To MBA, or Not to MBA?

[SuperSport 1333]

I've seriously considered taking the plunge in recent months, but it's obviously a major investment/commitment and I don't have (m)any firsthand resources.  My current employer only offers relationships with for-profit institutions, so part-time and 100% out-of-pocket is my likely path forward.  But how beneficial is the curriculum, and is it more than a checkbox for advancement?  Does it truly open doors, or is my resume just a bit shinier when I'm self-marketing?  The McCombs-in-Dallas program seems like a perfect fit, considering schedule, location, prestige, etc...anyone here have experience?

I have an Aerospace Engineering degree from UT.  I spent eight years doing concept product development and generalist project management with a major OEM, then took a project engineering job with an equally major airline operator when I decided it was time to move home; in hindsight, I should've stayed with the former.  Five years and multiple pointless re-orgs later, I'm as senior as I'm going to get without moving into the management ranks...peaking at 34 is depressing as fuck.  I'm also not sure I love engineering anymore, so a non-technical degree would theoretically expand my career options.

I'm sure there was a thread or two on the scat site, but I figured I might as well restart the discussion here...thanks in advance.

[Hank Scorpio 17729]

Are you the guy who puts the chemtrail chemicals in the planes? 

[SuperSport 1333]

Yep, but don't tell anyone.

[tucker 238]

Only worth it if you can go to a top 10 school imo even then it is debatable depending on current pay/ career expectations.

[52-80 19163]

You don't need an MBA to learn how to organize all your PowerPoint slides into 4 quadrants. 

[F250 28781]

I have one and it's usefulness has been pretty limited. A few jobs have required it but most have not.

The benefit is not that great for those of us in STEM fields.

[YChang 3453]

I’ve asked myself that. But at least in my greater org, you don’t need one to get into senior leadership.

Have you thought about looking for someone to help mentor you to navigate the org and help you on that path to mgmt?

[fattyflattie 4639]

Most everyone I know who’s done it made it clear their employer they had 2 years to find them a substantial path forward or they would be free agent the day they got out.  Has worked for almost all of them.  Ymmv.  This has been in O&G construction and petrochemical construction. 

[luke duke 6413]

You will probably be a manager faster if you get your PE.

[tx 3 putt 77061]

it sounds like you're ready to leave and leaving with a new mba (imo) is the best way to cash in

 

shot you a pm 

[Mach 1 1677]

5 hours ago, SuperSport said:

I've seriously considered taking the plunge in recent months, but it's obviously a major investment/commitment and I don't have (m)any firsthand resources.  My current employer only offers relationships with for-profit institutions, so part-time and 100% out-of-pocket is my likely path forward.  But how beneficial is the curriculum, and is it more than a checkbox for advancement?  Does it truly open doors, or is my resume just a bit shinier when I'm self-marketing? 

I have an engineer inlaw at Boeing that is doing the part time MBA right now.  He said it was necessary to give him the opportunity to move up, or move around, the company.   He said they were assisting financially, but can't recall the percentage.

I bolded the part that seems very odd.  Why is that?  Seems as if your current employer actually cared about your education, and the benefit you might bring to the company in the future, they wouldn't care.  Hell, they'd probably even give preferential treatment to non-profit.

I would get it.  It's not the curriculum that will necessarily help - though depending on your profs, could - but more for HR departments.  Many jobs have a check box for post grad studies, and doing it part time, while working, shows you're serious about your career.  You obviously don't want to get ceilinged at a relatively young age, so get it and open up whatever possibilities that might exist.

[fattyflattie 4639]

54 minutes ago, luke duke said:

You will probably be a manager faster if you get your PE.

I would agree with this too. Especially if you are considering the professional and not executive course. 

A co-worker is going through the executive MBA at Mays right now. When he was interviewing at McCombs, they asked “with your current work load, where are you going to find the ~3 hours a day to study?”    That pretty much killed my want to on it. No way I can make that with work and the little ones.  So, I’ve been thinking where can I get a similar return on 125k. Haven’t figured it out yet. 

I don’t have the option (or ability) for a PE, so it’s a PMP and hope I can fall upwards a few more times before I top out. 

 

[Jeffrey 90]

I'd do it but I wouldn't commit to staying with your company unless they pay for a majority of it at a top school. You'll have lots of opportunities to network and recruit in school to find the right fit for you if looking to get out of the engineering space.

My background is MechE with manufacturing. Quit to do MBA full time and now in energy. Hard with a family but 100% worth it for us.

Good luck in whatever path you choose.

