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Leaving Neverland (HBO Michael Jackson Documentary)

Neonmoon

By Neonmoon
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Pig Bellmont

Pig Bellmont 8719

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I don’t know how anyone can see those men describe the abuse and not believe they were genuine. Never mind all the corroborating evidence like MJ buying Jimmy’s family a house and then forgiving the mortgage after they testified in the first trial. Their stories are incredibly powerful and Michael Jackson was a fucking monster. 

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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

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9 minutes ago, Pig Bellmont said:

I don’t know how anyone can see those men describe the abuse and not believe they were genuine. Never mind all the corroborating evidence like MJ buying Jimmy’s family a house and then forgiving the mortgage after they testified in the first trial. Their stories are incredibly powerful and Michael Jackson was a fucking monster. 

My mom is a child psychologist that treats victims of sexual abuse and I asked her if she found their stories credible.  She said with almost certainty they were telling the truth and the biggest tell for her was how them having kids pushed them to come forward like this.  

Having children of their own often causes a reckoning for victims because it rearranges their perspective.  They didn’t see the real monster Michael was until they saw the vulnerability in their own kids. 

The whole Michael Jackson story is sad and awful for everyone involved.  

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Augustus

Augustus 3061

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20 hours ago, BurntEyes said:

This statement is dangerously close to common myth that all abuse victims become abusers. It's a stigma that actually hurts abuse victims and diminishes reporting of abuse. Further, it decreases the chance of an abuse victims getting help due to fear of the stigma.

Here is a good discussion on it:

https://www.livingwell.org.au/managing-difficulties/addressing-the-victim-to-offender-cycle/

In short, these myths further punish victims and in many cases allow abusers behavior to go on far longer due to lack of reporting.

See Pedo State, the Catholic Church and the doc this thread is about for evidence.

I said it's not uncommon, didn't say it's invariable.

Lots of child abusers/sexual or otherwise, were abuse victims themselves.  

A great many victims do not perpetuate the cycle, and that's really amazing to me.

 

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elnimo

elnimo 55

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What sealed it for me was that MJ used the same play book over and over again.  The sexual abuse was the same.  The seduction of the families was the same.  That's why I believe it.  Every single kid saying the same story.  I'm about 95% sure McCauley and Cory Feldman were both abused too, but won't speak out due to their careers or stockholm syndrome.

I'm also about 95% sure that MJ was abused by Jackson Sr. or some pedo version of Harvey Weinstein.  

MJ must have some iron clad NDAs because I can't imagine nobody in his crew didn't suspect what was going on.

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deech

deech 2291

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Four definite accusers.  Two more identified in the first criminal/civil lawsuit but they don't want to testify or press charges.  Six total I believe.  The maid alleges her kid was abused also, but she sold her account for money I presume.  The first accuser paid $20 million+ to make sure his claims never make it into a criminal proceeding.  Two accusers in the documentary admitted perjuring themselves in one or both of the underlying actions for various reasons.  Jackson paid off the house for Robson's parents after he testified in the first trial.  I guess this documentary is their big play for money after their lawsuit failed?  I mean Robson was pretty accomplished/successful without it.  Regardless, guy slept in the same bed with kids before and after serious allegations were made that cost him $20 million plus.  On the other hand, the accusers in this show seemed to legitimately have a huge impact on their personal lives (Robson's relationship with his Mom rightfully souring, the other guys marriage falling apart and his reluctance to testify in Trial #2).  So yeah, guilty as fuck.  

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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 29194

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18 hours ago, elnimo said:

MJ must have some iron clad NDAs because I can't imagine nobody in his crew didn't suspect what was going on.

without knowing the law, i'm pretty sure nda's don't cover this type of thing.  maybe it's "whistleblower" status, but reporting child abuse/sexual abuse/horrifying acts would likely go above and beyond protection from some legal document.  instead, i would think it's just an example of normal people getting paid a lot of money to keep their heads down and quietly go about their business.  out of sight, out of mind, as it were.

i'm more concerned about the lack of info from high profile people that were around him.  i only made it through about half of part 1, but quincy jones, george lucas, steven spielberg were all mentioned as being around (q produced a bunch of his shit).  stevie wonder was up on stage with him at one of the concerts, but i bet he didn't see a thing.

