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Hugo Stiglitz

By Hugo Stiglitz
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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12771

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Johnny Sack said:

Wasn’t the American Revolution treason also?

Yep it was. And luckily for us we won. And we founded an incredible country, albeit with problems. Then some people got mad about not being able to own people and revolted against our country. Which side are you on?

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Only recoverable if you’re a Democrat. 

Johnny Sack
Johnny Sack

Why is this worse than Robert Byrd actually being a top Ku Klux Klan operative? Byrd would still be in office and in a top leadership position but for him dying a few years back.  

tantric superman

tantric superman 4667

Posted
Posted

I think it's perfectly reasonable for elected officials and voters in Virginia to pontificate if this guy should resign or etc.

For me to pontificate about  a guy I never voted for?  Yeah, a review of yearbook photos and inappropriate jokes he made when he was in medical school or undergrad might be on the application, but it would be far below an analysis of whether this guy has a decent policy agency and below whether his current non-discriminatory actions overcome that inappropriateness. 

It's a fucking distraction.  It's not a crime and it's equivalent to my dad calling an uncracked brazil nut a "nigger toe" and me and my brother laughing circa 1975.

If you are a Dem, you call this guy up and tell him he has some brownie points to re-earn to show he's not a racist.  And you make it a teaching moment and pat yourself on the back that you aren't the kind of guy who intentionally votes for people who appear to be current pussy grabbers and racists. 

I'm pretty damn politically correct but I'm not a fucking Taliban of the left.  Fuck that.  What counts is what you are doing now, not what you did before you even thought about running for office.

 

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17420

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

I think it's perfectly reasonable for elected officials and voters in Virginia to pontificate if this guy should resign or etc.

For me to pontificate about  a guy I never voted for?  Yeah, a review of yearbook photos and inappropriate jokes he made when he was in medical school or undergrad might be on the application, but it would be far below an analysis of whether this guy has a decent policy agency and below whether his current non-discriminatory actions overcome that inappropriateness. 

It's a fucking distraction.  It's not a crime and it's equivalent to my dad calling an uncracked brazil nut a "nigger toe" and me and my brother laughing circa 1975.

If you are a Dem, you call this guy up and tell him he has some brownie points to re-earn to show he's not a racist.  And you make it a teaching moment and pat yourself on the back that you aren't the kind of guy who intentionally votes for people who appear to be current pussy grabbers and racists. 

I'm pretty damn politically correct but I'm not a fucking Taliban of the left.  Fuck that.  What counts is what you are doing now, not what you did before you even thought about running for office.

 

I'd agree if his response to the thing wasn't so squirrelly. If the story about your dad got brought up, I'm sure you could come up with a reasonable and quick explanation for it and everyone would move on. You probably wouldn't say "my bad, I shouldn't have laughed . . . no wait, that wasn't me, I never laughed . . . or if I did laugh it may have been a different time and not that time." 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, hobbes2702 said:

Yep it was. And luckily for us we won. And we founded an incredible country, albeit with problems. Then some people got mad about not being able to own people and revolted against our country. Which side are you on?

Oy vey grow up, take a history lesson, do something besides saying shit like this. You really need a lesson in the culture of 19th century America, and what people thought about the country vs. their own state or county or hamlet or the neighbors across the valley.

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 12771

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Oy vey grow up, take a history lesson, do something besides saying shit like this. You really need a lesson in the culture of 19th century America, and what people thought about the country vs. their own state or county or hamlet or the neighbors across the valley.

Yea I guess I just don’t know anything about history.

I do know that the confederacy was treason and the fact that you continue to pretend that it wasn’t is entertaining. 

They can claim whatever state, county, neighbors, etc. it was still treason. 

Edited by hobbes2702
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tantric superman

tantric superman 4667

Posted
Posted
9 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

I'd agree if his response to the thing wasn't so squirrelly. If the story about your dad got brought up, I'm sure you could come up with a reasonable and quick explanation for it and everyone would move on. You probably wouldn't say "my bad, I shouldn't have laughed . . . no wait, that wasn't me, I never laughed . . . or if I did laugh it may have been a different time and not that time." 

