All Things Transgendered Thread

[Huckleberry 32702]

Here is an interesting read:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5824932/
But I'm not sure what evidence you want to discuss. Gender and sex are recognized as a distinct concepts for humans by pretty much anyone who studies either. You want to ignore that distinction because . . . I guess you find it inconvenient? I don't really understand your reasoning, but it makes discussion impossible. 

Yep, it's how you know he's not interested in a serious discussion from the start. In his initial response in this thread he declares that he's not interested in a "semantics" argument about how gender and sex aren't interchangeable terms. It's therefore impossible to engage in an actual discussion on the transgendered issue considering the entire concept of transgendered people is based on the fact that gender and sex aren't interchangeable.

But pointing that out just means you're not respecting his different viewpoint so you're the bigot and he's the victim.

[Chrispy 132]

It didn’t take very long for the transgender thread to transition. 

[NWBuck 8547]

If people are interested, this is an intriguing podcast (part of a larger series): http://www.sceneonradio.org/episode-48-aint-no-amoeba-men-part-2/

[hobbes2702 12844]

9 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

I’ll look at it tonight more in-depth, as I’m about to get off the train, but that’s not really what I’m looking for at first glance. I don’t need a list of definitions of what all these terms are defined as, according to the Mayo Clinic. I’m looking for a scientific study showing that a biological man can become a biological woman. My argument is that it is not possible. To be frank, I’m not 100% sure what your argument is beyond a man can become a woman in a social construct, which is easy to disbunk even if I conceded that this was correct.

Why is that your argument? What does that have to do with anything? Have you never heard of a sex change?

[Dahobbs 17447]

20 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

Will look at and discuss this too. I disagree with your premise and will respond in kind with evidence.

Evidence? Of what? They are recognized and treated as distinct concepts by lay people and scientists. You can show all the evidence you want that sex is set at birth. That is apropos of nothing. 

Words themselves only have meaning because of social consensus. Accordingly, the only real evidence that is relevant for this debate is how people use the terms. I've already provided you one scientific article demonstrating those differences (and actually discussing them). This very thread is evidence that many people disagree with your view of the terms. You've all been provided evidence from medical providers (e.g., Mayo Clinic) that recognize gender and sex as distinct concepts. And here are definitions from Merriam Webster:

"Definition of gender

 (Entry 1 of 2)

1a: a subclass within a grammatical class (such as noun, pronoun, adjective, or verb) of a language that is partly arbitrary but also partly based on distinguishable characteristics (such as shape, social rank, manner of existence, or sex) and that determines agreement with and selection of other words or grammatical forms

b: membership of a word or a grammatical form in such a subclass

c: an inflectional form (see INFLECTION sense 3a) showing membership in such a subclass

2a: SEX the feminine gender

b: the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

c: GENDER IDENTITY Those seeking state driver's licenses in Massachusetts are closer to being able to designate their gender as "X'' instead of "male" or "female." The state Senate has overwhelmingly approved a bill that would allow for the nonbinary designation on licenses.— Steve LeBlancFacebook's message was clear when the social media network added new gender options for users on Thursday: the company is sensitive to a wide spectrum of gender identity and wants users to feel accommodated no matter where they see themselves on that spectrum.— Katy Steinmetz"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gender

"Definition of sex

 (Entry 1 of 2)

1: either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures

2: the sum of the structural, functional, and behavioral characteristics of organisms that are involved in reproduction marked by the union of gametes and that distinguish males and females

3a: sexually motivated phenomena or behavior

b: SEXUAL INTERCOURSE

4: GENITALIA"

QED.

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Dahobbs

[hobbes2702 12844]

11 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Here is an interesting read:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5824932/

But I'm not sure what evidence you want to discuss. Gender and sex are recognized as a distinct concepts for humans by pretty much anyone who studies either. You want to ignore that distinction because . . . I guess you find it inconvenient? I don't really understand your reasoning, but it makes discussion impossible. 

Yea no point in any debate. He can’t agree on the basic facts surrounding the debate therefor no need to debate him. You can’t just ignore the facts because they disagree with your uninformed opinion.

