Leaving Neverland (HBO Michael Jackson Documentary)

[cabowabo 4492]

I'm really disappointed at the lack of drone footage in this documentary.

[Gene Parmesan 4008]

I hope it continues to gain steam and his legacy turns to ashes, but the doc is long as hell and is kind of boring.  They certainly could have trimmed it up a bit.  Maybe the 45 minutes of drone footage at Neverland while playing ominous music wasn't necessary.

[pepper brooks 580]

so torn on this whole thing.  First and foremost there is little doubt in my mind that MJ was a pedophile.  That said, why as young adults did these men lie about it in court on one case, and then the other one lie again as a full adult to protect Michael from going to prison?  I guess it would seem they had not quite processed how wrong it was what was done to them.  maybe their defense mechanism was to believe it was real love?  Seems that way.  Stockholm syndrome or something along those line?

Then again, aside from MJ being clearly a weird dude are we inclined to believe them now with really no evidence other than their word which is clearly a 180 change from their previous sworn testimony?  I am not saying they're not credible.  They certainly appear to be.  Then again, they seemed credible with their denials for all these years.  They are skilled at lying about their relationship with Michael one way or the other.  They were very credible in their defense of him and believable when they say he did nothing.  Theyre obviously very believable in their new stories about the abuse. Again, this is not a defense of MJ.  Any grown man sleeping in the same bed every night with children is at best, demented.  He clearly paid some very handsome sums to make things go away.  There is pretty clear evidence with the kid drawing his schlong that matched up with pictures taken by LEO, censors alerting him to people approaching his room, etc.  Tons of evidence, tons of smoke, and likely a big raging fire.  I do believe these guys were abused, but gosh their wild change in tune from a legal perspective would seem to leave "doubt".  certainly many of the MJ fan boys are using the change as a way to exonerate Jackson.  the whole thing is sick no matter what.  

[Deej 76870]

Control by the abuser, shame and embarrassment, the dysfunctional nature of the relationship, low self-esteem...I think we see this all the time. The attitude of "If it was me, I'd be screaming it from the rooftops, why weren't they speaking up" is messed up. Predators prey on the weak. 

[LonghornSean 4013]

14 minutes ago, pepper brooks said:

so torn on this whole thing.  First and foremost there is little doubt in my mind that MJ was a pedophile.  That said, why as young adults did these men lie about it in court on one case, and then the other one lie again as a full adult to protect Michael from going to prison?  I guess it would seem they had not quite processed how wrong it was what was done to them.  maybe their defense mechanism was to believe it was real love?  Seems that way.  Stockholm syndrome or something along those line?

Then again, aside from MJ being clearly a weird dude are we inclined to believe them now with really no evidence other than their word which is clearly a 180 change from their previous sworn testimony?  I am not saying they're not credible.  They certainly appear to be.  Then again, they seemed credible with their denials for all these years.  They are skilled at lying about their relationship with Michael one way or the other.  They were very credible in their defense of him and believable when they say he did nothing.  Theyre obviously very believable in their new stories about the abuse. Again, this is not a defense of MJ.  Any grown man sleeping in the same bed every night with children is at best, demented.  He clearly paid some very handsome sums to make things go away.  There is pretty clear evidence with the kid drawing his schlong that matched up with pictures taken by LEO, censors alerting him to people approaching his room, etc.  Tons of evidence, tons of smoke, and likely a big raging fire.  I do believe these guys were abused, but gosh their wild change in tune from a legal perspective would seem to leave "doubt".  certainly many of the MJ fan boys are using the change as a way to exonerate Jackson.  the whole thing is sick no matter what.  

 

They lied because they felt special having a relationship with MJ and by testifying in his defense, it "excited" them to save MJ.  Especially after they had felt cast aside when MJ moved on to some other victim. Their emotional states were completely damaged and fucked up by the years of behavior and abuse, even still when they were adults in their early 20s.  They said in the doc numerous times how much they loved MJ, both when they were kids and when they were older.

 

The parallel experiences of the two victims featured in the doc and especially their similar emotional response made it extremely believable IMO.  It's all extremely fucked up though.

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

I haven't watched just DVR'd it but was Sunday part 1 and last night part 2? 

[Gene Parmesan 4008]

They were still kids during the first trial, so if you are torn on why they would lie in that situation as abused children then your head is really under a rock.  As for the second early 2000s trial, Wade was the only one that testified and the other cut ties with Jackson.  If you actually watched the documentary it clearly explains the emotions and motives as he clearly thought he had an actual relationship with Jackson.  It's almost as if being sexually abused his entire childhood kind of messed them up.

