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The Irishman. It's coming.

Baboontyme

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Baboontyme

Baboontyme 2812

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Stream of consciousness thoughts after finishing it. Going to spoiler tag. 

Spoiler

I agree with the thoughts about the last 30 odd minutes. It played out very strangely in the movie. The idea here is that Frank's life is coming to an end, and much like Russel, he wants to make some internal peace for the things he has done. The movie hints at this, but still shows Frank as being stubborn and never fully committing to confessing his sins. Which is absolutely the entire reason that his story came to light. Brandt spent years working him and delicately trying to press the issue, with a temperamental old guy who was slowly losing his wits, sometimes vacillating between stubbornness, "omerta", confessing his sins, flashbacks, and probably some dementia. I can understand why Bob and Scorcese didn't want to bring "the interviewer" into the movie, but if you're not going to show Frank progressing to that place where he needs to make that peace, what is the point of the last 30 minutes? And even if you were going to depict that, it could have happened a lot faster than whatever took place in the last 30 minutes of the movie. 

I think I read the movie was filmed in New York and Canada. I did not like the way they recreated the scenes with the drive from the airport to the house, past the Red Fox, and back. I'm not sure what Telegraph was like in 1975, but I'm sure it wasn't drastically different than it was in the mid 80s when I became familiar with it. Nor was 7 Mile. To depict these as country roads leading to a quaint neighborhood...not at all. It takes a little bit away from the realism of the film, at least for me. A big part of why I am as interested in this story as I am, is because as I said in one of my first few posts in this thread, the accounting of the events, the streets, the turns, the bridge, the footbridge, the neighborhood, the house, the detached garage, Brandt revisiting the house years later and discovering the layout had been altered and that the prior layout DID match Frank's description, etc...all adds to the lore, and reason why Frank's story is so believable. 

Also, in Frank's actual account, Russ told him they incinerated the body, but it was much more played off as he was there to do a job, he did his job, and wasn't to know anymore than that. And it was the same for everyone else involved. The movie alludes to Chuckie O'Brien's involvement. The book goes into more detail. If it went down as it was laid out, some great psychological planning. Chuckie just knew he was supposed to pick his Father in Law up, and drop him off. When he realizes that he has gone missing and that he played a part, it makes since psychologically (and for his own and his family's safety) why he would not want to admit to having any part of that. The book also talks about how there are a number of rather large cemeteries in close proximity to that house and how many of them had mob ties. I can certainly verify the former. I guess it makes sense why they wanted to tie that up in the movie, but I wasn't really fond of it. 

Speaking of, and I mentioned this earlier. So much debunking of this story. I get it. Watch the movie, it's kind of sensationalized. I've had friends telling me I saw it, they've read some of the recent articles and they're saying stuff like "So this guy was dying and wanted to get his last payday or his place in history". Not at all man. Not anywhere close. I've also seen a prominent Hoffa historian shoot the entire thing down because of stuff like Frank saying that he "believes the Pontiac airport is a residential development now" (it's not, it's the Oakland County Executive Airport), and also Frank saying that the Machus Red Fox was "set back a way from the road (Telegraph)" - it's not, at least from today's 10 lane highway. Come the fuck on. I fully expect that this guy was a good storyteller, maybe didn't remember everything to the 9s, maybe exaggerated here or there. But can you explain to me how a guy from Philly could so accurately pinpoint landing in an airport in Pontiac, which hooks on to Telegraph, traveling South on Telegraph, past the Machus Red Fox (at 15 mile), making a left onto 7 mile (now it's a Michigan left, but it wouldn't have been back then), then a right onto (can't remember the street name), passing over a bridge, and then a foot bridge, and coming to this house and describing the house in great detail, interior and exterior? Frank did something at that house. He didn't fabricate this entire thing out of his ass for notoriety. I know they pulled floorboards and found little DNA, but if they laid out the linoleum as described...I'm just sayin'. Also Frank mentions in the book, and I totally back this theory - these historians are now rolling out theories that the body was taken to the East Coast in drums and buried with toxic waste, etc. How stupid is that? You are going to take one of the most notorious and most hated man in the country, kill him and drag his body across 5 State lines? It makes zero sense, especially considering the close proximity to local cemeteries and the trash incinerator mentioned in the book, all with mob ties in those times. 

