Best American Songwriter?

[Rimbo 27027]

5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Yes, that's what I alluded to above.  A lyric is essential.  Some would say a "sung" lyric.  I'm not sure I agree, I mean Lou Reed *tries* to sing, but he's not all that good at it.  Does that make him a lesser songwriter than Dre?

For me, there must be words in the composition to make it a song.  In no way does that mean we're only talking about "best lyricist". 

I mean, how you sing the song is how good of a performer you are. In my mind, that has nothing to do with songwriting. So no, sucking at singing just means you suck at singing. They can't all be Sting.

Quote

It means we're talking about "best at combining words and music", which obviously leads to a wide range of emphasis.

I put that line is somewhere between a lyric sheet with the chord changes written over it and a full score -- inclusive of the former, but stopping somewhere before the latter, because once you assign instruments to each staff, you've run past songwriting into arranging, and into composition by including all the notes.

[jimmyjazz 47205]

By "wide range of emphasis" I meant to imply that some songwriters are better at words, some at melody, and even some at harmonic progression (think Nirvana).  I don't really know how to compare Sting to John Prine to Kurt Cobain except by using the final "emotional resonance" meter. 

[ztejas 44227]

On 2/5/2023 at 2:03 PM, Rimbo said:

So, I hated "Voices Carry" when I first heard it, because Aimee's singing ain't what you'd call pleasing to the ear (or even in tune) on it, and New Wave was gettin'old by then.

But years later it's still in my regular 80s rotation, because it is actually a really well written song.

Only this past week I finally l looked at the lyrics and saw what they were about, and realized they weren't what I thought they were about at all. Swap genders and it's suddenly very relatable. (Hey Erin, if you're out there, fuck yourself with a rusty machete, kay?)

 

also: to me, "good songwriting" also includes melody and chords

Interesting bump. 

That's one of my favorite songs of all time. 

(and her singing on the chorus is phenomenal...)

Edited February 9, 2023 by ztejas

[jimmyjazz 47205]

Aimee Mann is an interesting case study in the long road to "fame".  She probably had her biggest hit when she was in 'Til Tuesday, but her status as a songwriter was slowly cemented in the next couple of decades with a series of "oh yeah I know that song" singles and albums.  The film "Magnolia" was written off her songs, and finally seemed to put her in the general public's eye, even though she had been a master tunesmith for almost two decades when it came out.

I came around to her with her first solo LP "Whatever", and I've been a fan ever since.  She has one of those iconic ways with word and melody that is unmistakable.  I always admire someone who can use the same 12 notes and create something with a unique fingerprint, like Westerberg, Elliott Smith, and that twat from Death Cab.

[Rimbo 27027]

1 hour ago, ztejas said:

(and her singing on the chorus is phenomenal...)

Absolutely true. Which just makes the verse singing all the worse. I mean c'mon, this is a song about being the other woman in a relationship... why are you making it into a... whatever that is.

5 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Aimee Mann is an interesting case study in the long road to "fame".  She probably had her biggest hit when she was in 'Til Tuesday, but her status as a songwriter was slowly cemented in the next couple of decades with a series of "oh yeah I know that song" singles and albums.  The film "Magnolia" was written off her songs, and finally seemed to put her in the general public's eye, even though she had been a master tunesmith for almost two decades when it came out.

I came around to her with her first solo LP "Whatever", and I've been a fan ever since.  She has one of those iconic ways with word and melody that is unmistakable.  I always admire someone who can use the same 12 notes and create something with a unique fingerprint, like Westerberg, Elliott Smith, and that twat from Death Cab.

I didn't really come around to her until she gave up a toe to try and con Jeffrey Lebowski out of some money.

In all seriousness, you're right. And I think it's all those other aspects of music that are more or less lacking that are to blame. If you were to take her songwriting and couple it with, say, someone like Glen Ballard or Ted Templeman...

