All Things Transgendered Thread

[David Dennison 18658]

Just now, Spankytoes said:

Yeah, I’m not going to go down the rabbit hole with you. It has the intellectual level of “I know you are, but what am I?” I speak troll.

That's because you can't win the argument. Of course I don’t “empathize” with those that are different. It’s an impossible feat. That's absurd.

[Spankytoes 1736]

17 minutes ago, ztejas said:

I tend to believe a lot of "trans" people choose to do so. Or it's a mental thing that breaks at somepoint. I don't buy that you are a "gender" at birth. 

So what? So that's fine. I don't have a problem with it. 

Here are my exceptions, though:

1. I'll call you what you want, but don't get upset with me for getting it "wrong" if the line is clearly blurry.

2. You don't get special treatment like you would if you were disabled. If you consider it a mental health issue, then I will try to be sympathetic to your cause. If not, grab a cup of coffee and take a seat with everyone else.

3. Don't, and I mean fucking don't, force it on kids. Let them be kids. Maybe Johnny feels like a girl sometimes. Maybe he's gay. But let him go through puberty first before he's subjected to therapy or hormone treatmant or any of that. Kids get confused about a lot of shit and that's fine. You can let them be confused while they figure it out. 

I disagree on a few of your points, but the overall message is sound. I don’t get the PC culture we live in today. I admit it, I hope both of my sons are straight and will bear grandchildren one day. Yes, I agree that a gay couple can be fine parents and I would love my sons regardless of their sexual orientation. But, I have a clear preference. Somewhere along the way, this became a controversial viewpoint making me intolerant.

Ironically, this is exactly how Trump was elected. 

[David Dennison 18658]

Just now, Spankytoes said:

I disagree on a few of your points, but the overall message is sound. I don’t get the PC culture we live in today. I admit it, I hope both of my sons are straight and will bear grandchildren one day. Yes, I agree that a gay couple can be fine parents and I would love my sons regardless of their sexual orientation. But, I have a clear preference. Somewhere along the way, this became a controversial viewpoint making me intolerant.

Ironically, this is exactly how Trump was elected. 

Your point of view is intolerant.

[DaysOff 7853]

I am a cisgender male who identifies as a Male who likes chicks.

Am I allowed to poop in women's restrooms?

There's a sweet Trans labeled bathroom at the baggage claim level at the San Diego Lindbergh airport. I've used it.

[Asithappens 974]

2 minutes ago, Pokemon said:

Is homosexuality a sin? 

We are getting to the point (thank the old gods) where more and more people don't really care how the Christian bible defines "sin".

So yeah, homosexuality is a sin, according to that book. But so are a lot of other things. Things that don't make sense now (or probably even then). 

So, who cares if it is a sin? It's no more morally wrong than heterosexuality. Can it be morally wrong? Yes. Just like heterosexuality.

My point is that this topic should be discussed outside of a Christian context. The evangelicals can go fuck themselves. Would that be a sin?

[TexArcher 37518]

10 minutes ago, Pokemon said:

Is homosexuality a sin? 

Be honest. Don't lie before God (that's a sin).

No.  There's no such thing as a sin.

There's right, there's wrong, and there's neutral.  Homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is neutral.

This is really obvious to anyone who isn't brainwashed or insecure enough to feel threatened by people who are different.

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by TexArcher

[David Dennison 18658]

1 minute ago, TexArcher said:

No.  There's no such thing as a sin.

There's right, there's wrong, and there's neutral.  Homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is neutral.

This is really obvious to anyone who isn't brainwashed or insecure enough to feel threatened by people who are different.

Right and wrong is also relative and highly contextual.

[TexArcher 37518]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Right and wrong is also relative and highly contextual.

Usually, but not always.  Rape is always wrong.

Putting homosexuality in the same category as rape (a sin), is an incredibly archaic mindset.  Not that you're doing that, or Pokemon.  But anyone who admits to believing that rape and homosexuality are both sins is basically advertising that his mind isn't any more evolved than an average middle eastern goat herder's from 3000 years ago.