[Johnny Chimpo 478]

I’ve got a UT Mech E BS (2010 grad) and a USC Petroleum E MS. I work for a well known integrated oil and gas company, and have since 2012. They also paid for my MS (75% reimbursed). In 2016 I got pretty sick of the layoffs and applied for five full time MBA programs (top 10 schools only). I didn’t get in to a single one of them, man what a slap in the face that was. It’s been a blessing though, honestly. I’ve been able to go expat and doubled my salary while working half the year. I currently make significantly more than the average starting pay for MBA grads. 

I have several friends who quit the oil and gas business and both ended up getting their MBAs. One from USC and the other from Rice. They were both engineers and they have both said the schoolwork is not exactly hard but it is a very heavy load, enough to keep you very busy. Then you add in the social commitments, recruiting dinners, etc. It’s pretty full on. 

One of these guys ended up working VC in biotech / medical devices. The other one is in consulting in the O&G space. 

If you’re looking to make a career change don’t underestimate how tough it is to escape your past industry. Both of them had to work very hard to change career paths. It’s very competitive right now in the MBA space. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

Whether it’s a checkbox for future employment or a springboard into a new career is how to do it and your expectations.

If you go the route of online, part time  and/or night school, then it’s more of check the box. I wouldn’t worry so much about where and how you get the degree, just get it.  And don’t overspend. And there’s nothing wrong with this path. I see many people in healthcare getting the online mba because they need it to get promoted. But don’t expect a new (or current) employer to automatically place your on the fast track.

If you want the route to change your career trajectory, you may need to drop out of work for two years and commit to an intensive program full of future stars. It will be a lot of work and you will be poor again even with a working spouse.   Make sure you want this life, short and long term. 

On the note about your employer only having a relationship with a for-profit school, I assume that’s because it’s most likely a free benefit for your employer:

For profit school:  “ hey employer. We will give your employees 10% off in exchange for exclusive education benefits”

Employer: “cool.  Check the box we offer education benefits and we pay 0. Let’s call it a day”

 

[Sbbruin 21861]

I got my MBA in the early 90's when the economy went to shit. It probably opened a few doors early on in my career (commercial real estate) but I wouldn't say it makes much of a difference now. I was able to get my entire degree paid for at Loyola Marymount working as a graduate research assistant doing research for professors. So I didn't graduate with any debt, which made a huge difference as I was able to take a relatively low paying gig but one that had tons of opportunity for advancement and that has paid off.

[TwiceHorn 31496]

8 hours ago, Johnny Chimpo said:

I’ve got a UT Mech E BS (2010 grad) and a USC Petroleum E MS. I work for a well known integrated oil and gas company, and have since 2012. They also paid for my MS (75% reimbursed). In 2016 I got pretty sick of the layoffs and applied for five full time MBA programs (top 10 schools only). I didn’t get in to a single one of them, man what a slap in the face that was. It’s been a blessing though, honestly. I’ve been able to go expat and doubled my salary while working half the year. I currently make significantly more than the average starting pay for MBA grads. 

I have several friends who quit the oil and gas business and both ended up getting their MBAs. One from USC and the other from Rice. They were both engineers and they have both said the schoolwork is not exactly hard but it is a very heavy load, enough to keep you very busy. Then you add in the social commitments, recruiting dinners, etc. It’s pretty full on. 

One of these guys ended up working VC in biotech / medical devices. The other one is in consulting in the O&G space. 

If you’re looking to make a career change don’t underestimate how tough it is to escape your past industry. Both of them had to work very hard to change career paths. It’s very competitive right now in the MBA space. 

That seems flabbergasting.  All my engineer buddies that went MBA had little problem securing spots at Kellogg, Wharton, etc.  You'd think now that the shine has fallen off of MBAs, it would be easier.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

That seems flabbergasting.  All my engineer buddies that went MBA had little problem securing spots at Kellogg, Wharton, etc.  You'd think now that the shine has fallen off of MBAs, it would be easier.

I thought acceptance rates at top schools was 20% or less so I don't see how it's considered easy to get into them.  You obviously have some percentage that have no business applying but there are still many highly qualified applicants that don't get in.

[Angry Gorilla 1768]

23 hours ago, SuperSport said:

The McCombs-in-Dallas program seems like a perfect fit, considering schedule, location, prestige, etc...anyone here have experience?

I went through that program, feel free to PM me with any questions.

[tucker 238]

3 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I thought acceptance rates at top schools was 20% or less so I don't see how it's considered easy to get into them.  You obviously have some percentage that have no business applying but there are still many highly qualified applicants that don't get in.

