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Tom Brady Is UnFucking Real

Vic Mackey

By Vic Mackey
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Brady is the best in the history of the game but walks around the locker room like he's a water boy. Stories and stories are documented him in Julys past of him going around to free agents introd

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Bone3421

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The fact that everyone thinks you cant discuss it is insane...yall have 1 point and you keep banging it over your heads 6>4 but ignore the differences or points that make it a discussion

Joe has the highest qb rating in SB's at 127 for career....i dont know what Tom's is because list only shows top 10

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HoustonFrog

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Joe also has 2nd best rated game behind simms immortal game and the 8th best rated...tom not on top 10 again

Joe throws 2.75 td's per SB
Tom throws 2 td's per SB

Joe is tied if not ahead


How many SBs did Montana play in? How many did he win?

Not to mention Brady has a ridiculous lead on total passing yards, TDs, etc.

This has become the easiest and least debated GOAT discussion of the three major American sports.


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Vic Mackey

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2 minutes ago, ATLLonghorn said:

Pretty amazing how little anyone cares about nuance when the conversation is about Brady vs Montana when all last night proved was that Belichick is the greatest coach in football history.

(Brady is the GOAT, by the way)

The same coach who lost a game where Brady throws over 500 last year against the Eagles? Both of them are great.

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ztejas

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13 minutes ago, HoustonFrog said:

 


How many SBs did Montana play in? How many did he win?

Not to mention Brady has a ridiculous lead on total passing yards, TDs, etc.

This has become the easiest and least debated GOAT discussion of the three major American sports.


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The only GOAT discussion is between Brady and Joe Montana's best teammate, not Montana himself. 

And even then it's probably not much of a discussion due to the position that each of them played/plays. 

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TommyGufano

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2 hours ago, Vic Mackey said:

I know this is probably satire or hope it is but isn't the object of football to throw to the most open and easiest target available? Does he want Brady to gun it down field into double coverage.

And I get this has been a running thing for awhile now with these videos.

Of course it isn't a criticism that he picks the open target. It's just commentary that the situation and circumstance for him to succeed is a lower degree of difficulty than many QBs. He's in a fantastic system with the greatest coach in the history of the sport.

I feel like what one voice in this thread is mostly failing to communicate is an idea that is sort of along these lines: What if Brady was drafted by the Cleveland Browns and had 0 Super Bowl wins as a consequence. Would everyone in this thread who turns into the heart eyes emoji at the mention of his Super Bowls think he was a worse player for it? Or would they be analyzing a team game at a level that allows for evaluation/assessment/criticism of players, independent of team circumstance, that would recognize that Hypothetical Cleveland Browns Tom Brady is the same guy as New England Patriots Tom Brady? It seems like it's the former.

To my eyes, Brady is the third best QB to come along since 1998 (that's a very high compliment, for the record). Now everyone can tell me I'm a moron for holding that opinion. Most accomplished quarterback? Without a fucking question. Greatest? Not for me.

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Bone3421

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How many SBs did Montana play in? How many did he win?

Not to mention Brady has a ridiculous lead on total passing yards, TDs, etc.

This has become the easiest and least debated GOAT discussion of the three major American sports.


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Quantity isnt quality...your logic is the ones people use say how great andy Pettitte
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Bone3421

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Of course it isn't a criticism that he picks the open target. It's just commentary that the situation and circumstance for him to succeed is a lower degree of difficulty than many QBs. He's in a fantastic system with the greatest coach in the history of the sport.
I feel like what one voice in this thread is mostly failing to communicate is an idea that is sort of along these lines: What if Brady was drafted by the Cleveland Browns and had 0 Super Bowl wins as a consequence. Would everyone in this thread who turns into the heart eyes emoji at the mention of his Super Bowls think he was a worse player for it? Or would they be analyzing a team game at a level that allows for evaluation/assessment/criticism of players, independent of team circumstance, that would recognize that Hypothetical Cleveland Browns Tom Brady is the same guy as New England Patriots Tom Brady? It seems like it's the former.
To my eyes, Brady is the third best QB to come along since 1998 (that's a very high compliment, for the record). Now everyone can tell me I'm a moron for holding that opinion. Most accomplished quarterback? Without a fucking question. Greatest? Not for me.
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BurntOrange&White