Edited February 9, 2023 by Rimbo

[jimmyjazz 47205]

9 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Absolutely true. Which just makes the verse singing all the worse. I mean c'mon, this is a song about being the other woman in a relationship... why are you making it into a... whatever that is.

I don't see her vocal performance that way at all.  She's in half-voice in the first verse, frightened.  The rest of the song builds, and she has plenty of cracks and sharp notes to go around there, too.  She's not a great singer.  She has a super interesting voice, but she's kinda like Springsteen, she's mostly there but every once in awhile, oops.

[ztejas 44227]

13 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

and that twat from Death Cab.

Ben Gibbard. Moving on...

8 minutes ago, Rimbo said:

Absolutely true. Which just makes the verse singing all the worse. I mean c'mon, this is a song about being the other woman in a relationship... why are you making it into a... whatever that is.

I mean it's stylistic for the time. And I don't hate it. It's very punk rock, which is why I think I like the track as much as I do. It's distinct from a lot of other stuff from the same time period. 

[G650 14437]

Aimee Mann's performance in Voices Carry is an all time great. Just phenomenal.

 

She from just up the road from me in Richmond btw.

[jimmyjazz 47205]

I would also point out it was almost impossible to autotune back in the late 70's early 80's.  There were some tricks they did with vocoders, but nothing like the algorithms we have now.

I can still say I have proudly never -- as in not once -- tuned a track.  I've slipped a few things around in time, but that's it.

[jimmyjazz 47205]

Oh, and while we're talking about great American songwriters who happen to be female:

Kim Richey

Shawn Colvin

[Underdog 29191]

11 hours ago, ztejas said:

Interesting bump. 

That's one of my favorite songs of all time. 

(and her singing on the chorus is phenomenal...)

Big fan of the song myself, this hooks you pretty quickly, imo... 

I'm in the dark, I'd like to read his mind
But I'm frightened of the things I might find

[Underdog 29191]

Burt Bacharach passed away at 94, pretty good songwriter himself. 

[ztejas 44227]

One of the best Portlandia gags was Aimee Mann being their housekeeper. 

[G650 14437]

32 minutes ago, Underdog said:

Burt Bacharach passed away at 94, pretty good songwriter himself. 

Well shit

[hullabelew 3730]

I LOVE this song with Aimee Mann and Ted Leo.  

https://www.google.com/search?q=milwaukee+song+aimee+mann&safe=active&ssui=on

and this is a GREAT live version.   
Aimee:  I made a mistake
Ted:  "Yeah, by starting this band"

 

[jimmyjazz 47205]

The vibraphone is awesome.

[Al_4_ISU 12623]

15 hours ago, baboso said:

Rimbo getting us back on track.  Gracias.

James McMurtry has to get my vote.  Consider:

Flatter than a tabletop
Makes you wonder why they stopped here
Wagon must have lost a wheel or they lacked ambition one
On the great migration west
Separated from the rest
Though they might have tried their best
They never caught the sun
So they sunk some roots down in the dirt
To keep from blowin' off the earth
Built a town around here
And when the dust had all but cleared
They called it Levelland, the pride of man
In Levelland

 

And,

 

Your father always held his ground
He never liked you hanging round with the lesser kind
He suffered not the weak
And he was never loath to speak his twisted mind.

He liked to watch an evening pass
Clinking the ice in his bourbon glass while you played your scales
With eyes that burned right through
He would say he always knew you were bound to fail.

 

And,

 

Ruth-Anne and Lynn, they wear them cut-off britches
And then skinny little halters and they're second cousins to me
Man, I dont care, I want to get between them
With a great big 'ol hard-on
Like an ol' Bodark fencepost
That you can hang a pipe rail gate from
Do some sister twisters till the cows come home
And we'll be having us a time

How does one even start with that man.

[jimmyjazz 47205]

9 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

How does one even start with that man.

I wonder if the lyrical facility is just genetic or if Larry McMurtry actually worked with James on his schoolwork, writing, etc.?  