[Henry Hill 3156]

Does believing you’re something make it so? 

[burntorangebongos 10681]

2 hours ago, Spankytoes said:

Bingo

This is a thread discussing trans people and our view of such. I specifically posted that I would be polite to a trans person and call them by their preferred pronoun. Why? Because it’s the polite thing to do.

Yet, not one time has the guy presented anything substantive based on facts, studies, research, etc. that we can discuss. He throws a hissy fit, stamps his feet and hurls poor attempts at insults based on things I never said. Because I don’t agree with his viewpoint, I’m a bigot. He is right about that one though. I do not give a shit if he thinks that I’m bigoted because I know that it’s an incorrect assessment. IDGAF about trans people or their plight for acceptance provided that you aren’t asking me to deny my intellectual honesty based on scientific facts.

Sometimes in the uterus, the fetus is exposed to too much of a hormone in their development at the wrong time. So if I am an XX but I get a healthy dose of the testosterone that is in my mother's body at a certain time, that chemistry is going to alter my development. It won't alter my outer genitalia but it might back me more male like, to a point where I won't ever feel comfortable in my girl body. Not all babies cook the same way.

Some babies are XY and too much of a female hormone is introduced at a certain time in their development. It is what that lady pediatric urologist is going to deal with if enough hormone exposure alters their outer genitalia. Not all babies cook the same way. 

Spanky, I'm glad nothing like that happened to your kids where they would have experienced gender dysphoria through no fault of their own but the hand that nature dealt them. You would have loved them, I don't doubt about that but it would have been hard for you and harder for them to know that you would never view them as they view themselves.  

I'm not a scientist so my explanation is very rudimentary and coming from a remembrance of what I read in a National Geographic article a few years back. I also read one about epigenetics mentioned up thread that talked about some fascinating shit that contributes to when a gene is turned on or not. Holy shit, it is a miracle that we aren't even more diverse than we are, there are so many factors at play that influences the development of a fetus.

But bottom line Spanky, it is obvious that you have got your life experience informing you the way it does. If you had had that kid in your life, you would be different. Again, I'm glad for their sake that it all worked out for the best.

[Dahobbs 17447]

52 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

I can’t comprehend this is because it’s arbitrary on a case by case argument that has no basis in reality. If I identify with Canadian culture, I cannot cross the border without a passport simply because I subjectively feel Canadian. I can refer to my live-in girlfriend as my “wife”, which is completely acceptable on a social level. But I am not legally recognized as being married for tax purposes or health benefits. (Yep, I get common law)

My argument has always been, since the begging of the thread, that I am perfectly fine calling a trans woman a “she”. I do not accept that she is actually a woman because she cannot change her biological data to be a woman. Based on your response, we are 99% in agreement on this. Where we disagree if that no one is arguing that your biological sex can be changed.

Can you understand that gender has a different definition than sex per the dictionary? Literally that is all I am asking you to concede. It is mind boggling to me that you cannot.

[Spankytoes 1736]

12 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Can you understand that gender has a different definition than sex per the dictionary? Literally that is all I am asking you to concede. It is mind boggling to me that you cannot.

Yes

[burntorangebongos 10681]

2 hours ago, Pokemon said:

Don't address me ever again. Please. I know all I need to know about you.

Actually that spanky response was to Huckleberry who has made him his huckleberry a time or two before. Thus, the vitriol.

[Telegraph_it 3354]

40 minutes ago, Pokemon said:

Is homosexuality a sin? 

Be honest. Don't lie before God (that's a sin).

How predictable. Yes, it is a sin. Why would that matter? I don’t feel any superiority over someone else because I haven’t had sex with a man and they have. I mean I take it as a compliment if a gay man finds me attractive. I am a male after all; someone being attracted to you is never a bad thing.

Christianity has been increadible for me and led me out of some dark places. I’m very thankful that one of my roommates invited me to the Austin Stone while in school. 