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Of course it isn't a criticism that he picks the open target. It's just commentary that the situation and circumstance for him to succeed is a lower degree of difficulty than many QBs. He's in a fantastic system with the greatest coach in the history of the sport.
I feel like what one voice in this thread is mostly failing to communicate is an idea that is sort of along these lines: What if Brady was drafted by the Cleveland Browns and had 0 Super Bowl wins as a consequence. Would everyone in this thread who turns into the heart eyes emoji at the mention of his Super Bowls think he was a worse player for it? Or would they be analyzing a team game at a level that allows for evaluation/assessment/criticism of players, independent of team circumstance, that would recognize that Hypothetical Cleveland Browns Tom Brady is the same guy as New England Patriots Tom Brady? It seems like it's the former.
To my eyes, Brady is the third best QB to come along since 1998 (that's a very high compliment, for the record). Now everyone can tell me I'm a moron for holding that opinion. Most accomplished quarterback? Without a fucking question. Greatest? Not for me.

Create a strawman hypothetical situation to create an argument that doesn’t exist. These guys are open because of checks Brady does at the LoS. But those aren’t features in the video.
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BonzoMontreaux

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I'm a Montana guy at heart.  He played during a time when folks could still get in some good licks on quarterbacks that are not legal now.  He certainly had the benefit of playing under Bill Walsh too.  In addition to that, during that run in the 80s only 5 players ended up with rings from all 4 wins.  Jerry Rice was NOT one of them, btw.

All that being said, I have no issue with Brady being called or just being the GOAT.  The run him and Belichek have put together is something that we will never be seen again, imo.  Dude is in his 40s and still getting it done.  Legendary AF.  Belichek in his 60s still punking all comers when the money is on the line too.

 

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Vic Mackey

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17 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

Of course it isn't a criticism that he picks the open target. It's just commentary that the situation and circumstance for him to succeed is a lower degree of difficulty than many QBs. He's in a fantastic system with the greatest coach in the history of the sport.

I feel like what one voice in this thread is mostly failing to communicate is an idea that is sort of along these lines: What if Brady was drafted by the Cleveland Browns and had 0 Super Bowl wins as a consequence. Would everyone in this thread who turns into the heart eyes emoji at the mention of his Super Bowls think he was a worse player for it? Or would they be analyzing a team game at a level that allows for evaluation/assessment/criticism of players, independent of team circumstance, that would recognize that Hypothetical Cleveland Browns Tom Brady is the same guy as New England Patriots Tom Brady? It seems like it's the former.

To my eyes, Brady is the third best QB to come along since 1998 (that's a very high compliment, for the record). Now everyone can tell me I'm a moron for holding that opinion. Most accomplished quarterback? Without a fucking question. Greatest? Not for me.

Ok so now we are playing the hypothetical game? What is Brady was not drafted by the Pats and Belichek bounced around the league. Are you still calling him the greatest ever? No. Why are you telling me Bill is the greatest ever but then minimize Brady. Stop contradicting yourself when you are digging these holes to try and minimize Brady's talent. Bill and Brady go together. We don't know what Brady would be without Bill. We do know what Bill was without Brady. And it wasn't this. So care to explain that?

And you honestly think Brady is just some cog in Bill's system and doesn't actually study film or make adjustments at the line himself. Bill is a defensive coach first.

Montana played for Bill Walsh and had stacked teams around him. We going to minimize that as well?

And in today's game, I can bring up videos just like this dorky one posted of guys running free all game long. Every team gets that benefit because of how slanted the rules are for offense. The percentage rates QB complete these days are the highest it's ever been I'd assume. You honestly think Brady is the only QB who gets this benefit. No fucking way. Goff had open WRs yesterday and he missed them both. One in the endzone for an easy TD and on 2nd and 20, a WR was wide fucking open in the middle and if he hits him, he might have damn near scored.

You guys are all over the place with these arguments. Trying desperately to minimize Brady.

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aggie08

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1 hour ago, ATLLonghorn said:

Pretty amazing how little anyone cares about nuance when the conversation is about Brady vs Montana when all last night proved was that Belichick is the greatest coach in football history.

(Brady is the GOAT, by the way)

I think it's largely because, whatever little debate there is about Brady, there's absolutely none about Belichick. That's been decided for some time now. The only "debate" left is is he the greatest coach in the history in any sport.

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TommyGufano

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1 minute ago, Vic Mackey said:

Ok so now we are playing the hypothetical game? What is Brady was not drafted by the Pats and Belichek bounced around the league. Are you still calling him the greatest ever? No. Why are you telling me Bill is the greatest ever but then minimize Brady. Stop contradicting yourself when you are digging these holes to try and minimize Brady's talent. Bill and Brady go together. We don't know what Brady would be without Bill. We do know what Bill was without Brady. And it wasn't this. So care to explain that?