I mean, we always hear about the "coach's kid" who makes it to the NFL (Shanahan, etc.).  Usually they spend a crap ton of time with Dad working on skills, film, whatever.  Did Larry coach James?

[G650 14437]

I didn't see them mentioned, and it's multiple people, but Holland Dozier Holland are basically 1B to Dylan.

Edited February 9, 2023 by G650

[Al_4_ISU 12623]

19 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

I wonder if the lyrical facility is just genetic or if Larry McMurtry actually worked with James on his schoolwork, writing, etc.?  

I mean, we always hear about the "coach's kid" who makes it to the NFL (Shanahan, etc.).  Usually they spend a crap ton of time with Dad working on skills, film, whatever.  Did Larry coach James?

I've gathered (from interviews with both) that Larry tried to push him away from being a writer, and encouraged other arts like music and acting (Larry bought him a guitar when he was young) but I think there's just such a strong genetic hardwiring that the writing came out in there.  I do think Larry talked a lot of shop and was pretty open with his beliefs on how to write.   So I don't know that James was coached by Larry to be a great writer so much as it was impossible not to pick that up being around it.  On top of an obvious genetic predilection.

James's son Curtis (also a pretty good musician and songwriter) has talked about spending time at Larry's as a child and watching how he (Larry) wrote every day.  I think there's a lot of learned behavior, a lot of genetics, but I don't think this was passed on that intentionally.

Just my $.02.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Al_4_ISU

[jimmyjazz 47205]

43 minutes ago, Al_4_ISU said:

James's son Curtis (also a pretty good musician and songwriter) has talked about spending time at Larry's as a child and watching how he (Larry) wrote every day.  I think there's a lot of learned behavior,

That's a good point.  I don't think anyone who makes it to the top levels of art, sports, whatever does so without a pretty decent work ethic.  Kids probably pick up on that, and if they're willing to put in that kind of work along with a healthy does of natural inherited talent, they can probably go pretty far, too.

[Rip76 5022]

1 hour ago, G650 said:

I didn't see them mentioned, and it's multiple people, but Holland Dozier Holland are basically 1B to Dylan.

I was going to mention them.

[TexPx 2336]

I didn't see them mentioned, and it's multiple people, but Holland Dozier Holland are basically 1B to Dylan.

For a duo David Hidalgo and Louie Pérez have a pretty impressive catalog.

Also, has Lucinda Williams been mentioned?

[jimmyjazz 47205]

4 minutes ago, TexPx said:

For a duo David Hidalgo and Louie Pérez have a pretty impressive catalog.

Also, has Lucinda Williams been mentioned?

Don't know, but Los Lobos + Lucinda are excellent choices.

[WhatTheBuck 28930]

On 2/8/2023 at 7:41 PM, G650 said:

I just skimmed so maybe I missed it, but I think he made it through a whole post without mentioning the Grateful Dead

 

[Paul Wesley 3313]

Paul Simon

Bob Dylan

Tom Petty

Willie Nelson

 

If you're using objective metrics, like albums sold, radio plays, authorship of songs that are permanently in the American consciousness, people who are/were bigger-than-life icons (e.g. non-musical magazine covers, mentions in non-entertainment media like NY Times), songwriters whose songs are frequently covered... in some order, that's probably your top four, at least of the last 50-60 years, right?     

I don't know who the next two are... maybe Prince and Springsteen.  

Johnny Cash was certainly iconic and might get into an objective-criteria modern top 10.   

Anyway, that's not *my* list, but my guess at seven of the top 10 if you used some reasonable and objective metrics *and* kept it post-WWII.   And no one would click on a list like that because it's boring.

I'm probably forgetting someone obvious and will wish I could go back and edit this...

