Skilling is out

[jimmyjazz 46000]

6 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

If someone had their retirement wiped out by Enron that means they were stupid and greedy.

So they were dressed like they wanted it?  That's about what I'd expect from you.

[JimmyJames 12271]

5 hours ago, YChang said:

I kinda grudgingly respect how locked in Johnny Sack's views are. There really are no shades of gray in his world apparently. 

Yeah you are either a total shiftless moron who got what he deserved or the sack decides he should forgive you because you got screwed.

Most people fall into the former sack viewpoint but a few actually deserve his, ahem, sympathy and condolences. He’ll let you know where you personally fall when the time comes. 

 

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2738]

I've heard he's going on the speech circuit.
Curious how remorseful he truly is.

Probably about as remorseful as Jordan Belfort.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

10 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

Yeah you are either a total shiftless moron who got what he deserved or the sack decides he should forgive you because you got screwed.

Most people fall into the former sack viewpoint but a few actually deserve his, ahem, sympathy and condolences. He’ll let you know where you personally fall when the time comes. 

 

Doesn’t really matter, but I felt  sorry for them. But anyone who was anywhere near retirement age and lost all their money in Enron made some very dumb decisions.  Decisions that were caused by their financial ignorance or greed.   

You apparently feel differently and think it was a good decision to have all of their retirement invested in one stock that was exceptionally volatile.

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Johnny Sack

[Okie State 3821]

Some of you are confused about the way this went down or just fucking stupid.
its not like they tried to convince their employees to buy more of their own company Enron stock....oh wait, THATS EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID.
http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jan/19/news/mn-23640

Damn, hindsight is always 20/20, but so many red flags. Also I can't even comprehend a retirement match locked into company stock for that long. Mind boggling.

[HouTex 1887]

Andy Fastow is around town as well. Always funny to see how little punishment was dealt out for someone who ruined lives, hurt families and destroyed things based on greed.

Fastow was the real bad guy. That fucker should have done 40 years. He let his wife go to jail when he could have cut a deal to spare her. And many of the prosecutions of Enron employees were way over the top.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21912]

Enron blew up because it’s stock price was fraudulently inflated. Anyone who had all of their retirement invested in Enron also had their retirement account artificially inflated.

[ztejas 43524]

1 hour ago, HouTex said:

He let his wife go to jail when he could have cut a deal to spare her.

This isn't true at all. In fact, one of his main reasons for pleading guilty was the fact that they started bringing more charges against his wife. 

She was charged with much more than the tax fraud she served prison time for.

Still married, btw.

Edited February 23, 2019 by ztejas

[futureman 22510]

1 hour ago, HouTex said:

Fastow was the real bad guy. That fucker should have done 40 years. He let his wife go to jail when he could have cut a deal to spare her. And many of the prosecutions of Enron employees were way over the top.

[52-80 19205]

5 hours ago, futureman said:

a man’s gotta eat.  he’s too smart to flip burgers and nobody is hiring him to run their company.  if he can earn some honest money telling cautionary tales I applaud him.  would love to hear what he has to say. 

Don't put all your basket in one egg

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2738]

Lou Pai was the one that skated with zero consequences. Smart guy that Lou Pai.

[3adays 454]

Isn’t Pai still with that stripper he ran off with? 

[MAROON 445]

24 minutes ago, T’Boo Ted Marshall said:

Lou Pai was the one that skated with zero consequences. Smart guy that Lou Pai.

The one-time when it was actually a good choice to marry a stripper 

[T’Boo Ted Marshall 2738]

Still married to the stripper

[Hefeweizen 5328]

Doesn’t really matter, but I felt  sorry for them. But anyone who was anywhere near retirement age and lost all their money in Enron made some very dumb decisions.  Decisions that were caused by their financial ignorance or greed.   
You apparently feel differently and think it was a good decision to have all of their retirement invested in one stock that was exceptionally volatile.
 

What a joke. My sister was a low level executive at Enron and they were misleading everyone. Skilling, Fastow, and Lay all deserved prison time.

Hope they got to be girlfriends too.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

4 minutes ago, Hefeweizen said:

What a joke. My sister was a low level executive at Enron and they were misleading everyone. Skilling, Fastow, and Lay all deserved prison time.

Hope they got to be girlfriends too.

Who said they weren’t?  I wasn’t defending any of those top Enron guys.  What does your post have to do with my post that you responded to?

enron guys at top were crooks. 

Anyone who lost all their retirement savings because it was all invested in Enron was dumb and/or greedy.   

Both true statements.  