I put squirrelly responses in the same bucket as 20-30 year old inappropriate shit.  It's not anything that warrants resigning over.  Unless the folks who put him in office feel that they would rather have it that way.

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Jiggy-Z

Jiggy-Z 3428

Posted
Posted

CSB alert:

Back in my days in the Longhorn Band (mid 80s), everybody played dress up for the Halloween rehearsal. 

I guess it was fall of 85 or 86 a few of the clarinet players decided it would be cool to dress up as naked Edwin Simmons.  They wore as little clothing as allowable, and not only did blackface but black body as well.  I remember thinking it was pretty damn funny and creative, at the time.  Of course none of those guys went on to hold any high public office.

For those that don't know what naked Edwin Simmons is:

Basically, from my less than renowned memory, Edwin Simmons was a somewhat tall upright runner who might remind you of a young Eric Dickerson. He broke out in the OU game and tore Switzer's team a new one. After the season was over, I believe in the springtime, he was found in someone's back yard in Austin, naked. I believe he said he was "disoriented". That's all I recall. But I was at that OU game and I thought I was seeing the next superstar....

Speculation at the time and since indicated that he was in the wrong house with the wrong (wealthy and powerful -- or married to it) woman and needed to get the hell out of Dodge at an inconvenient time. Interracial affairs were less well accepted at the time, and adultery is mentioned in most accounts. Suffering acute embarrassment was preferable to explaining the situation. "I don't know why I'm naked" was the best option available. Given the number of houses nearby, Mr. Simmons' ability to run fast and far naked before coming in contact with authorities led to extensive speculation regarding whose husband came home early. The entertainment value of all this transcended Simmons' injuries, which killed a promising career. (I was at that OU game, too, and Simons' burst past the OU safeties was something very special.) 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
Just now, hobbes2702 said:

Yea I guess I just don’t know anything about history.

I do know that the confederacy was treason and the fact that you continue to pretend that it wasn’t is entertaining. 

They can claim whatever state, county, neighbors, etc. it was still treason. 

No you don't. You know facts and dates maybe, but you're skipping the sociological aspect of what it was like to be a 19th century citizen in America .  Heres a pro tip: They (many many many people) had different thoughts about what it meant to be a citizen of this country, and how they conducted their lives.  Most of them never went more than a couple miles from their homes their entire lives.  Their country was often their little hamlet in whatever backwater they lived in.  

You keep using the term traitor in a way that while, technically correct is so far removed from how people looked at citizenship, in a nation not much more than 75 years old, and how people viewed America.  Your definition is like a cardboard cut out of a person. Look at it head on, and it looks real stand to the side and you see its just a flat, one dimensional cardboard cut out (like your blanket use of the term traitor)  

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, tantric superman said:

I put squirrelly responses in the same bucket as 20-30 year old inappropriate shit.  It's not anything that warrants resigning over.  Unless the folks who put him in office feel that they would rather have it that way.

By the 80's anyone putting on black face OR kkk robes is an idiot. His press conference over the weekend was an abysmal failure. I voted for the man because I saw him as a pretty reasonable guy who seemed like a middle of the rod democrat (which  I still believe he has been, up until his comments on later term abortions). How he's handled this situation has been pretty bad. Is he racist ?  Hard to say. Is he an idiot for doing that, for damn sure he is.

I posted about an episode of All in the family where Archie dons black face for a minstrel show. I was 11 or 12 at the time, and remembered being holy shit what an idiot (but that was Archie).   I saw people doing that black face thing growing up, and at parties in college, and was always taken aback at how insensitive, and ignorant they were for doing something so historically demeaning.

Should he resign ?  The stupidity of the original act (if proven to be him) coupled with how he's conducted himself since it became public,  says yeah he's gotta go. If he can come up with a plausible explanation or prove it wasn't him then I'll re examine the situation. 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
Just now, retread said:

We almost saw the Gov of VA moonwalk today to prove that he had dressed blackface as Michael Jackson.