 

It gets a lot harder to measure guys that didn't live with modern media... like Hank Williams or Robert Johnson... whose faces most people wouldn't recognize but whose influence was massive.  It's also harder to compare guys who wrote in styles that have largely faded from pop culture (or at least faded relative to 21st-century tastes) - e.g. George Gershwin, Scott Joplin, John Philips Sousa, Duke Ellington, Chuck Berry.  

 

 

 

[Paul Wesley 3313]

(I knew I was gonna want to edit but it would be too late)

As an aside, I think Chuck Berry is tough to measure and rank, because he arguably fathered the dominant American genres of music post-WWII, but he also wrote pretty much every song over a simplistic I-IV-V chord pattern.  How do you compare that to Gershwin or Duke Ellington - or even Willie and Paul Simon - each of whom wrote songs with a vastly wider variety of tempos, chord changes, styles, and melodic complexity?  

Edited February 11, 2023 by Paul Wesley

[WhatTheBuck 28930]

On 2/8/2023 at 7:46 PM, Rimbo said:

Sure, he was also A songwriter. Because he wrote songs.

But this thread is about the GREATEST songwriters. And while I think Zappa was an amazing musician, performer, and artist, I think he was mediocre at songwriting.

And that's okay. MOST of my favorite bands, most of my favorite songs, are pretty far from being great songwriting, because I tend to value composition, arrangement, style and performance far more than songwriting. That's just me.

And if you can't agree that a song has to have lyrics, then you don't know the definition of the word "song." Lyrics are THE defining feature of a song vs. a piece of music.

Well, it’s a matter of taste. Maybe you haven’t heard all of Frank’s songs. I think he bears mention. I think he wrote a lot of great songs. Some of them were instrumentals. And yeah, instrumental songs are a thing. I’m not really concerned about the etymology of the word, I’m more concerned about its practical use.

But even if you only consider Frank’s songs with lyrics he still has a vast catalog, larger than that of many songwriters. He crushes Danny Elfman, for example, who I agree is also a great songwriter. Elfman, however, is probably better known as a composer.

Funny how that works. I heard the classically trained Burt Bacharach referred to as a composer on the news. At the same time the chyron called him a songwriter. He was both too. Things can get fuzzy when attaching labels to anything musical. Labels can be useful, even necessary, but I try not to get too hung up about them. My favorite version of Amazing Grace is when it’s just played on bagpipes. And then there’s rap, which isn’t singing. I’d call those songs.

Frank was rapping back in ‘66.

 

[ztejas 44227]

57 minutes ago, Paul Wesley said:

Paul Simon

Bob Dylan

Tom Petty

Willie Nelson

 

If you're using objective metrics, like albums sold, radio plays, authorship of songs that are permanently in the American consciousness, people who are/were bigger-than-life icons (e.g. non-musical magazine covers, mentions in non-entertainment media like NY Times), songwriters whose songs are frequently covered... in some order, that's probably your top four, at least of the last 50-60 years, right?     

I don't know who the next two are... maybe Prince and Springsteen.  

Johnny Cash was certainly iconic and might get into an objective-criteria modern top 10.   

Anyway, that's not *my* list, but my guess at seven of the top 10 if you used some reasonable and objective metrics *and* kept it post-WWII.   And no one would click on a list like that because it's boring.

I'm probably forgetting someone obvious and will wish I could go back and edit this...

 

It gets a lot harder to measure guys that didn't live with modern media... like Hank Williams or Robert Johnson... whose faces most people wouldn't recognize but whose influence was massive.  It's also harder to compare guys who wrote in styles that have largely faded from pop culture (or at least faded relative to 21st-century tastes) - e.g. George Gershwin, Scott Joplin, John Philips Sousa, Duke Ellington, Chuck Berry.  

 

 

 

That's a great top 4. I'm sure I'd disagree by at least one person if I did mine but all of those guys would be in my top 10. Nice work. 

[jimmyjazz 47205]

I love Petty, more than Springsteen, but I think I'd put Bruce over Tom on that list.  That said, it's a good argument.