It is a lot less competitive to get into top tier MBAs per my friends 2-4 years ago. The problem was graduating almost all were pushed to go back into the same industry that they left. Employers no longer see MBAs as a clean slate and want prior industry experience imo. As a result, majority of my friends who were in banking and consulting went right back into banking and consulting. Thankfully, almost all had their MBAs paid for by their employer but many were not happy as they were expecting a career change.

[SuperSport 1333]

On 2/27/2019 at 3:37 PM, 52-80 said:

You don't need an MBA to learn how to organize all your PowerPoint slides into 4 quadrants. 

On 2/27/2019 at 6:40 PM, YChang said:

Have you thought about looking for someone to help mentor you to navigate the org and help you on that path to mgmt?

Already identified someone, and fortunately for me they're also UT undergrad.  We'll see what happens.

On 2/27/2019 at 7:16 PM, luke duke said:

You will probably be a manager faster if you get your PE.

PE isn't worth much in aerospace, but point taken.

On 2/27/2019 at 7:50 PM, Mach 1 said:

I have an engineer inlaw at Boeing that is doing the part time MBA right now.  He said it was necessary to give him the opportunity to move up, or move around, the company.   He said they were assisting financially, but can't recall the percentage.

I bolded the part that seems very odd.  Why is that?  Seems as if your current employer actually cared about your education, and the benefit you might bring to the company in the future, they wouldn't care.  Hell, they'd probably even give preferential treatment to non-profit.

Boeing's education program was gold-plated, and I'm still kicking myself for not pursuing an advanced degree while they were paying (wanted a MS-ASE but never pulled the trigger).  Airlines operate on the slimmest of financial margins, and as a result do everything as cheaply as possible...that starts with employee French benefits.  Also, basically what Eddie said.

[SuperSport 1333]

Thanks for all the replies, definitely a lot to consider.

[DaysOff 7951]

The hell you say.

[shnsajax 3591]

On 2/27/2019 at 2:37 PM, 52-80 said:

You don't need an MBA to learn how to organize all your PowerPoint slides into 4 quadrants. 

Do you even Adobe Captivate bro?

[Jeffrey 90]

It is a lot less competitive to get into top tier MBAs per my friends 2-4 years ago. The problem was graduating almost all were pushed to go back into the same industry that they left. Employers no longer see MBAs as a clean slate and want prior industry experience imo. As a result, majority of my friends who were in banking and consulting went right back into banking and consulting. Thankfully, almost all had their MBAs paid for by their employer but many were not happy as they were expecting a career change.

Their employers paid for their MBAs but didnt have a lock-in agreement in place? Doesnt sound right. Or you mean they went right back to their current employer? Either way when you're still tied to an employer while in school you'll most likely go back because it's the familiar route. And if your chasing immediate money post MBA other industries wont compete with consulting and i-banking.

My application year MIT Sloan only gave 2nd rd interviews to 8% of applicants. Every year is different based on deferred admissions etc but top tier is still damn tough.

Go to a top 20 school and you'll have no problem moving industries if you commit to the recruiting and networking sides of things. Now if your expectation is a consulting gig at McKinsey or BCG, yeah that's elite level competitive and you'll probably be disappointed.


Nothing is a free ticket to a better or different career path. You have to hustle even at a good school. Going to a sub top 20 school puts the risk even higher.

I did Mccombs full time and worked my ass off academically and recruiting bc I quit a good job and went all in. My prior work experience was not flashy at all and I had opportunities in many industries with zero experience. All about your mindset.

[Dbeasy 15068]

I guess I’ll weigh in here. I have a degree in Aerospace Engineering but realized I didn’t want to be an engineer for the long-term. I was way more interested in the business side.

I got an MBA from a top 10 program and it opened new opportunities that never would have been possible otherwise. If you go to a top program, even today it would still open key doors, especially with an engineering background.

[horn4life 3762]

I guess I might reverse engineer, and ask what do you want?  Are there jobs in the salary range you want, with further advancement in your area in fields where you would LIKE to work?  You made this last employment move based on the geography of home, so I assume that is a restriction as well regarding any future job.  

Do you really WANT an MBA?  Or you think/hope that it will give you a lot more options?  You have a job you seem to at least like to some degree, but it's th "peak out" part that is freaking you out?  Most folks I know who went back and got MBA's had considerable help from their employers in one way or another. 

