front office to limit their window at the tail end of their career. Obviously Michael Jordan wasn't done dominating on the hardwood when he retired after his second consecutive three-peat. His franchise was done though, Jerry Krause wanted to strip the team apart and rebuild and MJ couldn't figure out how to manufacture more championship-contending contexts around him so he retired again.

LeBron James has left his franchise for a better situation three times now in his career. The first time he created the Heatles with Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade and went to the NBA Finals four consecutive times, winning twice. In his final season in Miami he realized Wade was becoming washed up and the Spurs were sagging hard off him anytime he didn't have the ball, so he bailed for Cleveland and directed the Cavs to trade the Andrew Wiggins pick for top-shooting big man Kevin Love. Four more NBA Finals appearances, one more championship. Kyrie Irving bailed on him in Cleveland and the Cav roster was falling apart so James bailed again, sucked it up for one bad year with the Lakers, and then directed a massive trade for Anthony Davis which has made the Lakers perennial favorites.

Tom Brady was able to lean on Bill Belichik and Ernie Adams for 17 years to keep the Patriot roster evolving and adapting in order to contend for championships. But the 2019 season ended with Brady throwing a pick-6 trying to carry a moribund offensive team against the Tennessee Titans. The 2018 Patriots had won the Super Bowl, defeating the Patrick Mahomes Kansas City Chiefs along the way along with the Sean McVay LA Rams, but then Gronk retired and most of the credit clearly belonged to Bill Belichik and the ever-evolving and playoff-savvy Patriot defense.

There were certainly questions over whether Brady would make a difference in Tampa Bay, even though the Bucs clearly had big time talent which was being thwarted by Jameis Winston's persistence on throwing as many interceptions as he possibly could (30 in 2019). It's clear now Brady picked out the perfect spot to keep contending for championships, much as LeBron did when heading back to strip-mine Cleveland or leaving for Los Angeles.

The 2019 Bucs were 23rd in offensive DVOA per Football Outsiders, held back primarily due to Winston's record-setting INT rate, and the defense was 6th in DVOA. This team was literally just steady leadership at quarterback away from having a chance to contend...and Tom Brady knew it.

From Bill Belichik to Todd Bowles

One area where I had questions though was defensive coordinator. Todd Bowles was destroyed by the Chiefs in the regular season and has a reputation for being an aggressive, blitzing defensive coordinator who'd effectively stockpiled pass-rushers on the Tampa Bay roster. Even with the Chiefs missing virtually the entire 2019 Championship O-line by the time this game was played, I argued it was a trap to try and beat them with pressure.

As I wrote up in the preview:   

Quote

Ian Boyd said:
    Two doors confront Bucs defensive coordinator Todd Bowles

    Behind door no. 1 is to follow a conventional strategy for beating a team like the Chiefs. Match up as best you can, mix your looks, and rush the passer with an exotic and carefully crafted blitz package. This is essentially what Brent Venables did to Joe Burrow and the LSU Tigers in 2019, he played a 3-1-7 package which matched safeties and cornerbacks on all of the LSU wideouts and allowed them to bring multiple pressures without hanging some big slow linebacker out to dry against a receiver like Justin Jefferson.

    It was brilliant and worked like a charm...until it didn’t. Eventually Burrow and LSU figured out what they were doing, saw they were still getting 1-on-1 matchups for J’Marr Chase, and exploited them. The final score wasn’t even really close.

The right answer, as I explained:

Quote

Ian Boyd said:
    In my “space force” theory, the deep threat is the most important wide receiver, space force position. The Kansas City Chiefs have probably the most lethal deep threat passing game in NFL history because they combine 4.29 40 Tyreek Hill, who had 1276 yards and 15 touchdowns this season, with Patrick Mahomes. This is one of the fastest receivers we’ve ever watched play the game and the quarterback can hit him just about anywhere on the field whether he has a pocket to step into or not.

    Stopping that is the most important component for a Bucs victory. Last season Hill was targeted 16 times and produced nine catches for 105 yards. Not terrible, but not great either.

Quote

Ian Boyd said:
    My favorite blueprint for stopping a top offense is as follows. First, you double team the vertical threat and remove the danger of getting beat there. Secondly, you also send a “plus one” to whatever the secondary threat is from the offense. Finally, you play mano a mano on everything else.

I then explained how the "flyover defense" gave the Bucs the best chance to do this and suggested they might should play dime, even a 1-4-6 package with Ndamukong Suh flanked by Jason Pierre-Paul and Shaq Barrett on the defensive line, Lavonte David and Devin White at inside-backer, and then a nickel defender and a middle safety in addition to the two starting safeties and cornerbacks.