 

I've always been pretty proud to be of Virginia stock. That made me wish I lived in WVA for a minute.  Thank God his wife had the good sense to not let that happen.  He has got to go.

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EMAWesome

EMAWesome 101

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, retread said:

We almost saw the Gov of VA moonwalk today to prove that he had donned blackface as Michael Jackson.

 

If he had done that it would have gone down as the most famous press conference in American political history.  Not the best press conference, but easily the most memorable one.

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Spankytoes

Spankytoes 1735

Posted
Posted (edited)
On 2/3/2019 at 4:06 PM, Slade said:

I find it interesting that the same folks that wax poetic about the Confederacy (some to the point of having Civil War re-enactments) and getting angry whenever a Confederate monument is taken down are always quick to tell black people to get over slavery. 

How do you feel about Malcolm X statues or streets named after him?

Edited by Spankytoes
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Slade

Slade 263

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Spankytoes said:

How do you feel about Malcolm X statues or streets named after him?

Is Malcolm X anywhere near on the same level as people that started a civil war that killed tens of thousands of people over keeping slavery? One wanted liberation for black people in an oppressive society, the other wanted to keep chattel slavery alive, hmm...

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Asithappens

Asithappens 974

Posted
Posted

I'll probably get negged into Bolivian, but, while I don't condone at all putting on blackface, I don't think it's the height of racism. Can it be a racist act? Yes. Can it ever be done without a racial angle? Probably a strong no on that. But that doesn't necessarily mean that all instances (mostly those in the past) are racist. 

Just like calling those of Chinese descent "oriental". 

Imo, we often times get fixated on the "lesser" acts of racial conduct (looking at you, leftist dipshits) instead of actually zeroing in real acts of racism. 

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Kyle

Kyle 207

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Posted
4 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

I'll probably get negged into Bolivian, but, while I don't condone at all putting on blackface, I don't think it's the height of racism. Can it be a racist act? Yes. Can it ever be done without a racial angle? Probably a strong no on that. But that doesn't necessarily mean that all instances (mostly those in the past) are racist. 

Just like calling those of Chinese descent "oriental". 

Imo, we often times get fixated on the "lesser" acts of racial conduct (looking at you, leftist dipshits) instead of actually zeroing in real acts of racism. 

I tend to agree with you, but many have effectively weaponized racism. No one is going to put down the Race Cards when they continue to be so powerful.

This is made worse by the fact that weaponized racism was a key part of this idiot's campaign. The only thing saving him from a national lynch mob is his party affiliation. 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

I'll probably get negged into Bolivian, but, while I don't condone at all putting on blackface, I don't think it's the height of racism. Can it be a racist act? Yes. Can it ever be done without a racial angle? Probably a strong no on that. But that doesn't necessarily mean that all instances (mostly those in the past) are racist. 

Just like calling those of Chinese descent "oriental". 

Imo, we often times get fixated on the "lesser" acts of racial conduct (looking at you, leftist dipshits) instead of actually zeroing in real acts of racism. 

Yeah, but it's got enough of a history of actual racist connotations that it's best left to trash heap of history. And certainly by the 80's you've got to know it's just really really stoopid. I'm not gonna lose my shit if he resigns or doesn't, but he looked pretty bad throughout this whole thing with his flip flopping.

As a white guy I'm also not in a position to say what is or isn't overtly offensive to someone of color, enough that they would lose their job as an elected official.

Edited by Onboard 2.0
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Celery Man

Celery Man 20874

Posted
Posted
52 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

I'll probably get negged into Bolivian, but, while I don't condone at all putting on blackface, I don't think it's the height of racism. Can it be a racist act? Yes. Can it ever be done without a racial angle? Probably a strong no on that. But that doesn't necessarily mean that all instances (mostly those in the past) are racist. 

Just like calling those of Chinese descent "oriental". 