Homesexual people or trans people don’t need me to condone or champion their life choices. I am a normal, generally good person and I can get along with anyone as long as they are respectful to me when I’m respectful to them.

 

[David Dennison 18658]

10 minutes ago, Telegraph_it said:

How predictable. Yes, it is a sin. Why would that matter? I don’t feel any superiority over someone else because I haven’t had sex with a man and they have. I mean I take it as a compliment if a gay man finds me attractive. I am a male after all; someone being attracted to you is never a bad thing.

Christianity has been increadible for me and led me out of some dark places. I’m very thankful that one of my roommates invited me to the Austin Stone while in school. 

Homesexual people or trans people don’t need me to condone or champion their life choices. I am a normal, generally good person and I can get along with anyone as long as they are respectful to me when I’m respectful to them.

 

They are normal, too. 

[Spankytoes 1736]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

They are normal, too. 

They are. 

Would you have sex with a transgendered woman that was interested in men? 

[David Dennison 18658]

Just now, Spankytoes said:

They are. 

Would you have sex with a transgendered woman that was interested in men? 

No. Nor would I have sex with a man. It's just not my thing.

[Spankytoes 1736]

Just now, David Dennison said:

No. Nor would I have sex with a man. It's just not my thing.

You’re part of the problem then. I fail to recognize them as a woman as do you. You simply bask in the social currency of being socially progressive while still harboring regressive views. That’s is why I can’t take you seriously. Either a transgendered woman is a woman or she is not. 

[David Dennison 18658]

1 minute ago, Spankytoes said:

You’re part of the problem then. I fail to recognize them as a woman as do you. You simply bask in the social currency of being socially progressive while still harboring regressive views. That’s is why I can’t take you seriously. Either a transgendered woman is a woman or she is not. 

I guess that means I should want to have sex with all women.

Good work, Sherlock. You cracked the case.

 

[Spankytoes 1736]

Just now, David Dennison said:

I guess that means I should want to have sex with all women.

Good work, Sherlock. You cracked the case.

 

Explain the difference. Is a transgendered woman with a penis any less of a woman than a man that has had gender reassignment surgery or a biological woman? I didn’t provide a single example and you made a blanket assessment that it’s a non-starter for you because it’s not “your thing”. That’s pretty intolerant if you are arguing that gender is malleable. It’s not comparable to being homosexual based on your understanding of social constructs.

Perhaps there is, in fact, a difference?

[TexArcher 37518]

12 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

I fail to recognize them as a woman as do you.

Who are you to recognize or dismiss anyone else's status as anything?

 

12 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

Either a transgendered woman is a woman or she is not. 

Who cares?  

What possible difference can this make in your life?

[David Dennison 18658]

1 minute ago, Spankytoes said:

Explain the difference. Is a transgendered woman with a penis any less of a woman than a man that has had gender reassignment surgery or a biological woman? I didn’t provide a single example and you made a blanket assessment that it’s a non-starter for you because it’s not “your thing”. That’s pretty intolerant if you are arguing that gender is malleable. It’s not comparable to being homosexual based on your understanding of social constructs.

Perhaps there is, in fact, a difference?

Sure there's a difference. No one ever said there wasn't.

But a transgender woman is still a woman.

[Spankytoes 1736]

Just now, TexArcher said:

Who are you to recognize or dismiss anyone else's status as anything?

 

Who cares?  

What possible difference can this make in your life?

Asked and answered several times already. 

[Spankytoes 1736]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Sure there's a difference. No one ever said there wasn't.

But a transgender woman is still a woman.

But you said earlier...

Never mind. It’s not worth the effort.

[David Dennison 18658]

Just now, Spankytoes said:

But you said earlier...

Never mind. It’s not worth the effort.

Because I didn't say what you're trying to argue. That's why.

[TexArcher 37518]

Just now, Spankytoes said:

But you said earlier...

Never mind. It’s not worth the effort.

You're right - it's not worth it.  You should delete your account, cancel your internet, and never share another opinion in public.

[Spankytoes 1736]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Because I didn't say what you're trying to argue. That's why.