[Parliament 14138]

I am a cisgender male who identifies as a Male who likes chicks.

Am I allowed to poop in women's restrooms?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pokemon said:

Everything you said is infuriating selfish bullshit. Woe is you for being so put upon by another's existence. It must be exhausting for you having to be so damn "polite" all the time. I mean wouldn't it be great if you could be as rotten, dismissive and disrespectful as you want to be. I'm sorry your free speech is so infringed. How dare people nuisance you with their existential vanities.

Conversely, for some, being polite isn't enough.

 

I am somehow dissing them by not embracing/ celebrating their expression of themselves.

 

Much in the same way folks are sick of religion being shoved down everyone's throats, this dogma is equally boring and inconsequential if everyone just moves the fuck along and lives their lives.

Don't accept discrimination.  Don't expect parades and shit.  just be who the fuck you are.

 

 

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

1 minute ago, slorch said:

I am somehow dissing them by not embracing/ celebrating their expression of themselves.

How would anyone know what your thoughts about it are? Literally the only way someone would know is you being impolite.

No one cares if you either embrace or celebrate the transgendered and you are never asked to do either.

[ztejas 43266]

1 minute ago, Pokemon said:

It's not about self expression. It's about selfhood. Nobody is demanding a parade, just civil rights.

What civil rights are transgenders lacking that others aren't?

[Spankytoes 1736]

21 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Yep, it's how you know he's not interested in a serious discussion from the start. In his initial response in this thread he declares that he's not interested in a "semantics" argument about how gender and sex aren't interchangeable terms. It's therefore impossible to engage in an actual discussion on the transgendered issue considering the entire concept of transgendered people is based on the fact that gender and sex aren't interchangeable.

But pointing that out just means you're not respecting his different viewpoint so you're the bigot and he's the victim.

I’ll work on my responses, but know your context before starting in on your tired ramblings towards me dude. Those items were discussed in another thread with the OP, which lead to the creation of this thread. There’s no reason to rehash the discussion as we had reached an impass on how we “feel”.

So fuck you, bigot.

[Guest Lobo]

11 minutes ago, Pokemon said:

Nice that you think it's funny to reduce a whole person to a pissing contest.

Was this an accident or the pithiest bathroom joke in the whole thread?

[Asithappens 974]

3 hours ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

All bathrooms should be transgender 

Why? 

I mean, why "should" they?

I can see single-occupant restrooms, or even in some cases non-single-occupant, but why should they all be? That doesn't seem to make much sense. Bathrooms in a boys school? Bathrooms in a convent? Bathrooms in a high school? 

[Bama Chick 28596]

God, how hard is it to just not be an asshole to others?

 

I’m sure those of y’all digging your heels in about this manage to be polite to fans of other football teams in real life. Even though you hate them.

 

And their fan identity doesn’t truly matter in the great scheme of things.

 

But your dick turtles up at the thought of just being fucking polite and referring to people by the pronouns they prefer.

 

You manage it over things that won’t truly hurt another person but you refuse to do it when it’s something fundamental to their identity.

 

All because it’s about private parts and sexuality and you’re either too immature or too prudish or too repressed to just not be a dickface.

 

Ain’t nobody asking you to build a float and join in on a pride parade.

 

Just treat people with kindness.

 

[Telegraph_it 3354]

Lots of thought crimes being committed here. 

Employment I have a difficult time believing is an issue. Perhaps it is for a company with less then 50 employees but anything larger I find difficult to believe. 

The small O&G company I work for added a clause specific to not discriminating against gender identity. 

Bamachick who has talked about being unkind here? When I have to interact with someone in a professional or service setting I don’t go around demanding everyone agree with my outlook on life. I’m polite regardless of whatever that person identifies as. 

[Asithappens 974]

7 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

God, how hard is it to just not be an asshole to others?

You're obviously not a Republican.

I had a prof who later became a woman. He/she was, basically, fucked up. His dad probably did that to him. (per his wife). His kids disowned him/her. His sister tried to get him committed to a psych ward. He wasn't a threat to himself or anybody else, imo. He was an asshole when he was a he. Don't know if got any nicer when he became a she.

