New Car Deal Thread of Frustration

[Dbeasy 15092]

Shag had a great thread on negotiating for a new car. Even a few folks that worked at dealerships recommended various approaches: phone, in person, buying services, etc. So what is the best approach?

 

I used to have great success using phone negotiations among five dealers and relaying upon solid online information. However it is much tougher today. There are only a few dealers, in many cases two, and the online data has been “adjusted” to be more favorable for web sites’ customers, the dealers. Also, the buying ranges have in many cases become really wide. For example, Toyota has been known to sell below invoice now on occasion.

 

So, what is the best approach these days? We are in the market for a Lexus or possibly Toyota.

[Horn of Gabriel 1671]

New cars are easiest.  

1) Locate every dealer of the make you're going after in a radius you're willing to go to, e.g. 100 miles, or "All of Texas."  Call all of them and ask for their "Internet Sales" department.  Get that guy's email address.

2) Go to toyota.com and spec out the exact car you want, every detail - it's new so make it how you want it

3) Email that spec to every address you collected (be sure to CC: them so they can see that they are competing) with this note: "Hi, I'm a cash buyer looking for a 2019 4Runner with the following spec (see attached).  I will make a decision on who I buy through in the next several days, please send me your best offer on this specific model and options (no changes).

3a -  optional) After you get a bunch of responses, narrow it down to the top 3 and email back #2 and 3 with #1's offer with this message: "Hi, you're currently in my top 3, but I received an offer for the same model/options from another dealer for $xx,xxx.  I'd prefer to use you for this purchase - can you beat this deal?"

4) Make a decision taking into account price, location, dealer reputation, etc

5) Drive there and hand them a cheque, leave with your new vehicle

 

You can also use online services like TrueCar to get in the ballpark.

Another option is have UFCU or Costco do all this for you - they offer that as a service.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Horn of Gabriel

[Nonbryan 173]

5 minutes ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

New cars are easiest.  

1) Locate every dealer of the make you're going after in a radius you're willing to go to, e.g. 100 miles, or "All of Texas."  Call all of them and ask for their "Internet Sales" department.  Get that guy's email address.

2) Go to toyota.com and spec out the exact car you want, every detail - it's new so make it how you want it

3) Email that spec to every address you collected (be sure to CC: them so they can see that they are competing) with this note: "Hi, I'm a cash buyer looking for a 2019 4Runner with the following spec (see attached).  I will make a decision on who I buy through in the next several days, please send me your best offer on this specific model and options (no changes).

3a -  optional) After you get a bunch of responses, narrow it down to the top 3 and email back #2 and 3 with #1's offer with this message: "Hi, you're currently in my top 3, but I received an offer for the same model/options from another dealer for $xx,xxx.  I'd prefer to use you for this purchase - can you beat this deal?"

4) Make a decision taking into account price, location, dealer reputation, etc

5) Drive there and hand them a cheque, leave with your new vehicle

 

You can also use online services like TrueCar to get in the ballpark.

Another option is have UFCU or Costco do all this for you - they offer that as a service.

We just bought a new car and we followed the last 2 lines from Horn's advice....True Car and Costco.  I found buying a new car to be wayyyy easier than it used to be.

[Sandman 3412]

1 hour ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

New cars are easiest.  

1) Locate every dealer of the make you're going after in a radius you're willing to go to, e.g. 100 miles, or "All of Texas."  Call all of them and ask for their "Internet Sales" department.  Get that guy's email address.

2) Go to toyota.com and spec out the exact car you want, every detail - it's new so make it how you want it

3) Email that spec to every address you collected (be sure to CC: them so they can see that they are competing) with this note: "Hi, I'm a cash buyer looking for a 2019 4Runner with the following spec (see attached).  I will make a decision on who I buy through in the next several days, please send me your best offer on this specific model and options (no changes).

3a -  optional) After you get a bunch of responses, narrow it down to the top 3 and email back #2 and 3 with #1's offer with this message: "Hi, you're currently in my top 3, but I received an offer for the same model/options from another dealer for $xx,xxx.  I'd prefer to use you for this purchase - can you beat this deal?"