Todd Bowles didn't do that, but what he did do was effectively match the strategic goals I laid out with a different personnel package. Here was Bowles' Bucs solution.

2-4-5 nickel package with 2-man coverage most of the game and outside backers Shaq Barrett and Jason Pierre-Paul entrusted with maintaining lane discipline and keeping Mahomes in the pocket. Let him step up into defensive tackles Vita Vea and Ndamukong Suh behind his patchwork offensive line, that was a much better outcome than Mahomes buying time and space behind it all. You can't limit Mahomes' range, his arm can hit anything, he's the anti-Tom Brady in that you'd rather keep him up in the pocket.

The two ultra-deep safeties took care of the Tyreek Hill issue, there was virtually never a snap in which he could line up to either side of the formation and not have a safety sitting on top of him. Hill finished the game with seven catches on 10 targets for 73 yards and no touchdowns.

But 2-man under from the 2-4-5 nickel package left another challenge, the Kansas City running game. I don't mean their literal running game, the Chiefs were never winning this game by running the football, I mean tight end Travis Kelce. The star tight end was targeted 15 times and caught 10 balls for 133 yards but no touchdowns. Good day at the office but without the explosive dimension from Hill, not enough to win the game. Here's a couple of snaps to illustrate the Buccaneer strategy against Kelce, both coming against the dreaded "Y-iso" formations which have helped turned Kelce and Rob Gronkowski into household names.

On this play the Chiefs create a Y-iso formation by motioning Hill to the opposite side before the snap as a decoy on a bubble screen. The Bucs hit Kelce at the line with Pierre-Paul and then again with linebacker Devin White before cornerback Jamel Dean arrived, but it wasn't enough here as Kelce found an opening for a first down. The drive ended here:

Y-iso again, Dean matches Kelce with a safety over the top, (2-man coverage everywhere), and this time the pass-rush obliterates the KC O-line and Mahomes never has a chance to try and find Kelce or anyone else. The game really hinged on three things for the Buc defense. First, successfully holding up in the seams in coverage with linebackers Lavonte David and Devin White, secondly containing Mahomes with a disciplined outside rush, and finally beating the KC line in large part with the defensive tackles generating a consistent push inside.

You can afford to wait for the interior pass rush if you can clamp down in 2-man without the quarterback getting out of the pocket and torching you. I really wasn't sure if David and White were up for this against Kelce, but they held up just well enough. This was the sort of defensive gameplan Bill Belichik would have had for this contest, Bowles stepped in for Brady's old counterpart.

Narrative takeaways for football

Two easy narratives from this game which are grievously followed center around Tampa Bay's success running the football and the effectiveness of their pass-rush. Their pass-rush was effective in large part because they didn't give Kansas City ANYTHING quick or easy. You can't beat 2-man coverage with quick shots on matchup problems, especially if the tight end is getting bumped at the line, you need longer developing plays or to run the football. This wasn't a triumph of the blitz or pressure package, this was about doing less with more and emphasizing coverage and denying space.

Similarly, Tampa Bay ran the football well and it certainly helped them but KC didn't lose this game for lack of possessions or chances on offense. They couldn't move the ball on the Bucs. It took Mahomes 49 pass attempts to reach 270 passing yards and a lot of late attempts to break five ypa. Running the football is useful for denying your opponent chances to get into a rhythm or chances to get extra possessions to wear out your defense and solve your gameplan. KC's only chance was to wear out the Buccaneer pass-rush and they didn't really make much progress there primarily because they couldn't get first downs, not because the Bucs ran the ball so well.

I'd argue the run game was important mostly for allowing a team with a 43-year old quarterback to sustain drives and get points on the board. Helpful, no doubt, but much less a key to the game than Bowles having the right defensive gameplan. The obvious meta-narratives around this game are about Patrick Mahomes and Tom Brady but I'm not sure there's much to say on either.

Mahomes was brilliant in this game and had at least three insane throws he pulled out of his wizard's hat which hit receivers in the hands or face and were dropped. They didn't lose because his receivers didn't expect those throws and failed to make the most of them, but it was still eye-catching to see and an easy way to demonstrate this game's outcome isn't a useful barometer of Mahomes' ability. It's not a good reflection of the Chiefs either, it's hard to win with a completely rebuilt offensive line missing four starters from your preseason depth chart.