But he/she is an n of 1. Not saying that anybody else is like him/her.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Asithappens

[Dahobbs 17447]

10 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

I’ll work on my responses, but know your context before starting in on your tired ramblings towards me dude. Those items were discussed in another thread with the OP, which lead to the creation of this thread. There’s no reason to rehash the discussion as we had reached an impass on how we “feel”.

So fuck you, bigot.

This isn't a feelings issue. The words have different definitions. Sex refers to the biological differences associated with reproduction. Gender, while it can at times be a synonym for sex, in this context it refers to social behavior (see Merriam Webster, aka, the dictionary). If you're not willing to recognize the latter use of the word gender then there isn't anything we can discuss at all. No one in this thread (or anywhere that I'm aware of) disagrees with you regarding the biological nature of sex. 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Dahobbs

[bad_teammate 13132]

 

[TexArcher 37518]

Why do right wingers spend so much time giving a shit what complete strangers do?

I don't care if gay people get married or guys want to become girls or vice versa.  I don't care if people want to have sex with a prostitute.  I don't care if people want to shoot black tar heroin into their eyeballs.  I'm not interested in doing any of those things, but I'm also not interested in what others want to do.

Can you imagine if we had a government that didn't care, either?  If people were, what's the word, free, to do whatever they wanted as long as it didn't hurt anyone else?  Hell, if we stopped making and enforcing stupid laws to limit people's individual freedoms, we could dramatically shrink the size of the federal goverment.  And that's your thing, small government, right conservatives?

I mean, you love liberty and small government, so shouldn't we legalize damn near everything that doesn't hurt anyone else and shrink the government to the point that it defends the borders, paves the roads, puts books in the schools, prints the money, and that's it.  I mean, that's pretty much your entire platform, right?  So why can't you support actually doing that?

[Telegraph_it 3354]

I am against violence toward any human being. No need to add qualifiers. 

[ztejas 43266]

15 minutes ago, Pokemon said:

In Texas you can be arrested for going into a public restroom. In either one.

My x wife can't live in Texas for fear of that. She was born there.

There's so much more. Marriage. Military. Employment. So much more.

How often are people arrested for going into the "wrong" bathroom? There are plenty of establishments in Texas that are moving towards gender neutral bathrooms or already have gender neutral bathrooms. 

I am a male, in both gender and sex, and have used female restrooms on multiple occasions. Not once have I ever thought "Boy I hope I don't get arrested for this". Your ex wife sounds like she (he?) can get over that particular issue. 

Employment? There are plenty of laws already in place regarding hiring discrimination. None of those laws don't apply to transgenders.

The military? Always a murky issue. I'm sure there are good arguments on both sides. 

Marriage? We're working on it. There are plenty of states you can get married in, though, regardless of sex.

"so much more" is bullshit as long as we're talking about actual, bright line civil liberties and not subjective discrimination or societal attitudes. 

 

[ztejas 43266]

1 minute ago, Pokemon said:

Discriminatory agenda leads to an uptick in violence.

Conjecture. Do a little better if you want others to take you as serious as we possibly can. 

[Asithappens 974]

8 minutes ago, Telegraph_it said:

I am against violence toward any human being. No need to add qualifiers. 

Man, that is pacifism to the extreme.

Gandhi would be proud of you.

[Spankytoes 1736]

Ok, I read the two links provided by DD and DaHobbs.

As stated previously, I reject DD’s link as it’s a redefining of terms regarding trans related issues according to the Mayo Clinic, who is not a recognized authority on the subject. (Side note: The “Livestrong” website has the same data posted) It’s simply a breakdown posing as “Facts” with no citation to any scientific study to back up the data. The 2nd link is a splash page and I’m not going to wade around the site looking for something to justify your argument on a Trans-leaning website.

The link DaHobbs posted, as far as I can tell, is an article and not a scientific study. I admit, I didn’t read all 45 pages, so I may have missed a citation. I did try to click on the footnotes but they all linked to other pages where the same article is posted rather than directing to the source material. The reason I reject articles is because it’s a lost cause for meaningful discussion. For every article you post on the pro side, I can post a rebuttal furthering my argument. But, DaHobbs’ later post clarified that he is addressing a social viewpoint, so this is a moot point.

