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16 year olds voting?

Macanudo

By Macanudo
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hpslugga

hpslugga 4044

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9 hours ago, Macanudo said:

They cant (legally) drink or join the military.   Do you seriously think 16 year olds are mature enough?

I say this with all due respect to you, but you've got to be kidding me.

People your age (and older) voted for a guy for president in 2000 because he was the guy that people wanted to have a beer with and they didn't want to vote for the guy who was the Vice President when the President was getting blown by interns, and he was re-elected in 2004 largely because they felt icky that gay people were getting married. That's "mature?"

People your age just put Donald fucking Trump in the White House. That's "mature?"

The public relations industry is absolutely dedicated, in general, to steer elections towards considering what they call "qualities," but to ignore policies. When you consider how in debt this country is, how internationally we perpetually give aid to notorious abusers of human rights, how we've systematically removed the middle class from our consciousness, among other things, it seems highly inappropriate to resist giving voting rights to people 2 years away from current legal status on the grounds of "maturity." There's nothing "mature" about what the current electorate does...at all. 

EDIT: And besides, the difference between a 16-year old and an 18-year old in terms of political intelligence is a flea's hop.

Edited by hpslugga
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Pam Cummings

Pam Cummings 9577

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5 minutes ago, Incredulity said:

Having our country’s politics infect 10th, 11th and 12th grade can’t have any negative consequences.  I can’t think of any negatives of having Sophomore D’s and Sophomore R’s at each other’s throats.

’’

Honest question, do you even think Trump can read at a high school level? 

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Js1

Js1 85104

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Posted

They're already being shot or watching their friends get shot up in schools.

I think they can vote for politicians who may (or may not) have the interest of their lives at heart.

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Js1

Js1 85104

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56 minutes ago, XYZ said:

I tried to read H.R. 1 or whatever it’s called that they voted on but it’s too fucking long. Is there any cliff notes on it?

Ban congress from sitting on corporate boards
Ban congress from using taxpayer money to settle employment lawsuits from their own staffs
Ethics code for SCOTUS
Calls for amendment to overturn citizens united
Presidential nominees and VP have to disclose 10 year of personal and business tax returns
Automatic voter registration
Restore right to vote for former felons
Mandatory 15 days of early voting for federal elections

So basically:
Democrats - dark money out of politics, transparency in finances, make voting easier, ethics
Republicans - BOOOOOO WE HATE ETHICS AND TRANSPARENCY. MAKE VOTING HARDER! 

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Macanudo

Macanudo 12926

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3 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

I stopped reading there. 

https://www.boston.com/news/politics/2019/03/06/ayanna-pressley-voting-age-16

An initial story where it the sponsor made some points for why they should be allowed (driving, working.)   

And follow up on the results.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/house-rejects-democratic-push-to-let-16-year-olds-vote

During debate on the idea, Pressley argued Congress needs to lower the voting age so "young people can have a say in federal elections."

From gun violence to climate change, our young people are organizing, mobilizing and calling us to action," she said on the House floor. "They are at the forefront of social and legislative movement and have earned inclusion in our Democracy."

Republicans disagreed and said Democrats were really trying to create more people who are likely to vote for Democrats.

"I'm of the opinion that we shouldn't arbitrarily lower the voting age just because right now, I believe Democrats think they'll gain more votes," said Rep. Rodney Davis, R-Ill. "I believe it will institutionalize a Democrat majority here in this House of Representatives."

Rep. Mark Green, R-Tenn., said on the floor about Pressley's language, "I think this is foolish."

Representative Pressley (the sponsor) brings up the gun violence as mentioned above.   Representative Davis also mentions what Turkleton said.   As for Slugga's "you all did this or that", not all of us.   And with any election shit tons of people rationalize why they vote the way they do from one election to the other.   I knew college age girls who voted for Clinton the 1st time through who did so because he as a D and that meant "he was more pro-choice" and then turned around and voted for Bush later because he was a Texan.   I know people who voted for Bush (2x) and then not only voted for Hillary, actively volunteered and campaigned for her.   It's not a one way street on how and why people vote.

Granted, sure, a significant amount of voters ARE idiots.  When we talk about average intelligence, it means half the population is BELOW that level.   And IQ is not really the whole story.   I know very high IQ people who are fucking imbeciles with no common sense or emotional intelligence.  I am not proposing a return to only letting land owners vote or having tests.   I'm saying that a 16 year old is not mature enough.   I don't think that is an unreasonable idea.  I kind of like my proposal of whether someone can claim you as a dependent (although I have no idea how that would happen in reality.)   You might be making $8,000 at your part time underwater basket weaving class while you take classes at BFE Community College but Mom and Dad still get the nice deduction (plus probably paying most of your real living expenses).   They don't have skin in the game.   The amount that's withheld from me is more than the $8,000 the 16 is paid and I'm just regular middle class.   

Hell, my 12 and 14 year old get taxed on their income from their mom.   I end up up writing checks to pay taxes at the end of the year on them.   Should they get to vote?