4) Make a decision taking into account price, location, dealer reputation, etc

5) Drive there and hand them a cheque, leave with your new vehicle

 

You can also use online services like TrueCar to get in the ballpark.

Another option is have UFCU or Costco do all this for you - they offer that as a service.

I tried a similar tactic and every dealer I contacted told me they couldn't talk about price or anything unless I was willing to come in person and talk to them. Perhaps they've grown tired of this game, I don't know. I told them I wasn't coming down to fuck around, that I wanted to buy a car today and they still didn't budge. I did not buy a car.

[Gil Bang 26020]

2 hours ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

New cars are easiest.  

1) Locate every dealer of the make you're going after in a radius you're willing to go to, e.g. 100 miles, or "All of Texas."  Call all of them and ask for their "Internet Sales" department.  Get that guy's email address.

2) Go to toyota.com and spec out the exact car you want, every detail - it's new so make it how you want it

3) Email that spec to every address you collected (be sure to CC: them so they can see that they are competing) with this note: "Hi, I'm a cash buyer looking for a 2019 4Runner with the following spec (see attached).  I will make a decision on who I buy through in the next several days, please send me your best offer on this specific model and options (no changes).

3a -  optional) After you get a bunch of responses, narrow it down to the top 3 and email back #2 and 3 with #1's offer with this message: "Hi, you're currently in my top 3, but I received an offer for the same model/options from another dealer for $xx,xxx.  I'd prefer to use you for this purchase - can you beat this deal?"

4) Make a decision taking into account price, location, dealer reputation, etc

5) Drive there and hand them a cheque, leave with your new vehicle

 

You can also use online services like TrueCar to get in the ballpark.

Another option is have UFCU or Costco do all this for you - they offer that as a service.

"cheque"? 

What are you...a fucking limey?

[Dbeasy 15092]

New cars are easiest.  
1) Locate every dealer of the make you're going after in a radius you're willing to go to, e.g. 100 miles, or "All of Texas."  Call all of them and ask for their "Internet Sales" department.  Get that guy's email address.
2) Go to toyota.com and spec out the exact car you want, every detail - it's new so make it how you want it
3) Email that spec to every address you collected (be sure to CC: them so they can see that they are competing) with this note: "Hi, I'm a cash buyer looking for a 2019 4Runner with the following spec (see attached).  I will make a decision on who I buy through in the next several days, please send me your best offer on this specific model and options (no changes).
3a -  optional) After you get a bunch of responses, narrow it down to the top 3 and email back #2 and 3 with #1's offer with this message: "Hi, you're currently in my top 3, but I received an offer for the same model/options from another dealer for $xx,xxx.  I'd prefer to use you for this purchase - can you beat this deal?"
4) Make a decision taking into account price, location, dealer reputation, etc
5) Drive there and hand them a cheque, leave with your new vehicle
 
You can also use online services like TrueCar to get in the ballpark.
Another option is have UFCU or Costco do all this for you - they offer that as a service.

This is exactly what I used to do. I can’t get the dealers now to move as much on the phone.

[Horn of Gabriel 1671]

42 minutes ago, Sandman said:

I tried a similar tactic and every dealer I contacted told me they couldn't talk about price or anything unless I was willing to come in person and talk to them. Perhaps they've grown tired of this game, I don't know. I told them I wasn't coming down to fuck around, that I wanted to buy a car today and they still didn't budge. I did not buy a car.

Maybe...it's been a few years since I bought a new car this way.  But we bought a new Mustang GT and got a fair deal.  You probably won't save thousands, maybe a few hundred.  Reputable dealers know that new cars are a commodity item; they make their money on upselling you unnecessary shit like window etching.  Most know that nowadays buyers are too educated to get taken to the cleaners and we shop around, so they're more motivated to keep you coming back as a customer than to nail you, IMO.

I did get the "we don't quote over email" responses from quite a few last time; I wrote them back and told them that if they didn't want my business, feel free not to quote me.  I guess some have realized that people shopping this way are price shoppers and they don't want that type of buyer.  Ultimately I think we searched every Ford dealer in Texas, ended up getting responses from 15-20 of them, and ended up buying from a little country dealer in Rockdale, which happened to be the lowest price and also only a 45 minute drive from Austin...