And you honestly think Brady is just some cog in Bill's system and doesn't actually study film or make adjustments at the line himself. Bill is a defensive coach first.

Montana played for Bill Walsh and had stacked teams around him. We going to minimize that as well?

And in today's game, I can bring up videos just like this dorky one posted of guys running free all game long. Every team gets that benefit because of how slanted the rules are for offense. The percentage rates QB complete these days are the highest it's ever been I'd assume. You honestly think Brady is the only QB who gets this benefit. No fucking way. Goff had open WRs yesterday and he missed them both. One in the endzone for an easy TD and on 2nd and 20, a WR was wide fucking open in the middle and if he hits him, he might have damn near scored.

You guys are all over the place with these arguments. Trying desperately to minimize Brady.

I mean, the first SB win the defense effectively scored as many pts as the offense (pick-6 plus a turnover sets up 14-yd drive to set up FG). Best offense in league is held to 17 and Brady threw for 145. So I feel pretty strongly that BB would have been just fine. Do I think he wins 6 SBs w/o TB? Nope.

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Vic Mackey

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1 minute ago, aggie08 said:

I think it's largely because, whatever little debate there is about Brady, there's absolutely none about Belichick. That's been decided for some time now. The only "debate" left is is he the greatest coach in the history in any sport.

But neither Bill nor Brady have won Super Bowls without each other. I get Bill as a coordinator but I am talking about at the top of their profession. Head coach. If there is debate about one, then why not the other? Honestly, I don't think there is any about Brady. No QB is ahead of him. 

In terms of all sports, though, I don't know about that. You have Phil Jackson, Lombardi John Wooden, Bear Bryant, Nick Saban, Paul Brown. Popovich is up there. Red Auerbach.

But if that is your competition, then you are one of the best ever of any sport.

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aggie08

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26 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

Of course it isn't a criticism that he picks the open target. It's just commentary that the situation and circumstance for him to succeed is a lower degree of difficulty than many QBs. He's in a fantastic system with the greatest coach in the history of the sport.

I feel like what one voice in this thread is mostly failing to communicate is an idea that is sort of along these lines: What if Brady was drafted by the Cleveland Browns and had 0 Super Bowl wins as a consequence. Would everyone in this thread who turns into the heart eyes emoji at the mention of his Super Bowls think he was a worse player for it? Or would they be analyzing a team game at a level that allows for evaluation/assessment/criticism of players, independent of team circumstance, that would recognize that Hypothetical Cleveland Browns Tom Brady is the same guy as New England Patriots Tom Brady? It seems like it's the former.

To my eyes, Brady is the third best QB to come along since 1998 (that's a very high compliment, for the record). Now everyone can tell me I'm a moron for holding that opinion. Most accomplished quarterback? Without a fucking question. Greatest? Not for me.

You would think that, if there existed a system that allows a very good quarterback to make low difficulty throws all the way down the field--regardless of who's catching the passes--in the biggest of moments routinely, more teams would run it. Weird.

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Vic Mackey

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2 minutes ago, TommyGufano said:

I mean, the first SB win the defense effectively scored as many pts as the offense (pick-6 plus a turnover sets up 14-yd drive to set up FG). Best offense in league is held to 17 and Brady threw for 145. So I feel pretty strongly that BB would have been just fine. Do I think he wins 6 SBs w/o TB? Nope.

You can't do that, though. Because Brady led them there the whole season. Well most of it. Would they have even been there had Brady not been QB? Who knows. Again, all hypothetical that no one can answer.

I am not denying Bill is a great defensive coach. Maybe the best ever. But Bill and Brady go together. You can't praise one and not the other. Can't criticize one and not the other.

Like last year, Bill's defense lets Foles and Pederson take him to school while Brady gets a loss throwing for over 500. It happens. 

While Brady didn't have great stats in that game, he still made a hell of a throw to Troy Brown for a TD to give them a 2 score lead and led them on the final drive to win it. He makes the plays when he has to. Most QBs can't say that.

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aggie08

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1 minute ago, Vic Mackey said:

But neither Bill nor Brady have won Super Bowls without each other. I get Bill as a coordinator but I am talking about at the top of their profession. Head coach. If there is debate about one, then why not the other? Honestly, I don't think there is any about Brady. No QB is ahead of him. 

