Tom Brady Is UnFucking Real

[FondrenRoad 4378]

15 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

For sure. Brady would have been great anywhere, but obviously not to this level, and vice versa. It's a perfect coach-player combination, even if they don't particularly like each other anymore.

For the Belichick/Popovich coaching style--team first, selfless, take less money, no theatrics or distractions, buttoned down and professional--to work, your best player has to completely buy in, be coachable, work the hardest, and never act above the team. I'd say Brady fit that mold.

Brady's perfect for the system. Had Manning played for the Pats, they might have won one, but Manning would try to take over rather than play Belichick's game. It would all fall apart eventually. I also don't know how well Brady would have played under another coach. I don't think nearly as well. 

I'd like to see what Bill can do post Tom, but Tom may outlast Bill at this rate.  

Also, Colt could have wrecked it in Belichick's system. Too late for him now though. 

Edited January 21, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[Richard Kimball 1492]

10 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

For sure. Brady would have been great anywhere, but obviously not to this level, and vice versa. It's a perfect coach-player combination, even if they don't particularly like each other anymore.

For the Belichick/Popovich coaching style--team first, selfless, take less money, no theatrics or distractions, buttoned down and professional--to work, your best player has to completely buy in, be coachable, work the hardest, and never act above the team. I'd say Brady fit that mold.

Not so sure that he would have been great anywhere. Brady was disappointed he wasn't drafted by the 49ers, cause he grew up as a fan, but they've been through nine coaches since he's been in the league. No way a quarterback maintains excellence changing coaching staffs every two years. 

Agree on your other point. Belichick has a theory that there are a few superstars, but a LOT of people who can perform adequately. He also has an uncanny knack for identifying the lunch bucket guys that perform well enough, and he doesn't have any big holes in the roster. He also jettisons players the second they become a distraction. Randy Moss would have a ring if he'd kept his mouth shut. Belichick will not overspend on any position to the detriment of other positions. 

Brady fit into the system, and although most people can't name another player on the Patriots roster, he takes less money than he could, compliments other players in interviews, and is the ultimate team guy. 

[aggie08 21434]

3 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Brady's perfect for the system. Had Manning played for the Pats, they might have won one, but Manning would try to take over rather than play Belichick's game. It would all fall apart eventually. I also don't know how well Brady would have played under another coach. I don't think nearly as well. 

With his work ethic, passion, IQ, accuracy, and leadership qualities, I do think that he would have been great anywhere (...well, maybe not Cleveland). Again, definitely not 5x Super Bowl Champion and 3x MVP great, but great nonetheless.

As soon as he got a chance, he would have capitalized on it. It's not like BB had some great offensive scheme ready and waiting for him. They went 5-11 in 2000 with a pretty damn competent QB in Bledsoe, and started an ugly 0-2 in '01 before Brady took over. I'm not sure they make the playoffs that year with Bledsoe, much less win the Super Bowl. Then they started constructing the offense around Brady's strengths in subsequent seasons, and the rest is history.

[NowThis 931]

7 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

With his work ethic, passion, IQ, accuracy, and leadership qualities, I do think that he would have been great anywhere (...well, maybe not Cleveland). Again, definitely not 5x Super Bowl Champion and 3x MVP great, but great nonetheless.

As soon as he got a chance, he would have capitalized on it. It's not like BB had some great offensive scheme ready and waiting for him. They went 5-11 in 2000 with a pretty damn competent QB in Bledsoe, and started an ugly 0-2 in '01 before Brady took over. I'm not sure they make the playoffs that year with Bledsoe, much less win the Super Bowl. Then they started constructing the offense around Brady's strengths in subsequent seasons, and the rest is history.

and went 13-6 when Brady was hurt/suspended

[Wally Pryor 5244]

From Peter King's column.  This seems pretty crazy, the day of. 

 “We just put in eight new plays in the game plan this morning,” Brady told me. At the team hotel, the Westin Crown Center in Kansas City, the offensive players were greeted at the 11 a.m. meeting with the news that eight new plays were being installed for the game. That happens, but not every week, and not eight plays’ worth. They walked through the plays in a hotel ballroom, then ran four or five of them during the game—all for positive yards.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/01/21/nfl-championship-rams-saints-patriots-chiefs-fmia-peter-king/?cid=nbcsports

[aggie08 21434]

Just now, NowThis said:

and went 13-6 when Brady was hurt/suspended

The Matt Cassel year is one of the most overrated seasons of all time.

They went from the heavy preseason Super Bowl favorites to missing the playoffs because they couldn't beat a team playing large parts of their games with no QB in the division standings.

