Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crashes killing 157

[MrPhlegm 3413]

It’s not. He just doesn’t know of what he speaks. 

Lulz.

If you can't keep the plane from flying itself into the ground by following the procedure provided by the manufacturer then it is overly complicated.

It is a shit system. Defective. Piss poor design. The analysts, designers, coders, and their management that built this killer system should commit seppuku. It is the only honorable thing to do.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/aviation/how-the-boeing-737-max-disaster-looks-to-a-software-developer.amp.html

As someone who has 40+ years of experience building and maintaining complicated software systems I don't fly Airbus and will not fly any 737 max.

[MrPhlegm 3413]

Flying the airplane is an overly complicated procedure?  The six steps in a stab trim runaway is over complicated? I can post of picture of that if you’d like. You’d probably like to retract that statement after viewing it. 
Talking out of your ass may be why you seem like such an asshole.  
 

Seem? I am an asshole. Especially when dealing with arrogant clowns that don't have a fucking clue about defective system design.

But keep thowing bananas.

[Pasken 1309]

4 hours ago, Longhorn Al said:

Yep. In a tournament. Not bad, eh?

 

1 hour ago, MrPhlegm said:

Lulz.

If you can't keep the plane from flying itself into the ground by following the procedure provided by the manufacturer then it is overly complicated.


 

 

They could not get the procedure to work because they were flying the airplane faster than the airspeed at which the aircraft was certified to operate. There was nothing wrong with the engines. They could have easily slowed down and then the procedure would have worked. That would have been much smarter than turning back on the system that they knew was getting mismatching information.

[Homercles 10206]

Forget it guys, it’s phlegm.

[Brisketexan 105309]

Phlegm isn't wrong.

We have direct evidence that the procedure was "overly complicated" for at least two flight crews.  That's two too many.  "Complicated" is a sliding scale.  I don't care if it's too complicated for a trained hamster -- they don't fly planes.  I care if it is too complicated for an actual flight crew, under actual flight conditions.  Twice.

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

25 minutes ago, Homercles said:

Forget it guys, it’s phlegm.

What he's saying isn't wrong. Creating life threatening coding issues within an engineered system is pretty much the last thing you want to do when peoples lives are involved.

[ChickenSandwich 9850]

1 hour ago, Pasken said:

 

 

They could not get the procedure to work because they were flying the airplane faster than the airspeed at which the aircraft was certified to operate. There was nothing wrong with the engines. They could have easily slowed down and then the procedure would have worked. That would have been much smarter than turning back on the system that they knew was getting mismatching information.

If nothing else changes (vacuum) and they continue flying at that airspeed they would have crashed or broken up as well? (Regardless of the MACS issue)

[Armybrat 40892]

I thought the purpose of software development was to dumb it down to make it lowest common denominator/user-friendly.

[Surly Bevo 25143]

Yea Phlegm has moments of lucidity and this is one.  If you start with the very basic premise that the systems and automation in planes is largely there to eliminate the mistakes the human element bring to the table then with that end in mind any system that is designed in such a way that brings the chance for more mistakes into the fray seems fundamentally flawed.  

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Just now, Armybrat said:

I thought the purpose of software development was to dumb it down to make it lowest common denominator/user-friendly.

Well yes,  in every industry except commercial aviation apparently.

[XYZ 2154]

NOBODY is claiming that the system is not flawed. Y’all are tilting at windmills. Or something.

[Pasken 1309]

2 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

If nothing else changes (vacuum) and they continue flying at that airspeed they would have crashed or broken up as well? (Regardless of the MACS issue)

According to the black box data, they were in a stable situation until they turned the system back on. They were not losing altitude. It would be different if they were hurling toward the earth but they were not. 

[Surly Bevo 25143]

6 minutes ago, XYZ said:

NOBODY is claiming that the system is not flawed. Y’all are tilting at windmills. Or something.

Nobody says a lot of things outright, they insinuate....it's a nuance that some people seem incapable of grasping.  

 

It's like you saying to your wife, "that looks nice, but you sure you want to wear that out tonight"?

 

How the fuck do you think that goes over?