In terms of all sports, though, I don't know about that. You have Phil Jackson, Lombardi John Wooden, Bear Bryant, Nick Saban, Paul Brown. Popovich is up there. Red Auerbach.

But if that is your competition, then you are one of the best ever of any sport.

You're preaching to the choir. Neither Brady or BB would be what they are without the other, though both still would have been great. BB is too damn smart to have not caught on somewhere, it just might not have been New England, judging by how his year plus with Bledsoe was going. Just like Pop needed Duncan, BB needed Brady (or someone very similar). You can't just walk into any locker room and impart what we now know as Patriots' culture. You need skins on the wall, and a one-of-a-kind, humble, coachable superstar. Brady very quickly gave him that, and allowed the culture to take hold.

And Brady, without BB, is still 6'4" 225 with an accurate and precise arm in any conditions, incredibly driven with a massive chip on his shoulder, deceptively shifty, and as intelligent as any quarterback who has ever played.

...I think he would have been okay.

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wild_turkey

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1 hour ago, TommyGufano said:

What if Brady was drafted by the Cleveland Browns and had 0 Super Bowl wins as a consequence. Would everyone in this thread who turns into the heart eyes emoji at the mention of his Super Bowls think he was a worse player for it? Or would they be analyzing a team game at a level that allows for evaluation/assessment/criticism of players, independent of team circumstance, that would recognize that Hypothetical Cleveland Browns Tom Brady is the same guy as New England Patriots Tom Brady? It seems like it's the former.

What if Michael Jordan spent his career with the LA Clippers and didn't have Phil Jackson as a coach, or teammates like Pippen and Rodman?

When you look at the athletes who are in the GOAT discussion within their sport, all of them had the benefit of a strong supporting cast. These are team sports. No matter how great an individual athlete, you don't win championships in team sports without good players and coaches around you.

Maybe some of that is good luck on where someone gets drafted but that's how it works. Brady got the benefit of playing his career under Belichick, but Belichick got the benefit of having Tom Brady as his starting QB for 17 seasons.

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Huckleberry

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9 minutes ago, wild_turkey said:

What if Michael Jordan spent his career with the LA Clippers and didn't have Phil Jackson as a coach, or teammates like Pippen and Rodman?

When you look at the athletes who are in the GOAT discussion within their sport, all of them had the benefit of a strong supporting cast. These are team sports. No matter how great an individual athlete, you don't win championships in team sports without good players and coaches around you.

Maybe some of that is good luck on where someone gets drafted but that's how it works. Brady got the benefit of playing his career under Belichick, but Belichick got the benefit of having Tom Brady as his starting QB for 17 seasons.

Pretty sure that's the entire point of the dissent here. There's no denying that it is that way, the point is that it shouldn't be that way.

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Vic Mackey

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43 minutes ago, Bone3421 said:
1 hour ago, shnsajax said:
Two catches are the reasons why Brady doesn't have 7 or 8 and someone wants to question him being the goat?
Spoiler tyree-manningham-super-bowl-catches.jpg
 

Read more  

And 2 missed fg away from having 2 less wins...and 1 defensive int from having another loss

Who was the QB who made Vinateri relevant ? Oh that's right...But yeah, it was all field goals. Never mind the actual drive to get them down there to begin with, starting with his first ring in 2001. 

Also, how do you know those would have been losses? It was tie game. You have no idea how the game plays after seeing they go into OT. Keep on digging your hole...

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TommyGufano

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3 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Pretty sure that's the entire point of the dissent here. There's no denying that it is that way, the point is that it shouldn't be that way.

Gracias.

Conflating team success and individual greatness is simple-minded analysis. I'm not saying TB stinks. I'm not saying he's bad. I'm saying he's excellent. I'm also saying the degree of success he has experienced is in (considerable) part due to circumstance

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Bone3421

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Who was the QB who made Vinateri relevant ? Oh that's right...But yeah, it was all field goals. Never mind the actual drive to get them down there to begin with, starting with his first ring in 2001. 
Also, how do you know those would have been losses? It was tie game. You have no idea how the game plays after seeing they go into OT. Keep on digging your hole...
Lol ...so mad over others people convo

He made dumb argument about plays that happened and made dumb argument about plays that happened

I dont need what ifs for my argument ive given the stats and my opinion of eras
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Huckleberry

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Who here thinks Troy Aikman was the best QB of the '90s? He's not even deserving of being in the discussion. And I say that as someone who was a huge fan back then.