They lost 5 more games than they did the year prior. 

They beat one team all season that ended the year with a winning record, and got blown the fuck out by the 3 best teams they played. 

Cassel had Moss. Moss has made Gus Frerotte, Jeff George, and Todd Bouman look like All-Pros.

BB and co. did a great job making the most of what, as it turns out, was an awful quarterback. But that year's team was stacked with talent, and not really representative of the typical Patriots' roster during Brady's tenure. Give a Cassel-level QB this year's roster, and see what happens.

[Huckleberry 32702]

You act like the rest of the AFC East wouldn't have still sucked if Brady weren't there.

11-5 with 6 games against that shit show? I think without Brady they still win that division.

[Llano Estacado 1257]

and went 13-6 when Brady was hurt/suspended

 

You also have a whole group of guys who flounder around the NFL getting ridiculous salaries for going (.333-500) as “journeyman” “game-managers” just because Beligod thought they could cover if Brady went down. ETA: The value the Pats always seem to get in trade is remarkable in itself.

 

Garoppolo, Hoyer switcheroo, Cassel, Mallet, Brissett, Huard, (think I’m missing a couple)

 

Bledsoe, Flutie, and Testaverde are exempt.

 

[Bogeywon 2518]

this guy just gets it done. he is the GOAT and Go Blue

[aggie08 21434]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

You act like the rest of the AFC East wouldn't have still sucked if Brady weren't there.

11-5 with 6 games against that shit show? I think without Brady they still win that division.

Maybe. And gotten their ass kicked wild card weekend.

[NowThis 931]

2 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

The Matt Cassel year is one of the most overrated seasons of all time.

They went from the heavy preseason Super Bowl favorites to missing the playoffs because they couldn't beat a team playing large parts of their games with no QB in the division standings.

They lost 5 more games than they did the year prior. 

They beat one team all season that ended the year with a winning record, and got blown the fuck out by the 3 best teams they played. 

Cassel had Moss. Moss has made Gus Frerotte, Jeff George, and Todd Bouman look like All-Pros.

BB and co. did a great job making the most of what, as it turns out, was an awful quarterback. But that year's team was stacked with talent, and not really representative of the typical Patriots' roster during Brady's tenure. Give a Cassel-level QB this year's roster, and see what happens.

yeah, going 11-5 with no Brady after going 16-0 the prior year is a dramatic dropoff. Not to mention they went 10-6 the next year with Moss on the roster.

The system, particularly all day protection from the OL, is the main reason for Tom's success. Sure he's smart and accurate, but he's not the secretariat QB that people think

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

2 hours ago, Al_4_ISU said:

Brady's winning at an unprecedented level, late in life, with a revolving cast of decidedly not HOF skill position guys.

I'm really bored with it, it always looks underwhelming and maddening, but the results are hard to dispute.

This. 

I also think 10-20 years from now (if he isn't still playing) Brady's greatness will be even more accepted and appreciated. Look I get why people hate him but you can't argue with how amazing the run has been.  

[Huckleberry 32702]

4 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Maybe. And gotten their ass kicked wild card weekend.

Just like they got their asses kicked in Pittsburgh in January 2002 when Brady went out.

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

2 minutes ago, NowThis said:

The system, particularly all day protection from the OL, is the main reason for Tom's success. Sure he's smart and accurate, but he's not the secretariat QB that people think

 

This is also true and is an easy take to have. You can say that about every successful team/player/coach.

Montana had Rice,Taylor,Craig

Aikman had Irvin, Emmitt, etc. 

And as you mentioned great OL's

You can make yourself go crazy comparing QB's in all different circumstances or any player for that matter.

 

And it's not just football as we know if Jeter played for the Royals for his entire career he isn't anywhere close to the player that he is because he played for the Yankees.

 

 

[aggie08 21434]

7 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Just like they got their asses kicked in Pittsburgh in January 2002 when Brady went out.

Bledsoe would be pretty damn insulted that you're comparing him to Matt Cassel.

[Wally Pryor 5244]

7 minutes ago, NowThis said:

The system, particularly all day protection from the OL, is the main reason for Tom's success. Sure he's smart and accurate, but he's not the secretariat QB that people think

The Patriots system is a reason for Brady's success, no doubt.  But the primary / main reason?   Not so much.   Just go to those plays Brady made on the final drive, including throws to convert three 3rd and 10s.   In the absolute most pressurized situation, in a hostile atmosphere, with the season on the line when it's nut-cutting time, Brady made plays, and always has made these plays.  Poise, execution and clutch play like we've never seen has very little to do with the Patriots system. 