I think the last hope is with Fat Todd, I mean Chuckie O'Brien. He is 85 now and still denying any involvement. He has admitted that he borrowed 'Tony Jack's" kid's car that day and carried a fish in it. The hope is he has a Sheeran type of coming to as he faces down the tunnel towards the end. We shall see. 

Overall I fucking loved the movie. Solid 9/10 for me. 

 

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Baboontyme

Baboontyme 2812

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32 minutes ago, BigOrange1 said:

just finished it and thought it was fantastic.  like best picture fantastic.  the only thing that sort of took me out of it was the scene where deniro beat up the grocery store owner because that was very obviously poorly done.  

thought pacino was incredible.  i've always been a big fan, but i didn't know he still had that in him.

i went in without reading the book or even knowing much of the history behind it.  definitely want to read the book now.

Read the book man! You won't regret it. 

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13512

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16 hours ago, tantric superman said:

If Jesse Plemons doesn't have something significant to do in a movie he is pretty distracting as well.  I kept waiting for him to be more of an important figure.

I don’t blame actors for taking a smaller role to act alongside legends and work with Scorsese, but I agree it’s distracting. I could tell it was little Steven playing the singer so I focused on him when his character didn’t matter.

 

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Baboontyme

Baboontyme 2812

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If it tickles your fancy and you want to go all google mapping it and stuff, it's 17841 Beaverland St, Detroit 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/17841+Beaverland+St,+Detroit,+MI+48219/@42.4216473,-83.2653766,3a,75y,263.84h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s6_67bQ-bHA1fR7EHnMG-gA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D6_67bQ-bHA1fR7EHnMG-gA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D263.83557%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x8824b5ef5c035f3d:0x8db6b8a87edba631!8m2!3d42.4216293!4d-83.2656327

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Celery Man

Celery Man 20950

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Context with Joe Gallo and the pin - ~10-15 years before the scene, there was a big dustup in the Profaci family where Gallo and his brothers were in a power contest with the boss Joseph Profaci.  Gallo ended up going to prison in the middle of it, Profaci died of cancer, and Joe Colombo ended up in power and the family civil war ended.  But then Gallo got out of prison (shortly before the events in the movie) and didn't feel that the terms of the peace applied to him since he was out of the picture, and arranged a hit on Joe Colombo.  Colombo had started the Italian American Anti Defamation league (which a lot of mobsters didn't like anyways as it drew attention), and it was at a rally for that where Gallo arranged a hit on Colombo, using his connections from prison (a black guy did the hit, which made Colombo a vegetable until he died several years later).  Bufalino wearing the pin is a fairly benign showing of support for Colombo, or at least that's how I took it.  I think the fact that Gallo set up the hit in that kind of setting (in public, friends and family around) is also part of why they killed him in front of his family in a place in Little Italy where typically such a hit wouldn't have been done, which Sheeran kinda mentions in the movie.

Also, its alleged or possible (Gallo claimed it) that Gallo was involved in the murder of Albert Anastasia in the barbershop, which they also showed (off screen) earlier in the movie.  That's maybe about as likely as Sheeran having committed the Gallo murder.

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Aqua Buddha

Aqua Buddha 14597

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Good write up from Peggy Noonan in the WSJ:

“The Irishman” is great art and as such has stature. 

But it is not, as we know, great history. It captures a world while blithely ignoring its facts. Frank Sheeran, the mobster on whose life the film is based, didn’t kill the flashy, up-and-coming gangster Joey Gallo, as he does in the film. And he surely didn’t kill Jimmy Hoffa.

Who did? There’s no reason to doubt the longtime consensus that mafia leadership OK’d the murder and a particular mobster, probably Anthony Provenzano, ordered it. 

But who pulled the trigger? Over the years a lot of people have “confessed” or claimed they know. For some of the real story, and for a great American tale in itself, you want to go to Jack Goldsmith’s book, “In Hoffa’s Shadow,” which came out earlier this year. 

It is some book. It is about the guy the FBI and everyone else, for decades, thought drove the union leader to his doom, and may have been involved in his killing. That man was a mobbed-up low-level union official named Chuckie O’Brien. He was Hoffa’s longtime gofer and like a second son to him. Coming under suspicion and never being exonerated ruined Chuckie’s life.

Mr. Goldsmith is a professor of law at Harvard Law School, a person of establishment respect, an Ivy League guy who was in George W. Bush’s Justice Department.