Edited April 19, 2019 by Surly Bevo

[Eskimohorn 5642]

 
They could not get the procedure to work because they were flying the airplane faster than the airspeed at which the aircraft was certified to operate. There was nothing wrong with the engines. They could have easily slowed down and then the procedure would have worked. That would have been much smarter than turning back on the system that they knew was getting mismatching information.

Did that happen with the first crash or second crash?

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, Eskimohorn said:

 

Did that happen with the first crash or second crash?

 

The second. 

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

4 hours ago, Surly Bevo said:

Nobody says a lot of things outright, they insinuate....it's a nuance that some people seem incapable of grasping.  

 

It's like you saying to your wife, "that looks nice, but you sure you want to wear that out tonight"?

 

How the fuck do you think that goes over?

Except that no one is insinuating anything. Everyone has said that the single sourced system option with no comparator is f’d up. There’s no nuance to it.  

The nuance missed by our engineering friends is that two completely flyable airplanes (engines, flight controls and manual trim)crashed when their crews quit flying them. But they’ve worked on shit so they know how airplanes work. 

[Surly Bevo 25143]

6 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Except that no one is insinuating anything. Everyone has said that the single sourced system option with no comparator is f’d up. There’s no nuance to it.  

The nuance missed by our engineering friends is that two completely flyable airplanes (engines, flight controls and manual trim)crashed when their crews quit flying them. But they’ve worked on shit so they know how airplanes work. 

Sure....

 

[Hanrahan 1306]

I find you guys arguing with pilots about things you know nothing about adorable. The information gap is staggering.

[Surly Bevo 25143]

2 minutes ago, Hanrahan said:

I find you guys arguing with pilots about things you know nothing about adorable. The information gap is staggering.

Yea they're like all the Wall Street experts who had the market cornered on all the information...how did that go?  

There is sometimes a blind arrogance that comes with being an expert...but I'm sure nothing like that ever happens in the aviation world.  

Edited April 20, 2019 by Surly Bevo

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

2 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

Yea they're like all the Wall Street experts who had the market cornered on all the information...how did that go?  

There is sometimes a blind arrogance that comes with being an expert...but I'm sure nothing like that ever happens in the aviation world.  

Yeah, uh there’s no arrogance in saying that the system was f’d up, the certification was f’d up, the purchase was f’d up and the pilot response was f’d up. Nor is it arrogant to point out that the pilots screwed up their portion pretty royally. Something I’m quite qualified to talk about. 

[Surly Bevo 25143]

5 minutes ago, Bobby_Batronic said:

Yeah, uh there’s no arrogance in saying that the system was f’d up, the certification was f’d up, the purchase was f’d up and the pilot response was f’d up. Nor is it arrogant to point out that the pilots screwed up their portion pretty royally. Something I’m quite qualified to talk about. 

So what are you even arguing with because pretty sure nobody has said the pilots did or didn't fuck up just that the system that put them in that situation seems poorly designed.  So in your expert, professional opinion would you agree that the pilots should have been put in that situation as a matter of the way the system was designed yes or no?   

Edited April 20, 2019 by Surly Bevo

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

8 hours ago, MrPhlegm said:

Lulz.

If you can't keep the plane from flying itself into the ground by following the procedure provided by the manufacturer then it is overly complicated.

It is a shit system. Defective. Piss poor design. The analysts, designers, coders, and their management that built this killer system should commit seppuku. It is the only honorable thing to do.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/aviation/how-the-boeing-737-max-disaster-looks-to-a-software-developer.amp.html

As someone who has 40+ years of experience building and maintaining complicated software systems I don't fly Airbus and will not fly any 737 max.
 

Well, asshole, the Lion Air crew didn’t follow the procedure at all. The Captain electrically retrimmed the airplane 21 times which is 21 times too many if the stab trim is cut out. He then handed the plane over to the first officer who never trimmed at all and the plane crashed when control forces became too great to overcome. So that blows up your complicated procedure bullshit right there. 