[NowThis 931]

1 minute ago, Wally Pryor said:

The Patriots system is a reason for Brady's success, no doubt.  But the primary / main reason?   Not so much.   Just go to those plays Brady made on the final drive, including throws to convert three 3rd and 10s.   In the absolute most pressurized situation, in a hostile atmosphere, with the season on the line when it's nut-cutting time, Brady made plays, and always has made these plays.  Poise, execution and clutch play like we've never seen has very little to do with the Patriots system. 

and had all day IIRC for each throw right?

[Spring Branch Horn 124]

Brady threw a pick that would have ended the game except for the offsides

 

[Vic Mackey 46936]

8 hours ago, GreenspointTexas said:

This thread is about 3 years too late

 

dude has been the GOAT for some time now

I made this thread 2 years ago after the Falcons Super Bowl win. On the other board, though.

[Huckleberry 32702]

4 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Bledsoe would be pretty damn insulted that you're comparing him to Matt Cassel.

Bledsoe didn't do much that day (10-21, 102 yards, 1TD - less than 5 YPA is not good). The Patriots were a well coached team, as usual, that played to their strengths and their opponents' weaknesses. They got two special teams touchdowns and they won, which they tend to do.

I'm not arguing that Brady isn't great and the primary player reason for their success both on and off the field. You're just going a little overboard.

[Dennis Taylor 18706]

4 minutes ago, Wally Pryor said:

The Patriots system is a reason for Brady's success, no doubt.  But the primary / main reason?   Not so much.   Just go to those plays Brady made on the final drive, including throws to convert three 3rd and 10s.   In the absolute most pressurized situation, in a hostile atmosphere, with the season on the line when it's nut-cutting time, Brady made plays, and always has made these plays.  Poise, execution and clutch play like we've never seen has very little to do with the Patriots system. 

So what you're saying is Brady is the primary reason for the Patriots system's success 

[Spring Branch Horn 124]

Brady is the greatest of all time  -  Not disputable but none of the Patriots teams would have beat the 49ers, Cowboys, or Steelers Best teams

Edited January 21, 2019 by Spring Branch Horn

[Wally Pryor 5244]

Just now, NowThis said:

and had all day IIRC for each throw right?

He did. The line play was outstanding. 

 

[Vic Mackey 46936]

Edited January 21, 2019 by Vic Mackey

[aggie08 21434]

23 minutes ago, NowThis said:

The system, particularly all day protection from the OL, is the main reason for Tom's success.

Bosa won his offensive line match-up at will last week.  It just didn't matter.

 

[Coelenterate Fuccboi 13010]

Anyone not giving Brady the credit he deserves is more delusional than aggy. Well...

[aggie08 21434]

7 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Bledsoe didn't do much that day (10-21, 102 yards, 1TD - less than 5 YPA is not good). The Patriots were a well coached team, as usual, that played to their strengths and their opponents' weaknesses. They got two special teams touchdowns and they won, which they tend to do.

I'm not arguing that Brady isn't great and the primary player reason for their success both on and off the field. You're just going a little overboard.

I've said repeatedly that he wouldn't have near the accomplishments without winding up on New England with BB.

...but BB probably wouldn't be their coach today without Brady.  Like I said, a perfect player-coach partnership.

Edited January 21, 2019 by aggie08

[smwhorn 481]

16 minutes ago, Spring Branch Horn said:

Brady threw a pick that would have ended the game except for the offsides

 

the ball was tipped by Gronk into the defender's hands.

[FloridaHorn 4735]

13 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Brady is fucking awesome but what does this have to do with him being good? That's his blocking.

No, it's the fact that he gets rid of the ball quicker than anyone who has ever played the game. The Patriots offense is death by a thousand cuts...and Brady is a surgeon.

[Huckleberry 32702]

He actually doesn't, they track that kind of thing.

The quarterback does have a lot to do with that, it was just a really weird thing to pinpoint as to why he's great. Last night the offensive line did a great job and Brady didn't have to hurry many throws. When he did, they got a roughing the passer call. Ha.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Huckleberry

[NowThis 931]

32 minutes ago, aggie08 said:

Bosa won his offensive line match-up at will last week.  It just didn't matter.

 

probably because Bosa was still no where close to Brady and the WRs were wide open. KC had almost no pressure on him.

Titans sacked him 3 times and they got blown out 34-10. 

 

edit:  looked it up.. when Brady has been sacked 2 or more times this regular season, they are 4-4.