[closetojumping 62765]

One thing that is comical to me is that I’ve never met a person that worked at Enron who claimed to know a fucking thing about what was going on. Not a one of them, and I’ve come to know a few that were referenced in the books. 

Then, I watch them behave and magically, they’re usually the guys/girls who will push limits, reference people as sheep or cattle, and generally take the approach that most everyone else was a chump. Weird how that happens. 

I had a recruiter get me an opportunity to go work at Enron in 2000. I ultimately went to work at the early days of a start-up instead. That recruiter yelled at me and told me I was making a terrible mistake. I worked alongside folks in that start-up who were from Andersen. One of the women sat next to me and as all that shit was going down a year later and news was breaking every day in a negative way, she just sat there one afternoon and started crying to herself quietly. Those people saw their friends shamed and their careers ruined or tainted. At least the AA people seemed to own some shame about what went down at Enron and the 3-4 other firms that went under that they were doing audits  for during that period. 

[ztejas 43524]

1 hour ago, closetojumping said:

One thing that is comical to me is that I’ve never met a person that worked at Enron who claimed to know a fucking thing about what was going on. Not a one of them, and I’ve come to know a few that were referenced in the books. 

Then, I watch them behave and magically, they’re usually the guys/girls who will push limits, reference people as sheep or cattle, and generally take the approach that most everyone else was a chump. Weird how that happens. 

I had a recruiter get me an opportunity to go work at Enron in 2000. I ultimately went to work at the early days of a start-up instead. That recruiter yelled at me and told me I was making a terrible mistake. I worked alongside folks in that start-up who were from Andersen. One of the women sat next to me and as all that shit was going down a year later and news was breaking every day in a negative way, she just sat there one afternoon and started crying to herself quietly. Those people saw their friends shamed and their careers ruined or tainted. At least the AA people seemed to own some shame about what went down at Enron and the 3-4 other firms that went under that they were doing audits  for during that period. 

Was there supposed to be a point to this story? Or did you just want us to know you had an Enron job offer back in the day. 

[ztejas 43524]

2 hours ago, Dr. Beeper said:

Fastow has a career speaking to corporate groups about fraud. He is friends with a friend of a friend, and that particular friend went on a fishing trip without Fastow with 8-9 other guys. The trip was dominated by them pinging him about Enron shit. He said he was impressed how calmly and methodically he explained his version of what occurred, like he’d been in the daily practice of that. He claimed he didn’t commit a crime but openly acknowledged he operated in a gray area and exploited the fuck out of it. 

I’m far removed from the documentaries and the books, but I recall Fastow being the architect of all those SPVs, Skilling being aware of them and encouraging such behavior, and Lay being asleep (but as CEO that’s complicity). I always thought Skilling was the most guilty, followed closely by Fastow, and Lay was generally a good guy that is Exhibit A of why you should generally never be CEO of a public company. 

He's a very nice guy that is really doing a lot of good nowadays. 

The shit he pulled with their books was horrendous, but at the same time encouraged by the BoD and every other executive with a horse in that race. 

Trying to remember the title, but he had a spreadsheet called "facts" or some such where he ran Enron's credit and deals and evaluated them at a BB-, even though publicly they were a BBB+.

One day he runs this sheet by the board of directors, there's a long pause as they all look over the stark reality of what's been going on.

Fastow is sitting there worried that the jig is up, and someone in the room looks up at him and goes "You're a fucking genius".

It was an awful culture with zero accountability as far as the tone at the top went. And yet apparently the example wasn't clear enough for the shit that happened in the lead up to 2008.

[TwiceHorn 31512]

9 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Was there supposed to be a point to this story? Or did you just want us to know you had an Enron job offer back in the day. 

 

2 minutes ago, ztejas said:

It was an awful culture with zero accountability as far as the tone at the top went. And yet apparently the example wasn't clear enough for the shit that happened in the lead up to 2008.

I think you kind of answered your own question here.  And it wasn't just at the top, arrogant and amoral if not immoral.

[ztejas 43524]

6 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

 

I think you kind of answered your own question here.  And it wasn't just at the top, arrogant and amoral if not immoral.

I just like giving ctj shit. 

But yeah, tone at the top has a way of trickling down. That's why it's so important. I agree with @Dr. Beeper that Skilling was probably the biggest pos, although Pai was up there, I kind of think Lay was just a dumbass. Fastow enabled the whole thing by basically going scorched earth on GAAP at the time. AA and all of the lawyers involved were just as guilty, too. Although AA certainly got its due. 