And he started his career with a secret. He was Chuckie O’Brien’s adopted son. His mother married Chuckie when he was a kid, and in his turbulent childhood Chuckie was the only solid source of love and support. “Chuckie was my third father, and my best,” Mr. Goldsmith writes.

As Jack O’Brien—as he was then—grew up, he became a good student, a reader. He got accepted at a respected college, then went on to Oxford and Yale Law. He came to understand that a connection to Chuckie wouldn’t exactly be a career enhancer. He came to see Chuckie as crude, gruff. He lived as a criminal, a man who broke the law. Which was now horrifying for Jack, who’d come to love the law and saw the value of order. So he changed his last name back to Goldsmith, his absent father’s name, and broke off relations with Chuckie. When the court where he hoped to clerk, and later the Justice Department, did security and background checks, he said he hadn’t seen or spoken to Chuckie in years. He had only contempt for the life Chuckie led. He threw him right under the bus. They let Jack in, and he rose.

Now it’s years later, the Bush era is over, and Jack Goldsmith is uncomfortable. His entire life had been that most American of things, a big class shift, a status shift: He’d started in one place, wound up in another, and felt the dislocation of it. He questioned things. He hadn’t spoken to Chuckie in years, hadn’t invited him to his wedding. He wanted to heal the breach, to make amends. He began a dialogue that produced a book about Chuckie’s life, and their relationship, and more than that.

Mr. Goldsmith rethinks not only his personal decisions but his intellectual predicates. He sees the irony in the decision of Bobby Kennedy’s Justice Department to launch a massive federal investigation of Hoffa. Kennedy did it because Hoffa and the Teamsters were mobbed up. What Kennedy didn’t understand was that Hoffa dealt with the mob strategically, on his terms and at arm’s length. 

After Hoffa was jailed, “The wall that Hoffa had maintained between the Teamsters union and organized crime collapsed,” Mr. Goldsmith writes. They hounded Hoffa to stop the mob from taking over the union. It turned out only when he was in jail could the mob take over the union—and its pension funds.

Chuckie saw a class element in Kennedy’s targeting of the Teamsters: Justice Department guys were a bunch of privileged Ivy League punks who under the guise of enforcing the law often broke it. Mr. Goldsmith’s research reveals that, in fact, they did break the law, with indiscriminate and illegal surveillance of Hoffa and his associates. 

Tantalizingly, Mr. Goldsmith tells us at the end that the FBI now finally believes it knows who murdered Hoffa. “The killer was a low level family member in 1975, someone entirely off the early investigators’ radar. His status in the Detroit family rose almost immediately after the disappearance, and he died in January 2019.”

Mr. Goldsmith doesn’t use his name. “The person has not been associated with the Hoffa murder in the past 44 years,” he said in a telephone interview. “I didn’t want to do with this guy what had been done to Chuckie.”

Fair enough. An internet search matching Mr. Goldsmith’s exact descriptors yields the name Tony Palazollo, a Detroit mob figure who died in January 2019. 

Is that who did it? After all these years the FBI should open its files, say what it knows, and close this case.

Last thought. All these people, from Ford to Scorsese, from RFK to Hoffa, from gangsters and pols to warriors and prairie saints—all these vivid, varied, colorful characters, these types, these humans—it takes some kind of country to make room for them, to make them all so possible, until they say goodbye. 

And a happy Thanksgiving to the great and fabled nation that is still, this day, the hope of the world.

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Nice Guy Eddie

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On first pass, I have to give it a meh. I’m cool that it wasn’t adrenaline rushed as goodfellas or casino but the story seemed stretched out unnecessarily. And as referenced above about the unmentioned storyline about the pin for the anti-defamation league had other meanings, why add elements that require additional research.

i do agree that Scorsese definitely moved far far away from the glamorization of mafia life. From prison life, ruined family relationships, colleagues/friends all getting killed, to even staying at motels when you’re a mafia boss.

 

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Saint Tacky

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On 11/30/2019 at 12:29 AM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I don’t blame actors for taking a smaller role to act alongside legends and work with Scorsese, but I agree it’s distracting. I could tell it was little Steven playing the singer so I focused on him when his character didn’t matter.

Same with watching Jim Norton try to play Don Rickles.  I kept thinking, damn this is disappointing.  Jim Norton used to be really funny.