Brady has not been sacked this playoffs and the OL protection has improved dramatically since the 3 sack loss to the Titans

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/2330/tom-brady

Edited January 21, 2019 by NowThis

[Vic Mackey 46936]

Curious to see the resources the Pats put into their OL vs a team like the Cowboys who feel the need to dump a ton of resources into that position. And then compare the results...

[Wally Pryor 5244]

Brady will have an interesting decision if he wins his 6th.  The "playing 'til I'm 45" may have some wheels to it but he and Gronkowski are tied at the hip.  And with him likely retiring after this season, with a chance to go out on top and with Giselle continuing to be on his ass to hang it up, he might just well do that. 

They have to win first against the Rams.  If they don't no way in hell he retires. 

 

[J.R. Juniors Junior Jr. 1084]

Sucks to play QB in the AFC and not be one of these 3 guys.. and Flacco?

[52-80 19096]

1 hour ago, Spring Branch Horn said:

Brady threw a pick that would have ended the game except for the offsides

 

I've seen him lose some big games.  Really enjoyed that one shot a few years back of him sitting on his ass, dejected.

 

But way frequent than that, is seeing him in the 4th, down a few points, march his team across the entire field, calmy, steadily, and you get this feeling he's just going to fucking do it (get a winning TD)  And 8 out of 10 times, he fucking does it.

 

And that's what makes him tom Brady.

Edited January 21, 2019 by 52-80

[Richard Kimball 1492]

27 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:

Curious to see the resources the Pats put into their OL vs a team like the Cowboys who feel the need to dump a ton of resources into that position. And then compare the results...

Comes back to identifying talent and then coaching it. Also, one great offensive linemen and four guys named Irv doesn't do you much good. Pats don't have a weak link on their line, and apparently have enough good players to sub when a starter goes out. 

[Braff Zacklin 13420]

38 minutes ago, J.R. Juniors Junior Jr. said:

That is one of the best "which one of these is not like the others?" I've ever seen.

Edited January 21, 2019 by Braff Zacklin

[Richard Kimball 1492]

1 hour ago, Spring Branch Horn said:

Brady threw a pick that would have ended the game except for the offsides

 

It was a free play. QBs will make a more daring play when they know they've got a free five yards at the snap. 

[Vic Mackey 46936]

18 minutes ago, Richard Kimball said:

Comes back to identifying talent and then coaching it. Also, one great offensive linemen and four guys named Irv doesn't do you much good. Pats don't have a weak link on their line, and apparently have enough good players to sub when a starter goes out. 

Right I get that. But do those use 1st round picks on most of their guys? Dallas has 3 first rounders and the other 2 are 2nd rounders. Well this year they had more of a mash unit but I am talking their normal starting 5.

[aggie08 21434]

For the record, Matt Cassel was sacked 47 times during his 15 games in 2008. Tom Brady was sacked 21 times the year preceding that, and 16 times the year following.

So, yeah, who's playing quarterback matters a whole hell of a lot when it comes to protection. Not to say the Patriots o-line hasn't been very good--their schemes are largely excellent--but it helps to have a guy under center who instantly knows what the defense is doing, who's coming from where, who needs to move to combat that, who should be open based on the coverage, and is deceptively mobile and shifty in the pocket when the need arises.

[Wally Pryor 5244]

19 minutes ago, Richard Kimball said:

It was a free play. QBs will make a more daring play when they know they've got a free five yards at the snap. 

I'm probably the biggest Brady homer on this board but he said in his Monday call on WEEI this morning that he was unaware of the flag.  At least he was an honest.   

[Huckleberry 32702]

No kidding.

Now tell me whose offensive line played better in Kansas City last night. As I've said multiple times now, QBs influence sack numbers. But that's not why Brady didn't even get hit last night, terrible roughing call notwithstanding. So it's a really dumb thing to isolate as the reason he is great when there were a dozen things he did more impressively last night than not get hit.

[Richard Kimball 1492]

14 minutes ago, Wally Pryor said:

I'm probably the biggest Brady homer on this board but he said in his Monday call on WEEI this morning that he was unaware of the flag.  At least he was an honest.   

Hadn't heard that. He's more honest than me. 

[Surly Bevo 24696]

The whole coach system/thing is kind of a stupid argument.  Let's look at a list of who might be top QBs all time besides Brady in no particular order who have finished their careers (so excluding guys like Brees who are still playing and still being coached).  Only two guys on this list can't be linked to playing for a HoF head coach and that is Elway and Favre (who I would argue is maybe the bottom of the list).  The two things sort of tend to go together.

Montana-Bill Walsh

Marino-Shula

Manning-Dungy

Staubach-Landry

Bradshaw-Noll

Elway-Reeves

Graham-Brown

Unitas-Ewbak

Favre-Holmgren

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by Surly Bevo

[aggie08 21434]

55 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

No kidding.