[tbone_ 14448]

I’m taking Petty over Springsteen based on pure personal preference.

[G650 14437]

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

I love Petty, more than Springsteen, but I think I'd put Bruce over Tom on that list.  That said, it's a good argument.

 

1 hour ago, tbone_ said:

I’m taking Petty over Springsteen based on pure personal preference.

 

I think I probably like them equally, I leaned more Petty in my youth, and maybe more Bruce now, but Springsteen fucking laps Petty as a songwriter. The Born in the USA  album is probably the greatest all time display of songwriting front to back in history. I can't think of anything else close, LZ IV is probably the distant second.

 

Then he came out with Tunnel of Love which is probably my favorite album from him.

[jimmyjazz 47205]

17 minutes ago, G650 said:

I think I probably like them equally, I leaned more Petty in my youth, and maybe more Bruce now, but Springsteen fucking laps Petty as a songwriter. The Born in the USA  album is probably the greatest all time display of songwriting front to back in history. I can't think of anything else close, LZ IV is probably the distant second.

 

Then he came out with Tunnel of Love which is probably my favorite album from him.

This is pretty much where I sit.  Bruce is a poet, Tom is a lyricist.  I like the sound of Petty's music more, and he is the king of the lyrical hook, but Bruce's lyrics are deeper.

[GhostOfTomJoad 9509]

20 hours ago, G650 said:

 

Then he came out with Tunnel of Love which is probably my favorite album from him.

That album is incredible and also my favorite of his at least 3 or 4 days out of the week. I was 18 when it came out. Took my high school sweetheart to see him at the FEC on the Tunnel of Love Express tour. And though I was already a massive fan it just hit me how different those songs were, and to create a concept album around adult, romantic love and all of its challenges was something else. I knew my relationship with her was doomed by the time we both headed to different colleges. A decade later, that album also helped me come to terms with my impending divorce. 

 

[Underdog 29191]

The TOL Tour at the FEC is the only show of Bruce's we've been to, wife was working 3rd shift at AMD and we had to leave before he even finished the show was that long. 

[Paul Wesley 3313]

Since we're considering Springsteen vs Petty, I took a look on Apple Music at each one's divorce album.  Screenshots below.

In general, I'd say Springsteen's might be a little more remorseful (I guess having a massively celebrated wedding to a fashion model and subsequently getting photographed on the hotel balcony with your backup singer can do that).  Both records have moments of  remorse and regret, but also moments of anger.  Petty was willing to take a break from the pain and give listeners a pop song ("You Wreck Me").  Springsteen's seems more thematically consistent. 

You forget how "Wildflowers" opens with five straight radio-friendly songs.  Putting five consecutive songs like that on a record is an incredible feat, and it probably tops the consecutive-greatness on sides 1 of "Damn the Torpedoes" and "Full Moon Fever."

Despite that ridiculously great opening salvo, I think "Tunnel" might be a better front-to-back record.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Paul Wesley

[jimmyjazz 47205]

"Wildflowers" is such a stunning record, in every way.  Not only are the songs absolute A-list Petty, but the recording is magical.

[ztejas 44227]

Springsteen is a better composer and like others have said more eloquent and verbose lyrically. 

That said he isn't the effortless hitmaker that Petty was. 

If you want a guy to write something really different and unique that makes you sit and think about some shit then I'd take Springsteen. 

If you have an album that needs a couple Billboard hits and time is of the essence then I'm taking Petty every time. 

Overall I think they're equally impressive at what they do/did. Born to Run is my favorite album between them but overall I like Petty more. 

[G650 14437]

Even as a Petty fan I don't find Wildflowers that great. The title track and You Wreck Me are pretty mych the only real winners for me on that album.

 

The thing you have to remember with Petty too is he had Campbell which is an amazing asset.

[4th&Five 42005]

8 minutes ago, G650 said:

Even as a Petty fan I don't find Wildflowers that great. The title track and You Wreck Me are pretty mych the only real winners for me on that album.