There are a lot of reasons to argue that Brady is the greatest QB ever. It's just that "six rings" isn't the argument ender that some people want it to be.

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aggie08

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23 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Who here thinks Troy Aikman was the best QB of the '90s? He's not even deserving of being in the discussion. And I say that as someone who was a huge fan back then.

There are a lot of reasons to argue that Brady is the greatest QB ever. It's just that "six rings" isn't the argument ender that some people want it to be.

Troy Aikman doesn't have multiple regular season MVPs, record setting offensive seasons, both individually and as a team, an undefeated season, the most game winning drives in playoff history, 30TDs/12INTs in his last 14 playoff games that include 4 Super Bowl appearances as he approached and entered his 40's, etc., etc., etc.

No one anywhere is using six rings exclusively as an argument ender...combined with all the things above though, and it probably is.

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Huckleberry

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Troy Aikman doesn't have multiple regular season MVPs, record setting offensive seasons, both individually and as a team, an undefeated season, the most game winning drives in playoff history, 30TDs/12INTs in his last 14 playoff games that include 4 Super Bowl appearances as he approached and entered his 40's, etc., etc., etc.


That's pretty obviously my point.

No one anywhere is using six rings exclusively as an argument ender...combined with all the things above though, and it probably is.


You must have these guys on ignore:
Nuff said
Brady naysayers are just jealous as hell knowing Tom would be celebrating with Gisele,  while the were celebrating with their hand.
Sums it up.  He’s GOAT.
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Bone3421

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Troy Aikman doesn't have multiple regular season MVPs, record setting offensive seasons, both individually and as a team, an undefeated season, the most game winning drives in playoff history, 30TDs/12INTs in his last 14 playoff games that include 4 Super Bowl appearances as he approached and entered his 40's, etc., etc., etc.
No one anywhere is using six rings exclusively as an argument ender...combined with all the things above though, and it probably is.
Wonder how marino,elways,joes,moon, etc...numbers would look in todays offensive game
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aggie08

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10 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

You must have these guys on ignore:

 

Are you saying that you think that those guys would still be making lewd, matter-of-fact GOAT proclamations if Brady had 6 rings but individual accolades comparable to, say, Eli Manning?

Of course they wouldn't. Of course it's a combination of things.

What are you getting at? Tom Brady has individual success that rivals anyone who has ever played, but you'd prefer that people not take into account the team success--that dwarfs everyone else by miles--as their "tiebreaker"?

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GhostOfTomJoad

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5 minutes ago, Bone3421 said:

Wonder how marino,elways,joes,moon, etc...numbers would look in todays offensive game

They'd likely all have greater statistics. But that doesn't mean they'd have more playoff or SB wins.

Elway, had he won another SB in his early years before winning b2b at 37-38 then retiring, would be the only other QB that might be able to stand in the same room as Brady and Montana. 

I think the reason why you hear so many former players & coaches call Brady the GOAT is because they know just how unbelievably hard it is for a QB to last this long in the league. And most of that is the mental part. The grind. It never stops for Brady. What other QB has had both the desire to play this long AND the hunger to not only train like a 3rd stringer fighting for his job, but to continually put the team above all else? 

There are plenty of QBs with stronger arms, better legs, quicker releases, etc. He's certainly one of--if not the--best at reading defenses. What makes him different is the drive never ending desire to win. BB rides him harder than any player on the team. Because they both know what example that sets to the other 55 guys in the locker room. What other QB with anywhere near Brady's level of success would not only accept but embrace the part of whipping boy in order to motivate the rest of the team? Brees is probably the only old guy who works as hard as Brady & willingness to do all of the little things. He's chasing that elusive 2nd ring.

Rodgers? Please. Big Ben? He's been playing the Drama Queen role for the past 5 years.

Manning limped to the finish line because he had all of the stats & only one ring. He got his 2nd due to an historically great defense. And he was almost a deterrent to their ability to win the game (remember the "should Osweiller start" chirping?) Favre tried the same thing but ended up Favre-ing it up as only he could in the NFC Championship game against the Saints (as a Vikings fan, I remember it all too well).

Everybody outside of New England hates him. And he doesn't give a shit. He just wants to win. And that's why he'll be back in the training room next week, eating a diet that no one on earth can possibly like, putting up with the monotony & drudgery, & trying to figure out what he can do to win it all next year.