Imo, we often times get fixated on the "lesser" acts of racial conduct (looking at you, leftist dipshits) instead of actually zeroing in real acts of racism. 

i agree with you on some points, however I don't think that you can ever be posing as an adult in a picture submitted for your postgraduate yearbook dressed either as a klansmen or in blackface with a klansmen and have it be racially benign.

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 20636

Posted
Posted
43 minutes ago, Kyle said:

I tend to agree with you, but many have effectively weaponized racism. No one is going to put down the Race Cards when they continue to be so powerful.

This is made worse by the fact that weaponized racism was a key part of this idiot's campaign. The only thing saving him from a national lynch mob is his party affiliation. 

If he was a Republican, the coordinated GOP attack to defend Northam would be fully operational right now. 

 

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tantric superman

tantric superman 4667

Posted
Posted

It's not benign.  It's a stupid fucking bit of idiocy. 

The question is at what point beyond criminality and mendacity do you argue that a sin is unforgivable or warrants a sanction beyond public opprobrium.

I'm getting to a point where my line truly is at criminality or mendacity (lying on a resume, etc.)

Stupid fucking bits of idiocy.  You need to live with it but I'm not going to say you need to step down from anything.  I care more about what you will do to make it right, to the extent you can.

 

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Asithappens

Asithappens 974

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, Celery Man said:

i agree with you on some points, however I don't think that you can ever be posing as an adult in a picture submitted for your postgraduate yearbook dressed either as a klansmen or in blackface with a klansmen and have it be racially benign.

Nobody, as far as I can tell, and certainly not I, said anything about this being racially benign. It has a tinge (or more) of racial stain, but how strong is that tinge? That's my point. It's dumb, it's stupid, and it certainly wasn't done in the context of improving race relations. But just how bad is it? To some, it may be very bad. To me, it's more expression (with whatever racial elements are involved). It's not hitting someone. It's not denying services to someone. 

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Celery Man

Celery Man 20874

Posted
Posted (edited)

Painted completely opaque with racial stain.  We can discuss how accountable we hold people for shit they did 30 years ago (and maybe about how leaders should handle shit like this when it come up if they want forgiveness).  Independent of that, if the discussion is how bad is this/adults will be adults/it's all in good fun/what's the big deal - no/not remotely yes.  Again, drawing a distinction between blackface as part of a Michael Jackson outfit (which is a bullshit excuse) and blackface as a minstrel character posing with a klansman.

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Asithappens

Asithappens 974

Posted
Posted (edited)

What probably bothers me the most is that, in my impression anyway (and I could be wrong) is that these "tests" of moral/racial purity are being hijacked for mostly political purposes. It's similar to the group who says that the First Amendment doesn't cover "hate speech". Um, yes it does. This is all getting way too close to an Orwellian environment, for my tastes. 

Look at what happened to the faculty member at Yale in the past few years (the resident dorm advisor) and at the college in the pacific northwest (Evergeen?). 

What matters to these groups, again in my opinion and I may be wrong, isn't so much the actual act (of blackface) but the reaction to the act. One has to "signal their virtue" (and not to say I endorse that group who is into virtue signaling as a theory) and if one doesn't, then they are also racists. 

With respect to the gov of Virginia, is there a recall law in place to remove him? If so, then go that route. And if the Repubs are so concerned with this stuff, where were they when people were worried about being replaced by Jews?

Edited by Asithappens
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lemonlime

lemonlime 5503

Posted
Posted

It's not about whether what he did is forgivable.  if he seeks forgiveness, something he hasn't done, instead making bizarre changes to his story, then maybe it would be.   It's about the propriety of having someone who did vile, racist things as an adult be responsible for the citizens of a state, including the 45% of Virginians who are people of color, and make decisions that impact those people's lives.

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Asithappens

Asithappens 974

Posted
Posted
Just now, Celery Man said:

I agree with you, and think the concern over thought police/virtue signalling/etc is warranted.  I think this is a bad case for it.  Something like the dumb Liam Neeson thing that people are proclaiming their upsetness about - who gives a shit.