[Bogeywon 2519]

1 minute ago, JimmyHoffa said:

I haven't watched just DVR'd it but was Sunday part 1 and last night part 2? 

yes

[pepper brooks 580]

19 minutes ago, LonghornSean said:

 

They lied because they felt special having a relationship with MJ and by testifying in his defense, it "excited" them to save MJ.  Especially after they had felt cast aside when MJ moved on to some other victim. Their emotional states were completely damaged and fucked up by the years of behavior and abuse, even still when they were adults in their early 20s.  They said in the doc numerous times how much they loved MJ, both when they were kids and when they were older.

 

The parallel experiences of the two victims featured in the doc and especially their similar emotional response made it extremely believable IMO.  It's all extremely fucked up though.

agreed

[Junior Miller 1502]

16 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

They were still kids during the first trial, so if you are torn on why they would lie in that situation as abused children then your head is really under a rock.  As for the second early 2000s trial, Wade was the only one that testified and the other cut ties with Jackson.  If you actually watched the documentary it clearly explains the emotions and motives as he clearly thought he had an actual relationship with Jackson.  It's almost as if being sexually abused his entire childhood kind of messed them up.

Are you saying they grew to enjoy taking it in the booty from Jackson? 

[bamachine 1231]

Did he hang out with Culkin pre Hine Alone or post? If it was post, maybe he was afraid to do anything with him, as he was a well known kid. So Culkin might have thought he wouldn't do what he clearly did.

[Rimbo 26028]

It's really weird to go from believing that MJ was almost certainly a child predator, to in the aftermath of the trials reluctantly realizing he's been exonerated, and now this.

I'll tell you this much. MJ had a shit life. He didn't get that fucked up by having a good childhood. And that's the nicest thing I can say about the man.

[Foggy Notion 1202]

1 hour ago, bamachine said:

Did he hang out with Culkin pre Hine Alone or post? If it was post, maybe he was afraid to do anything with him, as he was a well known kid. So Culkin might have thought he wouldn't do what he clearly did.

It was right after Home Alone. I was talking to my GF about this yesterday. Did Jackson hang around with famous kids like Culkin and Feldman but not do sex stuff with them so they would defend him? Could a predator like Jackson have that much restraint? I don't know, but I think it's more likely that they were victims too.

 

1 hour ago, Rimbo said:

I'll tell you this much. MJ had a shit life. He didn't get that fucked up by having a good childhood. And that's the nicest thing I can say about the man.

He also played up his shitty childhood and used it to his advantage. In the post doc interview with Oprah, Robson talked about how Jackson had started grooming him and others before he ever met them. The Peter Pan persona, the idea that he wasn't a perv, he was just a weird dude who was robbed of his childhood so it's ok that he likes to have slumber parties with kids. That was calculated on Jackson's part.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Foggy Notion

[Bogeywon 2519]

31 minutes ago, Foggy Notion said:

It was right after Home Alone. I was talking to my GF about this yesterday. Did Jackson hang around with famous kids like Culkin and Feldman but not do sex stuff with them so they would defend him? Could a predator like Jackson have that much restraint? I don't know, but I think it's more likely that they were victims too.

 

He also played up his shitty childhood and used it to his advantage. In the post doc interview with Oprah, Robson talked about how Jackson had started grooming him and others before he ever met them. The Peter Pan persona, the idea that he wasn't a perv, he was just a weird dude who was robbed of his childhood so it's ok that he likes to have slumber parties with kids. That was calculated on Jackson's part.

My wife read Feldmans book and he said Jackson didn’t but who knows. I think he used them because they were famous and didn’t touch them so he could put them on the stand 

[Neonmoon 38130]

“Why doesn’t the person being abused just leave the abuser?” 

Time and time again, people ask this because it seems so easy to the outsider, when time and time again, we see it play out with women beaters, child molesters, kidnappers, cult followers. They are beyond brainwashed. Part of their IDENTITY is wrapped up in the abuse. As you saw with Robson’s family, it destroyed it. Their whole life was built around MJ. His career. His sisters life in America, their relationship with his mother. 

So it’s not just oh, let’s stop the abuse, it’s lets take away a lot of my life that I love. 

[David Dennison 18940]

So that was detailed.

[Bigbend1812 12928]

Holy shit was it detailed.   

[DougO 5253]

I think it's funny to see news that a lot of companies are starting to greatly reduce him from their play lists. Like this stuff is suddenly a shock to them, because they had no idea.

Judge the music for the music, the man for the man. Especially if it's way in the past. I don't care much for most of it either way, after the J5 greatness.

[Jerry Callo 8710]

14 hours ago, DougO said:

I think it's funny to see news that a lot of companies are starting to greatly reduce him from their play lists. Like this stuff is suddenly a shock to them, because they had no idea.