Here are published findings from a study that showed sex differences in the anatomy of the brain present in one-month-old babies: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00429-017-1600-2#citeas The test data, controls and information about the participants are all cited. 

"Using high-resolution structural MRI, we measured subcortical gray and white matter brain volumes in a cohort (N = 143) of 1-month infants and examined characteristics of these volumetric measures throughout this early period of neurodevelopment," reads the study's abstract. "We show that brain volumes undergo age-related changes during the first month of life, with the corresponding patterns of regional asymmetry and sexual dimorphism. Specifically, males have larger total brain volume and volumes differ by sex in regionally specific brain regions, after correcting for total brain volume."

The study also states that their findings suggest such brain differences are "present at birth."

"Our results complement a growing body of work investigating the earliest neurobiological changes associated with development and suggest that asymmetry and sexual dimorphism are present at birth," says the abstract.

If someone can explain to me how society "constructed" such differences in these infants' brains, or can debunk these findings, I'd be all ears.

[ztejas 43266]

"Nope. It's facts."

Well, my work is done here, good luck to others that may follow. 

[David Dennison 18658]

Let's say all of these people just choose to be trans because they want to. They like it. Same with gay people. 

So what?

[Spankytoes 1736]

28 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

God, how hard is it to just not be an asshole to others?

 

I’m sure those of y’all digging your heels in about this manage to be polite to fans of other football teams in real life. Even though you hate them.

 

And their fan identity doesn’t truly matter in the great scheme of things.

 

But your dick turtles up at the thought of just being fucking polite and referring to people by the pronouns they prefer.

 

You manage it over things that won’t truly hurt another person but you refuse to do it when it’s something fundamental to their identity.

 

All because it’s about private parts and sexuality and you’re either too immature or too prudish or too repressed to just not be a dickface.

 

Ain’t nobody asking you to build a float and join in on a pride parade.

 

Just treat people with kindness.

 

It would helpful if you could quote the instances where anyone has advocated for the mistreatment of trans people. I think you’d find that your stump speech is not relevant to the thread.

[Asithappens 974]

This issue won't die down, imo, until the "public" accepts it. And that could take a while. Like with gay marriage. Thank god it seems that we're finally mostly there on that topic.

Imo, what doesn't help facilitate that process is forcing it down people's throats, and by that I mean insulting and ridiculing them. Be polite. Be civil. Make the emphasis on treating all people with respect and dignity (even if some don't deserve it, and that goes both ways). And there will always be some who refuse to accept it. They are mostly religious bigots. Sad.

Now, and this may just be me, but videos of flamboyant drag queens isn't going to help advance the issue. But I could be wrong. Especially for parents with young kids. 

[Spankytoes 1736]

29 minutes ago, Pokemon said:

Don't address me ever again. Please. I know all I need to know about you.

No one was talking to you or “addressing you”. That’s why I quoted an entirely different poster in my response. 

[Telegraph_it 3354]

5 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Man, that is pacifism to the extreme.

Gandhi would be proud of you.

I do not think it’s pacifism. The law today does not have qualifiers on who violence can be committed towards. I am using a blanket statement the same way Pokémon does when he throws out discrimination. 

[David Dennison 18658]

2 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

It would helpful if you could quote the instances where anyone has advocated for the mistreatment of trans people. I think you’d find that your stump speech is not relevant to the thread.

Should trans individuals be allowed to use restroom facilities of their respective genders?

[Asithappens 974]

Science and "facts/data" don't matter, imo. B/c mostly "science" here (and religion) is just used as a smokescreen to justify bigotry. Like saying that gays are/were mentally ill or genetically inferior. 

Treat the person the way they want to be treated. That's kinda how a civil society should be run.

[David Dennison 18658]

Just now, Asithappens said:

Science and "facts/data" don't matter, imo. B/c mostly "science" here (and religion) is just used as a smokescreen to justify bigotry. Like saying that gays are/were mentally ill or genetically inferior. 