But allow me to continue. Here is the overly complicated response to a trim runaway in a 737. One of only 4 procedures found on the Quick Reference Card in the plane:

 

Runaway Stabilizer

 

 

1. CONTROL COLUMN - HOLD FIRMLY

    

2. AUTOPILOT (if engaged) - DISENGAGE

   Do not re-engage the autopilot. Control airplane pitch attitude manually with control column and main electric trim as needed

   If the Runaway Continues

    

3. STAB TRIM CUTOUT SWITCHES (both) - CUTOUT

   If the Runaway Continues

    

4. STABILIZER TRIM WHEEL - GRASP and HOLD

 

There it is. In all of its complicated glory. The SWA version adds two more steps. Those being to trim manually and to anticipate trim requirements.  The Ethiopian crew tried to engage the autopilot, re-engaged the electric trim and grossly exceeded the speed limitation on the plane. So, no, they didn’t follow a complex procedure to a T. They didn’t follow it and it killed them. More importantly, both crews failed to fly the plane. One with operable manual trim, engines, flight controls and instrumentation on one side. I’m not saying it’s easy. But this wasn’t the no win scenario. 

And you keep coming at this as though I don’t think the system is f’d. Which is odd because I’ve stated so numerous times in the thread just as I’ve stated some airmanship likely saves the day. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Bobby_Batronic

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

27 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

So what are you even arguing with because pretty sure nobody has said the pilots did or didn't fuck up just that the system that put them in that situation seems poorly designed.  So in your expert, professional opinion would you agree that the pilots should have been put in that situation as a matter of the way the system was designed yes or no?   

Sure. They were put in a bad spot by poor design, certification and purchase choices.  At the beginning of this thread I didn’t know that the system was allowed to be single sourced with no comparator.  The Airbus is triple sourced by comparison.

But once the error had happened both crews knew the left side airspeed was at fault. The Ethiopian crew even called out “left AOA vane”. Swapping pilot flying duties after running the  appropriate checklist or using the Air data backup would usually have been advised. However this was sorta done in the Lion Air crash and the FO never trimmed the pressure off the yoke, and the Ethiopian FO probably preflighted a tug on the way to the plane he was so green. But the planes were flyable until allowed to not be so. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Bobby_Batronic

[happyfunball 481]

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

Frame that with unionized workers trying to apply pressure during contract negotiations, and it gets a bit less terrifying. 

[XYZ 2154]

Batronic: Boeing fucked up

Surly: ...

Batronic: the FAA fucked up

Surly: ...

Batronic: the airlines fucked up

Surly: ...

Batronic: the pilots also fucked up

Surly: YOU FUCKING ASSHOLE!!?!

[Eskimohorn 5642]

I find you guys arguing with pilots about things you know nothing about adorable. The information gap is staggering.

 

Greg Davis could run circles around all of us explaining his offense. But it doesn’t mean we can’t be upset when Oregon cornerbacks admit we tipped plays, or that Washington State knew they could blitz us every play, or that OU could dictate we dump a play off to Greg Smith for an automatic 3rd down stop. Shoot, Shawn Watson knows his shit.

 

The two plane crashes are like Shawn Watson calling 7-step drops with Camrhon Hughes playing right tackle and giving him no help. Sure Hughes doesn’t even touch a guy, but it’s Watson’s responsibility for planning an offense that yields 59 yards for the entire game. Boeing is Shawn Watson. Camrhon Hughes are the two sets of pilots.

 

It’s mostly irrelevant to focus the blame on bad piloting when that is a known quantity around the world. Just like good OC’s can mitigate weaknesses with scheme and play design, Boeing has a moral imperative to ensure that the known quantity of mediocre piloting would not get people killed repeatedly.

 

And, fuck if Boeing didnt fight from getting their planes grounded after the 2nd crash or securing regulatory control or finding loopholes around quality controls. All this with the knowledge of shaky piloting and lackluster training and communication. This cannot happen. You know your right tackle cannot always pass protect.

[XYZ 2154]

NOBODY is focusing on bad piloting.

[Surly Bevo 25143]

6 minutes ago, XYZ said:

NOBODY is focusing on bad piloting.