Yep.

Grow the fuck up (or words to that effect).

Look at LBJ and all the good he did. And look at all the racial/racist shit he did, too. Could LBJ survive in today's environment? Hell no, imo. What's important, to me, is what he accomplished.

The world isn't some morally pure place. 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, lemonlime said:

It's not about whether what he did is forgivable.  if he seeks forgiveness, something he hasn't done, instead making bizarre changes to his story, then maybe it would be.   It's about the propriety of having someone who did vile, racist things as an adult be responsible for the citizens of a state, including the 45% of Virginians who are people of color, and make decisions that impact those people's lives.

Vile thing wearing  black face ?  I'd say it has something to do with the context.  Stupid and insensitive seems a more measured definition of what he was doing.  Standing next to a KKK costume makes it worse though. Obviously they were laughing it all off.  Not much to laugh off about those costumes .

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Bama Chick

Bama Chick 28596

Posted
Posted

The last lynching of a black man in this country was in my state in 1981.

This photo was taken in 1984.

To say that the KKK wasn’t an active, violent murderous organization at that time is to ignore facts.

He was in medical school at the time. He wasn’t a dumb teenager. He was a fully baked grown man.

He is now the governor of a state that just recently had an alt-right gathering that turned into and outright racist nazi rally in which a woman was murdered and the name Charlottesville has become synonymous with the boldness the racists in America feel now in showing themselves.

There is no nuance here. There is no looking past it. No matter what platitudes and apologies Northam says, what do you think black Virginians see when they look at him?

They see a white man in black face and a KKK robe and hood.

The trust between the governor and his black constituents is irrevocably broken.

He must resign.

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Dahobbs

Dahobbs 17420

Posted
Posted
44 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Yep.

Grow the fuck up (or words to that effect).

Look at LBJ and all the good he did. And look at all the racial/racist shit he did, too. Could LBJ survive in today's environment? Hell no, imo. What's important, to me, is what he accomplished.

The world isn't some morally pure place. 

You misunderstood his post I think. While you may have had a point, this particularly instance a poor example of it. He should resign. 

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Hank Kingsley

Hank Kingsley 20636

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

The last lynching of a black man in this country was in my state in 1981.

This photo was taken in 1984.

To say that the KKK wasn’t an active, violent murderous organization at that time is to ignore facts.

He was in medical school at the time. He wasn’t a dumb teenager. He was a fully baked grown man.

He is now the governor of a state that just recently had an alt-right gathering that turned into and outright racist nazi rally in which a woman was murdered and the name Charlottesville has become synonymous with the boldness the racists in America feel now in showing themselves.

There is no nuance here. There is no looking past it. No matter what platitudes and apologies Northam says, what do you think black Virginians see when they look at him?

They see a white man in black face and a KKK robe and hood.

The trust between the governor and his black constituents is irrevocably broken.

He must resign.

103017_springer_hr_explosion_mid.gif

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Bama Chick said:

The last lynching of a black man in this country was in my state in 1981.

This photo was taken in 1984.

To say that the KKK wasn’t an active, violent murderous organization at that time is to ignore facts.

He was in medical school at the time. He wasn’t a dumb teenager. He was a fully baked grown man.

He is now the governor of a state that just recently had an alt-right gathering that turned into and outright racist nazi rally in which a woman was murdered and the name Charlottesville has become synonymous with the boldness the racists in America feel now in showing themselves.

There is no nuance here. There is no looking past it. No matter what platitudes and apologies Northam says, what do you think black Virginians see when they look at him?

They see a white man in black face and a KKK robe and hood.

The trust between the governor and his black constituents is irrevocably broken.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


He must resign.

The incident in Charlottesville was created by outside influences.  Nobody, nor either party backed that shit show, other than stupid ass racists. 

Your other points are valid. I'll defer to the folks of color on their feelings toward his costume, I can guess the sentiment however.

His current handling of the situation has been the insult to the injury, that alone makes his position pretty untenable.

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