Treat the person the way they want to be treated. That's kinda how a civil society should be run.

Absolutely. It also doesn't matter, IMO, if someone is born that way. It can be 100% by choice and it still shouldn't matter one bit.

[Asithappens 974]

Just now, Telegraph_it said:

I do not think it’s pacifism. The law today does not have qualifiers on who violence can be committed towards. I am using a blanket statement the same way Pokémon does when he throws out discrimination. 

If you're speaking very generally, then I'm with you. 

[Henry Hill 3156]

Is Rachel Dolezal black?

[Spankytoes 1736]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Let's say all of these people just choose to be trans because they want to. They like it. Same with gay people. 

So what?

Exactly, so what? I have zero issue with gays getting married, showing PDA or even fucking in my house. That doesn’t mean that my inability to empathize with them makes me intolerant. Same with Trans people. If they want to piss in the ladies room, fine. I find their lifestyle weird and creepy, but I’m a Lib on those social issues. It doesn’t affect my life. My inability to empathize with them, or agree that they are actually a woman, means nothing if the goal is social acceptance. I’m not part of that problem. Having Jewish friends doesn’t mean that I need to adapt to a bacon-free lifestyle to be supportive of their religious beliefs. I agree, there are some in my camp that do not share my openness. I’m just failing to understand why I am getting lumped into this category when I’ve repeatedly expressed my personal viewpoint very clearly. That’s typical leftish bullshit tactic to take a moral authority on an argument that was never being insinuated.

[David Dennison 18658]

1 minute ago, Spankytoes said:

Exactly, so what? I have zero issue with gays getting married, showing PDA or even fucking in my house. That doesn’t mean that my inability to empathize with them makes me intolerant. Same with Trans people. If they want to piss in the ladies room, fine. I find their lifestyle weird and creepy, but I’m a Lib on those social issues. It doesn’t affect my life. My inability to empathize with them, or agree that they are actually a woman, means nothing if the goal is social acceptance. I’m not part of that problem. Having Jewish friends doesn’t mean that I need to adapt to a bacon-free lifestyle to be supportive of their religious beliefs. I agree, there are some in my camp that do not share my openness. I’m just failing to understand why I am getting lumped into this category when I’ve repeatedly expressed my personal viewpoint very clearly. That’s typical leftish bullshit tactic to take a moral authority on an argument that was never being insinuated.

You are part of the problem. 

[Dahobbs 17447]

21 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

If someone can explain to me how society "constructed" such differences in these infants' brains, or can debunk these findings, I'd be all ears.

You obviously haven't read anything. Words have meaning because we imbue them with meaning. Society has reached a consensus that gender and sex have different meanings. No one is arguing that one's biologic sex is changeable (again, absent extreme DNA manipulation). Why can't you comprehend this? 

Look, if it makes you feel better about yourself, just use a different word. Every time you see one of us say "gender," replace it with "behavioral characteristics." 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Dahobbs

[bad_teammate 13132]

33 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

Why do right wingers spend so much time giving a shit what complete strangers do?

They literally operate along a fear-based mindset.

[Asithappens 974]

It will be interesting, at least interesting to me, to see if the the elderly demographic changes their mind as time goes on. 

The current elderly group? Probably no chance to change their minds. 

But what about today's youngsters/middle-agers? Will they turn bigot when they get old? I hope not.

[Spankytoes 1736]

13 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Should trans individuals be allowed to use restroom facilities of their respective genders?

If we’re going to have a Q&A, let’s do it on equal footing. 1-2 sentences generally addressing things followed by rapid fire questions isn’t helpful. Let’s focus on what we have already, especially since I directly used this example already stating that I am fine with that. (Albeit, you may not have seen it before posing the question) 

[David Dennison 18658]

6 minutes ago, Henry Hill said:

Is Rachel Dolezal black?

Some people say yes. Some people say no. Most black people, as far as I can tell, fall in the latter category, mainly because being black in America means experiencing anti-black racism, something that Rachel Dolezal has not experienced.