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JimmyHoffa

JimmyHoffa 1188

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18 hours ago, henrygandorf said:

without knowing the law, i'm pretty sure nda's don't cover this type of thing.  maybe it's "whistleblower" status, but reporting child abuse/sexual abuse/horrifying acts would likely go above and beyond protection from some legal document.  instead, i would think it's just an example of normal people getting paid a lot of money to keep their heads down and quietly go about their business.  out of sight, out of mind, as it were.

i'm more concerned about the lack of info from high profile people that were around him.  i only made it through about half of part 1, but quincy jones, george lucas, steven spielberg were all mentioned as being around (q produced a bunch of his shit).  stevie wonder was up on stage with him at one of the concerts, but i bet he didn't see a thing.

 

It doesn't surprise me that a lot of the high profile people didn't have info on him. Aside from finding it weird that he had a little kid that wasn't his with him on tour and around him all the time not sure how much he did as far as actual abuse or weird behavior in front of his staff and collaborations.

It's the same shit as Sandusky taking boys with him to Bowl games. Like seriously how the hell doesn't an adult (OR HIS FUCKING WIFE) find that odd.  

Your point about people being paid a lot of money to keep their heads in the sand is probably accurate. Sad but true. 

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PittsburghTiger

PittsburghTiger 6192

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Al Chesley was 13 when he says a neighborhood police officer began to sexually assault him.

Compelled by his abuser to keep the acts — and his shame — a secret, “I felt complicit,” Chesley tells PEOPLE after watching the HBO documentary Leaving Neverland. After the documentary, Chesley joined other survivors for an Oprah Winfrey special, After Neverland, which explored child sexual assault allegations against pop icon Michael Jackson with accusers Wade Robson and James Safechuck and the documentary’s director, Dan Reed.

The film has pushed through a barrier to propel the wider conversation into the open. “For too long the topics of male sexual assault and abuse have been considered socially taboo,” says Matthew Ennis, president of the advocacy and support nonprofit 1in6, named for the estimated percentage of men who experience sexual violence in their lifetime, according to the Centers for Disease Control.

For Chesley, now 61, it was a truth he hid for more than 30 years, during which he achieved fame as linebacker for the NFL’s Philadelphia Eagles who played in the 1981 Super Bowl.

Yet all the while he remained haunted. “It stunts your ability to grow, because you spend so much time with the thought of what happened, and it always plays back in your mind,” he says.

He initially knew the policeman only as “Officer Friendly,” a visible presence in Chesley’s Washington, D.C. neighborhood at high school sporting events and other activities.

Addressing the documented ritual by which abusers find and target potentially vulnerable youth, Chesley recalls, “the ‘grooming’ process for me was just [the officer] being there and being nice and interested in me, and telling me I’m special.”

 

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/ex-nfl-star-sexually-abused-191513614.html

 

I watched Al play at Pitt and he was an amazing player. He's now helping people.

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4th&Five

4th&Five 41573

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update_grey_gray_barParis Jackson was hospitalized Saturday after she attempted suicide -- and family sources tell us it's due in large to the fallout from "Leaving Neverland."

Law enforcement sources tell us police and EMS responded to Paris' LA home at 7:30 AM. We're told Michael Jackson's only daughter slit her wrists. Our sources say she was transported to a hospital and placed on 5150 hold. She's currently in stable condition

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PenelopeWitherspoon

PenelopeWitherspoon 19139

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I haven't watched the doc, nor will I. I knew during the first trial that he had definitely done it. I dont know if MJ is like Edward Norton in Primal Fear or Toni Collette in The United States of Tara. Either way, I definitely believe he was physically abused as a child, and potentially sexually abused. And as disgusting as his acts are, I find the parents of these kids to be the most despicable. They basically prostitutes their kids out.

My second point is related to SJL in the aftermath of his death. Can someone run against her and reference these gems? Hell, I'd take a reporter asking her about it in an interview!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.chron.com/entertainment/amp/Pelosi-nixes-Jackson-Lee-resolution-honoring-1742641.php

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thehill.com/homenews/news/52285-trip-to-jacksons-funeral-spurs-funding-q

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victory88

victory88 5669

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Man, fuck Michael Jackson.  That was a very difficult documentary to watch.  I refuse to listen to his music from here on out.  Fuck any DJ or radio station that plays his songs.  I don't even want to know how many other young kids were molested by him.  Also, fuck both those moms.  They knew very well what they were doing.  They liked having access to hollywood stars and living a luxury life beyond their dreams.  That one mom let her fucking son sleep in the same bed with him after meeting Michael for just 4 hours.  And then 2 days later fucking leaves him alone with Michael for a whole week.  A fucking 7 year old boy!  I feel so sorry for the boys that spoke out and were shamed.  