My main takeaway with Brady was "wow, he picked the perfect place to keep doing his thing and winning titles." It was a very nice game for Brady, he's maintaining his physical effectiveness at insane ages in part with diet and in part with his understanding of the game and ability to see the field and get the ball out quickly. He extended his title contention window though by going to a team with Todd Bowles, Chris Godwin, Mike Evans, Antonio Brown, recent first round picks of Devin White and Tristan Wirfs, and then old pal Rob Gronkowski coming out of retirement.

The main narrative I'd push from this game was the "stop the pass first" strategy is clearly dominating the NFL today and anyone insisting the run game is still the key ingredient simply doesn't want to see the truth.

On a lesser level, I noticed a few interesting throwback themes for Texas Longhorn fans. The winning strategy for Bowles mirrored an approach Charlie Strong took during parts of the 2016 matchup between Texas and Patrick Mahomes' Texas Tech. Texas started playing cover 2, rushing three, and spying Mahomes with Malik Jefferson so he couldn't just scramble and buy time forever to beat their coverages.

Additionally, the Bucs' winning strategy asked a lot of Ndamukong Suh and Lavonte David. The former executed a similar strategy and nearly upset Colt McCoy and the Texas Longhorns in the 2009 Big 12 Championship Game, the following year Suh went pro and the Cornhuskers welcomed Lavonte David from the JUCO ranks as their new middle linebacker. It's sorta funny to see so much Nebraska defense in the Super Bowl, the program has hardly had a good reputation on that side of the ball since Bo Pellini was fired.

In other fun college football connections, the Buc defense started Auburn cornerbacks at both positions with Carlton Davis and Jamel Dean and their entire defense is basically a who's who of defensive stars from the last half-decade of college football with Vita Vea, Devin White, Antoine Winfield, and Jordan Whitehead all in there. Vea is the only defender on that list older than 25 (26), everyone else is 24 or younger (Devin White is 21!).

On the other side of the ball, Chris Godwin is 24, Tristan Wirfs is 22, and Mike Evans is 27. Brace yourself Mahomes and NFL fans, Brady vs Mahomes may be a trilogy fight or more.

 

Edited by satyanash
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Funk Doctor Spock

Funk Doctor Spock 11923

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1 minute ago, ztejas said:

Not a "WR corps" but in 2011 Brady threw for 5,000 with Welker, peak Gronk, prime Hernandez and Branch who still had a little juice in the tank and had over 700 receiving yards. 

That's still amazing regardless. You always forget about Hernandez, but that Pos was a good player. 

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UncleSonny

UncleSonny 6559

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2 minutes ago, Spider2YBanana said:

Man, we'll have to agree to disagree. 

 

Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, and Antonio Brown 

Vs

Moss, Welker, Stallworth? Come on. Moss? For sure. But Welker over AB? Stallworth over Evans or Goodwin? Nah, bro. 

I gather you are a Tampa fan so you have a homer glasses on but this isn't even close. Objective stats favor the Pats. Subjective all pro teams do too. Moss was 1st team all pro in 07 and Welker was 2nd team. Tampa has... no all-pro pass catchers.

2021 AB isn't close to the same player as he was, you could argue Scotty Miller was better than him this year. 

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ztejas

ztejas 43266

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6 minutes ago, satyanash said:

Obviously Michael Jordan wasn't done dominating on the hardwood when he retired after his second consecutive three-peat.

This is stupid and revisionist. He was 36 at the time I beleive and his game was declining. Of course he was done dominating - he didn't keep playing. 

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Funk Doctor Spock

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Just now, UncleSonny said:

I gather you are a Tampa fan so you have a homer glasses on but this isn't even close. Objective stats favor the Pats. Subjective all pro teams do too. Moss was 1st team all pro in 07 and Welker was 2nd team. Tampa has... no all-pro pass catchers.

2021 AB isn't close to the same player as he was, you could argue Scotty Miller was better than him this year. 

Yeah, I'm a Tampa fan so you are right about my bias. And admittedly I never really watched much of the Pats other than the playoffs, MNF, SNF, and big games, so yeah, I'm gonna favor Tampa just because I'm a fan. But I really do believe from a talent perspective that we have the edge, but that's just on talent alone. Not necessarily production. 