Edited February 20, 2019 by Horn of Gabriel

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4977]

How about for something that isn't as common? The wife wants a Subaru Ascent, but there aren't exactly a whole lot of dealers around. Only like two within an hour's drive.

[Horn of Gabriel 1671]

How about for something that isn't as common? The wife wants a Subaru Ascent, but there aren't exactly a whole lot of dealers around. Only like two within an hour's drive.

Same process but more legwork. Expand to neighboring states or nationwide. Evaluate if the costs of the trip offset the savings. Commodities tend to go at market rate though, so for rare or I demand models the dealers motivation to cut a deal goes down. Just like it would be hard to run that process on a new Ferrari or Porsche.

I once bought a truck off eBay from a dealer in North Carolina. Flew there, drove it home with the wife. Nice stops in Atlanta and New Orleans on the way back. /csb

[The University 851]

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

I tried a similar tactic and every dealer I contacted told me they couldn't talk about price or anything unless I was willing to come in person and talk to them. Perhaps they've grown tired of this game, I don't know. I told them I wasn't coming down to fuck around, that I wanted to buy a car today and they still didn't budge. I did not buy a car.

weird. i've had people lie to me about emailing a better deal/quote (fuck you john eagle) so that they could stall another purchase, but most dealers were willing to at least give me an offer over the phone. if it matters, i was only looking at cars they had in stock.

[SurlyBDR 22843]

There's hardly any profit left in new car sales. It's all in financing. Not sure how that dynamic changes for a cash customer, other than kickbacks/incentives for the dealer.

[EuroHorn 3268]

I found this site to be useful and informative.  It’s been around for a long time and has some really good free Excel downloads to help establish a fair price

 

https://www.carbuyingtips.com/buy-new-car.htm

https://www.carbuyingtips.com/car4.htm

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by EuroHorn

[next2naus 439]

10 hours ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

How about for something that isn't as common? The wife wants a Subaru Ascent, but there aren't exactly a whole lot of dealers around. Only like two within an hour's drive.

I think you are less likely to "get a deal" on a Suby as there not as many dealers and the demand is higher for their cars. 

[tokamak 6441]

It's too bad if dealers are starting to catch on to people calling/emailing everyone in town and buying on price. Is anyone really going to miss the dealership model if and when it finally dies?

A couple other ideas:

• If you google "toyota forums" or whatever, there are probably independent owners forums for any make out there. Lots of them have "prices paid" threads where people post their actual deals. That should give you some idea of what people are actually paying in the real world. I don't trust any website that says it's giving me that information (especially for free). I think those sites exist to drive people to the dealership.
• It's been a few years since I used it, but the Costco program was really straightforward and the price for my particular car wasn't smoking hot, but it was fair. You can use that as a stalking horse if nothing else - there's no obligation or cost.

[Bat Guano 359]

From what I've read, and in my limited experience, the dealership makes most of its new car profit from your trade-in; they always low-ball the trade in offer by a few thousand. This can be the most difficult part of the negotiation; they're willing to bend on most other stuff, but getting more for your trade takes money directly out of their pockets. And vice-versa for you. The only real way to handle it is to get a firm quote from Autotrader or Cars.com or wherever, and be willing to walk away from the deal you've just spent a lot of time and energy negotiating on the new car if they come in too much below that. Of course the convenience of the trade-in process, not having to hassle with selling the car yourself, and the fact that the trade-in counts as a reduction in the price of the new car, thus saving you some money on sales tax, all factor into it too.

[Horn of Gabriel 1671]

If you must negotiate at the dealer (inadvisable) just be aware of their game.  They're trying to push/pull money around, and look at the whole deal - price of the new car, value of your trade, financing terms, etc.  They can make their money in any of these areas.  They try to confuse by mixing them all together.  You want to peel them apart and do them one at a time, as Guano said.

Some dealers still use a variation of the 4-square worksheet: 

...to confuse you.  The ONLY thing you want to negotiate is  the upper-right box: price.  That's why if you're going to go in, you present yourself as a "cash buyer with no trade" regardless of if you are buying on credit or have a trade.  Nail down the cash price.  Then, mention..."now that we've settled on price, I'm thinking of getting rid of my current car.  I could sell it myself or trade it with you, what will you give me?" ...then get a fair trade in value, or accept a lower value for the convenience of not having to deal with Craigslist.  