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Moby Ric

Moby Ric 2058

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I watched the first episode of this and was absolutely mortified.  Everyone knew what MJ was, but to the extent is insane.  He had beds hidden in rooms all over that ranch to molest kids.  And to play on these children emotions to get his way is disgusting.  And I don't care what those moms say, they knew what they were doing and basically sold their children to MJ to be sex slaves for him to live a lifestyle.  They can all burn in Hell for what they did to those kids.

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aggie08

aggie08 21513

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On 3/17/2019 at 10:19 PM, victory88 said:

Man, fuck Michael Jackson.  That was a very difficult documentary to watch.  I refuse to listen to his music from here on out.  Fuck any DJ or radio station that plays his songs.  I don't even want to know how many other young kids were molested by him.  Also, fuck both those moms.  They knew very well what they were doing.  They liked having access to hollywood stars and living a luxury life beyond their dreams.  That one mom let her fucking son sleep in the same bed with him after meeting Michael for just 4 hours.  And then 2 days later fucking leaves him alone with Michael for a whole week.  A fucking 7 year old boy!  I feel so sorry for the boys that spoke out and were shamed.  

 

14 hours ago, Moby Ric said:

I watched the first episode of this and was absolutely mortified.  Everyone knew what MJ was, but to the extent is insane.  He had beds hidden in rooms all over that ranch to molest kids.  And to play on these children emotions to get his way is disgusting.  And I don't care what those moms say, they knew what they were doing and basically sold their children to MJ to be sex slaves for him to live a lifestyle.  They can all burn in Hell for what they did to those kids.

I honestly don't mean to be a jerk, but what did you expect the molestation of multiple boys from one of the most famous people on the planet to look like? It was always going to be sick, twisted, elaborate, have multiple aiding parties, and contain a boat load of bribes, payoffs, and money to look the other way. Not a single thing surprised me.

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Neonmoon

Neonmoon 38130

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6 hours ago, aggie08 said:

 

I honestly don't mean to be a jerk, but what did you expect the molestation of multiple boys from one of the most famous people on the planet to look like? It was always going to be sick, twisted, elaborate, have multiple aiding parties, and contain a boat load of bribes, payoffs, and money to look the other way. Not a single thing surprised me.

Like many, they grew up appreciating his music. They were fans. It's hard to admit the person you loved growing up is a monster. You give them the benefit of the doubt. "He was acquitted at trial" or "those kids just want money" are rationalizations people use because they don't want to be wrong. They don't want it to be true. They don't want to admit they supported a person and his music who was raping little kids. Not until a person is faced with the actual reality, the horrible details, are they allowing themselves to admit the truth. 

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Rougarou

Rougarou 594

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Horrible. At first I was willing to allow maybe he's a sympathetic mentally ill person who was so corrupted and perverted from when he was a child that he couldn't know right from wrong, but the more detailed his attempts at subversion and manipulation, up to and including introducing porn and booze, I don't think you can say he wasn't anything but a proactive monster.

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CurlyDumps

CurlyDumps 4477

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8 hours ago, aggie08 said:

 

I honestly don't mean to be a jerk, but what did you expect the molestation of multiple boys from one of the most famous people on the planet to look like? It was always going to be sick, twisted, elaborate, have multiple aiding parties, and contain a boat load of bribes, payoffs, and money to look the other way. Not a single thing surprised me.

The details of the grooming process and acts themselves were new and startling to me. Did you know he hung out in the suburbs with his victims? That he was so close to a family, the mom considered him a son?  You knew how deep and close these relationships got?I didn’t.

 

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Guest Lobo

Guest Lobo

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I am still reminded of a witness documentary I watched about Nazi concentration camps.  There's no shortage of videos on the subject, sadly.  But this one stuck out.  She was hand selected as personal aide to the S.S. Colonel running the camp.  One day she is summoned for a special duty.  Across the tracks from the camp, as they all knew, were housing for officers; though they had never seen them in person. 