Judge the music for the music, the man for the man. Especially if it's way in the past. I don't care much for most of it either way, after the J5 greatness.

I turned the station yesterday when a MJ song came on.  Immediately thought about the things he was doing to those 7 and 10 year old boys.

I've known about the general allegations for years and believed he was probably a creep, but the details given in the documentary were just too real.  I haven't even watched part 2 yet.

[Augustus 3061]

Watched both episodes last night because of this thread.

For the most part, I'm speechless.

But my heart breaks for those guys.

I was married to a woman who, I later learned, was sexually abused by a step-father from age 9 to 15.  The number of ways that experience fucked her up was incalculable.

I don't know if MJ was cremated, but I'd support going Oliver Cromwell on him.  Dig him up and crucify his corpse.  Then, at the same time, I feel like his behavior may have been entirely beyond his control because no sane, rational human being behaves that way.

Tragic

[Guest Lobo]

I’ll say this about MJ, he was at least as honorable as a thousand Priests I know.  

[Augustus 3061]

I should also add, it's not uncommon at all for serial abuse victims to be made into monsters themselves.  This kind of thing can drive victims into narcissism, even psychopathy.

It's pretty amazing how the ongoing trauma these guys suffered, no matter how dysfunctional they became, never robbed them of their compassion or humanity.

 

 

 

[Player 4575]

5 hours ago, Jerry Callo said:

I turned the station yesterday when a MJ song came on.  Immediately thought about the things he was doing to those 7 and 10 year old boys.

I've known about the general allegations for years and believed he was probably a creep, but the details given in the documentary were just too real.  I haven't even watched part 2 yet.

I heard P.Y.T. on the radio yesterday - fucking hell that song is creepy now. 

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

On 3/5/2019 at 6:10 PM, Neonmoon said:

“Why doesn’t the person being abused just leave the abuser?” 

Time and time again, people ask this because it seems so easy to the outsider, when time and time again, we see it play out with women beaters, child molesters, kidnappers, cult followers. They are beyond brainwashed. Part of their IDENTITY is wrapped up in the abuse. As you saw with Robson’s family, it destroyed it. Their whole life was built around MJ. His career. His sisters life in America, their relationship with his mother. 

So it’s not just oh, let’s stop the abuse, it’s lets take away a lot of my life that I love. 

 

100%. Not to mention most kids don't have the mental capacity to realize it's wrong. That's why adults are supposed to be around to protect kids from these situations.........

[hayden_horn 11364]

Just now, JimmyHoffa said:

 

100%. Not to mention most kids don't have the mental capacity to realize it's wrong. That's why adults are supposed to be around to protect kids from these situations.........

which is why the predators go to great lengths to isolate the victims from other adults

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

Just now, hayden_horn said:

which is why the predators go to great lengths to isolate the victims from other adults

exactly. 

[tantric superman 4667]

On 3/3/2019 at 9:04 PM, GhostOfTomJoad said:

I feel nauseated.

Blame it on the Boogie.

[tantric superman 4667]

On 3/5/2019 at 9:46 AM, Gene Parmesan said:

I hope it continues to gain steam and his legacy turns to ashes,

I hope the earth goes through a portal and all of the past is erased and Prince didn't die and he and Michael Jackson are in competition to release the greatest albums ever.  And no one's a perv.

[pepper brooks 580]

Whats the difference between michael Jackson and caviar?

 

nothing. They both come on little crackers. 

[Neonmoon 38130]

I’m going to make a conscious decision to not listen to his music anymore. Will it make a difference? No. But I just can’t justify hearing his music after the details I heard in this. 

[GhostOfTomJoad 9344]

I'll tell ya this, when December rolls around I never again want to hear him sing "we are the world/we are the children." 

[Buzzrock 14936]

Yeah I won’t be watching this. Thread sealed it for me.

[phdhorn 6224]

Gonna have to re-master the song now.
"The doggone boy is mine."

[Guest Lobo]

Farleyvoice/ “so um...Paul...when Michael was fighting with you over that grown woman...that was a hoax, right?”

[Augustus 3061]

I love how the Jackson estate folks are arguing that these guys shouldn't be believed because they're admitting to perjury (by testifying on MJ's behalf earlier in the lives) and you can't trust perjurers.

Just mind boggling.

They're only perjurers IF MICHAEL ABUSED THEM.

[Rimbo 26028]

On 3/6/2019 at 3:45 PM, DougO said:

I think it's funny to see news that a lot of companies are starting to greatly reduce him from their play lists. Like this stuff is suddenly a shock to them, because they had no idea.