The approach I would take is to be honest with your employer, and try to get into management.  Tell them that you want to move into management, as that is the only way you see advancement at this point in your career with a company you WANT to stay with!  SELL!!!! You want to get into management, as a challenge to yourself.  You would even be willing to make the sacrifice of time and money to get an MBA if it would further you way up the management food chain.  Now this is not to say you do not pursure other employment opportunities if you go the MBA route.  Just that you sell the company that you want to be where you are at and willing to work to advance.  What is the criteria to get into management?  Push where you work first!  IF, you can get into management then perhaps the MBA is seen by your current employer as a potential benefit to them. IF you can get into management where you currently are employed it will make your MBA more valuable. 

Good luck!

 

[tucker 238]

19 hours ago, Jeffrey said:

Their employers paid for their MBAs but didnt have a lock-in agreement in place? Doesnt sound right. Or you mean they went right back to their current employer? Either way when you're still tied to an employer while in school you'll most likely go back because it's the familiar route. And if your chasing immediate money post MBA other industries wont compete with consulting and i-banking.

Go to a top 20 school and you'll have no problem moving industries if you commit to the recruiting and networking sides of things. Now if your expectation is a consulting gig at McKinsey or BCG, yeah that's elite level competitive and you'll probably be disappointed.
 

 

 

The top tier consulting firms and I-banking give free money during school. Those companies pay back loans when you go back to work for them immediately after MBA. You would be surprised number of people who had sponsorship that the last place they wanted to end back to their prior employer as many of their peers careers accelerated by staying instead of going to get an MBA. 

It wasn't just money but many industries don't want ex-consultants right after MBA.

[Reagan1k 3024]

Just memorize a bunch of cool MBA phrases - start throwing them around in the break-room and you'll be fine.

[tx 3 putt 77061]

1. It's a paradigm shift = I don't know what's going on in our business. But we're not making as much money as we used to.

2. We're data-driven = We try not to make decisions by the seat of our pants. When possible, we try to base them in facts.

3. We need to wrap our heads around this = Gosh, I never thought of that. We need to discuss that....

4. It's a win-win = Hey, we both get something out of this (even though I'm really trying to get the best from you)

5. ROI [used in any sentence] = Look at me, I'm very financially-minded, even if I never took any finance classes in school

6. Let's blue sky this/let's ballpark this = Let's shoot around a bunch of ideas since we have no clue what to do

7. I'm a bit of a visionary = I'm a bit of an egomaniac and narcissist

8. I'm a team player/we only hire team players = I hope everyone on the team thinks this is a meritocracy, even though I'm the dictator in charge

9. Let's circle back to that/Let's put that in the parking lot/let's touch base on that later/let's take this off-line = Shut up and let's go back to what I was talking about

10. We think outside the box here/color outside the lines = We wouldn't know about how to do something innovative if it came up to us and bit us in the behind

11. I/we/you don't have the bandwidth = Since we cut 60% of our headcount, we're all doing the job of 3 people, so we're all burned out

12. This is where the rubber meets the road = Don't screw up

13. Net net/the net of it is/when you net it out = I never studied finance or accounting but I sound like someone who can make money if I keep talking about another word for profit

14. We'll go back and sharpen our pencils = We'll go back and offer you the same for 20% less in hopes you'll buy it before the end of the quarter

15.  It's like the book "Crossing the Chasm"/"Blue Ocean"/"Good To Great" / "Tipping Point" / "Outliers" = I've never read any of these books but I sound literate if I quote from them. And, besides, you cretins probably never read them either to call me out on it

16. Let's right-size it = Let's whack/fire a bunch of people

17. It's next-gen/turn-key/plug-and-play = I want it to sound so technical that you'll just buy it without asking me any questions

18. We need to manage the optics of this = How can we lie about this in a way people will believe?

19. This is creative destruction = I've never read Joseph Schumpeter but our core business is getting killed so it's your responsibility to come up with a new product the market will buy

20. We don't have enough boots on the ground = I don't want to be fired for this disastrous product/country launch, so I'm going to sound tough referring to the military and say I don't have enough resources

21. Deal with it = Tough cookies

22. By way of housekeeping = This makes the boring stuff I'm about to say sound more official

23. That's the $64,000 question [sometimes, due to inflation, people will denominate this cliche in millions or billions of dollars] = I don't know either

24. Let's square the circle = I'm someone who can unify two team members' views and sound important

25. It's our cash cow/protect/milk the cash cow = If that business goes south, we're all out of a job

26. It's about synergies/1 + 1 = 3 = I don't get the math either, but it sounds like more and more is better, right?

27. Who's going to step up to the plate? = One of you is going to do this and it's not going to be me

28. We're eating our own dog food = It sounds gross but we seem like honest folks if we do this.

29. We need to monetize/strategize/analyze/incentivize = When in doubt, stick "-ize" on the end of a word and say we've got to do this and 9 out of 10 times, it will sound action-oriented.