There was to be a "family-work picnic" of sorts with the German families of all camp officers and NCO's coming by train to visit their husbands/fathers/uncles/brothers.  The event was so large, they couldn't just rely on enlisted camp muscle, but brought over a few of the Jewish women who looked of good health and were smart enough not to open their mouth.  The woman recalls the event with great lucidity and describes families as you would expect them at any other work picnic---the genocidal officers were jovial.  Playing with their children, holding their wives hands, grilling sausages, drinking beer, laughing, singing, organizing games, etc.  Being completely normal family men, the ones they were in 1938 and perhaps the ones they returned to in 1946.  She said watching them order the murders of thousands of prisoners was one thing, but that picnic was when she truly knew this was all beyond the pale.  That the real monsters aren't the cold-blooded murderers of the Nazi regime, but those that were actually normal men who could somehow pivot to gross atrocities.  The real monsters don't look like monsters, they hide among us in plain sight until the opportunity avails itself and then they unleash what they are truly capable of.  It was this woman helping an officer and his daughter make lemonade that she truly sank to the bowels of hell.  

The people who rape children don't come in a windowless van with a Slayer t-shirt.  They come as a music idol, a coach, a distant relative, or in a priest's collar.  People like Michael Jackson are worse than John Wayne Gacy, IMO.  As Henry Hill tells us in Good Fellas, "They come with smiles, they come as your friends.  The people who have cared for you all of your life.  They always seem to come when you're at your weakest and most in need of their help."  

A Confidence Man doesn't need to get your confidence, he arranges it so that you try to get his.  That is what Michael Jackson, and R. Kelly, and Sandusky, and 10,000 priests have done.  Arrange it so that the parent feels like they need to do them a favor.  And so it goes, one by one, how children's lives are lost.  Because we'd rather feed the machine than defy the tradition.

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aggie08

aggie08 21513

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52 minutes ago, CurlyDumps said:

The details of the grooming process and acts themselves were new and startling to me. Did you know he hung out in the suburbs with his victims? That he was so close to a family, the mom considered him a son?  You knew how deep and close these relationships got?I didn’t.

 

I mean, obviously, I didn't know the exact details.  Just that not a single one of them surprised me in the least.  You don't get away with this kind of thing is his position without being as manipulative and devious as they come.  My disgust towards him was every bit as intense 15 years ago as it is today.

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Wally Pryor

Wally Pryor 5261

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Finished it last night.   No big surprises regarding the amount of abuse - the details were pretty vivid but I wasn't surprised at anything that unbridled piece of shit did to these kids. I think Safechuck's mom was sincere when she said she started dancing upon hearing that Jackson had died.   As she should be.  

What I wasn't aware of was the collateral damage, specifically the Robson dad. The family basically abandoned him for Jackson, subsequently he went off the deep end and sought refuge in a ladder and rope.  You  obviously feel bad for all these kids Jackson defiled but it was also really sad seeing what happened to the dad.  

Thanks for everything, MJ.

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wutang75

wutang75 449

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I kept hearing how upset people were over this documentary, like really pissed off, even after the doc aired. I couldn’t believe that could be true, so I searched “Leaving Neverland” on Twitter. Unbelievable how many idiots were defending him still and in many cases the vitriol was scary. One of the main responses I saw was something like “MJ is King, I refuse to watch that crap. #mjinnocent”. Sickening.


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Jersey Man10

Jersey Man10 3538

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I kept hearing how upset people were over this documentary, like really pissed off, even after the doc aired. I couldn’t believe that could be true, so I searched “Leaving Neverland” on Twitter. Unbelievable how many idiots were defending him still and in many cases the vitriol was scary. One of the main responses I saw was something like “MJ is King, I refuse to watch that crap. #mjinnocent”. Sickening.


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Check out YouTube lol its ridiculous
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idigTexas

idigTexas 2289

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One thing that cannot be overstated is the effect that having a child has on your perspective of your own childhood.  My personal situation does not come close to what Jackson's victims endured, but it wasn't great.  It was very easy to brush it aside until I had a child reach the age I had been.  Seeing how innocent and vulnerable a child is at that age really gets to you.

 

 

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mr. sunshine

mr. sunshine 2831

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I am profoundly sorry for any pain or misunderstanding I caused by not choosing my words more carefully about Michael Jackson and his victims,” she said in the second statement.

I guess I used to be pretty neutral as far as Babs goes but if this isn’t the epitome of horseshit I don’t know what is 

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