Last, a week before you walked into the deal, you've already shopped APRs with your local credit union and bank (UFCU and Velocity in Austin have been good to us) and gotten pre-approved for a great rate.  Then you pop that on the sales guy: "Great, now that we've settled on price and trade value, I'll call my credit union and have them cut you a check."  The sales guy will sputter about "I thought you were a cash buyer!?!" "Nope, we have a great-rate of with our credit union, and they will give you cash.  Or a cashier's check.  But if that's a problem for you...I guess I could go down the street to the other dealer?"  Often at this point they will "magically" find that they can offer a rate that is even better than the CU.  Or give you some kind of price break if you finance through them (you can usually pocket that benefit and immediately refi with your credit union).

Pretty good article about how the dealers get you: https://www.consumerreports.org/consumerist/dealerships-rip-you-off-with-the-four-square-heres-how-to-beat-it/

 

[Sbbruin 21888]

I found TrueCar to be pretty useful.  Knowing what other people paid for the same car, and making sure I got mine for the very low end of that spectrum, gave me peace of mind.  We also used Costco's buying service to get a good deal on my wife's car.

On a separate note, I am going to be in the market for a cheap, basic, dependable ride for my soon to be 16 year old son.  Looking for somethign in the $5,000 range under 80K miles if possible.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Sbbruin

[PilotsError 2320]

This just feels like you're repeating what you've read in articles, and not something you've actually done.

[Horn of Gabriel 1671]

Not sure how you or I could prove it either way, but FWIW I have done both the email method and in-dealer negotiation, many times...

[Jerry Callo 8727]

4 minutes ago, Sbbruin said:

I found TrueCar to be pretty useful.  Knowing what other people paid for the same car, and making sure I got mine for the very low end of that spectrum, gave me peace of mind.  We also used Costco's buying service to get a good deal on my wife's car.

On a separate note, I am going to be in the market for a cheap, basic, dependable ride for my soon to be 16 year old son.  Looking for somethign in the $5,000 range under 80K miles if possible.

If you find two, please let me know.  Daughter turns 16 tomorrow.

[Bat Guano 359]

46 minutes ago, Horn of Gabriel said:

If you must negotiate at the dealer (inadvisable) just be aware of their game.  They're trying to push/pull money around, and look at the whole deal - price of the new car, value of your trade, financing terms, etc.  They can make their money in any of these areas.  They try to confuse by mixing them all together.  You want to peel them apart and do them one at a time, as Guano said.

Some dealers still use a variation of the 4-square worksheet: 

...to confuse you.  The ONLY thing you want to negotiate is  the upper-right box: price.  That's why if you're going to go in, you present yourself as a "cash buyer with no trade" regardless of if you are buying on credit or have a trade.  Nail down the cash price.  Then, mention..."now that we've settled on price, I'm thinking of getting rid of my current car.  I could sell it myself or trade it with you, what will you give me?" ...then get a fair trade in value, or accept a lower value for the convenience of not having to deal with Craigslist.  

Last, a week before you walked into the deal, you've already shopped APRs with your local credit union and bank (UFCU and Velocity in Austin have been good to us) and gotten pre-approved for a great rate.  Then you pop that on the sales guy: "Great, now that we've settled on price and trade value, I'll call my credit union and have them cut you a check."  The sales guy will sputter about "I thought you were a cash buyer!?!" "Nope, we have a great-rate of with our credit union, and they will give you cash.  Or a cashier's check.  But if that's a problem for you...I guess I could go down the street to the other dealer?"  Often at this point they will "magically" find that they can offer a rate that is even better than the CU.  Or give you some kind of price break if you finance through them (you can usually pocket that benefit and immediately refi with your credit union).

Pretty good article about how the dealers get you: https://www.consumerreports.org/consumerist/dealerships-rip-you-off-with-the-four-square-heres-how-to-beat-it/

 

Yes, the credit union financing is a must. UFCU can do it Horn's way, above, or you can get a predetermined amount in a check before you even go into the dealer; if you've negotiated a price already (e.g., through the Costco program) this works well. It's what I did last time, about a year and a half ago, and the dealer couldn't come close to the interest rate UFCU gave me. I actually put some of the balance on a cash-back credit card, but the dealer had a limit on how much you could put on a CC.