30. We did a Five Forces/SWOT analysis/Value Chain analysis = We didn't really do any of that, but none of you probably even remember Michael Porter, so what the heck

31. It was a perfect storm = We really screwed up but we're going to blame a bunch of factors that are out of our hands (especially weather)

32. At the end of the day.... = OK, enough talking back and forth, we're going to do what I want to do

33. Who's got the 'R'? [i.e., responsibility to do what we just spent 20 minutes talking about aimlessly] = If I ask the question, it won't be assigned to me

34. Let's put lipstick on this pig = plug your nose

35. I'm putting a stake in the ground here... = I'm a leader, simply because I'm using this cliche

36. We're customer-focused/proactive/results-oriented = That can't be bad, right?  This is motherhood and apple pie stuff

37. Our visibility into the quarter is a little fuzzy = Sales just fell off a cliff

38. That's not our core competency/we're sticking to our knitting= We're just glad we're making money in one business, because we'd have no clue how to get into any other business

39. Well, we're facing some headwinds there = You put your finger on the area we're panicking over

40. It's a one-off = Do whatever they want to close the sale

41. Incent it = That's not a verb but I just made it into one because I'm a man/woman of action

42. I'm an agent of change = This makes it sound like I know how to handle the chaos that our business is constantly going through

43. We've got to do a little more due diligence there = Don't have a clue but does that legal term make me sound detail-oriented?

44. Don't leave money on the table = Be as greedy with them as possible

45. We take a "ready, fire, aim" approach here = We totally operate on a seat-of-the-pants basis

46. Hope is not a strategy = I don't have a strategy, but this makes it sound like I'm above people who also don't have a strategy

47. We have to tear down the silos internally = Our organizational structure is such a mess that I'm going to be under-mined by other departments at every turn

48. I don't think it will move the needle = This won't get my boss excited

49. Good to put a face to the name = I'd really rather talk to that person behind you

50. Let's take the 30,000 foot view... = I like to think I see the big picture

51. It's the old 80-20 rule = I really have no idea what the rule was, but I just want to focus on the things that will make us successful

52. We need to manage expectations = Get ready to start sucking up to people

53. It's not actionable enough/what's the deliverable? = You guys do the work on refining the idea. I'm too tired.

54. My 2 cents is... = This opinion is worth a heck of a lot more than 2 cents

55. I'm going to sound like a broken record here... = I want to clearly point out to you idiots that I've made this point several times before

56. We've got too many chiefs and not enough Indians = I want to be the Chief

57. Going forward = Don't screw up like this again

58. My people know I've got an open door policy = I've told my direct reports to come to me if they have a problem, so why should I feel bad if they complain I'm too busy to talk to them?

59. It's gone viral = Someone sent a tweet about this

60. I know you've been burning the candle on both ends = Get ready to do some more

61. It's scalable = We can sell a lot of it in theory

62. It's best-of-breed = We hired a market research firm to say that

63. We're all about value-add = Unlike our competitors who seek to add no value

64. What's our go-to-market? = Has anyone planned this out, because I've been too busy?

65. I'm drinking from a fire hose right now = I want a little sympathy over here, because I'm tired of carrying this company on my back

66. We're getting some push back = They're not buying it

67. We need to do a level-set = I've never been inside a Home Depot, but this phrase makes me sound handy

68. It's basic blocking and tackling = How could you screw this up? I also played high school football and those were the best days of my life.

69. Let's put our game faces on = Get serious, guys

70. We've got it covered from soup to nuts = I have no idea what that means, but don't you dare question my prep work on it

71. We don't want to get thrown under the bus = So let's throw someone else first

72. But to close the loop on this... = Always the more theoretical Business Development/Strategy guys who say this, so they can sound thorough

73.  What are "next steps"? = Did anyone take notes during the last 90 minutes of this meeting?

74. This is low-hanging fruit = Get this done quickly

75. We need a few quick wins = We've got to trick people into thinking we know what we're doing by some successes we can point to and claim as ours

76. It's a [Insert Company Name] killer = Did I get your attention yet with the Freddy Kreuger imagery associated with the company who's currently eating our lunch?

77. I want to address the elephant in the room = I know you think I'm trying to cover up/gloss over something, so I might as well talk about it

78. This is the next big thing/new thing = Some of our 20-somethings have told me this is really cool

79. This time it's different because... = Don't wait for the explanation... simply run for the hills.

80. What are the best practices on this? = How can I cover my behind that we're just doing stuff the way other good people have supposedly done this?