What you said is doubletalk and nonsense. Your definitions change when it benefits your argument with absolutely zero data to back it up. That’s called an opinion yet you present it as factual evidence. That’s why it’s not worth the effort.

[Spankytoes 1736]

6 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

You're right - it's not worth it.  You should delete your account, cancel your internet, and never share another opinion in public.

It’s under advisement. Thanks

[Bama Chick 28596]

I recognize you and Donald Trump as men.

Doesn’t mean I’d fuck you.

[David Dennison 18658]

Just now, Spankytoes said:

What you said is doubletalk and nonsense. Your definitions change when it benefits your argument with absolutely zero data to back it up. That’s called an opinion yet you present it as factual evidence. That’s why it’s not worth the effort.

It's not worth the effort because you aren't making a point. It is completely irrelevant whether or not you think a trans individual is what they say they are. 

[Henry Hill 3156]

Good, healthy debate. Neither side is apparently making any points and nobody is worth the other’s time. Classic CR.

[bad_teammate 13132]

49 minutes ago, Spankytoes said:

Would you have sex with a transgendered woman that was interested in men? 

lol in what universe does this have anything to do with legitimacy or status of womanhood? This makes no god damned sense at all.

[Spankytoes 1736]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It's not worth the effort because you aren't making a point. It is completely irrelevant whether or not you think a trans individual is what they say they are. 

Which has been my stance for the entirety of this thread. My opinion, with basis in facts and science, is wholly irrelevant to the issue. Yet, my refusal to acknowledge your opinion, based on social conjecture, has devolved into the creation of this thread. We are 99% on the same page on this issue. Our difference is whether or not a trans woman is actually a woman. Your response is that yes, a trans woman is a woman, but no, you would not fuck one because it’s not your thing...which I assume to mean because she has a penis and you are straight. So you are double talking to cover your bases in an attempt to lead credence to a silly argument based on parsing terms.

[David Dennison 18658]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

lol in what universe does this have anything to do with legitimacy or status of womanhood? This makes no god damned sense at all.

It makes complete sense when you realize he conflates gender with sex. 

[David Dennison 18658]

1 minute ago, Spankytoes said:

Which has been my stance for the entirety of this thread. My opinion, with basis in facts and science, is wholly irrelevant to the issue. Yet, my refusal to acknowledge your opinion, based on social conjecture, has devolved into the creation of this thread. We are 99% on the same page on this issue. Our difference is whether or not a trans woman is actually a woman. Your response is that yes, a trans woman is a woman, but no, you would not fuck one because it’s not your thing...which I assume to mean because she has a penis and you are straight. So you are double talking to cover your bases in an attempt to lead credence to a silly argument based on parsing terms.

Your opinion is based on the facts and science you agree with. You disregard the facts and science you don't agree with. 

[Spankytoes 1736]

11 minutes ago, Bama Chick said:

I recognize you and Donald Trump as men.

Doesn’t mean I’d fuck you.

Except we ARE men as evidenced by our dicks. Solid logic

[BradInATX 9208]

I've always thought transgenders were a bit strange, but I can't imagine spending more than half a second giving a shit what any of them call themselves or do with their lives. Certainly can't imagine devoting as much headspace to being anti-them as some, or one, in this thread do. That's a far more concerning and deep neurosis than anything that I've ever seen a transgender demonstrate.

 

People who don't drink

People who don't like dogs

People who give a shit who people fuck or what they call themselves

All in the same category. Don't trust 'em.

Edited February 14, 2019 by BradInATX

[Johnny Sack 8397]

3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Should trans individuals be allowed to use restroom facilities of their respective genders?

Public restrooms, yes.  

Private restrooms, whoever owns the property decides.  If they don’t like it, choose another business. And feel free to slam them on Yelp.  

[Bama Chick 28596]

Except we ARE men as evidenced by our dicks. Solid logic

And women who have gone through gender reassignment surgery have vaginas.

As evidenced by the vaginas you mentioned in your dumb hypothetical.

Your point?