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Bone3421

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They'd likely all have greater statistics. But that doesn't mean they'd have more playoff or SB wins.
Elway, had he won another SB in his early years before winning b2b at 37-38 then retiring, would be the only other QB that might be able to stand in the same room as Brady and Montana. 
I think the reason why you hear so many former players & coaches call Brady the GOAT is because they know just how unbelievably hard it is for a QB to last this long in the league. And most of that is the mental part. The grind. It never stops for Brady. What other QB has had both the desire to play this long AND the hunger to not only train like a 3rd stringer fighting for his job, but to continually put the team above all else? 
There are plenty of QBs with stronger arms, better legs, quicker releases, etc. He's certainly one of--if not the--best at reading defenses. What makes him different is the drive never ending desire to win. BB rides him harder than any player on the team. Because they both know what example that sets to the other 55 guys in the locker room. What other QB with anywhere near Brady's level of success would not only accept but embrace the part of whipping boy in order to motivate the rest of the team? Brees is probably the only old guy who works as hard as Brady & willingness to do all of the little things. He's chasing that elusive 2nd ring.
Rodgers? Please. Big Ben? He's been playing the Drama Queen role for the past 5 years.
Manning limped to the finish line because he had all of the stats & only one ring. He got his 2nd due to an historically great defense. And he was almost a deterrent to their ability to win the game (remember the "should Osweiller start" chirping?) Favre tried the same thing but ended up Favre-ing it up as only he could in the NFC Championship game against the Saints (as a Vikings fan, I remember it all too well).
Everybody outside of New England hates him. And he doesn't give a shit. He just wants to win. And that's why he'll be back in the training room next week, eating a diet that no one on earth can possibly like, putting up with the monotony & drudgery, & trying to figure out what he can do to win it all next year.
True...he works hard from the stories but some of that longevity is due to rule changes and protecting qb that earlier guys didnt get
Brady is great...and plays on the best teams in era
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Bone3421

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Who cares? No one can substantiate any of this. Would Marino magically figure out how to win? Same goes for Moon.
Well the person i quoted thought it was good that brady threw for a lot of yards and td's ...just wonder how some of the greats from earlier era's would have faired with easier rules
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Huckleberry

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1 hour ago, aggie08 said:

Are you saying that you think that those guys would still be making lewd, matter-of-fact GOAT proclamations if Brady had 6 rings but individual accolades comparable to, say, Eli Manning?

Of course they wouldn't. Of course it's a combination of things.

What are you getting at? Tom Brady has individual success that rivals anyone who has ever played, but you'd prefer that people not take into account the team success--that dwarfs everyone else by miles--as their "tiebreaker"?

They literally quoted just the Super Bowl accomplishments and then said "enough said." Now you are assuming all kinds of other aspects of their argument, which they didn't post or say, just so you can argue that nobody said "enough said." And yet you are accusing me of putting words in other people's mouths.

And then you follow that up in your last paragraph by positing some weird position you think I might have that is nothing close to reality. That is borderline insane considering you started this little sidebar with me by essentially accusing me of using a straw man. Let's recap.

1. I saw Brady is awesome, but winning 6 Super Bowls isn't an argument ender like some people want it to be.
2. You say nobody is saying that.
3. I post verbatim quotes of two people saying that.
4. You claim that they're not really saying that but they're really saying something else.
5. You then follow up by asking if I'm saying something that I'm not saying.

You're as maniacal about this conversation as you accuse Bone3421 of being.

Edited by Huckleberry
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aggie08

aggie08 21434

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1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

They literally quoted just the Super Bowl accomplishments and then said "enough said." Now you are assuming all kinds of other aspects of their argument, which they didn't post or say, just so you can argue that nobody said "enough said." And yet you are accusing me of putting words in other people's mouths.

 

I'm just trying to understand what point you're making.  I'm not even one of the people saying that Tom Brady is the GOAT, no argument. I think he is...but there's always an argument for everything.  I've acknowledged many, many, many times how lucky he was to wind up with Belichick, how many "lucky" breaks he's gotten throughout his career, the quality of the teams (well, at least the quality of the gameplan) around him, etc.  So what?

Are we not allowed to declare a GOAT without first stating that we don't know all the variables because we'll never be able to know how so-and-so would have done in the same situation?How would you go about making a GOAT argument in any sport if not pointing out individual achievements that compare favorably with anyone's, with the "argument ender" of having unmatched and historic team success (and largely great individual performances within that success)?

9 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

You're as maniacal about this conversation as you accuse Bone3421 of being.

There's no need for hyperbole.

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