81. This is our deliverable = I know this sounds like something that comes in a body bag, but it makes our PowerPoint sound tougher than it actually is

82. We'll loop you in when we need to = You're not that important to know about all the details on this

83. We want this to move up and to the right = I failed high school algebra but someone said this means we'll be making a lot of money if this happens

84. We're going through a re-org = No one knows what the heck is going on at the moment

85. We've got to increase our mind-share with the customer = I think I would have been happier as a doctor doing lobotomies than in marketing as a career path

86. I don't think you're comparing apples to apples = Let me tell you how you should really think about this issue

87. Let's peel back the onion on this = I want to sound thorough so this is a better way of telling you that than simply clearing my throat

88. You phoned it in = I was too busy checking my email during your presentation that I didn't listen

89. I want you to run with this = I just threw you into the deep end of the pool and you're on your own to figure it out

[NBMisha 224]

In two words, fuck no.  Invest in building your strengths.  MBA won't make you a better leader, researcher, or engineer.  Hard work will.  Don't count on any education label to take the place of that.

[52-80 19163]

8 minutes ago, NBMisha said:

In two words, fuck no.  Invest in building your strengths.  MBA won't make you a better leader, researcher, or engineer.  Hard work will.  Don't count on any education label to take the place of that.

this advice is not accretive to his knowledge base.  hows my man going to improve his intellectual CAGR

[NBMisha 224]

Well put.  If slinging language like this around as a "management consultant" is one's life long desire, metier, etc, well, of course get that MBA.  But, simply to "get noticed"?  There are more reliable ways:  work harder than anyone, learn more than anyone, help your clients more than anyone, help your co-workers more than anyone.

[housious 468]

I'm pretty sure people only get MBA's so they can add it after their name on LinkedIn. 

[horn4life 3762]

45 minutes ago, NBMisha said:

Well put.  If slinging language like this around as a "management consultant" is one's life long desire, metier, etc, well, of course get that MBA.  But, simply to "get noticed"?  There are more reliable ways:  work harder than anyone, learn more than anyone, help your clients more than anyone, help your co-workers more than anyone.

One of the things I addressed and then deleted is something that I honestly think is more important than an MBA for Super Sport, but I wanted to stay more on point.  The question was "Are you personable?" I would ask this of anyone trying to make the shift into management, but for engineers I think it is perhaps even more important.  While there are all sorts of engineers, there are a lot of engineers that simply are not that personable.  Awesome as worker bees, but not the sort of person most folks would follow.  Would NON- engineers find you to be an engaging leader?  Nearly universally the engineers I know who know how to party,  know how to engage on many levels, and simply are more personable do much better financially than those that are not.  I attribute this to quite honestly the ability to engage more people higher up in the food chain of their organization.  In essence they can raise their internal company networking into a higher level than a less personable person.  Engineering as a profession has a high percentage of people that I would largely put into the non-personable category. Flame away if you think this observation is incorrect, I'll stand by it.

In my mind for a majority of Engineers, becoming more well rounded, putting yourself into uncomfortable social situations and learning to adapt more quickly, as well as learning to tell some good jokes in a highly animated way provide better opportunities for advancement than a newly minted MBA.  Again flame away, but I'll stand my my observations.

I'll use my Son-in-law as exhibit A.  He is not close to being as outgoing, or as personable as I am.   But based on the PE  Class of 2017 Colorado School of Mines he is a near all star.  I have met only one other engineer from his school that was more personable than my SIL and that guy is like a rock star to his ingineering peers from Mines.  They are both doing better than their peers only two years out, and both are on management tracks. 

I will also make one more derogatory observation regarding engineers.  It is important to be able to NOT overly rely on alcohol as a social lubricant. Go back up to my suggestion of more experience in "putting themselves into uncomfortable social situations." I've seen and heard stories of really good engineers and great people failing to take advantage of potential great opportunities do to their discomfort in social settings.  

Anyhow my two cents relating to NON-MBA issues I think are more prevalent in the Engineering environment than a lot of other careers, simply because of underlying personality traits. I think for a lot of engineers that fall into my  "non-personable" category," social situations might be a lot more valuable over time than an MBA.  Think of the Engineers that sell stuff.  Most of them cannot only do the calculations, explain the calculations, but they can make the sale.  The old adage of it's not what you know, but who you know that is of special importance in rising in any organization.  People promote who they like, social settings are one of the best opportunities to network past your boss, maybe even your bosses boss.  When it comes down to brass tacks, you likeablity is often as important as your knowledge base and work ethic.  Is it fair? Nope, but that's the way it is. 