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Nivek

Nivek 16861

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They said the same about Brees and Rodgers earlier in their careers. Both have never been back. Russell Wilson was supposed to get back a lot after he lost to Brady in 2014. Not only has he not got back, he hasn't gotten past the divisional round. This shit is hard unless you are Brady. Mahomes is very young and damn good but this league has a way of humbling even the best. It's even did it to Brady at certain points in his career. Mahomes will get back I think do doubt but how many times?
The crazy thing about this Super Bowl was Brady was almost being overlooked and counted out. Mahomes is the young fresh QB who took the league by storm. So many wrote off Brady because of his age and he can't hang with Mahomes. The old man took KC to school. Once Brady got into a rhythm, KC had no answer. And this was the second game in a row Brady leads them to a TD to end the half. That changed the game completely. Extended the leads. Went from 14-10 to 21-10 in GB and 14-6 to 21-6 last night. He would have hit Evans for like a 60yd TD had he not been tripped. Evans got past his man and Brady launched a great ball that Evans would have ran right under. Crazy thing is, KC took the timeout trying to get the ball back on that drive when it was 3rd and 2. They gambled and then lost.
Aside from a late game spurt last year against SF, KC's offense in the Super Bowl has been pretty bad. Mahomes was off all game. Even aside from the pressure and drops, he was not the same. He did not have the magic.

Anyone who counted out Brady is a dumbass. He is 43, not 90. Sure the hits hurt more, but that dude knows who he is and what he can and cannot do.
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aggie08

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54 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

Come on, 2007 Pats with Moss, Welker, Stallworth, and Watson is a better receiving group than this Tampa team. The Bucs had very good receivers this year, that team had the 2nd best WR in NFL history in his prime plus a guy who had 112 catches. 

It's probably worth noting when considering whether Brady was "lucky" to win any of those Super Bowls (stupid argument, but whatever) is the 2008 season he missed. That was a really good NE team, Matt Cassel got them to 11 wins. The Steelers team that won it that year was good but certainly beatable. Give the Pats a healthy Brady all season and pretty reasonable chance that he adds another title in '08.

I think NE absolutely wins in '08 if Brady doesn't go down. The defense wasn't quite as good as '07. but all of the key offensive pieces were still there, and Brady's absolute, humiliating ownership of Pittsburgh has been well documented.

But, as you allude to, any "luck" argument is pretty stupid. Football isn't best of 7. Most close games are going to come down to one or two plays, or a bounce. All you can do is continue to put yourself in position to make those one or two plays. Sometimes they go your way (Pete Carroll and Atlanta going brain dead in the 4th quarter), sometimes they don't (Tyree and Welker dropping a game-clinching catch that he makes 99 times out of 100).

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Beantown Express 2.0

Beantown Express 2.0 6555

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58 minutes ago, UncleSonny said:

I gather you are a Tampa fan so you have a homer glasses on but this isn't even close. Objective stats favor the Pats. Subjective all pro teams do too. Moss was 1st team all pro in 07 and Welker was 2nd team. Tampa has... no all-pro pass catchers.

2021 AB isn't close to the same player as he was, you could argue Scotty Miller was better than him this year. 

You can add in that Benjamin Watson was a very good pass catching TE at this point and Kevin Faulk was good receiver out of the backfield as a RB.  The 2007 Patriots offense is the best I have ever seen.  They were flat out dominant except for the game that shall not be named where the Giants had a front four that were able to wreak havoc and even with that it took a dropped INT by Asante Samuel, a Manning in the grasp by 3 players not called and the helmet catch to beat them.  Just wasn't meant to be but that Receiving corp was second to none especially the way they had both Moss and Stallworth that could beat an offense over the top (with Moss being able to get open anywhere on the field) and Welker and Gafney who could work the short and medium routes.  

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Zeus

Zeus 5950

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, smuggs said:

Drama queen nonsense. Post exactly what he said if it was so horrific. Or shut the fuck up and take the loss, pussy.

 

Yep. Same shit that the aggy pulled after he swung a helmet at the Steelers backup. Lies.

 

Donkey Kong Suh was on something I saw earlier interviewing saying TB12 inspired that pass rush. UnFucking real!

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Sandman

Sandman 3402

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, orangecat92 said:

Basketball has Russell.  What 9 rings out of 11 years?  He lost in the finals once I think? So in terms of winning championships he is slightly better than Brady. 

Even better. Russell got 11 titles in 13 years. Fucking insane. Had two in college as well, just for good measure.

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Not a cat

Not a cat 5620

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, Sandman said:

Even better. Russell got 11 titles in 13 years. Fucking insane. Had two in college as well, just for good measure.

To be fair he went to the noted basketball powerhouse University of San Francisco.  I mean, it's kind of like playing at Bama now, everyone is going to get a title just by showing up and putting on that Dons jersey. 

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