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billfromlaketravis

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I hope the film firmly closes the door on more Hoffa films. We know the mob killed Hoffa. Who cares who pulled the trigger? Why is this a national obsession? There are more interesting stories to tell from that era. Stop revisiting the same one over and over again. 
 

I am thankful that Hoffa’s story gave us the best Danny DeVito directed film, Jack Nicholson’s second to last elite performance, and another Scorsese film. But enough already. 

Edited by billfromlaketravis
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Gene Parmesan

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52 minutes ago, SubliminalHorn said:

Couldn’t get past the CGI. Couldn’t buy that they were 40 years younger. Might give it another chance but could only get through like 45 min. 

It really only stood out for me in the scene where Frank beats the grocery store clerk for shoving his daughter.  The fight scenes in Dolemite were more believable.

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Nice Guy Eddie

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1 hour ago, billfromlaketravis said:

I hope the film firmly closes the door on more Hoffa films. We know the mob killed Hoffa. Who cares who pulled the trigger? Why is this a national obsession? There are more interesting stories to tell from that era. Stop revisiting the same one over and over again. 
 

I am thankful that Hoffa’s story gave us the best Danny DeVito directed film, Jack Nicholson’s second to last elite performance, and another Scorsese film. But enough already. 

I've always found the Hoffa story to relatively dull and I don't think it's a national obsession. Given that he disappeared 44 years ago, few under 50 have any awareness of Hoffa. He might as well be a made-up movie character.  I also don't think many under 40 even recall how powerful unions could be.

I haven't watched the Nicholson portrayal in years but can only vaguely recall being bored by the movie. 

In general, aren't mafia stories basically over? I suppose another goodfellas or sopranos could be created but it seems doubtful.

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billfromlaketravis

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1 minute ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I've always found the Hoffa story to relatively dull and I don't think it's a national obsession. Given that he disappeared 44 years ago, few under 50 have any awareness of Hoffa. He might as well be a made-up movie character.  I also don't think many under 40 even recall how powerful unions could be.

I haven't watched the Nicholson portrayal in years but can only vaguely recall being bored by the movie. 

In general, aren't mafia stories basically over? I suppose another goodfellas or sopranos could be created but it seems doubtful.

Sopranos prequel supposed to drop in September 2020. 

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Guest Lobo

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His initial disappearance was fascinating.  Much like the two Kennedy assassinations.  The reason Union and Mafia movies no longer resinate with American audiences is because the leadership of those two groups collectively have the appeal of Sean Penn in "I Am Sam" in terms of cinematic draw.  They did control a disproportionate amount of American History for several decades.  But then much of the country realized that they were dealing with leaders (both Teamsters and the Mob) that were functionally retarded.  Once they overtook these idiots, the paradigm shifted and the narrative wasn't remotely interesting (save for a couple of Vegas casinos).  

This was a great movie though only because of some of the lesser known guys off camera being Chicago celebs.  But you gotta break it up in chunks.  I don't know how some of y'all did this whole 3.5 hour stretch in one sitting.  

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LABEVO

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11 hours ago, SubliminalHorn said:

Couldn’t get past the CGI. Couldn’t buy that they were 40 years younger. Might give it another chance but could only get through like 45 min. 

Same. Felt like junk food for mob movies relying on how many stars can we pack into it. Wanting to be a great mob movie but just carried by big names. 

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Buzzrock

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It really only stood out for me in the scene where Frank beats the grocery store clerk for shoving his daughter.  The fight scenes in Dolemite were more believable.


The other scene that stuck out was when Sheeran threw the Gallo guns in the river. I thought DeNiro was going to fall in.

I’m only halfway through but so far Pesci is my favorite. I like that he isn’t playing his usually loose cannon self. Much more understated.

I didn’t recognize Kathrine Narducci, had to look her up.
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hundredTT

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It’s fucking brilliant. My family loves mafia type movies and obviously we get a very limited selection now a days. The star power alone is amazing, and the acting is what you’d expect from legends. Absolutely loved every minute of it, even though it was long as fuck. My dad who has Alzheimer’s actually comprehended the entire movie, and talked to us like he was back in the 1990s discussing Goodfellas. Life can be crazy.  

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Deej

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47 minutes ago, hundredTT said:

It’s fucking brilliant. My family loves mafia type movies and obviously we get a very limited selection now a days. The star power alone is amazing, and the acting is what you’d expect from legends. Absolutely loved every minute of it, even though it was long as fuck. My dad who has Alzheimer’s actually comprehended the entire movie, and talked to us like he was back in the 1990s discussing Goodfellas. Life can be crazy.  