 

The thing you have to remember with Petty too is he had Campbell which is an amazing asset.

[jimmyjazz 47205]

1 hour ago, G650 said:

Even as a Petty fan I don't find Wildflowers that great. The title track and You Wreck Me are pretty mych the only real winners for me on that album.

Wow, I think it's absolutely loaded.

[G650 14437]

10 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Wow, I think it's absolutely loaded.

 

Eh, to each his own. Even the songs that got on the radio weren't really high in my opinion, like It's Good to be King which just drags ass the whole time.

I mean, Southern Accents is not only his best album by a mile to me, but probably in my top 10 albums ever. Damn the Torpedos and Into the Great Wide Open would probably duel for 2nd. Beyond that though I've always found most of his albums uneven. Insanely good songs like Jammin Me on an album that's average at best.

[tbone_ 14448]

We all know the answer is Tom Scholz anyway.

[GhostOfTomJoad 9509]

No need to make it a Springsteen v Petty argument. They're both masters of their craft & we're lucky to have both of their catalogs to enjoy.

[dcbc 14644]

6 hours ago, jimmyjazz said:

"Wildflowers" is such a stunning record, in every way.  Not only are the songs absolute A-list Petty, but the recording is magical.

It's the best.  But just to parrot what I just posted in the superbowl halftime show thread, can anyone even imagine if someone were to release an album on par with Full Moon Fever today.  Just astonishingly good.

[G650 14437]

11 hours ago, GhostOfTomJoad said:

No need to make it a Springsteen v Petty argument. They're both masters of their craft & we're lucky to have both of their catalogs to enjoy.

 

I don't think anyone really is, both are held in very high esteem.

 

8 hours ago, dcbc said:

It's the best.  But just to parrot what I just posted in the superbowl halftime show thread, can anyone even imagine if someone were to release an album on par with Full Moon Fever today.  Just astonishingly good.

 

That's another Petty album that doesn't do much for me. Stuff like Free Falling is so cringey. It does have Yer So Bad which is a top song though.

 

 

I don't know if I mentioned it before, but the other guitar player from my first band's mom went to high school with Tom Petty. She booked Mudcrutch's first gig at a party.

[dcbc 14644]

56 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

I don't think anyone really is, both are held in very high esteem.

 

 

That's another Petty album that doesn't do much for me. Stuff like Free Falling is so cringey. It does have Yer So Bad which is a top song though.

 

 

I don't know if I mentioned it before, but the other guitar player from my first band's mom went to high school with Tom Petty. She booked Mudcrutch's first gig at a party.

Cool about the TP connection.  I picked up Full Moon Fever on vinyl recently and after a start to finish listen, I realized I should have gotten it much sooner.  The only thing bad I can say about Free Fallin is that it was overplayed on the radio back in the day and I got a bit tired of it.  But still, I wore that tape out in my car's tape deck in high school.  I'll just disagree on the its being cringey.

[G650 14437]

5 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Cool about the TP connection.  I picked up Full Moon Fever on vinyl recently and after a start to finish listen, I realized I should have gotten it much sooner.  The only thing bad I can say about Free Fallin is that it was overplayed on the radio back in the day and I got a bit tired of it.  But still, I wore that tape out in my car's tape deck in high school.  I'll just disagree on the its being cringey.

Full Moon Fever was one of the first CD's I ever got, I actually don't believe I ever had it on cassette now that I think about it.

[dcbc 14644]

Just now, G650 said:

Full Moon Fever was one of the first CD's I ever got, I actually don't believe I ever had it on cassette now that I think about it.

I probably opted for the cassette so I could listen to it in the car without having to deal with the Discman on the floating arm attached to my passenger seat anchor and the wired wonky cassette adapter.

[G650 14437]

15 minutes ago, dcbc said:

Discman on the floating arm attached to my passenger seat anchor and the wired wonky cassette adapter.