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Js1

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Posted

I'm ignoring your Washington Examiner post, because it may as well be straight from the RNC.  They're not an unbiased source.

Quote

Hell, my 12 and 14 year old get taxed on their income from their mom.   I end up up writing checks to pay taxes at the end of the year on them.   Should they get to vote?

No taxation without representation! 

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Macanudo

Macanudo 12926

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13 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Ban congress from sitting on corporate boards
Ban congress from using taxpayer money to settle employment lawsuits from their own staffs
Ethics code for SCOTUS
Calls for amendment to overturn citizens united
Presidential nominees and VP have to disclose 10 year of personal and business tax returns
Automatic voter registration
Restore right to vote for former felons
Mandatory 15 days of early voting for federal elections

So basically:
Democrats - dark money out of politics, transparency in finances, make voting easier, ethics
Republicans - BOOOOOO WE HATE ETHICS AND TRANSPARENCY. MAKE VOTING HARDER! 

I have ZERO problem with any of those provisions and would go a few steps further:

Ban Congress from sitting on boards (while in Congress) and for 10 years after leaving office.

Ethics code for SCOTUS plus removal from SCOTUS after X years of service and/or Y age.    I understand the need to have experience but there is no reason for justices to nearly die in office on a regular basis.   And I'll open the other can of worms....   Same thing for Congress.   You shouldn't be 80 years old and in Congress.  Or have been serving 45 years (Don Young, I'm looking at you.)   Young is 85 years old.   More than half his life has been spent as a Representative.   How many of us would trust an 85 year old grandparent with that kind of responsibility.   And spare me "We have term limits", it's called the ballot box.   Do you know why Don Young is still in the House?   Because he brings home the bacon to his Alaska constituents.   To the detriment of people in other states.   There are 63 members of the house who have been in office for 20 years or more.   The Senate?  15 of them have 20+ years experience.   Patrick Leahy has been there since 1975.    He's 79 years old and has been a Senator for more than half his life.    That's fucking insane.    

All nominees for the House, Senate or President/VP have to disclose 10 years of returns and while in office returns must be disclosed for them and significant others.   

Mandatory 30 days of early voting for all federal elections.   

I'm all for making it easier to vote and more transparent.   I'm just not sure about extending it to 16 year olds.

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Surly Bevo

Surly Bevo 24696

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Yea this is terrible this idea.  Yes plenty of adults do stupid things, especially when they get together but most don't and Lucid pretty much nailed why this is not a good plan.  Also,  people bringing Trump being elected into it is just a red herring.....yea Cheeto is a dumb fuck but there have been other decisions on who is President made by this nation that many, even most would find fault with.  Neither those nor Trump should all of a sudden be some strong argument for changing the voting age.

Personally I wish we would make 20 the age for everything.  Die for your country, vote, drink, rent a car...you name it.  Seems like a nice round number and in theory one has either entered the "real" world very recently post HS or will be in the next few years post college.  

 

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Js1

Js1 85104

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10 minutes ago, Lucid said:

"Do you remember how stupid you and all of your friends were when you were 16?"

You know it's a good idea when one simple question completely fucking sinks it.

I'd say let's look at this lucidly, but....

There's already a yuge turnout problem with 18-30 year olds.  Do you think all these 16-17 year olds are going to show up in droves? 

Turnout in the U.S. is ~55% of eligible voting age population already.  Again, not going to be HORDES of youths showing up to vote.  And there's A LOT of politically active 16-17 year olds.  Sure, a lot of kids do stupid stuff.  For every dumbass MAGA Covington kid, you have the Parkland kids actually getting people whose interests align with theirs elected.  A lot of adults do stupid stuff too, we let them vote.  We even let them be SOCTUS justices! 

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Macanudo

Macanudo 12926

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11 minutes ago, Js1 said:

I'm ignoring your Washington Examiner post, because it may as well be straight from the RNC.  They're not an unbiased source.

No taxation without representation! 

They've been taxed like that since I went back to work in 2012.   Where they ready to vote at 5 and 7?

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Js1

Js1 85104

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3 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

I have ZERO problem with any of those provisions and would go a few steps further:

Ban Congress from sitting on boards (while in Congress) and for 10 years after leaving office.

Ethics code for SCOTUS plus removal from SCOTUS after X years of service and/or Y age.    I understand the need to have experience but there is no reason for justices to nearly die in office on a regular basis.   And I'll open the other can of worms....   Same thing for Congress.   You shouldn't be 80 years old and in Congress.  Or have been serving 45 years (Don Young, I'm looking at you.)   Young is 85 years old.   More than half his life has been spent as a Representative.   How many of us would trust an 85 year old grandparent with that kind of responsibility.   And spare me "We have term limits", it's called the ballot box.   Do you know why Don Young is still in the House?   Because he brings home the bacon to his Alaska constituents.   To the detriment of people in other states.   There are 63 members of the house who have been in office for 20 years or more.   The Senate?  15 of them have 20+ years experience.   Patrick Leahy has been there since 1975.    He's 79 years old and has been a Senator for more than half his life.    That's fucking insane.    