PS my SIL is likely to go back at some point and get his MBA.  His company will pay for/ reimburse him for it, though and that is a HUGE difference than the scenario SS presented.  His main reason is that "the company will pay for it."  He views the degree more valuble if he later moves into a position higher up in management with a smaller company. bigger fish is smaller pond. Plus he thinks it might be interesting. Ultimately you have to sell yourself as your way into management, and oftentimes is personality, over resume.  So I think it's something to consider... Flame away.

Edited March 4, 2019 by horn4life

[52-80 19163]

7 minutes ago, horn4life said:

One of the things I addressed and then deleted is something that I honestly think is more important than an MBA for Super Sport, but I wanted to stay more on point.  The question was "Are you personable?" I would ask this of anyone trying to make the shift into management, but for engineers I think it is perhaps even more important.  While there are all sorts of engineers, there are a lot of engineers that simply are not that personable.  Awesome as worker bees, but not the sort of person most folks would follow.  Would NON- engineers find you to be an engaging leader?  Nearly universally the engineers I know who know how to party,  know how to engage on many levels, and simply are more personable do much better financially than those that are not.  I attribute this to quite honestly the ability to engage more people higher up in the food chain of their organization.  In essence they can raise their internal company networking into a higher level than a less personable person.  Engineering as a profession has a high percentage of people that I would largely put into the non-personable category. Flame away if you think this observation is incorrect, I'll stand by it.

In my mind for a majority of Engineers, becoming more well rounded, putting yourself into uncomfortable social situations and learning to adapt more quickly, as well as learning to tell some good jokes in a highly animated way provide better opportunities for advancement than a newly minted MBA.  Again flame away, but I'll stand my my observations.

I'll use my Son-in-law as exhibit A.  He is not close to being as outgoing, or as personable as I am.   But based on the PE  Class of 2017 Colorado School of Mines he is a near all star.  I have met only one other engineer from his school that was more personable than my SIL and that guy is like a rock star to his ingineering peers from Mines.  They are both doing better than their peers only two years out, and both are on management tracks. 

I will also make one more derogatory observation regarding engineers.  It is important to be able to NOT overly rely on alcohol as a social lubricant. Go back up to my suggestion of more experience in "putting themselves into uncomfortable social situations." I've seen and heard stories of really good engineers and great people failing to take advantage of potential great opportunities do to their discomfort in social settings.  

Anyhow my two cents relating to NON-MBA issues I think are more prevalent in the Engineering environment than a lot of other careers, simply because of underlying personality traits. I think for a lot of engineers that fall into my  "non-personable" category," social situations might be a lot more valuable over time than an MBA.  Think of the Engineers that sell stuff.  Most of them cannot only do the calculations, explain the calculations, but they can make the sale.  The old adage of it's not what you know, but who you know that is of special importance in rising in any organization.  People promote who they like, social settings are one of the best opportunities to network past your boss, maybe even your bosses boss.  When it comes down to brass tacks, you likeablity is often as important as your knowledge base and work ethic.  Is it fair? Nope, but that's the way it is. 

PS my SIL is likely to go back at some point and get his MBA.  His company will pay for/ reimburse him for it, though and that is a HUGE difference than the scenario SS presented.  His main reason is that "the company will pay for it."  He views the degree more valuble if he later moves into a position higher up in management with a smaller company. bigger fish is smaller pond. Plus he thinks it might be interesting. Ultimately you have to sell yourself as your way into management, and oftentimes is personality, over resume.  So I think it's something to consider... Flame away.

can you right-size this response a bit; we're not trying to boil the ocean here

[horn4life 3762]

1 minute ago, 52-80 said:

can you right-size this response a bit; we're not trying to boil the ocean here

The majority of Engineers are socially challenged.. it's worth thinking about. 😉 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

6 hours ago, NBMisha said:

In two words, fuck no.  Invest in building your strengths.  MBA won't make you a better leader, researcher, or engineer.  Hard work will.  Don't count on any education label to take the place of that.

I understand this opinion, but there are some industries (healthcare) and even companies that value having an MBA.  Meaning that you can't rise above a certain level without one.  For these, you may want to invest in a "check the box" MBA and not drop 100K on an eMBA.

[tx 3 putt 77061]

You’ll be able to get your point across in one paragraph or less, post Mba 

[tx 3 putt 77061]

IMO, an mba is still valued in energy - o/g, especially if you jump to another company 

[Sam Lin 3559]

On 3/4/2019 at 9:07 AM, horn4life said:

The majority of Engineers are socially challenged.. it's worth thinking about. 😉 

Solid advice.