Except every post by a few people that goes into great detail of what they did wrong and what they should have done...other than that you are 100% right.  

 

Or maybe it's just an intense desire to show off piloting knowledge (which is fine by the way but doesn't really address the root cause of this particular shitstorm it appears and in the way it is often framed seems to be more of the focus than the actual root cause)

Edited April 20, 2019 by Surly Bevo

[Surly Bevo 25143]

Also, make a fucking argument Al Michaels...or are you just here for play by play?

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

Let's put additional life threatening issues in front of our pilots so they can show how good they are at that cool pilot shit they do.....

Edited April 20, 2019 by Onboard 2.0

[Surly Bevo 25143]

3 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Let's put additional life threatening issues in front of our pilots so they can show now good they are at that cool pilot shit they do.....

C'mon Mav, do some of that pilot shit

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

53 minutes ago, Surly Bevo said:

Except every post by a few people that goes into great detail of what they did wrong and what they should have done...other than that you are 100% right.  

 

Or maybe it's just an intense desire to show off piloting knowledge (which is fine by the way but doesn't really address the root cause of this particular shitstorm it appears and in the way it is often framed seems to be more of the focus than the actual root cause)

I’ve said repeatedly in the thread that I’ve addressed the piloting  issues because that’s where my expertise lies. I’ve also said that it’s easy to Monday morning quarterback this kind of thing. 

And it’s not an intense desire to show off aviation knowledge either. The truth is that most of the posters are woefully uninformed on the subject matter and have a few professionals in the field explaining it to them. But that’s seen as showing out or some kind of ego trip when a professional giving tax advice, or divorce tips or chola dating secrets is just seen as sharing info. Or knowing basic pitch and power is seen as thinking you’re astronaut ready. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Bobby_Batronic

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

1 hour ago, Eskimohorn said:

 

Greg Davis could run circles around all of us explaining his offense. But it doesn’t mean we can’t be upset when Oregon cornerbacks admit we tipped plays, or that Washington State knew they could blitz us every play, or that OU could dictate we dump a play off to Greg Smith for an automatic 3rd down stop. Shoot, Shawn Watson knows his shit.

 

The two plane crashes are like Shawn Watson calling 7-step drops with Camrhon Hughes playing right tackle and giving him no help. Sure Hughes doesn’t even touch a guy, but it’s Watson’s responsibility for planning an offense that yields 59 yards for the entire game. Boeing is Shawn Watson. Camrhon Hughes are the two sets of pilots.

 

It’s mostly irrelevant to focus the blame on bad piloting when that is a known quantity around the world. Just like good OC’s can mitigate weaknesses with scheme and play design, Boeing has a moral imperative to ensure that the known quantity of mediocre piloting would not get people killed repeatedly.

 

And, fuck if Boeing didnt fight from getting their planes grounded after the 2nd crash or securing regulatory control or finding loopholes around quality controls. All this with the knowledge of shaky piloting and lackluster training and communication. This cannot happen. You know your right tackle cannot always pass protect.

An interesting analogy as the 7 step drop with NCAA manning right tackle and Swoopes turning his back on the defense is an example that I often use to show the jimmy’s and joe’s trumps x’s and o’s Fanboys just how stupid Shawn Watson was/is, and that you can have bad personal while still putting them in positions to fail even worse.  And much like that example you need both talent and design to succeed at a high level. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Bobby_Batronic

[retread 2951]

This video was posted several pages back. Thought it was good. He has several on his youtube channel.

 

[ChickenSandwich 9850]

I can fly. I’m a pilot. 

[retread 2951]

Another video from the same guy as above. Gives the thought process for dealing w runaway stabilizer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xixM_cwSLcQ

 

[Pato del Muerto 52584]

Why even have pilots in there if they can’t perform some tasks?

just because one or more crews did not fix their problem correct does not mean that the fix is the problem. 

Every action on an airplane, I’m assuming here, has a way to perform it manually if needed. Those guys are in there to be able to do those things, and they train in very realistic simulators in order to be ready and able to execute things, fly the plane as Bobby keeps saying, under the highest of stress conditions. 