 

[ChiTownDoc 21154]

18 hours ago, closetojumping said:

...a person that worked at Enron...

Then, I watch them behave and magically, they’re usually the guys/girls who will push limits, reference people as sheep or cattle, and generally take the approach that most everyone else was a chump. Weird how that happens. 

I had a recruiter get me an opportunity to go work at Enron in 2000. I ultimately went to work at the early days of a start-up instead. That recruiter yelled at me and told me I was making a terrible mistake. I worked alongside folks in that start-up who were from Andersen. One of the women sat next to me and as all that shit was going down a year later and news was breaking every day in a negative way, she just sat there one afternoon and started crying to herself quietly. Those people saw their friends shamed and their careers ruined or tainted. At least the AA people seemed to own some shame about what went down at Enron and the 3-4 other firms that went under that they were doing audits  for during that period. 

JohnnySack worked for Enron?

Edited February 24, 2019 by ChiTownDoc

[Johnny Sack 8397]

On ‎2‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 6:58 AM, ChiTownDoc said:

JohnnySack worked for Enron?

Don't you have some insurance companies and medicare to bilk today and cause our healthcare costs to explode even more?

[YChang 3455]

16 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Don't you have some insurance companies and medicare to bilk today and cause our healthcare costs to explode even more?

But he's also a job creator so it's ok. 

[Texas_Rocks 346]

Seems fair.

“In 2012, a Katy man was sentenced to 35 years in prison for stealing $1 million from a homeowners association. That same year, a Montgomery County jury sentenced a woman who stole more than $1 million to 65 years in prison.

On Friday in Brownsville, county worker Gilberto Escamilla was sentenced to 50 years in prison for stealing $1.2 million in fajita meat over nine years from the Cameron County juvenile center where he worked. He pleaded guilty to theft by a public servant”

[F250 28802]

1 hour ago, Texas_Rocks said:

Seems fair.
 

 

 

 

[HouTex 1887]

As analysts at the major investment firms were slowly beginning to figure out Enron's issues and began asking tougher questions on the calls, and after calling them idiots (they weren't) publicly, Fastow would call their bosses and threaten to cut the firm out of future deals unless they fired the offending analyst.  Same sort of thing Lance Armstrong would do to the folks who questioned his PED use.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

I wonder what would have happened had Lay had not returned as CEO?   Would he have been able to just blame it all on Skilling and Fastow?   Or was he getting indicted regardless?

[HouTex 1887]

Many people in Houston think Lay is still alive.

[tbone_ 14134]

Along with Elvis.

[HouTex 1887]

The story is told by some doctors that the way his body allegedly was handled is very suspicious, and, the legend goes, that for many years after his alleged death the entire family would go to some obscure Central/South American country (forget which) to visit him.  I don't buy it.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

12 minutes ago, HouTex said:

Many people in Houston think Lay is still alive.

US Marshalls checked his dead body.  

Edited February 25, 2019 by Johnny Sack

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

5 minutes ago, HouTex said:

 I don't buy it.

now who's naive

[SwanderedTalent 5761]

I mean fuck, do you people really think Venezuela is collapsing on its own?

[El Diablo 4232]

17 minutes ago, SwanderedTalent said:

I mean fuck, do you people really think Venezuela is collapsing on its own?

Maybe we should ask William Colby.

[Nolacycling 893]

On 2/21/2019 at 11:13 PM, futureman said:

he paid his debt.  served his time.  I’m glad he gets a chance to restart his life.  I’ll buy him a beer if I run into him.  

I'll buy you a beer if you run into him. 

These lying, cheating hustlers have been in prison probably working as consultants and confidants and are already millionaires again. They won't be out of a job long, because when it comes to making $, anything goes. 

Edited February 25, 2019 by Nolacycling

[TwiceHorn 31512]

14 minutes ago, Nolacycling said:

I'll buy you a beer if you run into him. 

These lying, cheating hustlers have been in prison probably working as consultants and confidants and are already millionaires again. They won't be out of a job long, because when it comes to making $, anything goes. 

They may find a lucrative career post-prison, but they pretty assuredly did not operate businesses from inside.  Only mobsters get away with that (requires buying off guards and wardens) and it's overstated.

I'm going to wish anyone released from prison congratulations and well-wishes.  In most cases, the odds are stacked against them, and in any event they survived a pretty fucked up system, for better or worse.

Edited February 25, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[tx 3 putt 77237]

On 2/22/2019 at 3:47 PM, futureman said:

a man’s gotta eat.  he’s too smart to flip burgers and nobody is hiring him to run their company.  if he can earn some honest money telling cautionary tales I applaud him.  would love to hear what he has to say. 