Edited February 20, 2019 by Bat Guano

[Sbbruin 21888]

Unless they are running a promo interest deal. I got my Infiniti at 1.9% through Nissan Finance

Edited February 20, 2019 by Sbbruin

[Bat Guano 359]

Just now, Sbbruin said:

Unless they are running a promo interest deal. I got my Infiniti at 1.9%

Nope, even then. UFCU was 1.75 at the time.

[Nueces River Rat 5539]

1)  Set the terms of the give and take during the sale.   Don't even let them ask you what kind of monthly payment you are looking for.   Go in saying I'm paying  X amount for this car and if you can match or beat it so I don't have to go to another dealership, let's get it done right now.

2) Talk trade after the price is agreed on the new vehicle.   This is another reason you don't want to disclose what kind of monthly payment you are looking for because disclosing what kind of payment you are looking for, they might want to give you more on the trade vs actually cutting the price of the new car.  

3) If you are getting a deal with good incentives such as cash back/factory rebates as you see advertised, make sure those rebates are applied after the bottom line price is agreed. Some dealers will try to minimize their own discount off MSRP by applying those rebates from that point.

4) Dealer invoice price on the sticker is a good starting point.  Never MSRP. 

5) And like someone posted above, if you can go into a dealership with your check book prepared to write a check, so much the better.   You skip a huge part of the waiting game and if the dealership is trying to meet a quota, that's cash in the door on the spot.   I've done this with used cars and basically  said I have XX amount, make the sale happen.   

 

[Sbbruin 21888]

And don't forget to get the TrueCoat

 

[Lazarus Bocanegra 306]

21 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

 We are in the market for a Lexus or possibly Toyota.

In other words you are in the market for a Toyota or a Toyota with different branding that costs $20,000 more 

[Dbeasy 15092]

I found TrueCar to be pretty useful.  Knowing what other people paid for the same car, and making sure I got mine for the very low end of that spectrum, gave me peace of mind.  We also used Costco's buying service to get a good deal on my wife's car.

On a separate note, I am going to be in the market for a cheap, basic, dependable ride for my soon to be 16 year old son.  Looking for somethign in the $5,000 range under 80K miles if possible.

Just so you are aware, I’ve got friends that code in Truecar and there are shenanigans with what you see on the web site. They figured out long ago who butters their bread.

[Dbeasy 15092]

In other words you are in the market for a Toyota or a Toyota with different branding that costs $20,000 more 

Having owned both for over 20 years, there are differences.

[Bat Guano 359]

53 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Just so you are aware, I’ve got friends that code in Truecar and there are shenanigans with what you see on the web site. They figured out long ago who butters their bread.

Go on....

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2740]

Shenanigans you say?

[Lat22 4017]

Use the VIP process outlined here.

https://www.carprousa.com

[Bigpoppapump 532]

On 2/19/2019 at 8:53 PM, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

How about for something that isn't as common? The wife wants a Subaru Ascent, but there aren't exactly a whole lot of dealers around. Only like two within an hour's drive.

One thing I found with Subaru, at least in Austin, the prices are practically at truecar level.  The sales guy I interacted with was very blunt about selling the cars, said if you come in for a Subaru, you probably already want a Subaru, he's just there to help you finance it.

[Llano Estacado 1257]

Does HLH post here? Never decided if that was real life or an elaborate multi-page months long bit on the scat site.

Sell. Me. A. Car.

[Reagan1k 3024]

On 2/23/2019 at 6:52 PM, Lat22 said:

Use the VIP process outlined here.

https://www.carprousa.com

I used to listen to that guy on KTRH when I was in TX.

He seemed to know what he was talking about - as a former dealership owner he seemed to shoot pretty straight about what kind of deals you can and should expect.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Reagan1k

[HRSchenker 2273]

How are you guys getting sub 2% interest rates on car loans? I bought my car in November and the lowest rate I could find was 2.9% through RBFCU.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

Good credit rating.   