[ztejas 43266]

14 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Let's say all of these people just choose to be trans because they want to. They like it. Same with gay people. 

So what?

I tend to believe a lot of "trans" people choose to do so. Or it's a mental thing that breaks at somepoint. I don't buy that you are a "gender" at birth. 

So what? So that's fine. I don't have a problem with it. 

Here are my exceptions, though:

1. I'll call you what you want, but don't get upset with me for getting it "wrong" if the line is clearly blurry.

2. You don't get special treatment like you would if you were disabled. If you consider it a mental health issue, then I will try to be sympathetic to your cause. If not, grab a cup of coffee and take a seat with everyone else.

3. Don't, and I mean fucking don't, force it on kids. Let them be kids. Maybe Johnny feels like a girl sometimes. Maybe he's gay. But let him go through puberty first before he's subjected to therapy or hormone treatmant or any of that. Kids get confused about a lot of shit and that's fine. You can let them be confused while they figure it out. 

[Telegraph_it 3354]

8 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You are part of the problem. 

How is Spanky part of the problem? Because Spanky doesn’t think how you want him to think? 

You call everything racist. I think you are the problem. My statement just as valid as yours. 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Telegraph_it

[David Dennison 18658]

2 minutes ago, Telegraph_it said:

How is Spanky part of the problem? Because Spanky doesn’t think how you want him to think? 

You call everything racist. I think you are the problem. My statement just as valid as yours. 

I call racists racist. Don't be racist if you don't want to be called out. 

Spanky is part of the problem because he chooses not to empathize with others who are different. That's on him.

Edited February 14, 2019 by David Dennison

[Spankytoes 1736]

3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

You obviously haven't read anything. Words have meaning because we imbue them with meaning. Society has reached a consensus that gender and sex have different meanings. No one is arguing that one's biologic sex is changeable (again, absent extreme DNA manipulation). Why can't you comprehend this? 

I can’t comprehend this is because it’s arbitrary on a case by case argument that has no basis in reality. If I identify with Canadian culture, I cannot cross the border without a passport simply because I subjectively feel Canadian. I can refer to my live-in girlfriend as my “wife”, which is completely acceptable on a social level. But I am not legally recognized as being married for tax purposes or health benefits. (Yep, I get common law)

My argument has always been, since the begging of the thread, that I am perfectly fine calling a trans woman a “she”. I do not accept that she is actually a woman because she cannot change her biological data to be a woman. Based on your response, we are 99% in agreement on this. Where we disagree if that no one is arguing that your biological sex can be changed.

[David Dennison 18658]

2 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

I can’t comprehend this is because it’s arbitrary on a case by case argument that has no basis in reality. If I identify with Canadian culture, I cannot cross the border without a passport simply because I subjectively feel Canadian. I can refer to my live-in girlfriend as my “wife”, which is completely acceptable on a social level. But I am not legally recognized as being married for tax purposes or health benefits. (Yep, I get common law)

My argument has always been, since the begging of the thread, that I am perfectly fine calling a trans woman a “she”. I do not accept that she is actually a woman because she cannot change her biological data to be a woman. Based on your response, we are 99% in agreement on this. Where we disagree if that no one is arguing that your biological sex can be changed.

And that's why you are part of the problem. 

[Spankytoes 1736]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I call racists racist. Don't be racist if you don't want to be called out. 

Spanky is part of the problem because he chooses not to empathize with others who are different. That's on him.

Please quote my posts to back up that assertion. Show me where I’m racist or fail to accept others that are different. Of course I don’t “empathize” with those that are different. It’s an impossible feat. The word you are looking for is “sympathize”, which is a false statement.

[David Dennison 18658]

Just now, Spankytoes said:

Please quote my posts to back up that assertion. Show me where I’m racist or fail to accept others that are different. Of course I don’t “empathize” with those that are different. It’s an impossible feat. The word you are looking for is “sympathize”, which is a false statement.

No, it isn't. 

[Spankytoes 1736]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

No, it isn't. 

Yeah, I’m not going to go down the rabbit hole with you. It has the intellectual level of “I know you are, but what am I?” I speak troll.