He spoke at a U of H breakfast couple years back and it was an amazing 3 hours. They literally had to run everyone out o the place could start setting up for lunch. He did ask that anyone that felt the need to tell him to go fuck himself wait until end. 

per Fastow, he had a deal in place with 'the banks' to save the company. Enron board voted no and the banks shut down their credit, company collapsed the same day.

his remorse - the toll it took on his family and the embarrassment for the City of Houston. per Fastow - he had beaten almost all the charges and there were two remaining charges that he was going to beat. Bush DoJ came down hard on him by using his wife. He plead on the last two charges. 

 

if you have a chance to go hear him speak, do it 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

If someone's retirement fund grew to a large amount because it was invested in Enron, and then it all crumbled, they didn't lose the large amount because it never really existed. Yes, if they had been smart/lucky, they could have sold some or all of it at the top, but why would they?  Now they may have lose their contributions but that's not the same as the overall balances.

I don't think the average Enron employee deserved what happened to them even if they made poor investment choices. They were lied to just as much as everyone else.

 

[HouTex 1887]

Enron returned around 45 cents on the dollar to creditors. Some of that was from settlements with the big banks, but Enron had real businesses and assets. You can't immediately shut down many businesses and pay creditors in full. Sure, the stock price was inflated but the sudden disclosure of the off balance deals basically caused a run on the bank and when Enron could no longer borrow it had to file chapter 11. It was pretty much a liquidation from the start.

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

On 2/22/2019 at 10:46 AM, YChang said:

I kinda grudgingly respect how locked in Johnny Sack's views are. There really are no shades of gray in his world apparently. 

He would probably prefer there be no brown or black in his world either.

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

On 2/22/2019 at 3:16 PM, DaggerHorns said:

Some of you are confused about the way this went down or just fucking stupid.

its not like they tried to convince their employees to buy more of their own company Enron stock....oh wait, THATS EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID.

http://articles.latimes.com/2002/jan/19/news/mn-23640

I remember when that happened. I had a buddy who was working at Enron, first job, had just graduated. We were drinking at the Volcano and he told me about the email and asked what I thought about it. My response was to get everything out of Enron stock as fast as he could.

 

I regret not trying to short it then.

[ztejas 43524]

8 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

Don't you have some insurance companies and medicare to bilk today and cause our healthcare costs to explode even more?

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

[Huckleberry 33045]

Two of the most repped posts here totally twist Johnny Sack’s words around. Sack is totally correct. 

I guess that depends on which contradictory post you're talking about.

If someone had their retirement wiped out by Enron that means they were stupid and greedy.

That sucks and was not his fault.
All those Arthur Anderson partners near retirement took a nice butt fucking too.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

1 hour ago, Huckleberry said:

I guess that depends on which contradictory post you're talking about.

You are twisting my posts too.  I was referencing 401k accounts.  I’ve said repeatedly it was dumb and greedy to have all your retirement 401k invested in one stock.  

You disagree?

and you think the defined benefit utility workers who lost their pensionand the AA partners who were wiped out were similarly unwise?

[David Dennison 18940]

On 2/22/2019 at 10:46 AM, YChang said:

I kinda grudgingly respect how locked in Johnny Sack's views are. There really are no shades of gray in his world apparently. 

Well, there's a really good reason for that.

[Fudge Nuggets 19209]

8 hours ago, Grade of D as in David said:

I regret not trying to short it then.

People get all starry-eyed over Warren Buffet, Peter Lynch, etc as great investors and that's fair.  But shorting Enron to the fucking ground is why Jim Chanos is my hero in the investing world.

Edited February 26, 2019 by Fudge Nuggets

[El Diablo 4232]

8 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

You are twisting my posts too.  I was referencing 401k accounts.  I’ve said repeatedly it was dumb and greedy to have all your retirement 401k invested in one stock.  

You disagree?

and you think the defined benefit utility workers who lost their pensionand the AA partners who were wiped out were similarly unwise?

People who put all of their life planning into one career choice are greedy and stupid. Those partners should have known.

[South Austin 52523]

I thought Skilling got the death penalty.

[Wally Fairway 5571]

2 hours ago, El Diablo said:

People who put all of their life planning into one career choice are greedy and stupid. Those partners should have known.

They should have shorted AA (and Enron) as a hedge to having all their eggs in one basket.

 

{kidding........not kidding}
I have a friend who left a small regional firm, when he was offered a partnership and saw that he'd be working another 20+ years only to payoff the retired/retiring partners.