[Bernard 879]

On 2/20/2019 at 1:40 PM, Bat Guano said:

From what I've read, and in my limited experience, the dealership makes most of its new car profit from your trade-in

A quick look at Group 1 Automotive’s 2018 annual report says otherwise:

Gross Profit Margins:

new vehicles - 4.9%;

used vehicles (retail) 6.1%;

used vehicles (wholesale - this is where most trade-ins go) - 2.1%

G1A owns 187 new car dealerships selling 30 brands of vehicles  

Bernard

 

[Dbeasy 15092]

Use the VIP process outlined here.

https://www.carprousa.com

I don’t understand this service. What does getting a vip pass do?

[Updawg 2286]

 

I don’t understand this service. What does getting a vip pass do?

It sends you to a salesman that has paid the car pro guy for your contact. At least that's what it appears to me, I've never used it

 

[Fuck Tim Beck 3834]

1 hour ago, Dbeasy said:

 

I don’t understand this service. What does getting a vip pass do?

 

Gets you lapdances? 

[HRSchenker 2273]

15 hours ago, dingleberryswitzer said:

Good credit rating.   

I have excellent credit. The best rates I've seen usually come from credit unions with tight membership requirements so I guess that also plays a role?

[Lat22 4017]

1 hour ago, Dbeasy said:

 

I don’t understand this service. What does getting a vip pass do?

It gets you a face to face with the GM or somebody else in a high position.  You get to skip all of the buzzards in the parking lot.  Jerry Reynolds (aka the CarPro) has always said that the dealers don't pay him a thing.  Who really knows?  What I hear is that you get the best possible price without all of the hassle.  Also, who really knows?  If I were in the market, I'd at least start at one of his dealerships and see what number they throw at you so you can start comparing.

[Sandman 3412]

51 minutes ago, HRSchenker said:

I have excellent credit. The best rates I've seen usually come from credit unions with tight membership requirements so I guess that also plays a role?

Rates are just high. I bought a used truck over the weekend, best I could get was 3.97. Wife has 899 credit score, mine was 857.

[hornian 5223]

16 hours ago, HRSchenker said:

How are you guys getting sub 2% interest rates on car loans? I bought my car in November and the lowest rate I could find was 2.9% through RBFCU.

They are probably talking about older loans. Have a loan from Dec 2016 for 1.5% from UFCU. Right now their best advertised rate is 2.8% (https://www.ufcu.org/personal/loans/auto)

To be fair though, when I got the 1.5% rate, their best advertised rate was about 1.75%, so they may have some rates lower than that. But I doubt it's under 2%.

[Chewbacca 7785]

34 minutes ago, Sandman said:

Rates are just high. I bought a used truck over the weekend, best I could get was 3.97. Wife has 899 credit score, mine was 857.

Yep.  Short term rates are up from a couple years ago.  That won't affect 30 year mortgages, but it will affect shorter term loans like car loans.

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

4 hours ago, HRSchenker said:

I have excellent credit. The best rates I've seen usually come from credit unions with tight membership requirements so I guess that also plays a role?

Sometimes you get lower rates if you move your payheck direct deposit to  the bank, and set up auto pay.  

[Quagmire 2147]

Last time we just researched prices , looked on forums for what people paid.

Made a fair offer at the dealership , they tried to offer me a higher price but free crap like oil changes , gas, car washes . Said no thanks I gotta go, then manager finally tries with more stuff, say no, then they agree tommy offer .

It’s stupid , would think a dealership that cut out all that bs would do well

[Dbeasy 15092]

Well, finalizing the purchase strategy finally. I wanted to use Costco to get a baseline price then negotiate off of that but they will tell the dealer who you are and there are only two Lexus dealers in Austin both owned by the same company. That will send me to Houston or Dallas for a purchase.

[Smax 3800]

On 2/20/2019 at 10:40 AM, Bat Guano said:

From what I've read, and in my limited experience, the dealership makes most of its new car profit from your trade-in; they always low-ball the trade in offer by a few thousand. 

Nope, parts and service and its not even close

[Beau Vine 54429]

Alright, remember: no rust-proofing. Commit to nothing. If you have to speak - mumble.