All nominees for the House, Senate or President/VP have to disclose 10 years of returns and while in office returns must be disclosed for them and significant others.   

Mandatory 30 days of early voting for all federal elections.   

I'm all for making it easier to vote and more transparent.   I'm just not sure about extending it to 16 year olds.

Oh I'm 100% on kicking the geriatrics off SCOTUS and out of Congress.  All of them.  

I say let 16-17 year olds vote in local and municipal elections NOW.  Get them engaged early, if you can't stomach them voting in state and federal elections. 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

I'd say let's look at this lucidly, but....

There's already a yuge turnout problem with 18-30 year olds.  Do you think all these 16-17 year olds are going to show up in droves? 

Turnout in the U.S. is ~55% of eligible voting age population already.  Again, not going to be HORDES of youths showing up to vote.  And there's A LOT of politically active 16-17 year olds.  Sure, a lot of kids do stupid stuff.  For every dumbass MAGA Covington kid, you have the Parkland kids actually getting people whose interests align with theirs elected.  A lot of adults do stupid stuff too, we let them vote.  We even let them be SOCTUS justices! 

Yeah,  no, hell no.  At 16 you can barely drive a friggin' car.

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Macanudo

Macanudo 12926

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Is CNN mainstream enough?    The Examiner article was still factual.   You're being argumentative for the sake of arguing on that bullshit.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/09/opinions/let-teens-vote-ayanna-pressley-berlatsky/index.html

Massachusetts Rep. Ayanna Pressley is trying to change that. Last week she introduced an amendment to a voting rights bill to lower the voting age from 18 to 16. "From gun violence to climate change, our young people are organizing, mobilizing and calling us to action," she argued. "They are at the forefront of social and legislative movements and have earned inclusion in our democracy."
Democrats narrowly supported the measure, but Republicans voted against it en masse, and it was defeated. That was a mistake. Young people need and deserve the right to vote -- and the country would be stronger if they had it.
 
 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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Just now, Macanudo said:

Is CNN mainstream enough?    The Examiner article was still factual.   You're being argumentative for the sake of arguing on that bullshit.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/09/opinions/let-teens-vote-ayanna-pressley-berlatsky/index.html

 

 

JS1 (hands over ears)  screaming nananananananananananananananananananananananana I can't hear you....

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Js1

Js1 85104

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7 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Is CNN mainstream enough?    The Examiner article was still factual.   You're being argumentative for the sake of arguing on that bullshit.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/09/opinions/let-teens-vote-ayanna-pressley-berlatsky/index.html

 

 

Okay, and it was defeated and not included in HR1.  Moving on. 

You're being pissy about something that wasn't even in the final bill because...………………………………………?????
Do you normally spend time on message boards arguing about bill amendments that don't pass? 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Okay, and it was defeated and not included in HR1.  Moving on. 

You're being pissy about something that wasn't even in the final bill because...………………………………………?????
Do you normally spend time on message boards arguing about bill amendments that don't pass? 

Do always get so butt hurt when your party gets called out for proposing dumb ass legislation designed to game the voting ?

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Js1

Js1 85104

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5 minutes ago, Macanudo said:

Are you normally such an asshole?   Then my answer is yes.

Ok, Donald Trump Jr. with your bullshit about how you tax your 5 and 7 year olds. 

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Js1

Js1 85104

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3 minutes ago, Bookman said:

16 is too young to vote.

But then again, they are being killed in classrooms and politicians don't care enough to do anything about it.

Well you see, 16 is perfectly acceptable to go to school one morning and never come home.

BUT DONT YOU CARE THINK THEY GET TO EXERCISE THEIR OPINION ABOUT ANYTHING because some old Boomer might get upset that kids want to vote for their futures, while the old people vote for the "right now" with no fucking care for the future. 

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Macanudo

Macanudo 12926

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5 minutes ago, gmr548 said:

Impressive concern troll by OP.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 

Seriously?   Why is this a troll post?   It's worth a discussion when members of Congress propose changing voting dynamics.  

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Tom

Tom 2959

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Lowering the voting age is a bad idea.  Creating a maximum voting age around 65-70 is a great idea.  You shouldn't get to vote for policy that will affect generations to come when you're about to leave the world. 

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Tom

Tom 2959

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28 minutes ago, formermav43 said:

Surly really hates “old” people (and 65 is not old).

 

I don't hate "old" people, but the average life expectancy in the U.S. is 78 years old.  13 years between getting Medicare and SS and when you statistically are expected to die.  Sorry, but that's old. God bless you if you're some outlier who's 68 and runs marathons and deadlifts trucks and has another 30-40 years in front of you, but you're still old generally speaking.

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Chrispy

Chrispy 132

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3 hours ago, Incredulity said:

Having our country’s politics infect 10th, 11th and 12th grade can’t have any negative consequences.  I can’t think of any negatives of having Sophomore D’s and Sophomore R’s at each other’s throats.

’’

Throw in teachers lobbying for their preferred candidate, ugh what a disaster. 

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