Judge the music for the music, the man for the man. Especially if it's way in the past. I don't care much for most of it either way, after the J5 greatness.

Like I said above -- he was exonerated in court. Found pretty substantially not guilty, by the same folks who now, in this documentary, are saying they perjured themselves to protect their relationship with him. Everyone afterwards was like "Aw, shit, I guess we misjudged him." Sort of a reverse Cosby, if you will.

[Dilligas 666]

On 3/4/2019 at 7:38 PM, Dilligas said:

I want to believe he was a sick bastard but my cynical self says these are money grubbing fucks making up stories. It would be so easy considering Jackson’s actions. Show me those videos in the closet within the closet.

Guess I have no faith in humanity anymore. If these parents let their kids stay with a grown man would they balk at lying to make millions?

Havent watched more than 30 minutes so I may be proven an idiot, but that won’t be the first time. I always thought he was that way so I’m not sure why I’m questioning it now.

Yeah I’ve got to stop drinking Whiskey and posting. Couldn’t make it through the whole thing. Those kids looked so believable in the interviews. Fuck me. And this world

[DougO 5253]

I do believe jacko was a freak and probably abused kids. But I also never trust movies as an accurate depiction of reality.

Still, if you eliminate all the good art or great deeds produced by people who were pieces of shit at some point in their lifetimes, there wouldn't be much left to enjoy.

 

[Saint Austin 745]

On 3/5/2019 at 9:13 AM, Junior Miller said:

I tried to watch yesterday but found it really boring. Maybe because 25+ years ago I had already accepted he did all this stuff so it's kind of like watching a documentary on how water is wet. 

Same. My wife really wanted to watch though, so we started it, but 20 minutes in, we were both bored with it. I don’t see myself going back and ever finishing it. 

[Surly Bevo 25098]

The great Norm MacDonald....calling it like it is

 

 

[Rip76 4946]

On 3/5/2019 at 8:52 AM, immamac said:

Wife watched it last night and came into bed saying "I'm never listening to Michael Jackson again" I just sighed and said "this all happened way before he died - what changes anything now?" "I DIDN'T KNOW HE WAS RAPING KIDS" 

What about Jackson 5?

[Parliament 14276]

3 hours ago, Surly Bevo said:

The great Norm MacDonald....calling it like it is

 

 

Norm MacDonald taking about MJ.  Instant pos rep.

[TrashMaster G 17583]

Man, Norm Macdonald didn't hold back on MJ.  Props to him.

[JimmyHoffa 1188]

6 hours ago, TrashMaster G said:

Man, Norm Macdonald didn't hold back on MJ.  Props to him.

 

Or OJ. 

[alincoln 2381]

Norm the GOAT

[alincoln 2381]

24 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

This statement is dangerously close to common myth that all abuse victims become abusers. It's a stigma that actually hurts abuse victims and diminishes reporting of abuse. Further, it decreases the chance of an abuse victims getting help due to fear of the stigma.

Here is a good discussion on it:

https://www.livingwell.org.au/managing-difficulties/addressing-the-victim-to-offender-cycle/

In short, these myths further punish victims and in many cases allow abusers behavior to go on far longer due to lack of reporting.

See Pedo State, the Catholic Church and the doc this thread is about for evidence.

Probably more accurate to say it's not uncommon at all for abusers to have been victims of abuse, which is indisputable.  Sexual abuse is definitely self-perpetuating 

[Mr. Drummond 2199]

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

50 minutes ago, alincoln said:

Probably more accurate to say it's not uncommon at all for abusers to have been victims of abuse, which is indisputable.  Sexual abuse is definitely self-perpetuating 

This a 1000 x over. 

[Buzzrock 14936]

There's another angle to this and the R Kelly documentaries. Film as a medium is incredibly powerful and can easily be used to persuade or even propagandize (Goebbels, among others, knew this), and I wonder if this trend of trial-by-documentary is going to end up having some bad consequences. In the case of R Kelly and MJ it's shining light on a couple of pretty bad people, but go check out the Making a Murderer thread. 

[Hate 20128]

12 hours ago, Buzzrock said:

There's another angle to this and the R Kelly documentaries. Film as a medium is incredibly powerful and can easily be used to persuade or even propagandize (Goebbels, among others, knew this), and I wonder if this trend of trial-by-documentary is going to end up having some bad consequences. In the case of R Kelly and MJ it's shining light on a couple of pretty bad people, but go check out the Making a Murderer thread. 

That also brings to mind the Paradise Lost documentary about the West Memphis 3.  After he first episode you are pretty much convinced the kids did it, but after you watch the next 2 of the series it becomes pretty apparent they didn't.