[TwiceHorn 31496]

On 2/28/2019 at 12:37 PM, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I thought acceptance rates at top schools was 20% or less so I don't see how it's considered easy to get into them.  You obviously have some percentage that have no business applying but there are still many highly qualified applicants that don't get in.

MBA programs tend to like engineers quite a bit.

And the bit about engineers being socially challenged is horseshit.  The biggest collection of awkward, green-eyeshade power tools I have ever been around was found at 727 E. 26th, not at 26th and Speedway.

One thing that is rather conspicuous about engineers is poor communication skills, especially written.  That skill just atrophies in a lot of areas of the profession.

Edited March 7, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[TwiceHorn 31496]

Also, an engineer is less likely to be an insincere bullshit artist than most, so there is that.

[Mach 1 1677]

The MBA, like any other post grad degree, assists in your career path.  Of course an exceptional employee with exceptional work ethic can, and should, be elevated above someone that has a post grad degree.  However most of the corporate world is controlled by something called a Human Resources Department.  They like higher education.

[SHOOTER12 8810]

On 2/27/2019 at 2:10 PM, Hank Scorpio said:

Are you the guy who puts the chemtrail chemicals in the planes? 

 

On 2/27/2019 at 2:40 PM, SuperSport said:

Yep, but don't tell anyone.

It's piss... 

[52-80 19163]

4 hours ago, Mach 1 said:

The MBA, like any other post grad degree, assists in your career path.  Of course an exceptional employee with exceptional work ethic can, and should, be elevated above someone that has a post grad degree.  However most of the corporate world is controlled by something called a Human Resources Department.  They like higher education.

What this post says is that you should be getting a master's in human resources

[Dbeasy 15068]

In two words, fuck no.  Invest in building your strengths.  MBA won't make you a better leader, researcher, or engineer.  Hard work will.  Don't count on any education label to take the place of that.

This is a shallow view point that is simply flat wrong. I hope no one takes this terrible advice seriously.

For many people, an MBA changes their entire worldview, perspective, and motivation levels. It also provides them a whole new set of skills to complement the skills they’ve already obtained. The skills learned aren’t just business skills either.

Obviously hard work is also valuable and important, but one doesn’t to choose between an MBA and hard work. You can do both.

[horn4life 3762]

On 3/5/2019 at 1:13 AM, tx 3 putt said:

IMO, an mba is still valued in energy - o/g, especially if you jump to another company 

This is part of the reason why my SIL wants to get the MBA.  It company will help pay for it, and it will advance him at his "big oil" company.  If he stays there forever, it will likely help him move into the management side over time. As tx 3 putt said, to smaller oil and gas companies an MBA/PE management candidate with years of training by the big boys is a more likely hire. Or at least that's the opinion of myself, Tx 3 putt, and my SIL.  Both my BIL and Sistergot their MBA's at U of H, and both were paid for by their companies, Exxon and Wells Fargo (?) at the time. I am a firm believer in education, expecially if somebody else is willing to pay for it!

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

To add, company mgmt eats it up that you want to better yourself in the hopes of moving up in mgmt. I agree that hard work alone should be enough to further your career but why not do both.

Not to mention that you might actually learn something in your mba classes to apply at work. You never know where you might find some inspiration. 

At the end of the day, the best investment you can make in your life is something that MIGHT increase your income or career opportunities. There are never any guarantees though. 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13515]

8 hours ago, OatmealRaisinCookie said:

I can't speak for BCG, but I interface with McKinsey and will be at Bain doing some work up in Back Bay and to a man they have strong MBA's.

Jokes aside from using the word interface, I don't really know anyone who went to HBS or Stanford or anything crazy, but I assume you write your own ticket if you get in top 5 school?

Most of my friends have mid-tier MBA's from flagship state schools (Ross, Ourso, Haslam, etc.) and private schools with strong regional weight (Hankamer, Cox, Wake Forest) but the most interesting/value I've seen has actually been Notre Dame MBA'ers. It's more accessible than Booth or Kellogg, maybe seen as stronger than Ross, and you have a ton of opportunity in Chicago and the central region in general. I've had two CEO's who were ND MBA's and worked with a lot of strong ones.

Is it a thing now to refer to large school’s MBA program by the school’s (donor’s) name?   I understand the reasoning why the school’s want it, but I guess if they brand themselves with enough emphasis, everyone will call them by the donors name.

edit:I’m not putting the practice down because it’s smart marketing. It creates an inside language and promotes prestige whether it exists or not.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Nice Guy Eddie