 

If he accelerator on a car sticks like the issue toyota had not long ago, there are things the driver should do.  Turn the car off or put it in neutral, etc. 

just because some didn’t do that doesn’t mean it’s too complicated. 

[ShaggyBevo RIP 3868]

On 4/19/2019 at 8:50 PM, Hanrahan said:

I find you guys arguing with pilots about things you know nothing about adorable. The information gap is staggering.

So, is the pilots unwillingness to admit it is a flawed design. 

[XYZ 2154]

4 minutes ago, ShaggyBevo RIP said:

So, is the pilots unwillingness to admit it is a flawed design. 

That’s hilarious, because the surly pilots have been saying that the design is flawed on pretty much every post.

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

31 minutes ago, ShaggyBevo RIP said:

So, is the pilots unwillingness to admit it is a flawed design. 

Posts 766, 770, 772 and 773 on this page alone....

 

[DaysOff 7971]

This video was posted several pages back. Thought it was good. He has several on his youtube channel.
 

MCAS is not an anti stall device. It's a feel unit to give similar handling characteristics of the previous NG models.

Part of the problem with the 737 is that it is the entry aircraft for new hires around the world to their narrow body fleets. It's current form is not a starter airplane for someone with no exposure to swept winged transports. Lion FO never trimmed. ET FO was along for the ride. He'd be more useful serving diet cokes in the back at 200 hours.

[Hanrahan 1306]

So, is the pilots unwillingness to admit it is a flawed design. 

Your sentence structure is almost as pitiful as your ability to read the thread before puking up malformed opinions.

[Bullneck 19206]

Dropping in on page 16.  I follow "Ask the Pilot" and from what he says it was sad how complicated/unusual the right maneuver to have save that plane was.  

Edited April 21, 2019 by Bullneck

[Surly Bevo 25143]

Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crashes killing 157

Bobby_Batronic replied to Nueces River Rat's topic in Daily Texan

Incorrect. MCAS didn’t kill two planes worth of people. Pilots failing to react to an inadvertent nose down pitch input correctly as per their MEMORY ITEMS, killed two planes worth of people

 

 

 

 

Congratulations, you took information, made a split second decision without fully knowing all the facts in a limited amount of time and just killed Surly.

 

The Pentagon would like to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid.  

Edited April 21, 2019 by Surly Bevo

[PilotsError 2320]

Did a pilot fuck some of your wives?

[Bobby_Batronic 1994]

5 hours ago, Surly Bevo said:

Ethiopian Airlines 737 Max crashes killing 157

Bobby_Batronic replied to Nueces River Rat's topic in Daily Texan

Incorrect. MCAS didn’t kill two planes worth of people. Pilots failing to react to an inadvertent nose down pitch input correctly as per their MEMORY ITEMS, killed two planes worth of people

 

 

 

 

Congratulations, you took information, made a split second decision without fully knowing all the facts in a limited amount of time and just killed Surly.

 

The Pentagon would like to inform you that your sons are dead because they were stupid.  

Well, since the Ethiopian crew didn’t in fact follow their memory items, you know the ones I posted for you to see, I fail to see what you can’t grasp. 

[Pato del Muerto 52584]

8 hours ago, PilotsError said:

Did a pilot fuck some of your wives?

Username alignment 

[JimmyJames 12271]

On 4/20/2019 at 1:28 PM, Bobby_Batronic said:

Frame that with unionized workers trying to apply pressure during contract negotiations, and it gets a bit less terrifying. 

Dang. Sure does seem like you work for Boeing or something. First its the pilots fault the shitty designed plane crashed into the ground, twice, now its the unions just applying pressure during contract negotiations? Boeing management should hire you to be their spokesman.  

And I can’t believe I’m agreeing with onboard here. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by JimmyJames

[El Diablo 4232]

18 hours ago, Bullneck said:

Dropping in on page 16.  I follow "Ask the Pilot" and from what he says it was sad how complicated/unusual the right maneuver to have save that plane was.  

My limited understanding is that they needed to flip a switch and fly the plane themselves. I may have oversimplified that.