That's fantastic it allowed you those moments with your father.

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Mileslong

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It really only stood out for me in the scene where Frank beats the grocery store clerk for shoving his daughter.  The fight scenes in Dolemite were more believable.

That was unbelievable it was so bad. I kept thinking the 77 year old Scorsese thought that the 76 year old DeNiro didn’t look old at all when beating up the storekeeper.
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Pokoloco

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On 12/3/2019 at 5:41 AM, Buzzrock said:

 


The other scene that stuck out was when Sheeran threw the Gallo guns in the river. I thought DeNiro was going to fall in.

I’m only halfway through but so far Pesci is my favorite. I like that he isn’t playing his usually loose cannon self. Much more understated.

I didn’t recognize Kathrine Narducci, had to look her up.

 

Agree, Pesci was fantastic in this.

The CGI took me out too. They just should've had a different actor play the younger Sheeran.  Imagine if Brando was CGI'd in Godfather 2 to look like the young Don Corleone? 

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Buzzrock

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Agree, Pesci was fantastic in this.
The CGI took me out too. They just should've had a different actor play the younger Sheeran.  Imagine if Brando was CGI'd in Godfather 2 to look like the young Don Corleone? 


Ha I had the exact same thought re: DeNiro and Brando. There’s nothing wrong with using different actors.
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Baboontyme

Baboontyme 2812

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After taking some time to digest, that is my biggest gripe as well, though sort of for different reasons. I thought DeNiro did a very good job. He just didn't really convey the character. They should have used someone younger, someone bigger, and with a "less Italian" demeanor. I think in the very first post of this thread I panned people imagining that they would complain about DeNiro not being big enough yet here I am. 

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Frank Erwin

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I too was ok with the CGI except for the grocery store fight scene.  Maybe because we have seen De Niro onscreen in so many fight scenes.  This was not Raging Bull De Niro or Cape Fear De Niro.  This was an 80 year old fart trying to make sure he doesn't fall over while stomping on a guy's hand.

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Gene Parmesan

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1 hour ago, Frank Erwin said:

I too was ok with the CGI except for the grocery store fight scene.  Maybe because we have seen De Niro onscreen in so many fight scenes.  This was not Raging Bull De Niro or Cape Fear De Niro.  This was an 80 year old fart trying to make sure he doesn't fall over while stomping on a guy's hand.

Regardless of what his faced looked like his movements and hunching made him seem like an old geezer.  That's a limitation of this technology.  I'm sure it will get better, but it probably should just be reserved to make a middle aged guy look young vs an old guy look middle aged.  That way it won't look so ridiculous if you need to show the character doing something remotely action oriented or even walking quickly.

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MissingInAction

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On 12/3/2019 at 9:13 PM, hundredTT said:

It’s fucking brilliant. My family loves mafia type movies and obviously we get a very limited selection now a days. The star power alone is amazing, and the acting is what you’d expect from legends. Absolutely loved every minute of it, even though it was long as fuck. My dad who has Alzheimer’s actually comprehended the entire movie, and talked to us like he was back in the 1990s discussing Goodfellas. Life can be crazy.  

I used to work at a mental health facility, and one of the widely used treatments/therapies for patients with Alzheimer's is to play music and movies from their youth. Somehow that would snap them right back into lucidity during the length of the song or movie. There's debate on whether they are aware of what they are doing, or if it is a Pavlovian reaction. 

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Dennis Taylor

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23 hours ago, Baboontyme said:

After taking some time to digest, that is my biggest gripe as well, though sort of for different reasons. I thought DeNiro did a very good job. He just didn't really convey the character. They should have used someone younger, someone bigger, and with a "less Italian" demeanor. I think in the very first post of this thread I panned people imagining that they would complain about DeNiro not being big enough yet here I am. 

Ray Stevenson or Liev Schreiber

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billfromlaketravis

billfromlaketravis 11481

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21 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

I’m watching it right now. This is like watching a mob movie, but instead of regular actors, they decided to use 80 year olds. It’s a geriatric mafia movie. Pesci, DeNiro, they’re all great, but I can’t get past the age. 

Wait until the last 30 minutes and get back to us. A double barrel middle finger from the director to studios/audiences/everyone except film directors. 

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