Now tell me whose offensive line played better in Kansas City last night. As I've said multiple times now, QBs influence sack numbers. But that's not why Brady didn't even get hit last night, terrible roughing call notwithstanding. So it's a really dumb thing to isolate as the reason he is great when there were a dozen things he did more impressively last night than not get hit.

I wasn't responding to anything you said, and I agree with your point.

More so in response to NowThis's notion that he's standing being a brick wall, heretofore unseen in the NFL that other quarterbacks could only dream of.

[Richard Kimball 1492]

19 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

The whole coach system/thing is kind of a stupid argument.  Let's look at a list of who might be top QBs all time besides Brady in no particular order who have finished their careers (so excluding guys like Brees who are still playing and still being coached).  Only two guys on this list can't be linked to playing for a HoF head coach and that is Elway and Favre (who I would argue is maybe the bottom of the list).  The two things sort of tend to go together.

Montana-Bill Walsh

Marino-Shula

Manning-Dungy

Staubach-Landry

Bradshaw-Noll

Elway-Reeves

Graham-Brown

Unitas-Ewbak

Favre-Holmgren

 

Good point. A little trivia:

Weeb Eubank is the only coach to win NFL championships with two different teams (Colts and Jets.) He also coached two HOF QBs, Unitas and Namath, winning championships with both..

Shula is interesting. He coached three HOF QBs, Unitas, Griese and Marino, but only won championships with Griese, the least heralded of the three. Course, he had Unitas at the end of his career. 

Shula and Landry both had teams that peaked just in time to get raided by the World Football League. The Steelers gelled shortly after the WFL tanked, and didn't lose players, allowing them to keep their core together for their entire run. 

One thing that makes the Belichick-Brady partnership unique, is that they've hung together for going on twenty years, and the only people left from their first Super Bowl win are the owner, Brady, Belichick, I think one trainer, and probably the guy that sweeps the place out. 

[Jiggy-Z 3432]

2 minutes ago, Richard Kimball said:

Good point. A little trivia:

Weeb Eubank is the only coach to win NFL championships with two different teams (Colts and Jets.) He also coached two HOF QBs, Unitas and Namath, winning championships with both..

Shula is interesting. He coached three HOF QBs, Unitas, Griese and Marino, but only won championships with Griese, the least heralded of the three. Course, he had Unitas at the end of his career. 

Shula and Landry both had teams that peaked just in time to get raided by the World Football League. The Steelers gelled shortly after the WFL tanked, and didn't lose players, allowing them to keep their core together for their entire run. 

One thing that makes the Belichick-Brady partnership unique, is that they've hung together for going on twenty years, and the only people left from their first Super Bowl win are the owner, Brady, Belichick, I think one trainer, and probably the guy that sweeps the place out. 

...and although not raided by the WFL, the 1990's Cowboys teams were hit with the new NFL salary cap starting right after the 1992 season, just like everyone else, but they had a young roster that was set.  Not saying that they could have kept it going for 20 years like the Pats but, they could have had at least 3 more titles had they kept that team intact, especially the defense.

[Richard Kimball 1492]

3 minutes ago, Jiggy-Z said:

...and although not raided by the WFL, the 1990's Cowboys teams were hit with the new NFL salary cap starting right after the 1992 season, just like everyone else, but they had a young roster that was set.  Not saying that they could have kept it going for 20 years like the Pats but, they could have had at least 3 more titles had they kept that team intact, especially the defense.

Salary cap was a factor, but dumping Johnson and getting Barry Switzer was the killing stroke. Johnson would have won four straight, cause he whipped Seifert every time they played, and Seifert took out Switzer every time they played. Only reason the Cowboys made it in 95 was cause the Packers took out the 49ers. 

Switzer was also the one letting players come in hung over and spreading rumors about Aikman. Guy was a cancer on the team. They won that third Super Bowl in spite of him. 

[DCA_HORN 725]

...and although not raided by the WFL, the 1990's Cowboys teams were hit with the new NFL salary cap starting right after the 1992 season, just like everyone else, but they had a young roster that was set.  Not saying that they could have kept it going for 20 years like the Pats but, they could have had at least 3 more titles had they kept that team intact, especially the defense.

The cowboys also should never have had that core group together. That trade was ridiculous.

[Vic Mackey 46936]

I'm probably the biggest Brady homer on this board but he said in his Monday call on WEEI this morning that he was unaware of the flag.  At least he was an honest.   

They didn't show the graphic for the flag until the KC player picked it off. I had no idea either