[Spankytoes 1736]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Your opinion is based on the facts and science you agree with. You disregard the facts and science you don't agree with. 

Which you have failed to present for us to discuss or disagree with. I thought we were arguing social terms, not biology? I was told that no one was making the assertion that biological sex could change? Sociology isn’t science...

[Spankytoes 1736]

1 minute ago, Bama Chick said:

 

And women who have gone through gender reassignment surgery have vaginas.

As evidenced by the vaginas you mentioned in your dumb hypothetical.

Your point?

 

And people that wear black socks and sandals at the beach aren’t really 70 year old men because dressing the part doesn’t change biology. Yeah, that point.

[David Dennison 18658]

Just now, Spankytoes said:

Which you have failed to present for us to discuss or disagree with. I thought we were arguing social terms, not biology? I was told that no one was making the assertion that biological sex could change? Sociology isn’t science...

So what you're saying is sociology isn't the scientific study of society and social relationships?

OK. Now I know you're trolling.

[Spankytoes 1736]

6 minutes ago, BradInATX said:

I've always thought transgenders were a bit strange, but I can't imagine spending more than half a second giving a shit what any of them call themselves or do with their lives. Certainly can't imagine devoting as much headspace to being anti-them as some, or one, in this thread do. That's a far more concerning and deep neurosis than any transgender leanings are.

Except no one is doing that. At all.

The “debate” is because I don’t recognize a transgendered woman as an actual woman and how this makes me a bigot. You are about the 12th person to falsely equate an argument that hasn’t been made.

[BradInATX 9208]

1 minute ago, Spankytoes said:

Except no one is doing that. At all.

The “debate” is because I don’t recognize a transgendered woman as an actual woman and how this makes me a bigot. You are about the 12th person to falsely equate an argument that hasn’t been made.

I haven't read any of your posts more than skimming and seeing you parsing through individual citations in articles and whatnot. I don't care to debate the finer points with you. I'm just saying you've got a weird, weird obsession with this debate. It's strange and neurotic and concerning and you need hobbies.

Edited February 14, 2019 by BradInATX

[Spankytoes 1736]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

So what you're saying is sociology isn't the scientific study of society and social relationships?

OK. Now I know you're trolling.

I’m saying that Socialogy isn’t a particularly expert field. I am a capable of reading a Socialogical report despite not having a PhD. in the field. Sociology is also opinion based on sample studies as interpreted by the author of the report. You are stating opinions, I am stating scientific facts. Tomato, tomatoe apparently.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

I have a lot of sympathy for transgenders.  It’s got to be tough dealing with that war inside your head.  I don’t think anyone would choose that for themselves or their children.  

Explains the high suicide rate.  

[Spankytoes 1736]

1 minute ago, BradInATX said:

I haven't read any of your posts more than skimming and seeing you parsing through individual citations in articles and whatnot. I don't care to debate the finer points with you. I'm just saying you've got a weird, weird obsession with this debate. It's strange and neurotic and concerning and you need hobbies.

It’s in my first response in page 1. It’s in several other responses littered in the thread. My alleged obsession is also addressed multiple times. 

[David Dennison 18658]

Just now, Spankytoes said:

I’m saying that Socialogy isn’t a particularly expert field. I am a capable of reading a Socialogical report despite not having a PhD. in the field. Sociology is also opinion based on sample studies as interpreted by the author of the report. You are stating opinions, I am stating scientific facts. Tomato, tomatoe apparently.

You don't know what science is, do you? You think science is a body of facts.

Wow.

[Henry Hill 3156]

For those more knowledgeable on this topic than me: when does a transgendered person assume the opposite gender? Is it based on individual choice, by birth or does it happen differently for different people? And are you able to switch back once you’ve transitioned? I honestly don’t know. Interesting topic.

[Spankytoes 1736]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

You don't know what science is, do you? You think science is a body of facts.

Wow.

And you think identifying with and feeling like a woman makes you an actual woman. One that you wouldn’t ever fuck because it’s not your thing. Still a woman though...but not really.